MB on Pete Carroll

twisted_steel2

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TwistedHusky":3op61vdv said:
Here were some quality players on this team:

Lynch - Carroll traded for Lynch
Thomas - Carroll drafted him
Sherman - Carroll drafted him
Chancellor - Carroll drafted him
Wilson - Carroll drafted him
Wagner - Carroll drafted him

At least 4 of the above were borderline HOF players, that does not include guys like Graham or Bennett.

How much credit do you feel is appropriate for a coach that underachieved with that much talent?

And Carroll built that historically good defense, designed it, picked every player...

That was his team from top to bottom, that went to back to back SB's.

Man, some of you are acting like he's Barry Switzer and just rode the existing talent, team, system to wins! Like he came out of nowhere and just auto-piloted it to victories. :34853_doh:

So how much credit does he get? All of it. And as the top personnel guy, and the head coach, he gets all the blame for their failures too. I'm sure he'd be the first one to take all that blame.
 

NJlargent

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twisted_steel2":29ss7e8i said:
NJlargent":29ss7e8i said:
Twisted is correct. Sherman earned the right to criticize (even excessively) the team. He was far more influential in that super bowl ring than Pete Carroll ever was. He was the face of those SB teams (along with Lynch). It’s amazing we find losing Sherman acceptable and get excited over shottenheimer. Good lord.

You literally think Sherman deserves more credit in earning the SB victory than Carroll?

And therefore b/c of that, he gets the right to excessively criticize the team and coaches publicly, like on the sidelines and to the press?

:Dunno: Okey dokey.

I do. I think that team carried Carroll. There is certainly objective evidence supporting it, such as an underachieving team the past few seasons. Plus Sherman bailed him with the tip because he was flat outcoached by Harbaugh that game. If Carroll was an all world coach, the regression the past 3 years would have halted. A good coach calls timeout and turns around momentum.

I don’t think the shenanigans on the sideline were earned or appropriate. Sherman should have kept criticism off the field.
 

twisted_steel2

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NJlargent":3awruuqx said:
twisted_steel2":3awruuqx said:
NJlargent":3awruuqx said:
Twisted is correct. Sherman earned the right to criticize (even excessively) the team. He was far more influential in that super bowl ring than Pete Carroll ever was. He was the face of those SB teams (along with Lynch). It’s amazing we find losing Sherman acceptable and get excited over shottenheimer. Good lord.

You literally think Sherman deserves more credit in earning the SB victory than Carroll?

And therefore b/c of that, he gets the right to excessively criticize the team and coaches publicly, like on the sidelines and to the press?

:Dunno: Okey dokey.

I do. I think that team carried Carroll. There is certainly objective evidence supporting it, such as an underachieving team the past few seasons. Plus Sherman bailed him with the tip because he was flat outcoached by Harbaugh that game. If Carroll was an all world coach, the regression the past 3 years would have halted. A good coach calls timeout and turns around momentum.

Who built that team?

Who drafted Sherman?

Who coached Sherman?

Who designed that defense Sherman was in?

Who made sure Sherman was prepared to be in that position for the tip?

Sherman was/is a great player, but he was only part of the system that made that team so special. And you're not acknowledging the person who built and designed the system.

Look, Carroll has flaws, but I think some people are looking, concentrating, and just obsessing over them so freakin' hard, they are losing track of the big picture. Of how much the Caroll era Seahawks has achieved.
 

TwistedHusky

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He built fantastically talented team that was tremendous for 2 years but then barely was able to get to the wildcard for 3.

Makes my point. He is great at finding greatness, developing it, honing it. Not that great at using it once he has it built.

Lots of promise, some amazing flashes of greatness on the teams - but no consistency.

What Carroll does well, is put great players in a position to make plays. And he absolutely makes some players great (Browner is a good example). But with that many great players, he underachieves.

I am not saying he needs SB wins to validate what he does. But for H sake, a team with that many great players should not get absolutely run out of the building in every game past the wildcard.

His great players are slowly vanishing off the roster and he is simply not a great gameday coach. He needs a stronger roster and he will not have one.

He does less with more. But he has had a lot more 'more' on his roster to compensate for it. Now he won't.
 

mrt144

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Uncle Si":3hg87v1b said:
TwistedHusky":3hg87v1b said:
Here were some quality players on this team:

Lynch
Thomas
Sherman
Chancellor
Wilson
Wagner

At least 4 of the above were borderline HOF players, that does not include guys like Graham or Bennett.

How much credit do you feel is appropriate for a coach that underachieved with that much talent?


He underachieved?

in comparison to one other program...

get a grip... the long winding diatribes aren't as interesting when they don't have substance

Why thank you! ;)
 

hawk45

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sc85sis":3fbikl2o said:
Sherm and MB are two of the players who’ve taken the most (potentially undue) advantage of Pete being willing to let guys be themselves, yet they are now criticizing him. To me that says far more about them than it does about Pete.

Hopefully some day they’ll look back and realize just how lucky they were to play for a coach who truly gives a d*** about his players.

^^^ Well done.

And Pete has refrained from giving into temptation and saying anything that could remotely be construed as negative about departing players on their way out.

Pete runs a loose ship with respect to personalities. There are pluses and minuses, mostly pluses from this fan's perspective. But the way he has handled himself through the MB and Sherman swipes - though that kind of thing has to irk him - has done nothing but increase my respect for the guy. And the way he cut loose his coordinators after a lackluster season where we spent $$$ on the OL has definitely put him on the sunny side of me.
 

pittpnthrs

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Uncle Si":2nhgfekz said:
He underachieved?

in comparison to one other program...

He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.
 

jammerhawk

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Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?

So if I understand if he makes the playoffs in a stronger conference than the AFC but fails to win a SB every year he does he's under achieving? Sure, Whatever?
 

TwistedHusky

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Compared to the quality of the roster he had and the success half the coaches in the league would have had with it.
 

jammerhawk

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Your opinion, however you are on record of thinking he sucks.

Name those coaches!
 

TwistedHusky

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Where have I gone on record saying he sucks?

I said he underachieves vs the quality of his talent, which he has done since USC. But he does tend to have more talent, which is clearly an asset he brings to the table to compensate.

I do think his philosophy and tendency to focus on one strategy regardless of the roster, is old and tired. I think he is nowhere near as good as he used to be. But I don't think he sucks.

I think he has very specific weaknesses. He has other strengths that hopefully compensate for it. But most of those strengths involve developing a strong roster and that roster is pretty thin right now. Lately he has not been very good at the very things he is supposed to be good at.

Which means he is not bringing much to the table lately, and that coincides with the garbage football we were subjected to for the past 2 years.
 

Jville

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There is also the view that many players (coaches) become "over rated" because of what Pete creates for them to become successful.

I continue to suspect Pete and John fell at least a year behind in culling the roster. Maybe two.
 

pittpnthrs

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jammerhawk":2up86f9a said:
Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?

Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.
 

cymatica

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pittpnthrs":dona3vqx said:
jammerhawk":dona3vqx said:
Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?

Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.

How is it underachieving when Pete started from scratch, while the other coaches were already well established? Blind stats don't mean anything
 

toffee

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You guys reminded me of how fans drove Bill Walsh out of town, claiming he was destroying the team by trading away stars like Joe Montana, and how stars from Montana down stopped listening to Walsh.

And of course Walsh under achieved with all those stars.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

truehawksfan

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Did the team underachieve last year? Not sure because the team was 3 missed field goals from being an 11 win team. So, I guess our kicker underachieve? Or was he a head case who simply lost it after the playoff miss/debacle?

The two biggest issues for the past 2-3 years is the Oline. Did they underachieve or was it poor drafting or poor coaching. If the OLine performs well in 2018 with one major change, DJ Fluker, then...is it underachieving or poor coaching?

And, what about the run game? Did they underachieve or was it injuries? We ssw a small sample size of what Chris Carsen and CJ Prosise are capable of doing, so if they are healthy and the run emerges...

And, did the defense underachieve for the past years? In 2016 and 2017, ET, Kam, KJ, Avril, MB, Sherm, etc., missed significant PT. So was it underachieve or did injuries to All Pro/Pro Bowl players have anything to do with it?

I'll agree, to a certain point about questionable drafts, questionable coaching, hanging onto players too long, but to say underachieve while not mentioning these other obvious issues that brought the team to what they are now....
 

Sports Hernia

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Fade":3dt9fc3e said:
--> Pete's lack of accountability with the coaching staff costing the team games. <--

90% of the teams problems, and a lot of Ls stem from this over the years. Not just 1 game.

It's not just about that 1 game, or that 1 play, but MULTIPLE GAMES. Which led to this behavior and the players acting out. Flipping birds, Reading books in meeting rooms, getting in multiple shouting matches with coaches, calling out coaches, shoving coaches, and who knows what else. (I may have forgotten some.)

It's hard to trust coaches when you know they constantly screw it up, and will screw it up again.

Pete fired, or let go damn near most of his coaching staff this off-season. And with good reason he had to. He couldn't just get rid of a couple of star players or he would of had a mutiny on his hands.

It was turning into a mutiny pretty much last year. Pete is trying to reel things back in, we'll see how it goes.

The Seahawks objectively had one of the worst coaching staffs in the league last year. They were getting out schemed & coached nearly every week. The players aren't stupid they knew it too. Losing Quinn & Norton took a toll on the Defense, and Cable+Bevell is about as bad as it can get for any Offense.

It will be better next year, but I am unsure of by how much.

I am not a fan of the Air Coryell that Schotty brings with him. Russ is built for the WCO, either Shanny's, or Andy Reed's variation, that is RW's fit. Russ is talented so he can make any system work, but what I don't understand is why Pete likes to make it harder on his players, instead of easier?

Norton is a wild card, I could see it working, he plays the bad cop, Pete plays the good cop. It seemed though down in OAK he was over-matched by opposing OCs so we'll see.

Solari is just a nice solid O-Line coach and a definite upgrade over Cable.

If they still can't run the ball, and the offense is a mess, I think Pete is done here. I am honestly not concerned with W-L record in 2018. I just want to see significant progress running the football. He has had 3 yrs to build a running game, and it just keeps getting worse. They couldn't run the ball before Lynch showed up, and they can't run the ball after Lynch left.
So much this! Money post sir! :2thumbs:
 

chris98251

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SoulfishHawk":1v8g4yu2 said:
2017 Draft is looking pretty good. Minus the Malik debacle.

Scot was hired as a consultant after his dismissel from Washington..............................
 

pittpnthrs

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chris98251":1gy9bw8c said:
SoulfishHawk":1gy9bw8c said:
2017 Draft is looking pretty good. Minus the Malik debacle.

Scot was hired as a consultant after his dismissel from Washington..............................

Lol, was he? I wasn't aware. Makes it all that much more obvious.
 

Spin Doctor

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The NFL is a cruel league. Yesterdays heroes are today's scapegoats, yesterdays revelry is today's existential dread. The brightest of stars burn brightly, and fade away shortly thereafter --- vilified by the same fan base that once worshiped them. The Carroll era is a most interesting case of this phenomenon. He built a historically great team, and had a defense that was number 1 for an unprecedented amount of time. Even the players that we have had to let go due to being stacked at virtually every position have carved out a successful career for themselves. We, the ringless Seahawks curb stomped Peyton Manning and his "historically great" offense. I think only one coach could have brought us such satisfying moments, and such thrilling games, that coach being Pete Carroll. I think it is important to remember the good times we've had with him as coach. All that being said I fear that the best is behind the Pete Carroll Seahawks. Nothing gold can stay, time has moved on. Pete Carroll has failed to adapt, for all the good he has done for this franchise -- it is time to finish this chapter of the ongoing Seahawks novel.

Carroll has lost his edge. It is clear to me that Carroll is no longer having fun. This season he looked checked out at times. His wrinkles looked deeper -- his youthful enthusiasm was turned to apathy or rage. Quite frankly -- I'm surprised he stuck around for another year. He is currently the oldest coach in the NFL, and he has finally started to look his age. Moreover, since the questionable call in the Super Bowl something has not been right with this team. We started hearing rumors of rifts, that appear to have been based in reality. Players openly started questioning each other, and in the case of the offense started throwing jabs at the offense. Players such as Marshawn openly disrespected Bevell. Carroll failed, rather spectacularly down the stretch at managing these big personalities. Little cracks in the chemistry turned into fissures. Players such as Bennett openly admitted to ignoring team meetings -- I think this is the case for other players as well. None of our defensive line played with any semblance of gap integrity or discipline last season. Pete Carroll, and his handpicked staff have lost control of this team.

As a result we are shipping off our entire core of players, and two more may never play another down again due to injuries. If Carroll had another four years to rebuild, and reshape the team as he did in 2010 I would be down with him staying. Unfortunately, I don't think he has that time, nor does he look like he wants to be around the NFL for that much longer. I feel as if I'm watching a lame duck coach at the moment. I don't think he has any plans on staying in the league for much longer, especially given on how he doubled down on the 2017 season -- with little regards for tomorrow. The coaches he brought in to replace Bevell and Richards screamed last ditch effort. He hired two, old school militaristic style coaches --- a huge departure from the laid persona's of Richards, and Bevell. These two coaches have not had much success at their jobs, but they sure as hell got the respect from the players wherever they went.

Carroll seems like a coach that is struggling to remain in control of his team. He has lost a lot of credibility over the years due to his poor, unorthodox drafts, and poor in game decision making -- including "the play". All of the goodwill he has gained in the eyes of the league has been replaced by the shadow of that fated Super Bowl. Among NFL fans, Carroll is viewed now as a punch line, rather than by his stellar record in college play, and the NFL since 2010. This view among fans is quite troublesome, because one would have to imagine that the same thoughts resonate among college players, and NFL players alike. Why this is troublesome, is the fact that Pete Carroll has struggled with the same problems in his past tenures. Once things start going downhill, they snowball out of control as far as Pete Carroll is concerned. It is quite clear that he is not the right man for the job anymore. I am thankful for what he has done, but I think it is time to put old yeller out to pasture, and move on. I will always hold fond memories of Pete Carroll, and be thankful for what he did, and what he created. We have earned our mark in the history books, and among the pantheon of NFL legends. Sad is it may be though, that time is up, and we must move on --- as time has run its course.
 
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