From the Inside-Out ?...

Yesterday I was struck by an intriguing thought and rather than have it simply vanish in to the ether of an already established thread, I thought I would throw this idea out there in a new thread and see what other people think about it.

As we’ve been discussing the upcoming draft, many of us (myself probably at the front of the line on this one) have been focusing on LT when it comes to the Offensive Line. However, what happens in the event that a good LT option (in the eyes of Schneider and Carroll) simply isn't available at #26? What then? And is that even the place to start? Where do good offensive lines start from?

A couple of weeks ago, Rob shared something on this blog from Chris Collinsworth that was really quite intriguing …

The more football I watch, the more I’m convinced that center is a very underrated position. The other thing I’ve noticed is that edge rushers are almost entirely dependent on the interior rushers getting a push that keeps the QB from stepping up in the pocket.

So many teams put a premium on the center’s ability to get to the second level that they sign smaller centers that can move. I would put the premium on strength and size that could hold the point and allow my quarterback to step up. The Seahawks need help along that offensive line, and losing Max Unger in the Jimmy Graham trade last offseason hurt, but combining a talented young center like Kelly with Russell Wilson would give the Seahawks a communication tandem that would last a decade.

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Source:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/bl...cris-collinsworths-first-2016-nfl-mock-draft/

Collinsworth’s comments are interesting because he endorses a philosophy that I have had for years, but guess just never really fully articulated. And that is – is it possible that good offensive lines are NOT built from the OUTSIDE-IN … but rather from the INSIDE-OUT?

I think so. As I’ve mentioned many times throughout the offseason, the way that teams like the Rams and the Panthers were able to shut down our offense … was that they have very athletic active linemen (Aaron Donald, Star Lotulelei, and Kawaan Short) who blow up things right up the middle. And once they did that, the offense was pretty effectively nullified until adjustments were made.

And the more that I’ve thought about that, that was one big key to how we were successful in 2012 when Brandon Mebane was on the top of his game.

Getting stronger, more athletic, and overall more talented players right up the middle would seem to be the obvious solution.

So, if a good Left Tackle prospect simply isn’t available at #26 when the Seahawks draft, maybe the question to ask is – why fight it? Why go that route at all? Why not look to solidify the INTERIOR of that offensive line, possibly look for a potentially dominant RIGHT tackle in the draft, and hope that Gary Gilliam can become that LT of the future?

If that scenario presents itself (where there are no viable LT options at #26), the Hawks could look to possibly TRADE DOWN … pick up a Ryan Kelly or Nick Martin at the top of the 2nd … draft themselves the SPARQy interior linemen I believe they are already targeting (i.e. Connor McGovern, Graham Glasgow, etc.) AND perhaps net themselves an additional 3rd or 4th rounder in the process that they could use to get themselves someone who could be a dominant Right Tackle down the line (a Joe Haeg for example)?

They could end up walking away with THREE or FOUR fairly SPARQy linemen from this draft (some combination of) ...

Center -- Ryan Kelly, Nick Martin, and/or Graham Glasgow
Guards -- Connor McGovern, Graham Glasgow, Joe Dahl, Joshua Garnett, etc.
Tackles -- Germain Ifedi, Joe Haeg, etc.

If the Gary Gilliam LT experiment doesn’t work out this year … they would be in a position to possibly trade up next year, as they would have already laid the foundations of a solid offensive line through this year’s draft.

Thoughts?

This idea makes sense. Adding an athletic DT to provide pressure up the middle should be a consideration as well as building up the middle of our OL. As far as the LT option, Gilliam looks to be as good an option as what is expected to be available at #26. Looking forward to seeing how we work this out.

To a certain extent you can scheme against an edge rusher. Hold a TE, chip block a RB, rollout the opposite direction . . . but its really hard to scheme against interior pressure.

However, how many teams have a Aaron Donald type player? How many of those actually exist? Are there any to be found in this draft outside of Rankins?

McGruff":2cjd4p60 said:

To a certain extent you can scheme against an edge rusher. Hold a TE, chip block a RB, rollout the opposite direction . . . but its really hard to scheme against interior pressure.

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Correct. My point exactly and the exact reason why I'm wondering whether or not if building from the INSIDE OUT should be the primary focus.

Hawkscanner":322s6uf5 said:

McGruff":322s6uf5 said:

To a certain extent you can scheme against an edge rusher. Hold a TE, chip block a RB, rollout the opposite direction . . . but its really hard to scheme against interior pressure.

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Correct. My point exactly and the exact reason why I'm wondering whether or not if building from the INSIDE OUT should be the primary focus.

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I think this Seahawks brass agrees with you to a certain extent. Especially as the team evolves From Lynch to more spread principles. It's why you see them rolling the dice with edge players, now.

Look to New Orleans if you want a barometer for inside linemen scouting. It'll be a lot like that, IMO.

The Saints have long emphasized interior line over tackle. Guys who can make throwing lanes by redirecting. It is a good thought.

We've (I've) mentioned this for a long time here as it pertains to the defense. It's a critical component to an effective pass rush.

We saw how it (and specifically the lack of it) affected Seattle's defensive effectiveness in 2015. Without having the ability to collapse the pocket in the face of a QB drastically reduces the opportunities that edge rushers have to cause errors. Whether that's unforced errors like throwing the ball too early, or forced errors which results in sacks.

Seattle greatly missed the contributions of what was the Jordan Hill baseline interior rush, which succeeded Clinton McDonald's interior rush before him. On the face of it, those 5 sacks a season seem very modest. But we know that those sack numbers are merely alpha stats. They don't account for the general disruption that 'almost sacks' produce. Whether that's better ability to force incompletions. Or whether it results in more opportunities to make plays on errant throws delivered too early in order to avoid sacks.

Seattle's completion percentage allowed was not as good as in previous years. And most definitely our interception rates plummeted last year. Without the interior pass rush, QBs found stepping up into the pocket to avoid edge rush too easy and were able to extend plays to a successful conclusion.

If you look at great defenses, they ALL have good to great interior pass rush. That is a common thread and why the idea of building your defense from the DL back still persists to this day. Seattle bucked that trend to some degree but I'd say last year really did prove that axiom. Despite having an all time great secondary -- without the interior rush we enjoyed in 2013/14 -- that production was not achievable.

That talent is hard to acquire. Often has to be developed. And I am not in agreement with how PCJS have treated that function of the defense to date. Seattle has basically ignored getting good talent on the DL via the draft. We've basically taken a cull the UDFA herd to find the one in 100 prospects who can provide this function. I think this defense can't achieve it's potential without having good interior pass rush and it's something we should be investing in more heavily.

You don't need 'the next Aaron Donald' to have a good interior pass rush. This defense can function at an extremely high level with good/not great interior push. If we can simply deny QBs the ability to move up in the pocket to neutralize our edge rush -- that is sufficient. I don't see needing a 7+ sack a year interior rusher as necessary to make the defense whole.

While the narrative this year has been about the OL -- in my opinion the majority of losses this past season were attributable to defensive failures. The inability to hold onto leads late in games. It was a consistent theme last year. We didn't have problems keeping up with teams' scoring. Or mounting late game charges to get leads. Or even get into the 4th quarter with double digit leads. We did those offensively and still conceded victories by way of the defense.

This is why I'm campaigning for Andrew Billings. I don't see a BPA Olineman making it to 26, and Billings has the power to disrupt up the middle.

For centers, I prefer Graham Glasgow because he's a tough SOB and looked really good in Senior Bowl practices. I believe he can be picked in the 3rd round. Then play Patrick Lewis and bring Glasgow along.

Probably our biggest weakness last year was up the middle, as witnessed by Aaron Donald, Star Lotuleilie and Kawaan Short, among others.

Like Scotte mentioned, New Orleans has focused on the middle 3 for years, ostensibly because of Drew Brees height and a need for throwing lanes. A good LG/C/RG combination can actually make Tackles look pretty good if the QB has room to step up and throw.

So this is a great topic, and one that it pertinent to the Russell Wilson Seahawks.

I want Kelly at #26 for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. Been saying Hawks need a stud C since the end of the season.

As PE said, I think PC and JS are pretty much in agreement or they wouldn't have let Sweezy get away who is a good run blocker but not so much in pass pro. I see more emphasis on pass pro, especially up the middle ala' New Orleans (as Scott mentioned).

ivotuk":tq6iw4fp said:

This is why I'm campaigning for Andrew Billings. I don't see a BPA Olineman making it to 26, and Billings has the power to disrupt up the middle.

For centers, I prefer Graham Glasgow because he's a tough SOB and looked really good in Senior Bowl practices. I believe he can be picked in the 3rd round. Then play Patrick Lewis and bring Glasgow along.

Probably our biggest weakness last year was up the middle, as witnessed by Aaron Donald, Star Lotuleilie and Kawaan Short, among others.

Like Scotte mentioned, New Orleans has focused on the middle 3 for years, ostensibly because of Drew Brees height and a need for throwing lanes. A good LG/C/RG combination can actually make Tackles look pretty good if the QB has room to step up and throw.

So this is a great topic, and one that it pertinent to the Russell Wilson Seahawks.

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The rumor on the street (twitter) is that billings wont make it past MIN/CIN

I love him though

First the thought process of this thread has been my own for a long time. It's been proved on defense against elite QB's time and time again even tho the edge rushers get the stats and credit for it. (see SB50 & both Pats losses to NY)

As far as RW goes he is at his worst against teams with pain in the ass interior players that turn our interior OL into a chinese fire drill at the snap of the ball. I think the loss of Unger from the neck up hurt with combating defenses like that just as much as the lack of interior talent (Britt). Imo a plug and play C & G are more important than spending early draft capitol on OT unless its Conklin. After that I see RT's & G to start their careers and there are a few candidates for that in rds 3-5.

Billings is one of the few players I would take over Ryan Kelly at 26. Young,country strong and huge potential to be the "pain in the ass" we need in our interior d-line.

Glad to see that my thought process is in line with a lot of other people as well. It's just that so much time and energy has been focused on LT ... and as the draft has approached, it's becoming abundantly evident that unless they look to TRADE UP (which I don't think Seattle should do) the Seahawks just aren't going to be in a position to get a good quality plug and play LT. They're just not at the place right now, as basically the entire Offensive Line is in need of reconstruction. There are far more question marks than answers.

Given:
1) all the holes that exist currently on this Offensive Line
2) the fact that most of the good LT's will likely be gone by #26
3) the fact that this appears to be a good draft for Centers and Guards ...

... it just might make sense to look to beef up the interior of the line ... perhaps look to nab a road grader RIGHT Tackle ... and then look to package to trade up to get a stud LT next year if necessary. If the LT of the future simply isn't there at #26 -- don't reach -- I would just take the BPA in terms of Offensive Linemen.

If the Seahawks can plug all the holes except one with good athletic, quick, strong, SPARQy, and talented Offensive Linemen through this draft ... IMO they will have taken a massive step towards getting back to the Super Bowl.

I don't think Seattle wants an LT at all. I think they are very Happy with Gilliam, and they have a veteran to push him.

I think they want a versatile lineman who can play guard and tackle. Or center and guard.

McGruff":idsvr59w said:

I don't think Seattle wants an LT at all. I think they are very Happy with Gilliam, and they have a veteran to push him.

I think they want a versatile lineman who can play guard and tackle. Or center and guard.

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You may very well be right about Gilliam. In watching him play, he's certainly flashed some potential at LT ... and there were times he certainly struggled. There is no doubting that Gilliam certainly ticks most of the boxes that the Seahawks look for in terms of his overall size, measureables, athleticism, etc.

I was just listening to Rob and the guys over at Field Gulls latest 3000 NFL Mock Draft podcast over on Rob's site (for those of you who haven't discovered that yet, you've got to check it out -- it's a must listen). Anyway, it was interesting to hear Rob relay Tom Cable's comments that in terms of his ability to handle the speed rush that there might be one pass rusher in the entire league whom Gilliam might have trouble with -- and that is Von Miller. That is a very interesting comment and one that certainly underscores the kind of quickness and overall athleticism that I've seen from Gilliam the times he's been in there at LT. The one thing that it's looked like to me Gilliam has struggled with mostly is basically getting bull rushed. As Rob pointed out (and I concur) -- a lot of that is just technique and pure strength. And that would be very encouraging ... because he CAN get better in those arenas.

So, I believe that in a perfect world Schneider would love to draft a young guy in order to encourage competition there at LT (maybe a Le'Raven Clark or perhaps a later round prospect with potential such as a Willie Beavers) ... but you may be right that in the end, LT may not be a focus at all (given where the Hawks are drafting at #26).

I would agree with you in what you're saying in terms of versatile linemen, so would definitely look for the Hawks to target McGovern, Glasgow, or even a Joe Dahl (who has Tackle experience and might be able to play Center if given time IMO).

I'm like you, except definitely I think Gilliam is pegged as the left tackle. But I still think they'll use the first pick on a offensive tackle that has the strength and leg drive to play guard in the interim. This person will either start at right tackle (any of the 2nd-tier tackle prospects except maybe Spriggs make sense on the right immediately) or left guard.

But I totally agree. You can build inside out, but, positional values means the outside guys might still have to be picked earlier. The guys you are okay with playing outside immediately are going to be gone by about pick 36. So if you don't get one there, and you want one, a trade up is necessary.

Whereas guys like McGovern and Garnett, though they might develop into a higher echelon of their position (compared to the tackles), can be had later.

McGruff":33qw2wio said:

I don't think Seattle wants an LT at all. I think they are very Happy with Gilliam, and they have a veteran to push him.

I think they want a versatile lineman who can play guard and tackle. Or center and guard.

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I wouldn't go that far.

Basically we need to draft an OT this year somewhere. Because in 2018 we're going to probably need to replace Webb and Gilliam. If Gilliam shines at LT, there is no way we're keeping him. Will be easier to onboard a project OT this year and if he doesn't have it after a year, reassess.

Gotta keep that treadmill moving. Just doesn't have to be a day 1/2 pick to do it.

PC/JS have, at least so far, put a much larger premium on offensive tackle than the interior spots. First, consider how they have invested:

Tackle: Okung and Carp were 1st round picks. Britt was a 2nd round pick. All were drafted to play tackle.
Guard: Mostly scrapheap guys. Highest drafted guard was John Moffitt in round 3.
Center: They have never drafted a player who's primary position in college was Center. Not even once.

This emphasis makes sense when considering that Tom Cable runs an outside zone scheme. The bread and butter of the running game in an outside zone scheme is running just outside of the offensive tackle spot. For this reason, tackles winning matchups in the running game carries increased importance.

It's probably also why Alex Gibbs demanded a stud left tackle in the draft as a condition of signing here in 2010.

Barring a big philosophical change, I expect Seattle to continue to value offensive tackle much more than interior blocking.

It's starting to feel like Jamarcus Webb's $2.5 million guaranteed contract, Pete Carroll and John Schneider's very public pronouncements of faith in the current OL, the open talk about drafting a pass rusher... it's starting to feel like a big fat smokescreen.

Could the troubled match ups in the middle against St. Louis and Carolina warrant an adjustment in philosophy? I think so, but nothing would surprise me.

Fantastic post, Kearly.

Smokescreen? God knows JS & Pete are capable of a smokescreen. Good post.
Nice post also by the OP. I share your view (and Chris Collinsworth's) to a great extent.
Man, watching our guards and center this year just about wore a person out.

As of right now, I see Whitehair or Kelly.
What JS & Pete see I imagine will be something different.

I guess I would be disappointed if they didn't know a lot more than I do.