Too much Senior Bowl talk

cheese22

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There seems to be 3 main measuring sticks to judge a player's future in the NFL: their college career, the combine and the Senior bowl (all-star game). Of them, the Senior Bowl is far and away the worst way to judge talent. It seems like a lot of posters on here put way too much into a player's performance in it. In a game where you only practice with your teammates for a week, you have several rules that don't apply in a regular game (like no blitzing) and schemes can only be planned to fit abilities to a certain extent.

On the other hand, it seems many are unwilling to give much credit to a player's actual abilities in a game. It seems kind of silly but when posters talk about a player's future they use their height or 40 time or shuttle time, or the most commonly used measurement is arm length. Then when we get past using somewhat meaningless measurements, people want to site their performance from an all-star game where they were matched up against another wannabe draftee.

My basic point is that if a kid can play the game, he can play the game. It's shocking that somebody would or wouldn't get drafted because of an inch of arm length or they are only 6'3" instead of 6'5". Russell Wilson got passed over because of his size. Elvis Dumervil slid because of his size. Hines Ward was too slow. Bret Favre had poor mechanics. Aaron Rodgers played in a non-traditional system. All these guys who were studs in college fell for perceived faults based on a stopwatch or a measuring stick or because gm's were afraid to pick a kid because of the style of offense he played in.

Granted, if you want a wr just for the role of being a deep threat, speed is ultra important. But when a kid is an awesome college football player, don't be scared off by something as minute as arm length or broad jump. Apparently a lot of talent evaluators would rather evaluate measurements and times rather than talent and heart.

Rant over. If you got this far, you're more patient than my own mom.
 

chris98251

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cheese22":32q2g1p8 said:
There seems to be 3 main measuring sticks to judge a player's future in the NFL: their college career, the combine and the Senior bowl (all-star game). Of them, the Senior Bowl is far and away the worst way to judge talent. It seems like a lot of posters on here put way too much into a player's performance in it. In a game where you only practice with your teammates for a week, you have several rules that don't apply in a regular game (like no blitzing) and schemes can only be planned to fit abilities to a certain extent.

On the other hand, it seems many are unwilling to give much credit to a player's actual abilities in a game. It seems kind of silly but when posters talk about a player's future they use their height or 40 time or shuttle time, or the most commonly used measurement is arm length. Then when we get past using somewhat meaningless measurements, people want to site their performance from an all-star game where they were matched up against another wannabe draftee.

My basic point is that if a kid can play the game, he can play the game. It's shocking that somebody would or wouldn't get drafted because of an inch of arm length or they are only 6'3" instead of 6'5". Russell Wilson got passed over because of his size. Elvis Dumervil slid because of his size. Hines Ward was too slow. Bret Favre had poor mechanics. Aaron Rodgers played in a non-traditional system. All these guys who were studs in college fell for perceived faults based on a stopwatch or a measuring stick or because gm's were afraid to pick a kid because of the style of offense he played in.

Granted, if you want a wr just for the role of being a deep threat, speed is ultra important. But when a kid is an awesome college football player, don't be scared off by something as minute as arm length or broad jump. Apparently a lot of talent evaluators would rather evaluate measurements and times rather than talent and heart.

Rant over. If you got this far, you're more patient than my own mom.

Depends on the player and the system, the thing you don't measure is heart and desire and will to win and make the team around you better, whether you have to be accounted for on every play. There has been thousands of players that are on teams that look great but are a system player, there are more that have everything you want but no heart or the factor that separates them from the rest when things get tough or they are challenged.

The reason players like Earl who is too small, Wilson who is to small, Largent who was to slow and many others is that ability to be accounted for on every play because they make shit happen, they are smart and know the game, they work their asses off to stay there and don't take their careers for granted. They raise the level of play of their team mates by example and respect due to their own efforts, when it gets tough they can rally a team, they take on the leadership, they want to have the game on the line and be the guy.

Now find a way to measure that and you can argue a player like Kaep who looked good in his system can transfer that, or Tebow, Or Tim Couch, Mark Ingram, or any number of others that failed, then look at Thomas Rawls and tell me why he succeeds.
 

NYCoug

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You said what I've been thinking and wanted to say for a while, Cheese. Except you said it better than I ever could have. Excellent post my friend, and I agree with it 100%.

What I really hope isn't happening is that someone like Tom Cable isn't too rigid to follow the same level of thinking. Hopefully the fact that every OL on the team has 33.5" arm length doesn't mean that they would pass over a dude like Tretola for instance, just because of his arm length. If the dude can ball enough to overcome his perceived limitations (look at our roster, there are plenty of those guys) then I would hope they would give him a shot. Talent and heart should always win out.
 

penihawk

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As far as the sr bowl goes, the game is a very small part of it and your looking for head to head match-ups during the game. The week of practice is very valuable for coaches and scouts to observe players on and off the field. Much more than an all-star game.
 

Tech Worlds

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penihawk":2xgrnqzb said:
As far as the sr bowl goes, the game is a very small part of it and your looking for head to head match-ups during the game. The week of practice is very valuable for coaches and scouts to observe players on and off the field. Much more than an all-star game.
This.

It's really not the game. It's how they faired in practice against top notch talent.
 

cover-2

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I don't think anyone puts a lot of value in the actual Senior Bowl game, but sometimes the Senior Bowl practices seem a little bit over valued. Don't get me wrong there is value in those practices but, if a prospect stands out or struggles in those practices then I'll go back and look at their game tape to see if there is something I had previously missed on that particular prospect's evaluation.

Maybe all the arm length and 10-yard split talk annoys you but these are proven things that our front office looks for in prospects. IMO our front office has put together one of the best talented rosters in the NFL using their criteria. If you want a GM that just drafts good proven college football players without considering the details like arm length or broad jump then maybe a GM like Tim Ruskell is your kind of GM. But, I will concede that offense lineman is the positions that you can give a little on as far as minusha.
 

AgentDib

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I can see why the focus on minutiae seems annoying but college tape isn't everything either. With respect to all the SEC fans there's a pretty big difference between watching Tretola play against SEC DTs and then having him start against Aaron Donald and Michael Brockers.

That Senior Bowl practice may seem unimportant but if you're putting a few guys through drills you can pick up a lot of information about their athleticism that can supplement your knowledge along with their measurables. For a developmental coaching staff like the Hawks that raw potential is an important factor because coaching up great athletes is a good way for them to add value. We've probably erred too much in that direction recently but the logic is sound.
 

McGruff

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They are all data points. That's all. All star practices, combine numbers, pro day workouts, team interviews and visits. These things are all tools used to evaluate how a player might transition to the NFL. College tape is probably 75% of the equation, but coaches have to have ways to evaluate potential as well as production.

All star practices allow coaches to see how they do one on one against similar competition.

Combine and prodays allow coaches to evaluate overall athletic ability.

Interviews give coaches insight into character, football IQ and team fit.

Its all part of the puzzle. Take it all in, form an opinion, enjoy the thoughts and insights of others.
 

kearly

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I don't put much stock into it. Most of the elite players in the draft are juniors, and among the elite seniors, very few of them attend the Senior Bowl because they are scared of an injury or a bad showing. So basically, it's a showcase between a bunch of prospects that mostly won't be drafted until the 2nd round or later.

I think it's very slightly helpful for getting a look at a small school stud to see how well he holds up against better competition.

I thought small school DT Brandon Williams did well at the Senior Bowl a few years ago, and he actually went a bit later in the draft than his initial projection. Geno Atkins famously dominated the senior bowl and had a monster combine, and still ended up a 4th round bargain for Cincy.

I don't see a lot of examples of the Senior Bowl dramatically improving how high a draft pick was taken, which tells me that NFL execs only consider it to be a very small piece of the puzzle.
 

Hawks46

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I think it's a talking point for the mock drafters, but like Kearly said, the GM's and personnel guys in the NFL take more than this into account.

I also think it's a good predictor for specific positions, most notably the offensive and defensive lines. You're lining up and going head to head against other good competition snap after snap. In the regular season, they get small schools, and schools with weak positions they can match up against. The prevalent thought process about the Senior bowl (and Shrine games, etc.) is that guys are going up against consistently better competition. It's also where practices come in; they get the whole week to look at guys.

Like others mentioned, coachability, work ethic, drive, desire and motivation are very hard to quantify and measure. There are guys with heart that won't ever quit, and guys that have been elite in college, and have elite physical measurables, that get it handed to them in the pro's and don't know how to respond.

You get a lot of exceptions, but the draft is full of misses. You think Sherman goes in the 5th round if people knew what his potential was? What about Wilson ? Tom Brady? you get the picture. There are guys that will always break the mold, but the entire draft is mostly a crap shoot. Physical measurables, combine drills, college tape, etc. are all ways to be able to set certain parameters on guys. Parameters that have been proven indicators of success at the next level.

We're grading sides of beef here. It's not personal, which I think too many people get.
 

Scottemojo

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Richard Sherman had an awful Senior Bowl game.

Russell was only just OK in the game.

Coples tore it up in both the game and practice.

It was a sideline interview during the game that really turned me off of Kaepernick's attitude. Just a few words said it all to me. On the other hand, WIlson was reported to be taking phantom reps all week, emulating coaching advice other QBs were getting during their field time. With or without a ball in his hand.

I think our coaching staff has demonstrated plenty of savvy in knowing how much to take from Senior Bowl week.
 

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