Brian Schottenheimer

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The fact that they had to mention how great his Dad was is just a sign that they were scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and find nice things to say.

Seriously, can anyone say anything positive about Brian Schottenheimer as an OC other than the fact that his Jets teams finished in the Top 3 in rushing 3 times or that he coached Drew Brees 12 years ago?

I don't think there is a single thing anyone can say positive about his work other than that. I have been actively looking. It's depressing.

TwistedHusky":ahk9m7k6 said:

Maybe.

But this looks more like Pete trying to force an outdated offensive philosophy on a team that does not have the personnel to execute it.

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Outdated? That's ignorant of the facts of how teams win. Strong defense, Running game, and controlling the clock are essential to winning long-term, through all seasons/weather, and in the playoffs.

Second, we may have the personnel, you just haven't seen them trained correctly or put in a scheme where they can actually be successful.

Third, it doesn't "look" this way at all; you only perceive it that way based on flawed assumptions.

Change the assumptions, and you can enjoy the game much more. Why would you actually want to continue being pessimistic?

HawkFan72":3uhvju7k said:

The fact that they had to mention how great his Dad was is just a sign that they were scraping the bottom of the barrel to try and find nice things to say.

Seriously, can anyone say anything positive about Brian Schottenheimer as an OC other than the fact that his Jets teams finished in the Top 3 in rushing 3 times or that he coached Drew Brees 12 years ago?

I don't think there is a single thing anyone can say positive about his work other than that. I have been actively looking. It's depressing.

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I'm hoping this is not the same mistake they made with Cable. Pete was so hell bent on building a run game, he completely overlooked the shitty pass protection he has provided his entire career. Again with the Schotty pick I think we see a run game obsession that is willing to turn a blind eye to overall numbers.

Doesn't mean it can't work. It just means we are heading down that same road, in a newer model of the same car.

Seymour":325aysga said:

Doesn't mean it can't work. It just means we are heading down that same road, in a newer model of the same car.

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How is a totally difference coordinator who ran a totally different scheme with totally different coaches AND doesn't have to co-coordinate with Cable the same car?

I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Schottenheimer either, but you guys are REALLY negative over something we haven't even seen yet.

Sgt. Largent":1w7skbmt said:

Seymour":1w7skbmt said:

Doesn't mean it can't work. It just means we are heading down that same road, in a newer model of the same car.

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How is a totally difference coordinator who ran a totally different scheme with totally different coaches AND doesn't have to co-coordinate with Cable the same car?

I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Schottenheimer either, but you guys are REALLY negative over something we haven't even seen yet.

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The topic does not include Cable and Solari so throw them out.

Beyond that I can answer that with one word....Pete.

Newer models of the same cars have new features....don't overthink my post and strike the negative drum out of reaction is my suggestion.

Sgt. Largent":2qnrz9ey said:

Seymour":2qnrz9ey said:

Doesn't mean it can't work. It just means we are heading down that same road, in a newer model of the same car.

Click to expand...

How is a totally difference coordinator who ran a totally different scheme with totally different coaches AND doesn't have to co-coordinate with Cable the same car?

I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Schottenheimer either, but you guys are REALLY negative over something we haven't even seen yet.

Click to expand...

We've seen him as an O-Coordinator for 9 years, and he wasn't Top 10 in any of them. Top 20 twice. And that's not even taking into account his terrible year in College at Georgia which was another failure. That's why we can be negative over it. Other than Brees saying he liked him as a QB coach 12 years ago, and Rex Ryan saying he's "loyal", it is really difficult to find anything else positive about him as a Coordinator and a developer of talent. You can choose to be optimistic, but if you are looking at the numbers and the history, it is very difficult. He was brought in to run the ball, but that's it. His passing games have been a failure every year at every stop. Criticized for being uncreative and over complicated throughout his career. And our Offense will be learning all new terminology.

If this guy's dad wasn't Marty Schottenheimer, I find it hard to believe he still gets an NFL Coordinator's job based on his track record. There, I said it.

If I have to eat crow, I'll eat crow. But we'll be crying for Bevell to come back by the end of next year. And I wanted Bevell gone.

HawkFan72":thsrs1xk said:

Sgt. Largent":thsrs1xk said:

Seymour":thsrs1xk said:

Doesn't mean it can't work. It just means we are heading down that same road, in a newer model of the same car.

Click to expand...

How is a totally difference coordinator who ran a totally different scheme with totally different coaches AND doesn't have to co-coordinate with Cable the same car?

I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Schottenheimer either, but you guys are REALLY negative over something we haven't even seen yet.

Click to expand...

We've seen him as an O-Coordinator for 9 years, and he wasn't Top 10 in any of them. Top 20 twice. And that's not even taking into account his terrible year in College at Georgia which was another failure. That's why we can be negative over it. Other than Brees saying he liked him as a QB coach 12 years ago, and Rex Ryan saying he's "loyal", it is really difficult to find anything else positive about him as a Coordinator and a developer of talent. You can choose to be optimistic, but if you are looking at the numbers and the history, it is very difficult. He was brought in to run the ball, but that's it. His passing games have been a failure every year at every stop. Criticized for being uncreative and over complicated throughout his career. And our Offense will be learning all new terminology.

If this guy's dad wasn't Marty Schottenheimer, I find it hard to believe he still gets an NFL Coordinator's job based on his track record. There, I said it.

If I have to eat crow, I'll eat crow. But we'll be crying for Bevell to come back by the end of next year. And I wanted Bevell gone.

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Context matters though. You can't judge Schottenheimer without also noting that the best QB he's worked with was Sam Bradford, whom was hurt for most of Schottenheimer's time with him. After that it was Mark Sanchez. I guess you could include an ancient and wildly inconsistent Farve here, too. Talent matters.

Bruce Arians is known to be a good offensive coordinator. His offenses failed without Palmer. Mike McCarthy's offenses failed without Rodgers. Shannahan's offense looked awful without Ryan. I can go on and on. Offensive coordinators look as good as their starting quarterbacks, of which Shottenheimer has had amazingly bad luck.

Now you can say the reason his quarterbacks failed was due to his failings as a coordinator but that is a chicken and the egg argument, and we've seen enough of Bradford, Sanchez, and the plethora of other career backups that he's worked with to know that it wasn't just Shottenheimer.

HawkFan72":3mj1x6op said:

Sgt. Largent":3mj1x6op said:

Seymour":3mj1x6op said:

Doesn't mean it can't work. It just means we are heading down that same road, in a newer model of the same car.

Click to expand...

How is a totally difference coordinator who ran a totally different scheme with totally different coaches AND doesn't have to co-coordinate with Cable the same car?

I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Schottenheimer either, but you guys are REALLY negative over something we haven't even seen yet.

Click to expand...

We've seen him as an O-Coordinator for 9 years, and he wasn't Top 10 in any of them. Top 20 twice. And that's not even taking into account his terrible year in College at Georgia which was another failure. That's why we can be negative over it. Other than Brees saying he liked him as a QB coach 12 years ago, and Rex Ryan saying he's "loyal", it is really difficult to find anything else positive about him as a Coordinator and a developer of talent. You can choose to be optimistic, but if you are looking at the numbers and the history, it is very difficult. He was brought in to run the ball, but that's it. His passing games have been a failure every year at every stop. Criticized for being uncreative and over complicated throughout his career. And our Offense will be learning all new terminology.

If this guy's dad wasn't Marty Schottenheimer, I find it hard to believe he still gets an NFL Coordinator's job based on his track record. There, I said it.

If I have to eat crow, I'll eat crow. But we'll be crying for Bevell to come back by the end of next year. And I wanted Bevell gone.

Click to expand...

I agree with everything but the second to last sentence. Even if it is more of the same (and I find it likely it will be) Bevell needed to go. If it does end up being more of the same, hopefully it will be enough to enough to send Pete riding off into the sunset. I think in the end, that is what is going to have to happen to make progress here. I really hope I do have to eat crow though.

This is a pretty underwhelming hire but it's an understandable hire. Pete wants a yes-man, and a guy who's only coaching in the NFL because of his last name is likely highly adept at the art of yes-mannery.

Regarding the obsession with the running game, it only works if you have the personnel to actually run a run-heavy offense, and you don't become predictable. The most successful teams aren't the ones that pound da rawk on two-thirds of their snaps, it's the teams with balance.

The Titans are a prime example of what happens when the scheme goes wrong. They became so obsessed with playing big strong manly man smashmouf footbaw that it completely backfired and their QB regressed. Implementing a run, run, pass, repeat system also doesn't make sense given that Russ needs around 7-10 reps to find his rhythm, which implies that we should be using the pass to set up the run, not vice-versa, as the Mularkey's and Carroll's of the world seem to think. The longer we wait to get Russ into a rhythm the more the offense will struggle, and I actually think a renewed focus on the running game with our mediocre personnel will lead to an even worse offense this year.

Trrrroy":3vxhz6tm said:

HawkFan72":3vxhz6tm said:

Sgt. Largent":3vxhz6tm said:

Seymour":3vxhz6tm said:

Doesn't mean it can't work. It just means we are heading down that same road, in a newer model of the same car.

Click to expand...

How is a totally difference coordinator who ran a totally different scheme with totally different coaches AND doesn't have to co-coordinate with Cable the same car?

I'm not exactly doing cartwheels over Schottenheimer either, but you guys are REALLY negative over something we haven't even seen yet.

Click to expand...

We've seen him as an O-Coordinator for 9 years, and he wasn't Top 10 in any of them. Top 20 twice. And that's not even taking into account his terrible year in College at Georgia which was another failure. That's why we can be negative over it. Other than Brees saying he liked him as a QB coach 12 years ago, and Rex Ryan saying he's "loyal", it is really difficult to find anything else positive about him as a Coordinator and a developer of talent. You can choose to be optimistic, but if you are looking at the numbers and the history, it is very difficult. He was brought in to run the ball, but that's it. His passing games have been a failure every year at every stop. Criticized for being uncreative and over complicated throughout his career. And our Offense will be learning all new terminology.

If this guy's dad wasn't Marty Schottenheimer, I find it hard to believe he still gets an NFL Coordinator's job based on his track record. There, I said it.

If I have to eat crow, I'll eat crow. But we'll be crying for Bevell to come back by the end of next year. And I wanted Bevell gone.

Click to expand...

Context matters though. You can't judge Schottenheimer without also noting that the best QB he's worked with was Sam Bradford, whom was hurt for most of Schottenheimer's time with him. After that it was Mark Sanchez. I guess you could include an ancient and wildly inconsistent Farve here, too. Talent matters.

Bruce Arians is known to be a good offensive coordinator. His offenses failed without Palmer. Mike McCarthy's offenses failed without Rodgers. Shannahan's offense looked awful without Ryan. I can go on and on. Offensive coordinators look as good as their starting quarterbacks, of which Shottenheimer has had amazingly bad luck.

Now you can say the reason his quarterbacks failed was due to his failings as a coordinator but that is a chicken and the egg argument, and we've seen enough of Bradford, Sanchez, and the plethora of other career backups that he's worked with to know that it wasn't just Shottenheimer.

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Well to counter that argument or to at the very least...play devil's advocate. I can argue that especially in an increasingly pass first league, there are other coordinators who ELEVATED talent. Look no further than Case Keenum, Nick Foles, or even Blake Bortles for example. Andy Reid also elevated Jeff Garcia and Alex Smith. There are many examples of great coordinators elevating their talent. And Mike McCarthy is questionable as a play caller. Arians made Drew Stanton look far more competent and at times, the Cardinals were actually competitive

Alex smith was good before Reid, look at his Harbaugh years. Garcia was a pro bowl QB before and after Reid. Bortles is essentially Sanchez, who also made the AFC championship game riding an elite defense and running game under Shottenheimer. I'll give you Case Keenum under Pat Shurmer, but that's the exception to the rule. But you can't give Shurmer that without also noting how utterly mediocre his offenses looked with the eagles and browns. As for Foles, we'll see. It's been three games.

Coaching is as critical to development of players as well as putting them in situations to succeed. Run first and pound and ground are all things that are formulas, but there are situations where they may not work. How you scheme and draw up plays to adapt to situations is the greatest value a coach can bring to the table. To follow a vision and formula is great, but teams adapt to your scheme and you need to find a way to adapt to it. And of course you need some luck and home field advantage to make it to the Super Bowl.

I don't know if this will work, but it is what it is, just wait and see what the future holds for our beloved Seahawks!

Trrrroy":29kgbu02 said:

Alex smith was good before Reid, look at his Harbaugh years. Garcia was a pro bowl QB before and after Reid. Bortles is essentially Sanchez, who also made the AFC championship game riding an elite defense and running game under Shottenheimer. I'll give you Case Keenum under Pat Shurmer, but that's the exception to the rule. But you can't give Shurmer that without also noting how utterly mediocre his offenses looked with the eagles and browns. As for Foles, we'll see. It's been three games.

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Alex Smith was average with Harbaugh, and even worse before Harbaugh. A complete bust

Garcia was always an average QB. He did however have Terrell Owens and Andy Reid's scheme..I guess

Case Keenum, well that speaks for itself

The Eagles were 2nd in total offense and number 1 in rushing in 2013, with Pat Shurmer as the Offensive coordinator. With Mark Sanchez and Nick Foles leading the way. In 2014 the Eagles were # 5 in total offense. 2015 was Shurmer's worse year, and even that was better than Schotty's best years

So saying the Eagles offense was "utterly mediocre" is not even remotely accurate, or factual. There is at minimum, a glimmer of success that far exceeds Schotty. Again, I will support him, but I am going on blind faith

Scorpion05":2m7j1nuh said:

Trrrroy":2m7j1nuh said:

Alex smith was good before Reid, look at his Harbaugh years. Garcia was a pro bowl QB before and after Reid. Bortles is essentially Sanchez, who also made the AFC championship game riding an elite defense and running game under Shottenheimer. I'll give you Case Keenum under Pat Shurmer, but that's the exception to the rule. But you can't give Shurmer that without also noting how utterly mediocre his offenses looked with the eagles and browns. As for Foles, we'll see. It's been three games.

Click to expand...

Alex Smith was average with Harbaugh, and even worse before Harbaugh. A complete bust

Garcia was always an average QB. He did however have Terrell Owens and Andy Reid's scheme..I guess

Case Keenum, well that speaks for itself

The Eagles were 2nd in total offense and number 1 in rushing in 2013, with Pat Shurmer as the Offensive coordinator. With Mark Sanchez and Nick Foles leading the way. In 2014 the Eagles were # 5 in total offense. 2015 was Shurmer's worse year, and even that was better than Schotty's best years

So saying the Eagles offense was "utterly mediocre" is not even remotely accurate, or factual. There is at minimum, a glimmer of success that far exceeds Schotty. Again, I will support him, but I am going on blind faith

Click to expand...

Alex Smith was better than average with Harbaugh. Look at his stats. He had a QB rating of 104 before he was traded. I agree that he's been better in KC, but that's not really my point. Garcia was an above average QB no matter what way you slice it. He's a 4x pro bowler. And like I said, He had his Pro Bowl years before and after Reid.

I stand corrected on Shurmer's Eagles offenses. I remember his 2013 year being very good, but for some reason thought that offense dropped off in 2014. It's a moot point anyways. That was not Shurmer's offense, it was Chip Kelly's and though that scheme masked QB flaws it proved to be unsustainable.

Anyways, this is getting off topic. My point is very rarely do you get top 15 offenses without at least an average qb. Shottenheimer has had the priveledge of working with an average QB once, maybe twice in his career as an OC.

As long as he doesn't have HIS own players flipping him off from the field of play, I think we're moving forward.

Trrrroy":3f2nypbf said:

Scorpion05":3f2nypbf said:

Trrrroy":3f2nypbf said:

Alex smith was good before Reid, look at his Harbaugh years. Garcia was a pro bowl QB before and after Reid. Bortles is essentially Sanchez, who also made the AFC championship game riding an elite defense and running game under Shottenheimer. I'll give you Case Keenum under Pat Shurmer, but that's the exception to the rule. But you can't give Shurmer that without also noting how utterly mediocre his offenses looked with the eagles and browns. As for Foles, we'll see. It's been three games.

Click to expand...

Alex Smith was average with Harbaugh, and even worse before Harbaugh. A complete bust

Garcia was always an average QB. He did however have Terrell Owens and Andy Reid's scheme..I guess

Case Keenum, well that speaks for itself

The Eagles were 2nd in total offense and number 1 in rushing in 2013, with Pat Shurmer as the Offensive coordinator. With Mark Sanchez and Nick Foles leading the way. In 2014 the Eagles were # 5 in total offense. 2015 was Shurmer's worse year, and even that was better than Schotty's best years

So saying the Eagles offense was "utterly mediocre" is not even remotely accurate, or factual. There is at minimum, a glimmer of success that far exceeds Schotty. Again, I will support him, but I am going on blind faith

Click to expand...

Alex Smith was better than average with Harbaugh. Look at his stats. He had a QB rating of 104 before he was traded. I agree that he's been better in KC, but that's not really my point. Garcia was an above average QB no matter what way you slice it. He's a 4x pro bowler. And like I said, He had his Pro Bowl years before and after Reid.

I stand corrected on Shurmer's Eagles offenses. I remember his 2013 year being very good, but for some reason thought that offense dropped off in 2014. It's a moot point anyways. That was not Shurmer's offense, it was Chip Kelly's and though that scheme masked QB flaws it proved to be unsustainable.

Anyways, this is getting off topic. My point is very rarely do you get top 15 offenses without at least an average qb. Shottenheimer has had the priveledge of working with an average QB once, maybe twice in his career as an OC.

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Okay so in a passing league, Alex Smith got benched for a more explosive Kaepernick, in his best year with the Niners. Fine, I'll take it

We're not gonna agree on Jeff Garcia, so we'll leave that alone

Pat Shurmer was the Offensive coordinator for the Eagles. If we're gonna conveniently say that it was Chip Kelly's offense and therefore, dismiss that. Then well, that's still a whole lot more than Schotty has shown, logically.

I don't question that Schotty can call good games. Bevell called good games. You'll always be able to call a good game with a great QB. What I question is Schotty's consistency. Shurmer has proven that he's a capable coordinator. He's had success in more than one location. So he's at least proven something. Schotty has proven nothing. I have to literally nitpick at games to find something good. Look at Blake Bortles and Case Keenum. Look at Nick Foles under Andy Reid and now under Doug Pederson. THAT is coaching. No one is questioning the importance of QB talent, but basically we're saying that Schotty needs PERFECT circumstances to succeed. A good coach can still elevate talent. Even with injuries, or obstacles. I don't see that in Schotty. If he has grown, fantastic. But if I was a gambling man I'd call the first Uber home before I lose any money

What's also sad, is that we selected a coordinator with a clear track record. So we can't even fully evaluate Wilson's ceiling. What a shame, we may be wasting Wilson's prime years and it's pitiful

Ad Hawk":32mztk6n said:

TwistedHusky":32mztk6n said:

Maybe.

But this looks more like Pete trying to force an outdated offensive philosophy on a team that does not have the personnel to execute it.

Click to expand...

Outdated? That's ignorant of the facts of how teams win. Strong defense, Running game, and controlling the clock are essential to winning long-term, through all seasons/weather, and in the playoffs.

Second, we may have the personnel, you just haven't seen them trained correctly or put in a scheme where they can actually be successful.

Third, it doesn't "look" this way at all; you only perceive it that way based on flawed assumptions.

Change the assumptions, and you can enjoy the game much more. Why would you actually want to continue being pessimistic?

Click to expand...

This is an absolutely perfect response ^
Some people WANT to assume the worst; And because Pete didn't hire some sexy name that's been floating around here on the NET for a Week or so, they've fallen into despair, and you're sure as hell ain't going to talk them out of feeling cruddy about the unknown.
I'm feeling optimistic about the big changes, going to take the wait and see if the chemistry comes together.

scutterhawk":1mvme0kh said:

Ad Hawk":1mvme0kh said:

TwistedHusky":1mvme0kh said:

Maybe.

But this looks more like Pete trying to force an outdated offensive philosophy on a team that does not have the personnel to execute it.

Click to expand...

Outdated? That's ignorant of the facts of how teams win. Strong defense, Running game, and controlling the clock are essential to winning long-term, through all seasons/weather, and in the playoffs.

Second, we may have the personnel, you just haven't seen them trained correctly or put in a scheme where they can actually be successful.

Third, it doesn't "look" this way at all; you only perceive it that way based on flawed assumptions.

Change the assumptions, and you can enjoy the game much more. Why would you actually want to continue being pessimistic?

Click to expand...

This is an absolutely perfect response ^
Some people WANT to assume the worst; And because Pete didn't hire some sexy name that's been floating around here on the NET for a Week or so, they've fallen into despair, and you're sure as hell ain't going to talk them out of feeling cruddy about the unknown.
I'm feeling optimistic about the big changes, going to take the wait and see if the chemistry comes together.

Click to expand...

You are misconstruing the problem most fans have with this hire. It isn't because we didn't hire a "sexy name" it is because we hired a re-tread with a long history of failure under his resume. People are calling Pete's ideas on the offense outdated, because his ideas about the passing game are a relic from the 70s. I'm not talking about having a balanced attack either, I'm talking about the idea that you need to keep attacking deep down the field with little regard given to the short, and intermediate routes, and the intricacies of a modern day offensive attack.

We hired two re-treads in Norton, and Schottenheimer. We hired proven mediocrity, I suspect not much will change with this offense. The only hire that really has a good resume behind them is Solari.

Prior to Petes run here you could say the same about him and his antiquated ideals of offense and Simple defense. Yet he made it work, Belichek failed in Cleveland so must be a retread also, most coaches fail before they succeed, many times it's the staff around them that help make them successful and not completely the Coach. Mora was pretty damn good in Atlanta for a while yet we seen what happened in Seattle, although he had a corrupt dealer at the table that set him up for failure before he got a chance really.

chris98251":1niibutd said:

Prior to Petes run here you could say the same about him and his antiquated ideals of offense and Simple defense. Yet he made it work, Belichek failed in Cleveland so must be a retread also, most coaches fail before they succeed, many times it's the staff around them that help make them successful and not completely the Coach. Mora was pretty damn good in Atlanta for a while yet we seen what happened in Seattle, although he had a corrupt dealer at the table that set him up for failure before he got a chance really.

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You keep making this comment, but I'm not seeing it. First of all, Mora only had one season in the NFL above .500. Each year he progressively got worse. Carroll had a record of success everywhere he went as defensive coordinator in the NFL, nobody ever called his defense "antiquated". Carroll was also regarded as one of the best secondary coaches/mentors. He had also built one of the most successful college programs. Carroll, as head coach had a record above .500 in the NFL as well. You keep making this comparison, it holds ZERO ground.

Lets compare Schottenheimers decade long cycle of failures. His most recent being the offensive coordinator of the Bulldogs, which was arguably his biggest failure -- especially when you consider how much the team dipped in offensive production while he was coordinator, and how it jumped back up after he was fired. Carroll, and yes even Belichick had some success in the NFL, Schottenheimer has had none. You're not giving any solid evidence that supports the guys, and that is because there is none. You're just holding out hope that he will magically "get it".

Unfortunately, we heard the warnings about Bevell, and we heard the warnings about Cable from Viking, and Raider fans. Now we are hearing the same kind of rumblings from other fans about Schotenheimer. What makes you think his tenure will be any different? Our head coach has already demonstrated that he has a streaky track record of hiring offensive coaches. You can be hopelessly optimistic, but I predict that you will be one of those screaming loudest of Schottenheimer's head come regular season.