MB on Pete Carroll

Smellyman":149zgr4v said:

Could have fired Bevell and Cable ages ago and all would have been well.

PC overly loyal to coaches moreso than players.

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Yep, he kept a severely underachieving offensive coaching staff around for way too long and it killed the team IMHO.
That doesn’t excuse some players behaviors, but when your coaching staff is not held accountable for their major screw ups, it’s easy to see why some players will go “off the rails” and stop “buying in”.

I just love talking about 49.

Maybe we could set reminders and discuss it once a fortnight? That'd be fun.

rjas77":2zqsp62f said:

With roughly eight minutes left in the 4th, the Offense had a 10 point lead. Truth is it was the D that lost SB 49

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The entire secondary was playing with injuries that most other players wouldnt have dreamed of playing with and the defense was minus a premier pass rusher in Avril and they still gave the offense a 10 point cushion against the greatest coach and QB ever. Damn them for expecting our offense to put up a point or two along the way. The game was lost when our coaching staff called the worst play in football history,,,,,,,on offense.

People seem and act surprised that Bennett and Sherm are talking about Pete for some reason. They wont be the last ones. Theres more to come. The person who said that SB49 destroyed this team was right. Thats on Pete.

Don't think I've ever heard Bennett be a part of the crowd questioning Wilson. He also was one of the players trying to get the team past the SB loss and not festering it.

Now he may have become numb to Pete's messaging, but that's a diff issue. For some reason folks keep lumping Bennett in as a locker room cancer, but I think that's primarily due to their dissatisfaction with his protests on social issues.

IrishNW":3rnjahka said:

Pete's loyalty is his biggest flaw as a coach

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He fired his coordinators and is shipping off his All Pros. I don't think loyalty is his issue.

I don't want to excuse Bennett for doing this or for talking about it publicly, but it is yet another indication of what PC's biggest flaw is as a HC IMO:

He just errs very far to the "let the players be themselves"/"anything goes" side of the leadership equation, and has never seemed to have any desire to balance that "loving mother" style out with "stern father" moments. That works perfectly fine when everything is working, but when things get more challenging everything implodes.

I mean yeah, that Bennett is reading a book while his coach is conducting a team meeting doesn't look good for Bennett, but it's insane that he didn't get kicked out of the meeting and chewed out the first time he tried to pull that stunt. Essentially, from P.C. Bennett learned that he could completely disregard his coach when he felt like it without any consequences.

And Seahawks players over the years have learned that lesson over and over again: If guys are getting in fist fights with each other on the sidelines without consequences, pushing their coaches without consequences, telling national reporters they're going to turn them into their prostitutes without consequences, sitting their reading a book while the coach is addressing the room without consequences, taking dumb penalties all the time without consequences, pretending to to take a sh!t in the endzone without consequences, criticizing each other in the media without consequences, and so on, and so on, and so on, you have made it clear to everyone that they can practically do whatever they want without any repercussions.

I sincerely don't know if PC knows this or not, but if he's jettisoning vet All Pros under the belief that they're just bad seeds and he needs to get them out of there to get the ship back in order, that's a huge mistake. His leadership style creates a lack of accountability, and if he doesn't change that or balance out more he's just going to be restarting with (what are very likely going to be less talented) younger players who will come in and learn all the same lessons and over time in the aggregate have all the same problems.

Maybe he should read a book titled How to not be offsides.

Popeyejones":1vdr4xj9 said:

IrishNW":1vdr4xj9 said:

Pete's loyalty is his biggest flaw as a coach

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He fired his coordinators and is shipping off his All Pros. I don't think loyalty is his issue.

I don't want to excuse Bennett for doing this or for talking about it publicly, but it is yet another indication of what PC's biggest flaw is as a HC IMO:

He just errs very far to the "let the players be themselves"/"anything goes" side of the leadership equation, and has never seemed to have any desire to balance that "loving mother" style out with "stern father" moments. That works perfectly fine when everything is working, but when things get more challenging everything implodes.

I mean yeah, that Bennett is reading a book while his coach is conducting a team meeting doesn't look good for Bennett, but it's insane that he didn't get kicked out of the meeting and chewed out the first time he tried to pull that stunt. Essentially, from P.C. Bennett learned that he could completely disregard his coach when he felt like it without any consequences.

And Seahawks players over the years have learned that lesson over and over again: If guys are getting in fist fights with each other on the sidelines without consequences, pushing their coaches without consequences, telling national reporters they're going to turn them into their prostitutes without consequences, sitting their reading a book while the coach is addressing the room without consequences, taking dumb penalties all the time without consequences, pretending to to take a sh!t in the endzone without consequences, criticizing each other in the media without consequences, and so on, and so on, and so on, you have made it clear to everyone that they can practically do whatever they want without any repercussions.

I sincerely don't know if PC knows this or not, but if he's jettisoning vet All Pros under the belief that they're just bad seeds and he needs to get them out of there to get the ship back in order, that's a huge mistake. His leadership style creates a lack of accountability, and if he doesn't change that or balance out more he's just going to be restarting with (what are very likely going to be less talented) younger players who will come in and learn all the same lessons and over time in the aggregate have all the same problems.

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This shows a real ignorance of Pete Carroll's coaching philosophy.

Also, Bennett & Sherman were let go because they are old . . . not because they are "bad seeds."

hawknation2018":2v0woozj said:

Popeyejones":2v0woozj said:

IrishNW":2v0woozj said:

Pete's loyalty is his biggest flaw as a coach

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He fired his coordinators and is shipping off his All Pros. I don't think loyalty is his issue.

I don't want to excuse Bennett for doing this or for talking about it publicly, but it is yet another indication of what PC's biggest flaw is as a HC IMO:

He just errs very far to the "let the players be themselves"/"anything goes" side of the leadership equation, and has never seemed to have any desire to balance that "loving mother" style out with "stern father" moments. That works perfectly fine when everything is working, but when things get more challenging everything implodes.

I mean yeah, that Bennett is reading a book while his coach is conducting a team meeting doesn't look good for Bennett, but it's insane that he didn't get kicked out of the meeting and chewed out the first time he tried to pull that stunt. Essentially, from P.C. Bennett learned that he could completely disregard his coach when he felt like it without any consequences.

And Seahawks players over the years have learned that lesson over and over again: If guys are getting in fist fights with each other on the sidelines without consequences, pushing their coaches without consequences, telling national reporters they're going to turn them into their prostitutes without consequences, sitting their reading a book while the coach is addressing the room without consequences, taking dumb penalties all the time without consequences, pretending to to take a sh!t in the endzone without consequences, criticizing each other in the media without consequences, and so on, and so on, and so on, you have made it clear to everyone that they can practically do whatever they want without any repercussions.

I sincerely don't know if PC knows this or not, but if he's jettisoning vet All Pros under the belief that they're just bad seeds and he needs to get them out of there to get the ship back in order, that's a huge mistake. His leadership style creates a lack of accountability, and if he doesn't change that or balance out more he's just going to be restarting with (what are very likely going to be less talented) younger players who will come in and learn all the same lessons and over time in the aggregate have all the same problems.

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This shows a real ignorance of Pete Carroll's coaching philosophy.

Also, Bennett & Sherman were let go because they are old . . . not because they are "bad seeds."

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There is truth in Popeye's summary, however. But I also think its the gamble PC takes with his players. He let's them be themselves, trusts that the approach will help them be better players. And it worked.. until it didnt.

What i disagree with is suggesting he needs to somehow change. Why? Change for guys who couldn't handle the freedoms they were given? Just bring in new players who respect the process and what they have been afforded.

Coaches do this all the time. Why does PC have to be the one to change?

Uncle Si":1iuz52dq said:

But I also think its the gamble PC takes with his players. He let's them be themselves, trusts that the approach will help them be better players. And it worked.. until it didnt.

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Yeah, I think this style of leadership always works until it doesn't. I saw it back when I used to coach football, and I see it all the time in my occupation -- being the "cool teacher" works great in the beginning of the semester, but if you're the "cool teacher" and don't set any disciplinary standards at the outset (or that you're not incredibly and consistently firm on) by the end of the semester your classroom is an unmitigated disaster. It's almost always the first mistake every new boss makes too, and it's a ship that's incredibly hard to get back on course once it gets off track.

Uncle Si":1iuz52dq said:

What i disagree with is suggesting he needs to somehow change. Why? Change for guys who couldn't handle the freedoms they were given? Just bring in new players who respect the process and what they have been afforded.

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The issue with this is that the vast majority of people (let alone guys in their 20s) don't have the self-discipline and self-motivation to not let leadership styles rub off on them.

Sure, there's some people like that out there, but if your leadership style demands only taking on those types of charges, you're going to have to give up something else to get that. In the NFL if you're leadership style requires only the most straight-arrow choirboys who are impervious to what's going on around them, you're going to have to sacrifice talent, ability, and athleticism to fill a roster with 53 of those guys.

I'm very open to being disagreed with about the following example, but it is something I believe.

Here it is:

I think we can all agree that in addition to being a heck of a player, Bobby Wagner is a guy who seems to *get it* and have his head screwed on straight. I just don't think a guy like Bobby Wagner would have responded negatively in-kind on Twitter to Earl Thomas saying he shouldn't have played if he wasn't six years into seeing that anything goes under PC's leadership. He's enough of a self-possessed guy to delete the tweet after writing it, but that he even wrote isn't something that I think would have ever happened in the first place if he had spent the last six years operating under Belichick's tightest of ships instead of six years under PC's loosest of ships.

That there's "always something" happening with the Seahawks isn't just random chance, IMO. The team, overall, has always been talented but undisciplined. You see it in offsides penalties, in sideline fights, in social media firestorms, and apparently even in a star player straight up using team meetings as personal time to read a book. It's just everywhere. That's leadership.

Uncle Si":1iuz52dq said:

Coaches do this all the time. Why does PC have to be the one to change?

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I think we can legitimately disagree about if PC's leadership style leads to behavioral problems among his charges or not. I can think that's true and you can think that's not true and both positions are totally legitimate.

I don't think we can, however, legitimately disagree about if "coaches do this all the time" or not. They simply don't.

Pete Carroll is known both among Seahawks fans and all over the NFL as the ultimate player's coach. Everybody knows it. When the Hawks were crushing it Seahawks fans loved to crow about PC's style and how every player in the NFL wanted to come play for the Seahawks. Hawks fans loved to crow about how revolutionary it was that PC just let's everyone "be themselves."

Simply put, Hawks fans can't spend years talking about how atypical PC is while it's working, and then turn around and insist he's not atypical at all when cracks of it not working start to show.

Is it a problem or not is absolutely something we can debate (and which I might be very wrong about), but is it even a thing or not isn't really up for debate, IMO.

It came down to pre-big contract and post big contract. Pre? Everything came out of Pete’s mouth was gold, post? Gold turned into shit.

Not complicated at all.


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This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves. The only problem is that once these players develop and become successful, their egos and chips on their shoulders get the better of them and they tune Pete out because they get tired of the same old message that Pete sends.

I am excited about where this team is moving because it is starting to feel like when PC/JS first got here and churned the roster over with new young hungry talent. The only difference now is that we have a franchise QB in his prime to go along with this rebuild.

toffee":2vte8r1p said:

It came down to pre-big contract and post big contract. Pre? Everything came out of Pete’s mouth was gold, post? Gold turned into shit.

Not complicated at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Exactly. I've said this many times over the years. It's hard to feel hungry when you are rolling in cash. Bennett is weak minded and is suffering from sour grapes syndrome. Predictable.

Cyrus12":cdi6psyt said:

All comes back to the play in sb49. It will haunt this team until there's no one left that was part of it.

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Seems to be haunting some fans, too.

Ace_Rimmer":x352a0ge said:

This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves. The only problem is that once these players develop and become successful, their egos and chips on their shoulders get the better of them and they tune Pete out because they get tired of the same old message that Pete sends.

I am excited about where this team is moving because it is starting to feel like when PC/JS first got here and churned the roster over with new young hungry talent. The only difference now is that we have a franchise QB in his prime to go along with this rebuild.

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I agree with this. I'd like the Front Office to go back to acquiring 10+ draft picks every year, including extra 3rd-5ths, and spend them on young kids on cheap 4-5 year rookie contracts. And unless one of those kids is a standout, i.e, an All-Pro who deserves a fat second contract, let them walk when the time comes for their second contract and take the comp pick and add them back into your pool.

The Patriots have been successful with an All World QB, an All World TE, and no one else on the roster worth giving a big contract to, but lots of new guys to churn through every year....I think it's a damn fine model to emulate.

Now it is two former players. More to come.

1) The Play absolutely contributed to the decline.
2) Not holding coaches responsible contributed even more.

The players are grown men. They are professionals. They KNOW what happened and who was responsible. Why buy in when you see a double standard?

Popeyejones":1zfiv5i9 said:

Uncle Si":1zfiv5i9 said:

Coaches do this all the time. Why does PC have to be the one to change?

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I think we can legitimately disagree about if PC's leadership style leads to behavioral problems among his charges or not. I can think that's true and you can think that's not true and both positions are totally legitimate.

I don't think we can, however, legitimately disagree about if "coaches do this all the time" or not. They simply don't.

Pete Carroll is known both among Seahawks fans and all over the NFL as the ultimate player's coach. Everybody knows it. When the Hawks were crushing it Seahawks fans loved to crow about PC's style and how every player in the NFL wanted to come play for the Seahawks. Hawks fans loved to crow about how revolutionary it was that PC just let's everyone "be themselves."

Simply put, Hawks fans can't spend years talking about how atypical PC is while it's working, and then turn around and insist he's not atypical at all when cracks of it not working start to show.

Is it a problem or not is absolutely something we can debate (and which I might be very wrong about), but is it even a thing or not isn't really up for debate, IMO.

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You misunderstood by not taking the statement in the context it was provided...

"Just bring in new players who respect the process and what they have been afforded."

Coaches do THIS all the time (while the "process" may differ, coaches often move on from players who don't subscribe to it)... Belichek being highly acclaimed for it.

So... the rest of your assumptive diatribe not only ignores what I said but also contradicts the initial aspects of my post.

"But I also think its the gamble PC takes with his players. He let's them be themselves, trusts that the approach will help them be better players. And it worked.. until it didnt."

If PC wants to run through cycles of players.. maximizing their individuality until it overcomes the environment... and wins while doing it, even for a short term.. well.. that's his prerogative as coach

WmHBonney":3ljzjsmg said:

Now it is two former players. More to come.

1) The Play absolutely contributed to the decline.
2) Not holding coaches responsible contributed even more.

The players are grown men. They are professionals. They KNOW what happened and who was responsible. Why buy in when you see a double standard?

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This line of thinking is for the weak minded and those who will never be leaders of men. MB and Sherman have clearly illustrated time and again that they are not grown men and in fact have a lot of maturing to do before they could ever claim to be so. They are also only professionals by way of the league they play in, but not by any real standard of character. You don't air dirty laundry because someone hurt your feelings. It is petty and shows a lack of self-discipline.

Haha...this topic has so many layers and you can see if thru all the comments.

First, to lump all young players will buy in while the vets don't is too broad of a statement. KJ and BWags are just as old as Sherm and MB, but they still buy in don't they?

Second, allowing players to be themselves, to express themselves is ok...by any means because it allows the players to be themselves and player full speed. No one complained about Sherm and his Twitter war with Patrick Peterson, Megatron, etc. No one complained when he went after Brady...U Mad Bro. No one complained when he called out Crabtree...mediocre. I thought the NFL Sound FX sound bites were absolute funny.

No. you can express yourself as long as you protect the team and for the last couple of years, PC had brought Sherm into his office and Sherm went rogue and made these comments and many fans bought in as if what he's saying is all true. It's not. a its Sherm being Sherem but instead of going off on opponents, he went after his coach and teammates.

That's a major distraction.

So, IMHO, you're either All In or not, regardless of whether your a vet-Sherm or MB, or a rookie-Soon to be released McDowell.

Milehighhawk":13e907vm said:

WmHBonney":13e907vm said:

Now it is two former players. More to come.

1) The Play absolutely contributed to the decline.
2) Not holding coaches responsible contributed even more.

The players are grown men. They are professionals. They KNOW what happened and who was responsible. Why buy in when you see a double standard?

Click to expand...

This line of thinking is for the weak minded and those who will never be leaders of men. MB and Sherman have clearly illustrated time and again that they are not grown men and in fact have a lot of maturing to do before they could ever claim to be so. They are also only professionals by way of the league they play in, but not by any real standard of character. You don't air dirty laundry because someone hurt your feelings. It is petty and shows a lack of self-discipline.

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FWIW, I don't think the NFL itself really fosters the same level of professionalism that many of aspire to because it is fundamentally different as a profession. Sports entertainers have the immense privilege of simultaneously being very talented in their jobs and being outspoken and obnoxious knuckleheads. Given the constraints of the NFL labor market, the value approximations revolving around professionalism are skewed to put up with a lot more junk than many of us could relate to.

This isn't to knock an aspirational standard but to contextualize why some players may never get over that hump in maturity - if their talents are that good their professionalism is secondary given the desperation of NFL teams to accrue talent.

You are either on board with the program, or you won't be there.

When Pete took over, he cleaned house of anyone that didn't buy in. T.J. Houshmandzadeh was one that was cut primarily for that reason. He came in as a free agent for the prior administration but was gone shortly after their arrival because he had an attitude issue during the initial meeting. I would have an issue with Bennett if he was reading a book during a meeting. Frankly, the fact that Pete got something for trading him is a good thing.

The Play - if people are still affected by it, then they don't understand football. You can make a bad call and that was one, but you have to move on and make a better decision the next time. You can have a bad play as a player, that was also one, but too many people focus on Russ in that scenario and not Ricardo. He needed to out muscle the defender for that ball and he got punked. I think Ricardo could have been a hero in that situation, but instead he was sent flailing. You also can't do what the defense expects you to do (run Lynch) especially in a situation when it isn't guaranteed to be successful.

Holding coaches accountable - This is an issue I have with the regime. Our offense suffered for too long. It isn't suitable for the talent we have on the field and has to be adjusted. I'm not sure if this is a Pete thing or an offensive scheme thing but it needs to be refreshed this year and should be looked at every year. I think they got too comfortable with what they were doing during the good years. They need to change some things up, make it less predictable and allow us some more success especially early in a game.