Russell Wilson

Fade":id8fvoj0 said:

Russell is a film junky. When the O-Line puts out on film a consistent pocket, he will begin to stay in the pocket. The film the last two years told him to bail, so he did rightfully so. He would be on IR otherwise.

2015 proves his height being an impairment in the pocket is greatly exaggerated. Is his vision at time impaired? Yes, but consistently? I would say no.

Shallow crosses at times give him trouble due to impaired sight lines, but the biggest thing that gives RW problems would have to be interior lineman getting pushed back into his lap. He literally can't see when that happens, and you will see RW pull the ball down and look to escape when it does happen. Most QBs typically just stand in there and fire away given this particular scenario I'm trying to articulate, but Russell can't. He needs space.

The Russell holding the ball thing, is where I think the "he can't see" thing comes from. When really most of the time, it's all of his receivers running deep, and he has to wait for the routes to develop. Pete Carroll is obsessed with the deep ball. Seattle has been allergic to intermediate route concepts, and a lack of safety valve options on deeper routes, making it even harder on their QB to be successful.

Also to early in games Pete doesn't want Russell taking risks so he wants Russell to only pull the trigger if a guy is wide open. Which forces Russ to hold the ball, and also I think it leads to inaccuracy because you're overthinking it and trying to place it in a perfect spot. Rather than --> see target, hit target. Which is a better philosophy imo.

Click to expand...

This is among the most constructive, fair analysis of Russell I've ever seen on this site. Look, to me Russell will always be a Steve Young type Qb at his best. Can quick throws work? Sure, but Russell sometimes has pressure in his face as soon as he snaps the ball. Hard to tell a Qb to release the ball quickly when you're giving him a half a second extra to execute with a guy coming for him

You're also right about pushing the middle of the pocket. To me it's Russell's Achilles heel. Add Bree's to that equation. It's why having a great center and guard is so important.

This is in comparison to say, a Carson Wentz or Big Ben, who can fire it down field on pure arm strength even with pressure up the middle and without getting their feet set. Of course, Russell has skills they don't. When Russell gets older, he's going to need a great o-line to ensure those moments are few and far between. For now, just a good o-line should do

chris98251":298vo1b5 said:

Screens check down routes, deep balls and seam routes on time, Wilson is going to have to read and fire and hit the open guy in progression and not look for a bigger piece of the pie. I believe that is what we will see. Passing lanes should be there if the line is coached up with a different take on the ZBS scheme.

Click to expand...

Brees has a running game this year, the past couple years he really hasnt and thats why he was throwing for 5000 yards and like 40 touchdowns a year.

vin.couve12":2x0ka8l6 said:

It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.

Click to expand...

I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

austinslater25":2o9kqv9z said:

vin.couve12":2o9kqv9z said:

It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.

Click to expand...

I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

Click to expand...

The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

vin.couve12":2qnwxumq said:

austinslater25":2qnwxumq said:

vin.couve12":2qnwxumq said:

It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.

Click to expand...

I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

Click to expand...

The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

Click to expand...

Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.

Sox-n-Hawks":1lbmobb1 said:

vin.couve12":1lbmobb1 said:

austinslater25":1lbmobb1 said:

vin.couve12":1lbmobb1 said:

It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.

Click to expand...

I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

Click to expand...

The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

Click to expand...

Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.

Click to expand...

Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

There's more to it than that.

vin.couve12":2qjmfqvf said:

Sox-n-Hawks":2qjmfqvf said:

vin.couve12":2qjmfqvf said:

austinslater25":2qjmfqvf said:

I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

Click to expand...

The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

Click to expand...

Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.

Click to expand...

Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

There's more to it than that.

Click to expand...

Nah, a pure zone blocking scheme will always make the QB suffer in pass protection.

Sox-n-Hawks":28jbzhe2 said:

vin.couve12":28jbzhe2 said:

Sox-n-Hawks":28jbzhe2 said:

vin.couve12":28jbzhe2 said:

The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

Click to expand...

Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.

Click to expand...

Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

There's more to it than that.

Click to expand...

Nah, a pure zone blocking scheme will always make the QB suffer in pass protection.

Click to expand...

Ok well....

That actually made me think for a second there.

If you're an OL and you're selling run, where you're firing off at a gap angle instead of a man, how does that effect pass blocking?

The answer is that it doesn't. AT ALL.

Unless the defense is actually concerned about the run. If they aren't, they're just going to shoot gaps and have the QB dead to rights.

vin.couve12":1x33jp4p said:

Sox-n-Hawks":1x33jp4p said:

vin.couve12":1x33jp4p said:

Sox-n-Hawks":1x33jp4p said:

Backs score touchdowns, linemen win games. Build an All Pro line, superbowls follow REGARDLESS of who is behind them.

Click to expand...

Tell that to modern Dallas. Their previous QB always tried to do too much and choked out each time and lost the game for the team with it on his shoulders and always seemed to turn the ball over and the worst times. Not unlike us this year. Unlike their 90s teams, they don't have a defense and solid STs.

There's more to it than that.

Click to expand...

Nah, a pure zone blocking scheme will always make the QB suffer in pass protection.

Click to expand...

Ok well....

That actually made me think for a second there.

If you're an OL and you're selling run, where you're firing off at a gap angle instead of a man, how does that effect pass blocking?

The answer is that it doesn't. AT ALL.

Unless the defense is actually concerned about the run. If they aren't, they're just going to shoot gaps and have the QB dead to rights.

Click to expand...

It is more about the nuances of the ZBS. Each blocker has tells as to which way they're moving feet, hands for each play. It's subconscious. Once there are a couple of seasons of film study on each ZBS team, they dwindle. How many PURE ZBS teams are left. Pitt? Gone. Saints? Gone. Atlanta? Gone.

vin.couve12":29d0qkiy said:

austinslater25":29d0qkiy said:

vin.couve12":29d0qkiy said:

It's not all the line in that scenario. He can't step up in the pocket and see Baldwin on a shallow cross, for instance. Physics literally dictates it's not possible. Seeing is the problem, not release point. He can step up soemwhat on longer routes, but not shallow ones. It's one of the same reasons why he takes deeper pass drops (an actual stat) and also doesn't operate much under center. Not that I expect crazies to admit things like physics, but a RB to go along with Carson and a better OL should maximize our play action game again. I was laughing at how wide open the Jags receivers and tight ends were against PIT. Their running game forced the PIT defense take a half second to read run and it slowed their defense down a lot.

We get that going and RW's rating goes back up to what it was a few years ago. If not, it'll just be more of the same. MAYBE playoffs, but an early exit.

Brees, Rapey, and Ryan are all home right now. They lost to no name QBs on teams who run the ball, play defense and ST, and just aren't all about that lie that is hero ball.

Click to expand...

I wish this theory would die. Multiple ex NFL quarterbacks have said this is largely false as they see through lanes not dorectly over the top of a lineman. Even taller guys struggle to see over a lineman because of the distance to the receiver and the lineman themselves. He has hit every single throw a quarterback can make at one time or another. He bails early and often because the line is terrible, he's gotten a little anticipatory and he knows him extending the play is sometimes the only way to sustain a drive......not because he can't see over a 6ft 4 inch lineman because no one can see over lineman that big.

Click to expand...

The latter statement is absolutely false. Where you're right is where other things can be done to compensate. I'll also throw out there that there are pros and cons to every QB. I still maintain that the Seattle Seahawks should never prove anything on behalf of Russell Wilson.

Seattle Seahawks > Russell Wilson

RW is a cog in the machine, albeit an important one. Man worship is a poison is the minds of all humanity.

The formula that wins Lombardi trophies/SB rings is infinitely more important and we have a legitimate and actual factual baseline for this IN...Seattle Washington and across the NFL and football in general. Lose worshiping or die trying.

Click to expand...

:2thumbs:You tried ..
To Billefense wins Championships and field goals win games.

It would just be nice to see an OC who uses Wilson the way he should. The short passing game and screen passes need to be a part of this offense. And, please please please.......an actual running game.

Hopefully he actually aludibles out of a couple of plays this year.

I know they are not fans of the QB sneak, but where I sit at the games, I had a great viewpoint of some EASY first downs on 3rd and short if he just calls it and dives to the left of the Center. I just hope they get creative once in awhile and don't just continue the same old predictable stuff. They need to adjust better and play 4 quarters, not just the 2nd half. It's maddening the way the offense has been run the last couple seasons. You are supposed to build your Offense around the QB, especially once w/unique talents. He is one of the best QB's in the league, period. Looking forward to seeing him used correctly. He can do anything on the field imo.

So much crow being self-served up in this thread, and so much blind RW hate. Made several of my brain cells self-destruct before I stopped reading. Problem with the self-serve crow is that when RW actually has a line these people will be either lurking exclusively, or sneaking onto his bandwagon.

Wilson had a line at Wisconsin and was among the top three QBs, as a passer. The running was a cherry on top. Oh, and their OL was as big or bigger than NFL lines. Still didn't have a problem playing from the pocket.

The Media types and former players who just can't accept that he IS a good passer from the pocket is hilarious.
But we are used to the blatant refusal to accept him for what he is, one of the best in the game.

I am impressed. You guys made some excellent points. I did not see anyone go off the rails with their analyses. From what I gather reading your comments is that it still comes down the O line, a running game and how Pete wants to use Russell. Being an old lineman and coaching the line I have my biases. I feel that games are won and loss on the line. That being said, I know I will take heat for this, but we got Jimmy Graham. He is a great receiver and probably pulled us out of a lot of jams this year with his TD catches. There is a price to pay. Pete was successful with the run game and I always had the impression he was a run first guy. Then he goes after Graham who cannot block. Add to this a line that has changed numerous times in the last two so much that one cannot keep track of the starters it is a recipe for disaster. If our line was better or coaching better on the line (make your choice) perhaps this would not have been an issue. We have had to go away from where our strength was ......the running game. When this happened, of course, Jimmy became more of an asset. I like Jimmy but Pete is going to have to make a choice. This is just me, I would rather have big good blocking tight end that can catch especially if we are going to run. Most of the teams are rushing guys from the outside to contain Russell. Whomever we place at tackles has to have mobility. Ifedi is more suited to be a guard than a tackle. IMO

This team hasn't had a truly great blocking Tight End since Z. Miller. He was basically an extra lineman.

Fade":31g0c85x said:

The Russell holding the ball thing, is where I think the "he can't see" thing comes from. When really most of the time, it's all of his receivers running deep, and he has to wait for the routes to develop. Pete Carroll is obsessed with the deep ball. Seattle has been allergic to intermediate route concepts, and a lack of safety valve options on deeper routes, making it even harder on their QB to be successful.

Also to early in games Pete doesn't want Russell taking risks so he wants Russell to only pull the trigger if a guy is wide open. Which forces Russ to hold the ball, and also I think it leads to inaccuracy because you're overthinking it and trying to place it in a perfect spot. Rather than --> see target, hit target. Which is a better philosophy imo.

Click to expand...

Excellent analysis. Exactly what people need to be noticing.

For contrast, look at the below cut-up of the Eagles game, one of Wilson's best games of 2017. People assume he must have gotten better pass protection during the game because they're relying on football cliches ("the line is all that matters and enables everything") rather than on visual assessment and data. But look carefully (after the first three passes, #2 and #3 were an exception) at how quickly Wilson's getting the ball out.

https://streamable.com/xtby3

The ball was often out under 2 seconds. Quick, pre-determined throws. That stands in comparison to his overall 2017 time-to-throw, which was 3.05 seconds.

That Eagles game was a repeat of 2015, during which, as vin.couver12 pointed out, Wilson saw success because he morphed into a quick-passer who didn't hold onto the ball long. The gameplan, not the OL, protected Wilson. Indeed, on the longer throws against the Eagles, you get the sense that the line wasn't really holding up any better than the rest of the season.

So why didn't Wilson get the benefit of this gameplan more often?

Because Pete. Just like Fade said. Deep ball. Explosive plays. Dishearten the defense. Win forever. "Our brand of football" and yadda yadda. He's a prideful coach who believes devoutly in his philosophy. The play-calling has been the most influential factor on Wilson. There are offensive coordinators out there who are known for getting their QB's sacked. Pete was one of them. Would a better line help? Yes. But they didn't have a better line. What they DID have was the ability to adapt on offense - and they didn't do it.

And Pete is still the head coach of the Seahawks. Brian Schottenheimer is still going to be calling the plays how Pete wants them called. And Pete is still going to want the deep bomb, which will continue to put pressure on the offensive line and expose their weaknesses. We can keep griping about the line all we want, but the fact remains that problems on the line are actually one of the easiest personnel deficiencies in pro football to work around, and if the coaching staff doesn't do it, that's on them, not the line.

This is a team game. Russell doesn't help the line by holding on to the ball longer than every QB in the league except Watson. Maybe that's because of Bevell's slow developing route schemes. Maybe it's because Russell doesn't want to throw it until the receiver is WIDE open. (This is my theory as to why his deep balls are always underthrown or contested. And the only timing routes we use are fades.) Maybe it's because Russell hasn't been coached to get rid of it and keep the chains moving.

Whatever it is, he's giving up a ton a sacks because he won't step up in the pocket and deliver the ball. And that doesn't have anything to do with his height.

Don't get me wrong. I like him and he's a good QB. But if I'm on that line, I'm ready to choke him for making me look like an a-hole week after week.