Imagine that, Sherm with something negative to say

MontanaHawk05":h1059lxe said:

We were winning and firmly in contention the entire time, until 2017 when injury and a bad kicker killed us. There was no major glaring problem to fix until that happened.

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In contention of what? Wildcard slots and NFC West titles? We certainly werent in contention for another Super Bowl.

adeltaY":9e49ejns said:

Shanegotyou11":9e49ejns said:

adeltaY":9e49ejns said:

Cyrus12":9e49ejns said:

Cant wait for the 30 for 30 on 49...

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Oh yeah, I'm glad Sherm brought that up too. It'll be craaaazy

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Itll be pretty exciting to see. However itll be mostly this:

Pete babied Russ and never put the blame on the offense like he did the defense. The hawks organization wanted russ as the face of the franchise and not beastmode or loud mouth D. Thats the main reason we passed the ball instead of running the ball.

Alot of criticism towards pete, russ and very minimal to cable and bevell.

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IDK man, hopefully they will get many different perspectives and I think the topic will draw out conflicting views from different players and coaches. I really think it might end up being one of the most incisive sports documentaries ever. I think some players will share the view you detailed above, some will stay middle of the road, some will maybe even blame the defense for giving up the lead. I'm sure someone's gonna rag on Bev for the playcall too. Wonder how long we will have to wait for it? 10 more years?

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When russ and the last player and coach move on imo.

Shanegotyou11":2i9bp6ec said:

Thats the main reason we passed the ball instead of running the ball.

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How are people allowed to repeat this nonsense over and over? Like do you have 1 brain cell? I'm sorry but this is so illogical that after a few months or a few seconds of thought how does anyone come up with it? You have it in your mind that they passed the ball based on who they wanted to have the glory and not defensive scheme? You truly think that makes sense? If so can you tell me why they ran on 1st down? Like this moronic narrative falls apart that fast. Lynch was 1 man and 1 yard from scoring the TD on 1st so if the team is so concerned about who scores this TD to win it why do they give him the ball in decent position to score? The only logical escape from that where you maintain your position is that between 1st and 2nd down with a running clock they said 'whew that was too close make sure Wilson scores'. That's what you believe. Like the whole premise is so enormously anti-factual it amazes me. They no problem feeding Lynch all season and now all the sudden are very concerned about him getting too much shine by winning it. This is one of the few SB talking points that gets me annoyed b/c it just relies on zero factual information and is such BS. We passed b/c they were in a goal line heavy set and we thought we could score and had to pass once in the series if it went to 4th. You can disagree with the call but the conspiracy crap about the reasons is so silly.

And to think that all of this drama the past 2 or 3 years could have been averted if Bevell would have been shown the door after the Play. An example needed to be made for the morale of the players and it wasnt. Still baffling that some fans couldnt see or admit that there was a problem.

pittpnthrs":3ohgedfm said:

MontanaHawk05":3ohgedfm said:

We were winning and firmly in contention the entire time, until 2017 when injury and a bad kicker killed us. There was no major glaring problem to fix until that happened.

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In contention of what? Wildcard slots and NFC West titles? We certainly werent in contention for another Super Bowl.

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Yeah, the OL mainly derailed our chances at the #1 seed in 2015 and 2016 (plus Russ injuries that season) and I'll give you the kicker for 2017 (though there were many other problems).

SoulfishHawk":113s83ih said:

I guess the Ravens and Bears with historic defenses squandered their chances as well. Plenty of great teams have only won a single title. But making it back to back? That's pretty damn impressive.

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I hate this argument. ...b-b-b-b-but the Bears and Ravens weren't dynasties, weren't they squandered? The thing about this statement is it has more nuance than just numbers, which is all that you're looking at. You need to take into consideration the team composition, coaching changes, etc. In the 1985 Bears case their workhorse RB Walter Payton was near the end of his career. In 1986 they also went through four different QB's due to injury, and ineffective play. McMahon only played 6 games in 86 and 7 games in 87. The bears also lost the architect of that legendary defense, Buddy Ryan to the Eagles. The 46 defense was also still a new gimmick that the 85 Bears used to trounce their opponents. Ditka also failed to replace guys that left in free agency or got old. The Bears never really had a decent QB outside of McMahon, but McMahon wasn't able to stay on the field. In 1987 Sweetness was worn out, and ready to be put out to pasture. Ditka also made stupid decisions like putting Leslie Frashier on special teams, only to have his knee torn, ending his career.

The Ravens, like the Bears had no Quarterback. They replaced Dilfer with Elvis Grbac, whom turned out to be a downgrade. Jamal Lewis got injured before the start of the season, and the RB's who replaced him didn't do that much. Salary cap purge happens and the Ravens lose many players, and Ray Lewis misses most of the season. This is a case of unfortunate injuries, and lack of a Quarterback. The Ravens went through Kyle Boller, Elvis Grbac, Anthony Wright, glue factory special Randall Cunningham, Chris Redman, and Jeff Blake.

The Seahawks were regarded as dynasty potential, because not only did they have a defense that was at least on par with the Ravens and Bears, but they also had a young top 10 Quarterback, one of the best backs in the NFL at the time, and had solid receivers. Doug Baldwin, Miller, Kearse and Tate were also young, and were far better than the Raven, and Bear units. The Ravens and Bears were stuck in QB hell, and were constantly a revolving door. In most cases they didn't even get average Quarterback play whilst the Seahawks had a franchise Quarterback that was already a top 10 QB at the end of his second year, and arguably a top 10 QB in his rookie year. The Seahawks were in a unique situation compared to the Ravens and Bears. They were a balanced team, the situation mirrored that of the 2001 upstart Patriots, only in my opinion the Seahawks were much scarier than that team on paper.

Great post Spin! When you have the great QB AND a historic defense, you have a shot at a dynasty that few other teams have ever had. It's unlikely the Seahawks will have that again in my lifetime and I'm a youngun compared to a lot of the folks here.

Richard Sherman sounds more frustrated than anything and he has every right to be. Nobody took the loss to the Patriots harder than Sherman did. He is a competitor, and he is a warrior that gave everything he had for the Seahawks. I don't think he is wrong in this case either.

Unlike the Bears, and Ravens the Seahawks had a Quarterback, and had decent skill position players on offense to boot. We had the talent, and most of them were young and home grown. We had one of the strongest rosters in the NFL, and our team was more balanced than the likes of the Ravens and Bears. We had the talent necessary to win three Super Bowls straight. Alas that never happened. A series of bad decisions have led to where we are at in this point in time.

1. We traded for Percy Harvin, and didn't resign Golden Tate, who turned out to be number one receiver material. We have spent considerable draft capital trying to get a guy who does exactly what he is doing for Detroit on the other side of Baldwin. Golden Tate's salary was on the low side as well.

2. We didn't replace our aging, and outgoing talent. Our drafts have been poor as of late, and our trades have been questionable. This has left the Seahawks with poor depth and sub-par replacements for starters that have departed.

3. Questionable coaching staff kept on past their expiration date. Pete Carroll has taught the mantra "compete" since day one. Somewhere the "all in" and "compete" mantra stopped being a thing. Carroll's offenses have been inconsistent, and downright unwatchable -- especially when Lynch retired. Slow starts, and rope a dope became a thing. Offenses since 2016 were like an anchor weight for most of the game. Only by the grace of Wilson, and his fourth quarter heroics did the offense do anything. Cable, the assistant head coach, offensive line coach, and running game coordinator thought he was able to polish a turd, and had an overly complex blocking scheme. It turns out that this man couldn't draft, develop talent, or develop competent running schemes. The unique talents of Wilson, and Lynch had been hiding a lot of deficiencies of our offense. I think many saw it on defense, and it irked them that Bevell, and Cable were getting a free pass. Always compete only applied to the defense, not the coaching staff nor the diva behaviors of Jimmy Graham, and Percy Harvin.

4. "the play". The play was bad not because it was a pass, it was bad because it played into the strength of the Patriots. We relied on one of our worst receivers, and route runners to make a play. Moreover it was the only play we only ran from that specific formation in short yardage situations. The OC said it was his call, and that it was the right one. He then went on to throw Russell Wilson and Ricardo Lockette under the bus for not executing his offensive brilliance. Nothing was said about that from Carroll.

5. Contradictions in Pete Carroll's philosophy. He held some accountable, but not others. He built his philosophy on accountability, and competition.

Carroll both built one of the greatest teams of all time, and squandered the talent and opportunity he had. He is at a crucial point in his career. A do or die moment, a go out with a bang, or with a whimper moment. What happens in this season, and perhaps the next will determine whether or not he is more Ditka, or more Billicheck.

adeltaY":19zbrpx5 said:

Steve2222":19zbrpx5 said:

I like how people are defending Sherm by saying he’s only speaking the truth and it’s what us fans have been saying this whole time. No **** it’s the truth but as a former player for the team, who drafted you, made you rich, gave you the opportunity to blossom into a superstar, and win a Super Bowl, how hard is it to just say “no comment” when asked your opinion about Seattle?

Like some posters have already mentioned, he sounds like a bitter ex girlfriend who just can’t let it go. Man I hope SF crashes and burns this year with all their hype.

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I disagree that players should just say no comment and move on. I don't think it's bad if they do, but if a guy wants to explain why he feels a certain way then I don't see why he shouldn't be able to. It makes the league a lot more interesting if guys are open and honest and Sherman didn't specifically call out a person, rather he made a comment about the team as a whole.

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I disagree. It’s unprofessional. But hey if you’re cool with burning bridges more power to you.

Also. This isn’t an isolated comment. He’s been making snide remarks about Seattle all offseason.

adeltaY":2brjfa5m said:

I don't think Sherman in his heart ever wanted to leave the Hawks. As much has he'd say "it's just a business," what this team had at its peak was magical and I know he loves and misses that.

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Yep. He says as much in the part of the interview on MMQB that PFT clipped out.

Spin Doctor":uwvnes3x said:

Richard Sherman sounds more frustrated than anything and he has every right to be. Nobody took the loss to the Patriots harder than Sherman did........

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Nah. Pete, Bevell, Wilson and Lockette were repeatedly scrutinized following that play. They all took it hard and you could see it on their faces.
Sure Sherm was nearly in tears after the play but at the end of the game he stood face to face with Browner as they practically kissed. All-About-Me Sherm continues pointing fingers while others accepted blame. How the fvck is Sherm taking the loss the hardest?

erik2690":2nozs98h said:

Shanegotyou11":2nozs98h said:

Thats the main reason we passed the ball instead of running the ball.

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How are people allowed to repeat this nonsense over and over? Like do you have 1 brain cell? I'm sorry but this is so illogical that after a few months or a few seconds of thought how does anyone come up with it? You have it in your mind that they passed the ball based on who they wanted to have the glory and not defensive scheme? You truly think that makes sense? If so can you tell me why they ran on 1st down? Like this moronic narrative falls apart that fast. Lynch was 1 man and 1 yard from scoring the TD on 1st so if the team is so concerned about who scores this TD to win it why do they give him the ball in decent position to score? The only logical escape from that where you maintain your position is that between 1st and 2nd down with a running clock they said 'whew that was too close make sure Wilson scores'. That's what you believe. Like the whole premise is so enormously anti-factual it amazes me. They no problem feeding Lynch all season and now all the sudden are very concerned about him getting too much shine by winning it. This is one of the few SB talking points that gets me annoyed b/c it just relies on zero factual information and is such BS. We passed b/c they were in a goal line heavy set and we thought we could score and had to pass once in the series if it went to 4th. You can disagree with the call but the conspiracy crap about the reasons is so silly.

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Pretty much what I thought when I read that comment too. Silliness presented as fact? You're being too kind, as the bit about wanting Russell to be the "hero", the face of the franchise, being the reason for the poor play-call doesn't even rise to the level of "Conspiracy Theory".*

I don't get how anyone could *seriously* believe that an NFL coach would call a play in this situation based on anything other than what they thought gave their team the best chance to win in that moment. Spin Doctor gave a good quick explanation in this thread that nails it.

Spin Doctor":2nozs98h said:

4. "the play". The play was bad not because it was a pass, it was bad because it played into the strength of the Patriots. We relied on one of our worst receivers, and route runners to make a play. Moreover it was the only play we only ran from that specific formation in short yardage situations. The OC said it was his call, and that it was the right one. He then went on to throw Russell Wilson and Ricardo Lockette under the bus for not executing his offensive brilliance. Nothing was said about that from Carroll.

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And like Spin Doctor mentioned, Bevell proceeded to throw everyone else under the bus instead of accepting responsibility for his many contributions for the failure.

For brevity, Spin Doctor edited out the part about the play design relying on Jerome Kearse to physically push Brandon Browner off the line, a task made impossible by the fact that Browner knew that was the "only short yardage play Seattle runs from that formation", information Browner transmitted to Malcolm Butler, in real time, pre-snap. Browner destroyed that play, thanks to Bevell's coaching failings. Absent a retraction and apology, Bevell should have been canned 2 days later--not for the failure of the play, but for throwing players under the bus instead of accepting responsibility.

So please, anyone else tempted to repeat silly rationale, like "coaching staff wanted Russ to get the glory and MVP" or "they didn't want Marshawn to get SB MVP", *think* before repeating such tripe. There are very large, smart, strong, motivated young men doing physical battle on every play, and everything is freakin' difficult at this level, and the ONLY thing on a coach's mind, and his QB's mind, is HOW to WIN THE GAME, based on the situation on the field, not who gets credit. Obviously the play-call had a bad result, both because the opponent read it, and because they executed better than we did.

* Many of which contain more truth than the "Official Story".

I'm guessing people will be dwelling on this for years. Meh, waste of energy. Thx for the years Sherm, get over it and move on.

When did we “make the team all about Wilson”?? Some how I missed that cause from where I sit our staff relegated Wilson to an island and spent most of our resources supporting Sherm and his defense. Got to have defensive depth so the guys don’t get too tired meanwhile asking Russell to play QB, RB, and OL. If Russ was a couple steps faster they’d probably let Baldwin go too and ask Russ to catch his own passes. Sherm had nothing but support here and that in itself was the mistake that did us in.

Most of the big contracts went to the D. Russ and Doug finally gets their good deals, and somehow that's not ok? These defensive guys weren't complaining when they got huge contacts. Funny how that works.

adeltaY":2geszynl said:

Steve2222":2geszynl said:

I like how people are defending Sherm by saying he’s only speaking the truth and it’s what us fans have been saying this whole time. No **** it’s the truth but as a former player for the team, who drafted you, made you rich, gave you the opportunity to blossom into a superstar, and win a Super Bowl, how hard is it to just say “no comment” when asked your opinion about Seattle?

Like some posters have already mentioned, he sounds like a bitter ex girlfriend who just can’t let it go. Man I hope SF crashes and burns this year with all their hype.

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I disagree that players should just say no comment and move on. I don't think it's bad if they do, but if a guy wants to explain why he feels a certain way then I don't see why he shouldn't be able to.

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Because it's the classy professional thing to do.

"I think my thoughts on that are well known, but for now I'd like to concentrate on the now, on this upcoming season, on the 49ers, on this team. Thank you."

That's what a boss would say, someone who's in control of their emotions, someone who isn't letting the past continue to run their life.

But Sherman being Sherman. unno:

Tical21":1br0oefo said:

MontanaHawk05":1br0oefo said:

Tical21":1br0oefo said:

Sherman is absolutely, 100% right. They did lose their way. They stopped competing. They infused the team with good guys rather than ruthless winners. They forgot that their brashness and defiance is what made them who they were. They started drafting for role players rather than potential studs. They brought in soft veterans.

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And none of it resulted in a non-winning season until they signed a bad kicker and lost a promising starting RB to injury.

People here are so desperate to pin our struggles to a single correctable philosophy because it makes them feel better about our chances to rebuild. Unfortunately, the result is a lot of mis-pinnings. Truth is, a lot of NFL teams lose out on the Super Bowl due to factors outside their control (injury, lucky bounces) and respectable gambles that went south. It's not easily fixed.

Folks falling back on the "stopped competing" crap are wrong. Sherman is wrong. The team did not suffer through three losing seasons after The Play because of Bevell and a pack of big contracts. We were winning and firmly in contention the entire time, until 2017 when injury and a bad kicker killed us. There was no major glaring problem to fix until that happened.

That's falsifiable and quantifiable. Sherm's comments aren't. Let's see if he can go on backing his words up without his youth and health, or Earl and Kam.

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They had the most talented roster in the league for what, 4-5 years? Usually, by far. Did they play like it?

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Uh, yeah, they did. Playoffs, every year. All these guys were constantly on top of the stat packs at their positions. And once they actually did fall short of the playoffs, they made changes.

Falling short of the Super Bowl is not the sign of an underperforming roster. It's simply a sign that multiple talented teams make the playoffs every year and NFL rules only let one win a Lombardi.

pittpnthrs":10y31eda said:

MontanaHawk05":10y31eda said:

We were winning and firmly in contention the entire time, until 2017 when injury and a bad kicker killed us. There was no major glaring problem to fix until that happened.

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In contention of what? Wildcard slots and NFC West titles? We certainly werent in contention for another Super Bowl.

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You need those wildcard slots and NFC west titles to qualify for a Super Bowl. Not sure why they constitute some "poor man's playoffs" tier in your opinion. Even the 2013 Seahawks didn't look like the Patriots week in and week out. That's revisionist history.

Quit trying to pin this on bad philosophy. The 2015-2016 team was doing what every SB team has to do before getting to the big dance - winning titles and qualifying in January. They didn't win Super Bowls. They were still good. And once they didn't qualify in January, they immediately made changes.

Not to say they did everything perfect. But the mistakes they made were largely on the personnel side at crucial positions (Blair Walsh, Cary Williams, George Fant). Player attitude and philosophy never once stopped the other core guys from being difference makers on the field. It just didn't result in another Lombardi.

If you really want somewhere to lay the blame for premature playoff exits - and this ought to be make you really uncomfortable, but it belongs in the discussion - look at the QB position. Wilson's first half awfulness gets magnified in January. The exception happens to be the year we won the Super Bowl (and 2012, which was just bad luck re: the ending of the ATL game).

It’s OK to give credit to other teams, too.

I think this has been part of Sherman’s problem. He felt they deserved to win the Super Bowl, regardless of many real factors in a team game outside of his control. It isn’t Madden. Even if we somehow skirted salary cap, player decline, no injuries etc there is no guanratee we win the Super Bowl again. Why? Because we’ve never had an undefeated season, and other teams do not just stand still. People are working hard to do their job to the best of their ability, they want to win, or make money. If Sherman is questioning pretty much everyone and everything (ability AND competence) other than himself (part of the problem after SB) in a team game, well, that guy is just a dick — but we knew that already.

Saying a team that made the playoffs for 5 plus years has lost their way is so incredibly arrogant. I guess half the league is just completely lost right now, not even sure why they try, they don’t deserve it because the current playoff teams should continue dominance forever, as we have seen throughout the history of football. /sarcasm. Not even insulting to just the non playoff teams, what about the Packers with Aaron Rodgers? Vikings defense, Saints with Brees, have they lost their way, or is it just really hard to win, even with the best players in the world? Reworking teams is normal thing in a league with cap and other elements designed to create parity.

MontanaHawk05":28k0ucy6 said:

pittpnthrs":28k0ucy6 said:

MontanaHawk05":28k0ucy6 said:

We were winning and firmly in contention the entire time, until 2017 when injury and a bad kicker killed us. There was no major glaring problem to fix until that happened.

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In contention of what? Wildcard slots and NFC West titles? We certainly werent in contention for another Super Bowl.

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You need those wildcard slots and NFC west titles to qualify for a Super Bowl. Not sure why they constitute some "poor man's playoffs" tier in your opinion. Even the 2013 Seahawks didn't look like the Patriots week in and week out. That's revisionist history.

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They constitute a 'poor man's playoff' because they had no shot at the Super Bowl even when in the playoffs the last couple seasons. Carolina drummed us up in 2015 and probably could have scored 60 on us if Rivera hadnt called off the dogs in the 2nd half, no way in hell we were going to beat Atlanta in 2016, and we didnt even make the playoffs last year. Yeah we made the playoffs in 15' and 16' but we were pretenders,,,, not contenders.