MB on Pete Carroll

It amazes me how many people actually DO think they know more than John or Pete :roll:

Ad Hawk":1neosibb said:

Spin Doctor":1neosibb said:

I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.

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You cannot honestly believe they're "swinging blindly". They know far more than you do.

Nobody, even those with the most information, can accurately predict who will and who will not succeed. The number of UDFAs who end up making it big, and top-ranked picks that fail, are proof of that.

We'd all love every pick to become a pro-bowler. It will never happen, and the sooner expectations become realistic, the sooner hyperbole around here ends.

Pete and John are not on their last legs with this draft, no matter how you try to spin it. Hoping it will be the case will not make it so, either.

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So in a roundabout way, Pete should probably get better at the tactical aspects of the NFL since he can't rely on absurdly good drafts time and time again?

Am I doing this right?

mrt144":3kf73roh said:

Ad Hawk":3kf73roh said:

Spin Doctor":3kf73roh said:

I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.

Click to expand...

You cannot honestly believe they're "swinging blindly". They know far more than you do.

Nobody, even those with the most information, can accurately predict who will and who will not succeed. The number of UDFAs who end up making it big, and top-ranked picks that fail, are proof of that.

We'd all love every pick to become a pro-bowler. It will never happen, and the sooner expectations become realistic, the sooner hyperbole around here ends.

Pete and John are not on their last legs with this draft, no matter how you try to spin it. Hoping it will be the case will not make it so, either.

Click to expand...

So in a roundabout way, Pete should probably get better at the tactical aspects of the NFL since he can't rely on absurdly good drafts time and time again?

Am I doing this right?

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And while he's at it, find a way to prevent all injuries (read: create good luck), give superpowers to all our players, and create world peace. Oh, and bring home a Lombardi every year they lead the team, since we've had nothing but the best players ever assembled on a team at one time.

Yep, you may just be on the right track. That seems to be the narrative some suggest for PCJS, otherwise they're failures.

Sigh...

semiahmoo":2w4dnp3e said:

Sure seems like this team was a lot more messy behind the scenes than some wanted to admit.

Funny how the truth comes out.

Don't think Pete can put this Humpty Dumpty back together again but I'd love for him to prove me wrong...

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messy because two malcontent players were sent packing and have acted poorly on their way out?

good gracious...

chris98251":1hi4ig5g said:

Kam would have never been a Safety, Sherman would never have been drafted and given a chance ton play CB if even picked up as a WR. We would have seen no Clemens and Bryant as a Leo. The vison was great in the beginning, another coaching staff would have never used these guys the way they were used.

The problem was the patting themselves on the back and thinking they could work miracles with every player I think became a issue and we lost focus on what we were doing after the league began to copy cat us on size and speed and we never adjusted and were looking at bargains all the time.

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This is pretty much where I’m at. They caught lightning in a bottle and hit with guys like Sherman and Baldwin exceeding all possible expectations. And then it seemed like they got dependent on that strategy working consistently. When you hit and it works, great. But when you start giving up the potential for proven talent to take those risks, you better keep hitting or this is where you end up.

The 2010 draft was so much fun, and seems like a lifetime ago.

hawknation2018":3th7m4qh said:

Fade":3th7m4qh said:

I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point

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Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.

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"Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

2010-2012 was a long time ago.

Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
They are now in re-build mode.

Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.

then so should all the success...

Fade":263mizyy said:

hawknation2018":263mizyy said:

Fade":263mizyy said:

I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point

Click to expand...

Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.

Click to expand...

"Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

2010-2012 was a long time ago.

Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
They are now in re-build mode.

Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.

Click to expand...

Well said.

It was said here by me and others at least two seasons ago that Pete's act had grown tired with some important players on the team. That has been proven to be undeniably true.

I like Pete Caroll. I think most players do as well. It just seems fewer and fewer continued to respect him.

It happens. Even Belichick's system is being challenged of late. The difference is Belichick will nip that in the bud. Pete let things fester and we've paid the price the last couple seasons. Perhaps he's got some of that old fire back in his own belly and will rally with a strong season. I hope so but I don't believe so...

semiahmoo":3rpry8ik said:

Fade":3rpry8ik said:

hawknation2018":3rpry8ik said:

Fade":3rpry8ik said:

I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point

Click to expand...

Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.

Click to expand...

"Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

2010-2012 was a long time ago.

Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
They are now in re-build mode.

Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.

Click to expand...

Well said.

It was said here by me and others at least two seasons ago that Pete's act had grown tired with some important players on the team. That has been proven to be undeniably true.

I like Pete Caroll. I think most players do as well. It just seems fewer and fewer continued to respect him.

It happens. Even Belichick's system is being challenged of late. The difference is Belichick will nip that in the bud. Pete let things fester and we've paid the price the last couple seasons. Perhaps he's got some of that old fire back in his own belly and will rally with a strong season. I hope so but I don't believe so...

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Yeah, interested in seeing how the Brady Gronk situation plays out.

Fade":26vbf8jw said:

hawknation2018":26vbf8jw said:

Fade":26vbf8jw said:

I think Pete is an excellent big picture guy, and defensive mastermind. I think his GM skills are suspect at this point

Click to expand...

Carroll is one of the best talent evaluators in the game. The 2010-12 classes were so strong, in part, because Carroll knew the players since they were in high school and was exercising de facto GM responsibilities. When Carroll has made picks recently, they've almost all turned out well, i.e. Chris Carson with a late 7th round pick last year.

Click to expand...

"Was" one of the best evaluators in the game.

2010-2012 was a long time ago.

Giving away cap space to guys like Carry Williams, Joekel, J'Marcus Webb, etc. Signings that ruined their cap.
They are now in re-build mode.

Pete is now at this stage a suspect personnel man. Too many bad moves over the last 5 seasons outweigh any of the good moves he has made over that same time span. This is Pete's show, the blame falls on him.

Click to expand...

After 2012, Schneider took a more outsized role in the front office. And he has been above average in that role.

It would be foolish to pin those more recent moves on Carroll, particuarily as it relates to free agency evaluation. That has almost always been Schneider's domain, with a few exceptions, like Marshawn Lynch. Schneider has had some very good hits in free agency, as well, including Michael Bennett.

When people talk about Scot McCloughan, they are ignoring the forest for the trees. McCloughan's exodus was merely a symptom of a much larger change in the decision making process. Going forward, no longer were there two advisors, sharing responsibilities, while Carroll pulled the trigger.

The way it used to be was untenable. The most obvious reason for that is because player evaluation is a huge time suck for a head coach. Carroll was no longer as familiar with the players coming out in the draft because he hadn't recruited them when they were were in high school and he was at USC. And the Seahawks were battling for championships on the field. This necessitated Carroll's move to the war room, while Schneider took over the front office.

Another less-discussed reason is the nature of institutional mobility and promotion. If you want to keep employees, there is no way to restrain the decision making process. If they had, neither McCloughan nor Schneider would be with the Seahawks today. Successful people want more power and autonomy. That meant going from a virtual democracy, but with Carroll at the top of the pyramid, to Schneider calling most of the shots.

We saw this same phenomenon play out with the defensive coaching staff. Norton and Richard were the closest coaches to the players. When they were sharing responsibilities, behind Quinn and Carroll, the defense was at its strongest. But the exodus of Quinn meant that one would have to be promoted over the other, if the team hoped to keep either coach.

Fade":3eaawezg said:

I would love to see Pete removed from the offensive side of the ball.

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The offensive side of the ball is already the area where Carroll has asserted the least influence. All he wants is for the offense to be good at both running and throwing the ball. Unfortunately, the previous offensive coordinator just wasn't any good. The one thing I will say about Schottenheimer is that his style of play is a lot more physical, much less finesse than the previous regime.

Ad Hawk":1191z6bs said:

Spin Doctor":1191z6bs said:

I want them to stop swinging blindly, and start hedging their bets. Picking up these athletic freaks, and trouble players (injury or personality) is okay, so long as you also pick solid players that have a good chance at contributing in conjunction with these high risk, high reward players.

Click to expand...

You cannot honestly believe they're "swinging blindly". They know far more than you do.

Nobody, even those with the most information, can accurately predict who will and who will not succeed. The number of UDFAs who end up making it big, and top-ranked picks that fail, are proof of that.

We'd all love every pick to become a pro-bowler. It will never happen, and the sooner expectations become realistic, the sooner hyperbole around here ends.

Pete and John are not on their last legs with this draft, no matter how you try to spin it. Hoping it will be the case will not make it so, either.

Click to expand...

Of course Pete Carroll, and John Schneider know more than me -- if they did not I would be concerned. I come with no pretenses of being a football savant or with the delusions of being a soothsayer. They are professionals that have dedicated their entire lives to their craft -- and they have an entire organization helping them pan for gold. Like Carroll and Schneider all I can do is make an educated guesses based on the information that I do know. Hell, I thought Pete Carroll looked like he was ready to retire after the circus that was 2017, given the moves the Seahawks made and body language from Carroll. Turns out I was wrong on this account. People get things wrong all of the time, but unfortunately in Pete's position, making the wrong call can have dire consequences to the health of his organization, and credibility as a head coach. I also have the luxury of looking hindsight, something they don't have.

In this case hindsight does not look down favorably upon Carroll's drafting since the class of 2012. We get to see cause and effect play out. His first few years he killed it, but ever since the draft of 2012, Carroll and Schneider have had a terrible track record in the draft. That early success Carroll captured in the draft is starting to look more and more like an aberration at this point. We've had three years of really poor drafts (jury is still out on '16, and '17), and now this team has become old and frail. The stars we once had have burnt out -- and our replacements for these players are not there, nor is any sort of depth. Carroll has ignored some HUGE red flags for some of these prospects. Christine Micheal for example, was a player that had a hard time understanding the basic NFL playbook. He also came with some character concerns -- and inconsistency in college. These same issues manifested themselves in the NFL. McDowell also had shown immaturity, and the tendency to take plays off in college. He had a lot of character concerns, and now we're getting information that he had the worst interviews that many scouts, and GM's around the league have ever seen.

Carroll and Schneider have been doing the NFL equivalent to the hail mary in the draft by taking raw talent with injury concerns, glaring character problems, or both, and having that be the predominate draft strategy. I'm all okay with that being part of the draft strategy, but ultimately Carroll, and Schneider have outsmarted themselves the last few years by trying to catch lightning in a bottle, and trading high draft picks for expensive vets who didn't fit our system. If this draft is not at decent, Carroll can kiss his career in the NFL goodbye given the downward trajectory of the Seahawks since 2014. If we don't get some talent and role players here --- expect losing seasons in the future.

Ace_Rimmer":1yeu01rw said:

This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.

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That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.

Eltagi":tbyas75q said:

Ace_Rimmer":tbyas75q said:

This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.

Click to expand...

That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.

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But it won a Super Bowl...

so clearly it is a good approach to management.

One play from back to back titles and playoffs almost every year under Carroll and JS. Yeah, what a horrible approach :?
Other than the Pats, you could argue that the Hawks have been the most successful team in the league in the last several years. But hey, no matter WHAT they do in this upcoming draft, we'll get to hear people whine and moan like they actually already KNOW that the draft isn't a good one. Before any of these guys even take the field. :roll:

Uncle Si":apzsm4xq said:

Eltagi":apzsm4xq said:

Ace_Rimmer":apzsm4xq said:

This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.

Click to expand...

That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.

Click to expand...

But it won a Super Bowl...

so clearly it is a good approach to management.

Click to expand...

It's both.

The gray area lies in the sustainability, not the approach. Obviously Pete's coaching style helped build one of the most dominant and successful teams for a 3-4 year period in the history of the NFL.

Where he failed was in knowing when that approach was no longer effective.

Where Pete failed was attempting to blend a championship caliber roster, and a sub standard caliber coaching staff (mostly Cabevell). That succeeded in undermining his authority (buy in), once the W's dropped off.

SoulfishHawk":27uaisj7 said:

One play from back to back titles and playoffs almost every year under Carroll and JS. Yeah, what a horrible approach :?
Other than the Pats, you could argue that the Hawks have been the most successful team in the league in the last several years. But hey, no matter WHAT they do in this upcoming draft, we'll get to hear people whine and moan like they actually already KNOW that the draft isn't a good one. Before any of these guys even take the field. :roll:

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It’s a point of concern that the team has rarely drafted in the first round since 2012. A lot of the impact players from those Super Bowl teams are gone. The concern (which I don’t believe is misplaced) is what they’re being replaced with.

The team caught lightning in a bottle and had a very young and cheap group of talent. That luxury afforded them several options, which paid dividends. That’s over now that they got paid. But you don’t have the slightest concern about where it goes from here?

Sgt. Largent":3npk9wgb said:

Uncle Si":3npk9wgb said:

Eltagi":3npk9wgb said:

Ace_Rimmer":3npk9wgb said:

This is all about Pete being a great young players coach because he lets them be themselves.

Click to expand...

That's not a good approach to management. I line-manage a couple of young lads (in an IT environment, not sport) and if I "let them be themselves" they'd never get anything done.

Click to expand...

But it won a Super Bowl...

so clearly it is a good approach to management.

Click to expand...

It's both.

The gray area lies in the sustainability, not the approach. Obviously Pete's coaching style helped build one of the most dominant and successful teams for a 3-4 year period in the history of the NFL.

Where he failed was in knowing when that approach was no longer effective.

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we werent talking about the sustainability.

Only one team has managed to be "sustainable" for any length of time in the history of this league...

One... and even then they have lost Super Bowls

This league is about winning, winning immediately. PC did that. If his approach isn't sustainable its hypocritical to ask him to change when it works. What he needed to do was change the players. What do you think Belichek's approach will be when Brady leaves?