Fire Pete

semiahmoo · Oct 15, 2018

Can't take much from the Raiders win beyond just enjoying it. They suck and are clearly calling it in these days.

Next couple games will really determine what level of team the Seahawks are.

The teams is improved no doubt and that's great to see.

How much remains unknown at this time.

As for Pete, we won't return to a legit playoff threat type team until he's gone

toffee · Oct 15, 2018

semiahmoo":2mpqjbjj said:
Can't take much from the Raiders win beyond just enjoying it. They suck and are clearly calling it in these days.

Next couple games will really determine what level of team the Seahawks are.

The teams is improved no doubt and that's great to see.

How much remains unknown at this time.

As for Pete, we won't return to a legit playoff threat type team until he's gone

So, who would you want to replace Pete? Who could return the Hawks to “a legit playoff threat”?

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toffee · Oct 15, 2018

TwistedHusky":kdp7rfie said:
That is the question.

Were the Raiders trying to get back up and we beat them down?

Or

Were the Raiders just lying down in the first place?

That is the dilemma. We won't know until after the Lions and Chargers games.

If this team is truly taking a big next step forward - they have to win those games.

As Largent pointed out, we are beating the bad teams. We have almost all our wins courtesy of the 'sisters of the poor'. We have one win against a decent team, beating the Cowboys. But we have games against the Panthers and Packers that will decide this question.

(Whether the Cowboys are actually good or not, or the Jaguars literally just are imploding because of Bortles is a question that needs answers too. But based on what Richard is doing with that defense - I expect they might be decent).

The Chargers are a team we tend to struggle with, but if we beat them that would be important. I do think for us to get a chance to go to the playoffs we almost have to beat the Chargers.

abusing bad teams is the very foundation of a good team; “good” teams played down to opponent level usually don’t go places.

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Sgt. Largent · Oct 15, 2018

TwistedHusky":2k083c2m said:
That is the dilemma. We won't know until after the Lions and Chargers games.

If this team is truly taking a big next step forward - they have to win those games..

For sure, we'll know a lot about the Hawks over the next month..............but I like what I've seen the past two weeks, on both sides of the ball.

I already thought we were in a re-build, so all I ask during a rebuild is progress and signs that we're going in the right direction, and the past two weeks I've seen that.

TwistedHusky · Oct 15, 2018

Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.

It is a risk either way.

But it is extremely unlikely that Pete continues to coach for 3 more years.

I hate watching some of the offenses that Pete has shoved onto us, so it is hard to be unbiased here. But we have a giant 30M a year bet we have to make and we are going to have to determine if it makes sense before that bet has to be made.

I think Pete can probably 7-9 or 9-7 this team for a few years, with some 10 win and 7 win season mixed in. I don't see him doing anything effective in the playoffs. But again, how long before he is gone anyway?

Wilson is either a guy that is being held back by Pete's offense or a guy that has a lot of flaws being masked by it. #1 being true would find Wilson a worthwhile $30M a year investment. #2 being true would be close to a disaster that killed our cap and held this team back for years if we locked in Wilson at $30M+ year with giant chunks of it guaranteed.

We have no way of knowing what we do have until Pete moves on. But what we do know is that Pete is likely not going to be here long regardless. So the time we have now is one of the times we have to determine if this can be a Steeleresque type of team.

Sgt. Largent · Oct 15, 2018

TwistedHusky":21ciqi2k said:
Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.
.

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe Pete knows that Russell is who Russell is, and that's a very smart tough game manager type QB that thrives best when given a great run game to use play action to get the ball downfield, of which Russell DOES VERY WELL.

In a vacuum in another dimension I'd love to see what Andy Reid or Peterson in Philly could do with Russell.........but maybe they'd also find out that Russell has some very real limitations to his game that they can't crack, and he's best served to be in an offense like this where he's not expected to carry an offense.

Seymour · Oct 15, 2018

Sgt. Largent":3awgdi4y said:
TwistedHusky":3awgdi4y said:

Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.
.

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe Pete knows that Russell is who Russell is, and that's a very smart tough game manager type QB that thrives best when given a great run game to use play action to get the ball downfield, of which Russell DOES VERY WELL.

In a vacuum in another dimension I'd love to see what Andy Reid or Peterson in Philly could do with Russell.........but maybe they'd also find out that Russell has some very real limitations to his game that they can't crack, and he's best served to be in an offense like this where he's not expected to carry an offense.

If Pete and John believe Wilson is a game manager and gave him an Arron Rodgers contract (-$1,000 per year), then they both need to be strung up by the balls and tortured.

Do you even know what a "game manager" is? :roll:

It is a derogatory name given to a below average QB that is only good enough to not screw things up. :177692: :141847_bnono: :roll:

You are either a franchise QB or a game manager, you cannot be both!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_manager

rcaido · Oct 15, 2018

Has there ever been a top 5 QB that's a game manager?

Didn't Wilson led the league in TD's last year?

Didn't Wilson have the most 4th quarter TD's in NFL history?

toffee · Oct 15, 2018

TwistedHusky":1enbedht said:
Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.

It is a risk either way.

But it is extremely unlikely that Pete continues to coach for 3 more years.

I hate watching some of the offenses that Pete has shoved onto us, so it is hard to be unbiased here. But we have a giant 30M a year bet we have to make and we are going to have to determine if it makes sense before that bet has to be made.

I think Pete can probably 7-9 or 9-7 this team for a few years, with some 10 win and 7 win season mixed in. I don't see him doing anything effective in the playoffs. But again, how long before he is gone anyway?

Wilson is either a guy that is being held back by Pete's offense or a guy that has a lot of flaws being masked by it. #1 being true would find Wilson a worthwhile $30M a year investment. #2 being true would be close to a disaster that killed our cap and held this team back for years if we locked in Wilson at $30M+ year with giant chunks of it guaranteed.

We have no way of knowing what we do have until Pete moves on. But what we do know is that Pete is likely not going to be here long regardless. So the time we have now is one of the times we have to determine if this can be a Steeleresque type of team.

again, who do you want to replace Pete that will feee Wilson and win that super bowl ?

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Sgt. Largent · Oct 15, 2018

Seymour":3g9ulat2 said:
Sgt. Largent":3g9ulat2 said:

TwistedHusky":3g9ulat2 said:

Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.
.

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe Pete knows that Russell is who Russell is, and that's a very smart tough game manager type QB that thrives best when given a great run game to use play action to get the ball downfield, of which Russell DOES VERY WELL.

In a vacuum in another dimension I'd love to see what Andy Reid or Peterson in Philly could do with Russell.........but maybe they'd also find out that Russell has some very real limitations to his game that they can't crack, and he's best served to be in an offense like this where he's not expected to carry an offense.

Click to expand...

If Pete and John believe Wilson is a game manager and gave him an Arron Rodgers contract (-$1,000 per year), then they both need to be strung up by the balls and tortured.

Do you even know what a "game manager" is? :roll:

It is a derogatory name given to a below average QB that is only good enough to not screw things up. :177692: :141847_bnono: :roll:

You are either a franchise QB or a game manager, you cannot be both!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_manager

Ha, I know people don't like that term, "game manager"........and I certainly don't mean it as a derogatory term, I love Russell.

What I mean by it is a QB that only throws the ball 20-30 times a game, and you don't rely on to carry the team for four quarters game in and game out. You rely on him to make smart decisions, protect the ball and make 3-4 explosive plays per game playing off your dominant run game.

So yeah, is that worth 33M+ a year? I have no idea, that scares the hell out of me. But you know what else scares the hell out of me? This team without Russell and going back to a revolving door of mediocre QB's for the next 20 years.

Seymour · Oct 15, 2018

rcaido":2kronwam said:
Has there ever been a top 5 QB that's a game manager?

Didn't Wilson led the league in TD's last year?

Didn't Wilson have the most 4th quarter TD's in NFL history?

Someone understands the gravity of the name calling / moniker Wilson gets tagged with by people that will never give him credit due to his size.

ukeface:

Seymour · Oct 15, 2018

Sgt. Largent":2tsifu5n said:
Seymour":2tsifu5n said:

Sgt. Largent":2tsifu5n said:

TwistedHusky":2tsifu5n said:

Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.
.

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe Pete knows that Russell is who Russell is, and that's a very smart tough game manager type QB that thrives best when given a great run game to use play action to get the ball downfield, of which Russell DOES VERY WELL.

In a vacuum in another dimension I'd love to see what Andy Reid or Peterson in Philly could do with Russell.........but maybe they'd also find out that Russell has some very real limitations to his game that they can't crack, and he's best served to be in an offense like this where he's not expected to carry an offense.

Click to expand...

If Pete and John believe Wilson is a game manager and gave him an Arron Rodgers contract (-$1,000 per year), then they both need to be strung up by the balls and tortured.

Do you even know what a "game manager" is? :roll:

It is a derogatory name given to a below average QB that is only good enough to not screw things up. :177692: :141847_bnono: :roll:

You are either a franchise QB or a game manager, you cannot be both!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_manager

Click to expand...

Ha, I know people don't like that term, "game manager"........and I certainly don't mean it as a derogatory term, I love Russell.

What I mean by it is a QB that only throws the ball 20-30 times a game, and you don't rely on to carry the team for four quarters game in and game out. You rely on him to make smart decisions, protect the ball and make 3-4 explosive plays per game playing off your dominant run game.

So yeah, is that worth 33M+ a year? I have no idea, that scares the hell out of me. But you know what else scares the hell out of me? This team without Russell and going back to a revolving door of mediocre QB's for the next 20 years.

Well.....that does NOT mean that is what Wilson is. That is only what Pete is making him into because of his philosophy doesn't allow for dynamic offenses. That is also why Wilson + Pete = fail when it comes to taking even larger % of the cap then ever. Pete will never get that value from Wilson, not because of Russell's limits, but because of Pete's. One of them has to go (Russ @ $33M that is), and I say Pete or Pete needs to evolve which I don't see happening.

Mad Dog · Oct 15, 2018

TwistedHusky":1kuzjh40 said:
Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.

It is a risk either way.

But it is extremely unlikely that Pete continues to coach for 3 more years.

I hate watching some of the offenses that Pete has shoved onto us, so it is hard to be unbiased here. But we have a giant 30M a year bet we have to make and we are going to have to determine if it makes sense before that bet has to be made.

I think Pete can probably 7-9 or 9-7 this team for a few years, with some 10 win and 7 win season mixed in. I don't see him doing anything effective in the playoffs. But again, how long before he is gone anyway?

Wilson is either a guy that is being held back by Pete's offense or a guy that has a lot of flaws being masked by it. #1 being true would find Wilson a worthwhile $30M a year investment. #2 being true would be close to a disaster that killed our cap and held this team back for years if we locked in Wilson at $30M+ year with giant chunks of it guaranteed.

We have no way of knowing what we do have until Pete moves on. But what we do know is that Pete is likely not going to be here long regardless. So the time we have now is one of the times we have to determine if this can be a Steeleresque type of team.

Likely Wilson is someone in between. He's not Brady, Brees or Rodgers. But he's better than Cam Newton or Kirk Cousins. Likely the best comparison is Matt Ryan. Which makes him a 30 million a year QB. And I'm good with that. Wilson is clutch and that is a huge attribute to a QB. Pay him his money and keep the defense young and hungry. Pay your linemen and draft well in the secondary.

Sgt. Largent · Oct 15, 2018

Seymour":2630lsfd said:
Well.....that does NOT mean that is what Wilson is. That is only what Pete is making him into because of his philosophy doesn't allow for dynamic offenses. That is also why Wilson + Pete = fail when it comes to taking even larger % of the cap then ever. Pete will never get that value from Wilson, not because of Russell's limits, but because of Pete's. One of them has to go (Russ @ $33M that is), and I say Pete or Pete needs to evolve which I don't see happening.

I tend to agree with you, but like I said above we wouldn't know for sure until we see Russell with another coach/coordinator combo.

I'm 50/50 right now on keep the Russell/Pete train rolling. As a lifelong Hawk fan, I know how much it sucks to have a revolving door of crap coaches and crap QB's year after year.

To let Russell and/or Pete go is a gamble I'm not sure I'd pull the trigger on just yet. If we draft another young stud QB that can step in and run the offense well again when hopefully the D gets back to dominating?

Only then would I be 100% confident in letting Russell go. But we don't have that QB, so I can't commit to that.

rcaido · Oct 15, 2018

Sgt. Largent":fc071zty said:
Seymour":fc071zty said:

Sgt. Largent":fc071zty said:

TwistedHusky":fc071zty said:

Ultimately, the issue with keeping Pete is that you really won't know what you have got with Wilson.
.

Click to expand...

Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe Pete knows that Russell is who Russell is, and that's a very smart tough game manager type QB that thrives best when given a great run game to use play action to get the ball downfield, of which Russell DOES VERY WELL.

In a vacuum in another dimension I'd love to see what Andy Reid or Peterson in Philly could do with Russell.........but maybe they'd also find out that Russell has some very real limitations to his game that they can't crack, and he's best served to be in an offense like this where he's not expected to carry an offense.

Click to expand...

If Pete and John believe Wilson is a game manager and gave him an Arron Rodgers contract (-$1,000 per year), then they both need to be strung up by the balls and tortured.

Do you even know what a "game manager" is? :roll:

It is a derogatory name given to a below average QB that is only good enough to not screw things up. :177692: :141847_bnono: :roll:

You are either a franchise QB or a game manager, you cannot be both!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_manager

Click to expand...

Ha, I know people don't like that term, "game manager"........and I certainly don't mean it as a derogatory term, I love Russell.

What I mean by it is a QB that only throws the ball 20-30 times a game, and you don't rely on to carry the team for four quarters game in and game out. You rely on him to make smart decisions, protect the ball and make 3-4 explosive plays per game playing off your dominant run game.

So yeah, is that worth 33M+ a year? I have no idea, that scares the hell out of me. But you know what else scares the hell out of me? This team without Russell and going back to a revolving door of mediocre QB's for the next 20 years.

I guess game mangers dont win games either?

Interesting stat here...

Wilson has 19 4th quarter comebacks and 24gwd in his young career

Already more then the god Erin Rodgers

13 4th comeback and 20 gwd

Aslo Pete & Wilson combo has the 2nd best record since they been with each other. Yeah lets get rid of these non producers.

Seymour · Oct 15, 2018

Sgt. Largent":2usdv62j said:
Seymour":2usdv62j said:

Well.....that does NOT mean that is what Wilson is. That is only what Pete is making him into because of his philosophy doesn't allow for dynamic offenses. That is also why Wilson + Pete = fail when it comes to taking even larger % of the cap then ever. Pete will never get that value from Wilson, not because of Russell's limits, but because of Pete's. One of them has to go (Russ @ $33M that is), and I say Pete or Pete needs to evolve which I don't see happening.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you, but like I said above we wouldn't know for sure until we see Russell with another coach/coordinator combo.

I'm 50/50 right now on keep the Russell/Pete train rolling. As a lifelong Hawk fan, I know how much it sucks to have a revolving door of crap coaches and crap QB's year after year.

To let Russell and/or Pete go is a gamble I'm not sure I'd pull the trigger on just yet. If we draft another young stud QB that can step in and run the offense well again when hopefully the D gets back to dominating?

Only then would I be 100% confident in letting Russell go. But we don't have that QB, so I can't commit to that.

And because they have done nothing at QB since getting Wilson, Pete himself has failed to see his philosophy of needing a top 3 D to go all the way cannot be achieved with a QB taking the lions share of the cap. It leaves too big of a hole somewhere else because his D will be too expensive (2013 formula worked because Wilson, Wagner, Sherman were all on cheap contracts and he bought a defense) used to be Oline, now it's Dline and DB's but it will always popup somewhere.

toffee · Oct 15, 2018

For folks in the “fire Pete” Brigade, you guys must produce replacement candidates to make your argument legit?

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ImTheScientist · Oct 15, 2018

toffee":1ldasqbz said:
For folks in the “fire Pete” Brigade, you guys must produce replacement candidates to make your argument legit?

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Im going to fire PC. Then as my second move Im going to lean on JS to produce the best candidate.

rcaido · Oct 15, 2018

toffee":gk5rqip5 said:
For folks in the “fire Pete” Brigade, you guys must produce replacement candidates to make your argument legit?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These clowns can have a straight flush and would trade in their 9 to try to get a royal flush. Go fish

Mad Dog · Oct 15, 2018

Seymour":1vdj83oh said:
Sgt. Largent":1vdj83oh said:

Seymour":1vdj83oh said:

Well.....that does NOT mean that is what Wilson is. That is only what Pete is making him into because of his philosophy doesn't allow for dynamic offenses. That is also why Wilson + Pete = fail when it comes to taking even larger % of the cap then ever. Pete will never get that value from Wilson, not because of Russell's limits, but because of Pete's. One of them has to go (Russ @ $33M that is), and I say Pete or Pete needs to evolve which I don't see happening.

Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you, but like I said above we wouldn't know for sure until we see Russell with another coach/coordinator combo.

I'm 50/50 right now on keep the Russell/Pete train rolling. As a lifelong Hawk fan, I know how much it sucks to have a revolving door of crap coaches and crap QB's year after year.

To let Russell and/or Pete go is a gamble I'm not sure I'd pull the trigger on just yet. If we draft another young stud QB that can step in and run the offense well again when hopefully the D gets back to dominating?

Only then would I be 100% confident in letting Russell go. But we don't have that QB, so I can't commit to that.

Click to expand...

And because they have done nothing at QB since getting Wilson, Pete himself has failed to see his philosophy of needing a top 3 D to go all the way cannot be achieved with a QB taking the lions share of the cap. It leaves too big of a hole somewhere else because his D will be too expensive (2013 formula worked because Wilson, Wagner, Sherman were all on cheap contracts and he bought a defense) used to be Oline, now it's Dline and DB's but it will always popup somewhere.

I would say the bigger problem was the defense taking the lion's share of the cap leaving none for the OL. QB pay is a sunk cost. If you have a QB worth crap you have to pay him. Virtually all other positions are expendable and you could easily say the best route to repeat SB's was to trade Bennett, Earl, Sherm and Kam in 2015 and use the draft capital to build LOB Next Gen and the savings to get some decent OL.

In the end, I think the biggest thing Pete really screwed up on from 2015-2017 was keeping Tom Cable around. Watching how our line is functioning now and recalling those 2010-2012 Niner teams with Gore, Solari is a really good coach we should have kept to begin with when Pete joined the team.

Fire Pete

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