Ex-FSU QB punches woman, self defense?

hawknation2015 · Jul 15, 2015

[youtube]ubpZI2pDuj8[/youtube]

Florida State quarterback De'Andre Johnson was dismissed from the university this week after being caught on camera punching a woman in a bar. He claims this was done in self defense.

You can see Johnson trying to push passed the woman to get to the front of the bar. The woman appears to turn around to tell him to stop, but he continues elbowing his way forward. She gets upset, turns around to yell at him, and cocks her fist. He very stupidly grabs her hand, which upsets her more. After about four seconds of not letting go of her arm, she tries in vein to knee him and then attempts to strike him with her free hand. He hesitates for a second, while continuing to hold her arm, and then punches her in the nose with a close fist and runs away.

IMO, he instigated the fight by continuing to push forward toward the bar and then grabbing her, and his use of force was disproportionate to the threat posed by this woman and more than necessary to defend himself. What say you?

kobebryant · Jul 15, 2015

His use of force was excessive, and a man should never swing on a woman unless he is seriously in fear for his well-being and has a legitimate case of self defense (I do believe that these situations can occur).

This was not one of those situations and the dismissal from the program is warranted.

Further though, if she is an FSU student, she should be facing expulsion/suspension from school as well, as I would have to believe that swinging on another student and (allegedly) using racist language goes against the student code of conduct.

Both are in the wrong. But he should have walked away before it escalated.

hawknation2015 · Jul 15, 2015

kobebryant":3ov3jivz said:
His use of force was excessive, and a man should never swing on a woman unless he is seriously in fear for his well-being and has a legitimate case of self defense (I do believe that these situations can occur).

This was not one of those situations and the dismissal from the program is warranted.

Further though, if she is an FSU student, she should be facing expulsion/suspension from school as well, as I would have to believe that swinging on another student and (allegedly) using racist language goes against the student code of conduct.

Both are in the wrong. But he should have walked away before it escalated.

I don't see anything from the video to warrant punishing the victim. Her attempted use of force was a proportionate effort to get him to release her arm. It didn't look like there was much power on that swing, and she missed anyway. If it can be proven that she instigated the fight by using fighting words, i.e. called him the N-word, then maybe some kind of discipline would be appropriate.

DTexHawk · Jul 16, 2015

hawknation2015":2iyiwddl said:
If it can be proven that she instigated the fight by using fighting words, i.e. called him the N-word, then maybe some kind of discipline would be appropriate.

I am unaware of any words that allow assault to be the response.
BWDIK.

hawknation2015 · Jul 16, 2015

DTexHawk":uxcvsnkh said:
hawknation2015":uxcvsnkh said:

If it can be proven that she instigated the fight by using fighting words, i.e. called him the N-word, then maybe some kind of discipline would be appropriate.

Click to expand...

I am unaware of any words that allow assault to be the response.
BWDIK.

You should take a brief course on constitutional law. Fighting words are expressed to incite hatred or violence from their target, and they are not protected by the First Amendment. . . . hence FSU might be allowed to punish her for inciting the confrontation if they found that she had used fighting words.

In terms of "allow assault to be the response" . . . No, it is in no way a defense to assault. He would still be punished, even if the victim was found to have used fighting words.

kobebryant · Jul 16, 2015

DTexHawk":2y7bd9fg said:
hawknation2015":2y7bd9fg said:

If it can be proven that she instigated the fight by using fighting words, i.e. called him the N-word, then maybe some kind of discipline would be appropriate.

Click to expand...

I am unaware of any words that allow assault to be the response.
BWDIK.

No one is saying that any words should result in the assault of a woman.

The thought that I initially posited was that if it can be proven that she used racially hateful language, and if she is an FSU student, then she also may be subject to discipline as that could very well violate the student code of conduct at her school.

hawknation2015 · Jul 16, 2015

kobebryant":8enx5edt said:
DTexHawk":8enx5edt said:

hawknation2015":8enx5edt said:

If it can be proven that she instigated the fight by using fighting words, i.e. called him the N-word, then maybe some kind of discipline would be appropriate.

Click to expand...

I am unaware of any words that allow assault to be the response.
BWDIK.

Click to expand...

No one is saying that any words should result in the assault of a woman.

The thought that I initially posited was that if it can be proven that she used racially hateful language, and if she is an FSU student, then she also may be subject to discipline as that could very well violate the student code of conduct at her school.

As a public school, FSU could not prohibit merely using the N-word or other hate speech. The Supreme Court (Scalia opinion) has struck down laws that single out racist speech -- in that case, it was a law that made it a crime to burn a cross on someone's lawn with the intent to arouse resentment in others on the basis of race. The use of the N-word would actually have to be "fighting words," likely to incite a verbal or physical confrontation by a reasonable person.

jammerhawk · Jul 17, 2015

He punched his way out of professional football.

Donk70 · Jul 17, 2015

She doubled up her fist and punched him 1st. This may be a unpopular opinion, but if she's going to come at him like a man then she shouldn't be surprised if he treats her like a man. Too many women beat on guys knowing the social norm is against hitting women. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone fighting of any sort, but if women want true equality across the board, then they shouldn't hide behind the "a true man should never hit a woman" mantra. And yes, I know there are douche bags who think they're big and tough by beating on women. Those guys should and are dealt with in a court of law.

Scottemojo · Jul 19, 2015

Expel both, charge both with disorderly conduct. Give them a year to prove they have their shit together and reapply for school. No scholarships this time for the QB, see how bad he really wants it.

hawknation2015 · Jul 19, 2015

Scottemojo":bqqk7mvl said:
Expel both, charge both with disorderly conduct. Give them a year to prove they have their shit together and reapply for school. No scholarships this time for the QB, see how bad he really wants it.

Yeah, I don't see any definitive evidence in this video that suggests the victim should be charged or expelled.

She initially reacted to being pushed/elbowed, and only swung defensively after her arm was grabbed and not released.

Scottemojo · Jul 20, 2015

hawknation2015":28tcouoi said:
Scottemojo":28tcouoi said:

Expel both, charge both with disorderly conduct. Give them a year to prove they have their shit together and reapply for school. No scholarships this time for the QB, see how bad he really wants it.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't see any definitive evidence in this video that suggests the victim should be charged or expelled.

She initially reacted to being pushed/elbowed, and only swung defensively after her arm was grabbed and not released.

Probably.
I just have little tolerance for when people escalate situations in a poor setting. I would bet that that particular college bar has lots of things go down all the time, the police probably have their own parking spot right up front. So when the story begins, I was at this bar, just minding my own business, when...I then want to interrupt and say what is the rep of that bar? You chose to be where?

She had alternatives. Yell for security. Do anything but escalate by making a fist and swinging at a drunk idiot way bigger than you.

I have been there. I was in a college bar by the U of U in Salt Lake City a long time ago. (see, I'm not just and old ass dude spouting hypotheticals.) Tables were in short supply, and a voice from behind and in my ear said to get the eff out of my chair! I turned around just like that lady at FSU, pissed, only to see the biggest U of U Samoan/Polynesian I had ever seen, and he seemed already pretty boozed up, he was most assuredly an offensive lineman for the Utes, and my desire to escalate vaporized. He got his chair, and my face stayed the same as when I walked in.

Different situations, I know. But there were choices besides escalating things with a drunk dumbass twice your size in a bar.

Hopefully the people who know more of the context than even the video will make the right choices with the future of both people in this case.

hawknation2015 · Jul 20, 2015

Scottemojo":ufu2uw3n said:
hawknation2015":ufu2uw3n said:

Scottemojo":ufu2uw3n said:

Expel both, charge both with disorderly conduct. Give them a year to prove they have their shit together and reapply for school. No scholarships this time for the QB, see how bad he really wants it.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't see any definitive evidence in this video that suggests the victim should be charged or expelled.

She initially reacted to being pushed/elbowed, and only swung defensively after her arm was grabbed and not released.

Click to expand...

Probably.
I just have little tolerance for when people escalate situations in a poor setting. I would bet that that particular college bar has lots of things go down all the time, the police probably have their own parking spot right up front. So when the story begins, I was at this bar, just minding my own business, when...I then want to interrupt and say what is the rep of that bar? You chose to be where?

She had alternatives. Yell for security. Do anything but escalate by making a fist and swinging at a drunk idiot way bigger than you.

I have been there. I was in a college bar by the U of U in Salt Lake City a long time ago. (see, I'm not just and old ass dude spouting hypotheticals.) Tables were in short supply, and a voice from behind and in my ear said to get the eff out of my chair! I turned around just like that lady at FSU, pissed, only to see the biggest U of U Samoan/Polynesian I had ever seen, and he seemed already pretty boozed up, he was most assuredly an offensive lineman for the Utes, and my desire to escalate vaporized. He got his chair, and my face stayed the same as when I walked in.

Different situations, I know. But there were choices besides escalating things with a drunk dumbass twice your size in a bar.

Hopefully the people who know more of the context than even the video will make the right choices with the future of both people in this case.

I would agree with you, but also have to point that acting less than reasonably does not always amount to a punishable act.

Seahawks1983 · Jul 20, 2015

Donk70":utons1e6 said:
She doubled up her fist and punched him 1st. This may be a unpopular opinion, but if she's going to come at him like a man then she shouldn't be surprised if he treats her like a man. Too many women beat on guys knowing the social norm is against hitting women. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone fighting of any sort, but if women want true equality across the board, then they shouldn't hide behind the "a true man should never hit a woman" mantra. And yes, I know there are douche bags who think they're big and tough by beating on women. Those guys should and are dealt with in a court of law.

You sir, are a real piece of work. You may want to seek counseling.

kearly · Jul 20, 2015

Seahawks1983":ga9ek0h8 said:
Donk70":ga9ek0h8 said:

She doubled up her fist and punched him 1st. This may be a unpopular opinion, but if she's going to come at him like a man then she shouldn't be surprised if he treats her like a man. Too many women beat on guys knowing the social norm is against hitting women. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone fighting of any sort, but if women want true equality across the board, then they shouldn't hide behind the "a true man should never hit a woman" mantra. And yes, I know there are douche bags who think they're big and tough by beating on women. Those guys should and are dealt with in a court of law.

Click to expand...

You sir, are a real piece of work. You may want to seek counseling.

If I pick on a guy twice my size and he caves my face in, I'd have nobody but myself to blame. If women hide behind a Patriarchal honor code to attack without repercussions or incite violence, I'm not going to feel sorry for them. A person who incites violence is never a victim in my eyes.

I hope some day we live in a world where men are afraid to hit women and women are afraid to hit men. Unfortunately, there are some women who abuse the gender double standard on this issue, and I don't think society should let that slide. It only makes the problem worse.

hawknation2015 · Jul 20, 2015

kearly":2go16a6p said:
Seahawks1983":2go16a6p said:

Donk70":2go16a6p said:

She doubled up her fist and punched him 1st. This may be a unpopular opinion, but if she's going to come at him like a man then she shouldn't be surprised if he treats her like a man. Too many women beat on guys knowing the social norm is against hitting women. Don't get me wrong, I don't condone fighting of any sort, but if women want true equality across the board, then they shouldn't hide behind the "a true man should never hit a woman" mantra. And yes, I know there are douche bags who think they're big and tough by beating on women. Those guys should and are dealt with in a court of law.

Click to expand...

You sir, are a real piece of work. You may want to seek counseling.

Click to expand...

If I pick on a guy twice my size and he caves my face in, I'd have nobody but myself to blame. If women hide behind a Patriarchal honor code to attack without repercussions or incite violence, I'm not going to feel sorry for them. A person who incites violence is never a victim in my eyes.

That's not an accurate characterization of what happened here, and it certainly sends the wrong message about whether someone should put their hands on a woman who is posing no serious threat to them.

kearly · Jul 20, 2015

hawknation2015":1je7yzs1 said:
That's not an accurate characterization of what happened here, and it certainly sends the wrong message about whether someone should put their hands on a woman who is posing no serious threat to them.

I would point out that nobody knows what was said, so there is a lot of important information missing.

I never said it was okay for the guy to hit her. He was expelled and should be charged by police as well. I just hate it when a person is allowed to get away with inciting violence as if it doesn't matter, when it definitely matters. Less inciting of violence = less violence. As a society we need to grow up and realize this isn't a single gender issue.

hawknation2015 · Jul 20, 2015

kearly":xycpfin9 said:
hawknation2015":xycpfin9 said:

That's not an accurate characterization of what happened here, and it certainly sends the wrong message about whether someone should put their hands on a woman who is posing no serious threat to them.

Click to expand...

I would point out that nobody knows what was said, so there is a lot of important information missing.

I never said it was okay for the guy to hit her. He was expelled and should be charged by police as well. I just hate it when a person is allowed to get away with inciting violence as if it doesn't matter, when it definitely matters. Less inciting of violence = less violence. As a society we need to grow up and realize this isn't a single gender issue.

I should have said that it is not an accurate representation of what we saw happen here in the video. If she did incite violence by using fighting words, then might change my impression of her culpability.

As it stands, it appeared to me that she was merely trying to protect herself from a much bigger man, who looked like he was pushing/elbowing her to get to the bar and then wouldn't let go of her arm. She exerted about 1/100 of the force that he did in grabbing her arm and punching her in the face.

The reality is most violence is committed by men. That's not a "gender double standard." It's a social reality. Do women sometimes use violence against men? Yes, but it much more rare. Violence against women remains a problem that has to be taken seriously.

Seahawks1983 · Jul 21, 2015

kearly":cm3wgoz3 said:
hawknation2015":cm3wgoz3 said:

That's not an accurate characterization of what happened here, and it certainly sends the wrong message about whether someone should put their hands on a woman who is posing no serious threat to them.

Click to expand...

I would point out that nobody knows what was said, so there is a lot of important information missing.

I never said it was okay for the guy to hit her. He was expelled and should be charged by police as well. I just hate it when a person is allowed to get away with inciting violence as if it doesn't matter, when it definitely matters. Less inciting of violence = less violence. As a society we need to grow up and realize this isn't a single gender issue.

You know, it is possible to just walk away.

Scottemojo · Jul 21, 2015

hawknation2015":3d87npth said:
kearly":3d87npth said:

hawknation2015":3d87npth said:

That's not an accurate characterization of what happened here, and it certainly sends the wrong message about whether someone should put their hands on a woman who is posing no serious threat to them.

Click to expand...

I would point out that nobody knows what was said, so there is a lot of important information missing.

I never said it was okay for the guy to hit her. He was expelled and should be charged by police as well. I just hate it when a person is allowed to get away with inciting violence as if it doesn't matter, when it definitely matters. Less inciting of violence = less violence. As a society we need to grow up and realize this isn't a single gender issue.

Click to expand...

I should have said that it is not an accurate representation of what we saw happen here in the video. If she did incite violence by using fighting words, then might change my impression of her culpability.

As it stands, it appeared to me that she was merely trying to protect herself from a much bigger man, who looked like he was pushing/elbowing her to get to the bar and then wouldn't let go of her arm. She exerted about 1/100 of the force that he did in grabbing her arm and punching her in the face.

The reality is most violence is committed by men. That's not a "gender double standard." It's a social reality. Do women sometimes use violence against men? Yes, but it much more rare. Violence against women remains a problem that has to be taken seriously.

As does violence by women. Don't have 2 standards.

Some men (and women) are assholes. Just like rattlesnakes are rattlesnakes. Escalating things with either one is almost always a poor choice. The good choice? get the **** away.

Ex-FSU QB punches woman, self defense?

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