2015 Our Offense - what changed?

scutterhawk · Sep 20, 2018

Scorpion05":39jf3iys said:
The narrative of a “Quick Passing game” is often lazy thinking. And I don’t mean that specific to this thread. What I mean is that in order to have a “quick passing game” you still need respectable protection up front. The Packers vs the Bears..guess what? They could hold their own against Mack & company. Every elite QB has strong protection

A strong pass rush can obviously harass any O-line. But when your O-line is weak, defenses can plan to jump your routes, press man coverage..because on every snap you’re toast under 3.5 seconds. A defense needs to be able to respect your protection enough to know they can’t assume, press, and jump routes.

In 2015, in the second half the O-line was VERY respectable. The quick passing game at times worked because we could keep defenses honest. For a quick passing game to work, the O-line protection should be good enough to cleanly take deep shots. Watch a Tom Brady game and you’ll see what I’m talking about. He gets the ball out quick, but he has the OPTION to throw it deep. Both frustrate a defense, keeping them honest. :stirthepot:

We’re asking Russ to do too much with what we’ve given him. The moment we decided to pay Wilson, we should have added a strong O-line and weapons. People talk about McVay, Peterson, and McNagy. But they all went out of their way to invest in their QB. McVay’s first move was to get Whitworth. His scheme doesn’t work without RESPECTABLE protection

^THIS^, people/Coaches expecting Wilson to continue performing miracles with a shitty O-Line in front of him are being delusional.....You can't just 'Dabble' at building a Run Game, or just put a flimsy Band-Aid on your>> Pass-Protection<<<, and expect ANY Quarterback to just tread water until the Offensive Line gets it.
If you're getting decent runs, WHY abandon the Run Game???? Why get away from what seems to be working fairly well for ya????

pittpnthrs · Sep 20, 2018

2nd half of 2015 the offense started to gel when Graham went out and Russ quit trying to force him the ball. This allowed everybody to be a factor in the offense, the read option was being run and Rawls was the benefit of some nice running lanes instead of just receiving a hand off and trying to beat the Dline by himself, this in turn opened up the long ball, and the schedule was favorable in that stretch. Oline was better then also.

Start of the 2016 to present Pete went straight back to that ball control/home run, feast or famine offense and with the Oline and talent we have had,,,,,it isnt working.

Scorpion05 · Sep 20, 2018

MontanaHawk05":3r176nnd said:
Scorpion05":3r176nnd said:

Every elite QB has strong protection

Click to expand...

And here we see the old myth come out again.

There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.

It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing

hawkfan68 · Sep 20, 2018

I believe the 2016 game against the Dolphins, in which Russell Wilson suffered a mcl injury, changed both Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson. Prior to the injury Russell was dangerous both on his feet and with his arm. There used to be plays where he would be the first option to run the ball. There’s been less of that, last season and thus far this season. Their whole offensive philosophy changed after RW got hurt. Their scoring, points per game, has dropped. They used to score over 24 pts per game but since 2016 season they have been under that.

2015 - 26.4 pts per game
2016 - 22.1 pts per game
2017 - 22.9 pts per game
2018 - 20.5 pts per game

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2015.htm

mrt144 · Sep 20, 2018

Scorpion05":1w3k6rhf said:
MontanaHawk05":1w3k6rhf said:

Scorpion05":1w3k6rhf said:

Every elite QB has strong protection

Click to expand...

And here we see the old myth come out again.

There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.

Click to expand...

It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing

And every team serious about getting the most out of their QB actually drafts and spends FA money, for better or worse for the entirety of the team, on tools to support that QB beyond just OL. They also hired OCs and fired OCs based on mesh with the QB. Found WRs that meshed with their QB and OC, etc etc.

It's not like Rodgers or Brees or Brady went out there and earned the right to have a better offense by crawling through the muck for a couple of seasons with putrid support and then everyone around them realizing "this would be even better if he had more weapons and protection". There was in part a leap a faith that if the teams provided these tools to those players, they could succeed even more.

And I defy anyone to point to what Seattle has done in a robust effort to provide what RW needs to maximize his talents on an act of faith in him. Was Jimmy Graham the best effort? Was Read Option the best effort? Was firing Bevell and replacing him with an even more milquetoast yesman to PC the best effort? Cause that's all I have and that pales in comparison to what NO, GB and NE have done in support of their QBs.

And if a QB has to earn their protection and weapons before they get them by demonstrating they don't really need it...it just breaks my brain. If the Legendary 3 are so good why do their teams invest so much in their support, and not just in cash money but with OC and at the expense of defense? And if the Legendary 3 don't need that support and have proved they don't need it, then why have teams offered it anyway? FWIW only the 2x GOAT Candidate Pats are even close to us in cap usage Offense/Defense and position group across multiple years.

IndyHawk · Sep 20, 2018

hawkfan68":1l4wdi14 said:
I believe the 2016 game against the Dolphins, in which Russell Wilson suffered a mcl injury, changed both Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson. Prior to the injury Russell was dangerous both on his feet and with his arm. There used to be plays where he would be the first option to run the ball. There’s been less of that, last season and thus far this season. Their whole offensive philosophy changed after RW got hurt. Their scoring, points per game, has dropped. They used to score over 24 pts per game but since 2016 season they have been under that.

2015 - 26.4 pts per game
2016 - 22.1 pts per game
2017 - 22.9 pts per game
2018 - 20.5 pts per game

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2015.htm

That injury may very well have changed him.
I don't see the same speed he had since that time
and he seems even slower and for him that really
hurts since he likes to bail out of the pocket...
I don't understand why some cannot see there is no
OL that can block for a QB who won't USE the pocket.
How are supposed to block when they can't see which
way he takes off or when he holds the rock too long?
Anyway looking at the scoring,it looks like we are going
to average about 18.5 pg this year..Looks like we need
to use that 33 million and picks for a lot of pieces to fix
this team.

adeltaY · Sep 20, 2018

Scorpion05":v3be6rl9 said:
MontanaHawk05":v3be6rl9 said:

Scorpion05":v3be6rl9 said:

Every elite QB has strong protection

Click to expand...

And here we see the old myth come out again.

There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.

Click to expand...

It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing

Excellent post Scorpion! These guys are working with much better OL than Russ and it isn't close!

I'll add that the Cowboys OL wasn't "The Cowboys OL" until 2014, so Romo got one year with them, put up MVP level numbers, and almost beat the Packers (Dez dropped it game). He proceeded to get injured in 2015 and 2016 so never really took advantage of the dominant OL at its peak beyond one season.

Throw in Brady, too.

LT Nate Solder and RT Marcus Cannon were/are both really good. Shaq Mason at RG has been solid, David Andrews is also a good center. Overall their line performs better than the sum of its parts.

jammerhawk · Sep 20, 2018

What changed?

Marshawn Lynch left the team and they were left with no running game which covered a great number of the already apparent warts. Further the OLine got a good deal worse and we have now got a RT that is not worthy of being a starter and have had various guards that were also unworthy of being considered starting quality. Added to this the team has had an OC that was hardly better than a high school OC. The running game coordinator/?OLine guru failed to meet any stated objective and the pass protection was as awful as the total inability to run the ball. Those two jobs have changed and the coaches have been replaced but their overseeing direction seems stuck.

Pete seems stuck in 'coach talk' about wanting run the ball while quietly preferring a downfield passing without pass protection. He preaches competition but has not lived his philosophy by his personnel choices on the field. The team needs to sell out to run the darn ball.

What changed? I believe frankly not much except the personnel and the personnel we have here aren't getting it done, but they weren't earlier and the defence is rebuilding but now lack any genuine edge presence.

I love my team and think there are some very good players on this team's roster but they have not come together and many are injured or their effectiveness has been diminished by their present injuries.

jammerhawk · Sep 20, 2018

deleted double posting

adeltaY · Sep 20, 2018

When the offense exploded in the latter half of the season, Lynch wasn't even playing. Rawls was tearing it up as our starting RB until he got hurt. Then it was Bryce Brown and I forget who. Running backs matter! :mrgreen:

pittpnthrs · Sep 20, 2018

jammerhawk":1v73us0v said:
Marshawn Lynch left the team and they were left with no running game which covered a great number of the already apparent warts.

Rawls ran for 800+ yards in 13 games during the 2015 season. We had a running game.

jammerhawk · Sep 20, 2018

That is true about Rawls ( he was a flash in the pan though), however since Rawls got hurt the team has struggled mightily to find a RB who can be the bell cow and to block for the run with any reliability or consistent effectiveness. maybe i misunderstand the question b/c it is what has changed since and without Lynch the team has struggled with a change of focus.

Right now Pete wants to have a rookie show up and be all that he hopes when the team has a RB who has outcompeted that rookie for PT. The personnel decisions are confusing or confused.

pittpnthrs · Sep 20, 2018

jammerhawk":2xu7vexz said:
That is true about Rawls ( he was a flash in the pan though), however since Rawls got hurt the team has struggled mightily to find a RB who can be the bell cow and to block for the run with any reliability or consistent effectiveness. maybe i misunderstand the question b/c it is what has changed since and without Lynch the team has struggled with a change of focus.

Right now Pete wants to have a rookie show up and be all that he hopes when the team has a RB who has outcompeted that rookie for PT. The personnel decisions are confusing or confused.

truehawksfan · Sep 20, 2018

I watched the 2013 NFC Championship game vs. the Niners...and the offense looks eerily similar.

The balance was there...Beastmode ran the ball more, but was held to 27 first half yards.

We led the league in rushing avg-137 yds/game too. But, despite our run game and Beastmode’s presence the play action was ineffective. Aldon Smith ran right thru our Oline and a younger, lighter, faster Russ was sacked 4 times...IN THE FIRST HALF.

Russ scrambled out of the pocket many times -pressure almost immediately. 2 times he held onto the ball too long, but he converted one into a 50 yd strike to Doug Baldwin.

And most of the passes were intermediate. He missed Kearse on a 20 yd dig route, threw a 20 out route to Baldwin, threw a 20 yd seam route to Luke Wilsson-Dropped it after a helmet hit,

Russ also thru a 6 yd out route to Zach Miller, a bubble screen to Baldwin, and a 11 slant route to Baldwin on 3rd and 9...but
despite a leaky Oline, and facing a fierce pass rusher -Aldon Smith- and a blitzing Navarro Bowman, the Hawks continued to call intermediate routes.

But, here’s the difference. I mean, the NFC Championship game plan almost looked identical to the Bears. Even the score was the same...behind 10-3 at the half.

I don’t know if the game plan will be much different vs the Cowboys....but we need to run the ball more, to balance it out because that’s the difference between winning and losing games under the Pete Carroll regime.

IrishNW · Sep 20, 2018

Scorpion05":zw49bk89 said:
MontanaHawk05":zw49bk89 said:

Scorpion05":zw49bk89 said:

Every elite QB has strong protection

Click to expand...

And here we see the old myth come out again.

There's been no correlation between OL strength and deep playoff runs. Aaron Rodgers has been one of the most-sacked QB's at times during his career. Ben Roethlisberger has had terrible protection at times. Cards, same thing when they went a few years ago. Same with the 2013-2014 Seahawks, whom NOBODY on this board thought had a good OL at the time. Nobody.

Tony Romo, on the other hand, had terrific protection over the years. If the quoted statement were true, he should have won the Cowboys a half dozen Super Bowls. He came close once.

QB play and scheme play just as much a role in keeping QB's upright as OL's do. That's especially been true in the last 15 years as spread concepts and up-tempo work have worked their way up from college offenses. If you do have a good OL, that's awesome, and it'll give you some options. But a good OL does not mask a QB's issues.

Click to expand...

It's not a myth if it's rooted in facts

Packers - David Bakhtiari, Bryan Bulaga. T.J Lang , Jeff Saturday, Josh Sitton, Scott Wells, Chad Clifton.

ALL of these players(except for Bulaga, who would be an instant upgrade here) were pro-bowlers and considered among the best in the league during their time with Rodgers. Currently they still have Bakhtiari and Bulaga, and recently gave up Lang and Sitton. They have always protected Rodgers well. Rodgers' sacks could more credibly be credited to him holding the ball, given the performance of his O-lines over the years

Steelers - Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro. Recent Pro-bowlers, just among the few of good to great O-linemen the Steelers have had during Big Ben's tenure

Eagles - Brandon Brooks (pro-bowl), Lane Johnson (pro-bowl), Jason Kelce (pretty good, pro-bowl alternate)
Rams - Andrew Whitworth, Roger Saffold (second team All-Pro), and other solids such as Rob Havenstein

Falcons - Alex Mack, Ryan Schraeder. Among the reasons the Falcons were ranked by PFF as 2nd best in 2017

Patriots - Shaq Mason, David Andrews, and formerly Nate Soldier. All considered amongst the best at their position. Bill Belicheck would settle for nothing less

Saints - Ryan Ramczyk, Max Unger.

These are all considered amongst the top offenses in the league. And they haven't allowed the dumpster fire of O-line protection that we've come to accept as a fan base

A great O-line alone will not lead to deep playoff runs. But having good to great O-lines and talent IS key to successful playoff runs. Dak has had a great O-line. But Dak is also not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or Russ

I may lean towards defending Wilson most of the time. But we're getting to a point where we're ignoring the basic and obvious as an excuse to critique him. Yes, Wilson holds onto the ball. And Yes, he is being given extremely piss poor pathetic protection. By any objective standard. So like I said before, EVERY other top Quarterback in the league are given good to great protection, with pro-bowlers and top coached talent to protect them. Which allows them to execute their offense consistently. O-line protection matters. It is not something you can neglect, or negate with "quick passes." It is something that serious teams who VALUE their Quarterback invest in. We've done a poor job of investing in Russell's growth and the gap between his O-line versus what Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Wentz, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan has is disturbing

Saturday a probowler with the packers? what kind of weed are you smoking? you need actually watch football instead of read about it on google kid

NINEster · Sep 21, 2018

truehawksfan":2fcdpk0c said:
I watched the 2013 NFC Championship game vs. the Niners...and the offense looks eerily similar.

The balance was there...Beastmode ran the ball more, but was held to 27 first half yards.

We led the league in rushing avg-137 yds/game too. But, despite our run game and Beastmode’s presence the play action was ineffective. Aldon Smith ran right thru our Oline and a younger, lighter, faster Russ was sacked 4 times...IN THE FIRST HALF.

Russ scrambled out of the pocket many times -pressure almost immediately. 2 times he held onto the ball too long, but he converted one into a 50 yd strike to Doug Baldwin.

And most of the passes were intermediate. He missed Kearse on a 20 yd dig route, threw a 20 out route to Baldwin, threw a 20 yd seam route to Luke Wilsson-Dropped it after a helmet hit,

Russ also thru a 6 yd out route to Zach Miller, a bubble screen to Baldwin, and a 11 slant route to Baldwin on 3rd and 9...but
despite a leaky Oline, and facing a fierce pass rusher -Aldon Smith- and a blitzing Navarro Bowman, the Hawks continued to call intermediate routes.

But, here’s the difference. I mean, the NFC Championship game plan almost looked identical to the Bears. Even the score was the same...behind 10-3 at the half.

I don’t know if the game plan will be much different vs the Cowboys....but we need to run the ball more, to balance it out because that’s the difference between winning and losing games under the Pete Carroll regime.

But here's the huge difference.

That Seahawk defense could be counted on to keep the score low until Wilson and co could figure it out, get lucky, etc. What was that mindblowing stat, 32043204 games where the Hawks had a lead at one point in all of them, and never lost a game by double digits?? Even Patriots and Packers couldn't boast that. Not sure any of the dynasty 49er or Cowboy teams could either.

The rivalry was defined by the Seahawk defense having Harbaugh's offense and Kaepernick's #. That's it. There was a thread on here titled "17, 13, 13, 19" (or something like that) about how Carroll held Harbaugh's offenses to under 20 points. That was true for the entirety of the Harbaugh era (and then it became like under 10 points). Chip Kelly managed a blistering 23 points one time, but I figure that was a throwaway game. Even last year Shanahan could only muster 9 points and 6 points until the new guy came in and introduced the concept of a touchdown pass against the Seahawks.

It never ever was about Russell Wilson while the two teams were evenly matched. It's a nice trolling point, but it ain't the truth and gets proven more over time, not less.

If it was about Wilson's greatness, then Alex Smith is the 3rd best QB in the NFL since 2011 since he's ranked 3rd in wins.

Bottom line is this:

If Carroll can figure out how to recreate a top 5 defense, he will win with Wilson.

A great RB on top of that would present a threat to go very far.

Don't need to figure out how to make Wilson a prolific passer. Just build up the team around him.

hawkfan68 · Sep 21, 2018

The bigger issue is that the Seahawks have become predictable on offense. All 31 teams know what they are doing and have evolved to counter them. Even with a new OC the offense is still the same. Therefore even more ineffective.

jammerhawk · Sep 21, 2018

There is more pressure now on Wilson to constantly manufacture offence and the expectations of a deep passing game with little if hardly any pass protection and no effective running game to force play action respect of that run as a real option has made the O one dimensional. Fix the OLine and fix the O.

Wilson is is most sacked QB in the NFL. I heard on Sirius that so far he being sacked every 6th offensive play. Some of it is on him but if your team can't/won't run, and he can't be protected it is impossibly unfair to blame him for the O not working.

The team need to protect him better.

Sgt. Largent · Sep 21, 2018

hawkfan68":3s0vrc96 said:
The bigger issue is that the Seahawks have become predictable on offense. All 31 teams know what they are doing and have evolved to counter them. Even with a new OC the offense is still the same. Therefore even more ineffective.

Become?

We've been predictable on offense in the entire Carroll tenure. The only thing that has made our offense unpredictable is Russell, and he's not the old Russell right now.

I remember listening to Greg Cosell a couple years ago telling KJR that we had one of the most elementary passing offenses he's ever seen in the NFL. Doesn't look like anything's changed.

scutterhawk · Sep 21, 2018

hawkfan68":1ta9batp said:
I believe the 2016 game against the Dolphins, in which Russell Wilson suffered a mcl injury, changed both Pete Carroll and Russell Wilson. Prior to the injury Russell was dangerous both on his feet and with his arm. There used to be plays where he would be the first option to run the ball. There’s been less of that, last season and thus far this season. Their whole offensive philosophy changed after RW got hurt. Their scoring, points per game, has dropped. They used to score over 24 pts per game but since 2016 season they have been under that.

2015 - 26.4 pts per game
2016 - 22.1 pts per game
2017 - 22.9 pts per game
2018 - 20.5 pts per game

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2015.htm

Pete went all in on trying get his Run Game back up, went out and got Lazy, er I mean Lacey, the Run Game was still crap, also, injuries tanked the last couple seasons, and last year, Russell Wilson was the ONLY somewhat consistent ball carrier, and thus the 2017 22.9 point average.
The Offensive Line has been the common diminishing denominator, it's still regressing.
They got rid of Cable & Bevell, and now some fools are complaining that MAYBE it's Wilson that is the root problem?
Some fools are expecting Russell Wilson to fix the entire Offensive woes, or traded away to save money?!? LOLOLOL
,

2015 Our Offense - what changed?

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