The massively underappreciated Brian Schottenheimer

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  • Popeyejones wrote:
    Mad Dog wrote:Disagree. It's entirely possible that the mediocre offense was elevated to a top 6 run game and pass game by that same boneheaded philosophy.

    If you run on 2nd and 10 when you should be passing you'll get more run yards per play that will elevate the stats of your running game.


    If true, this means that on a per-play basis the run game is even worse than it appears to be, and the Schotty should be calling run plays even less than the stats suggest he should be.

    Mad Dog wrote:If you run all the time, your play action becomes more effective and elevates the per play stats of your passing game.


    As much as we can tell this isn't as true as we think it is, but there's some limitations to just using count data for this, obviously.

    It is true. Baldwin is a cherry-picking troll.
    Russ saw his play-action completion percentage go up 6% in 18 vs. 17, largely because of a vastly improved running game.
    Tical21
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  • Tical21 wrote:It is true. Baldwin is a cherry-picking troll.
    Russ saw his play-action completion percentage go up 6% in 18 vs. 17, largely because of a vastly improved running game.


    Sorry, but I really disagree with this.

    CHERRY PICKING: To argue for the general truth of something, you pick a single way to measure that thing for a single player across the bare minimum number of seasons. What you're doing with Wilson is the definition of cherry picking.

    NOT CHERRY PICKING: To argue for the general truth of something, you look at multiple ways to measure that thing across all the players available across all the years of available data. That's what Baldwin is doing. That is the opposite of cherry picking.

    As I've alluded to I think there's major limitations to thinking about the relationship between running and play action passing using frequentest approaches (which most advanced stats use), but that doesn't mean they're all just bathwater, and given that we're making a frequentest argument about the run game, even those concerns aren't really relevant.*

    *(to convert back into english, I think the relationship between running plays and play action passing is much more important than can be picked up by these advanced stats, but that doesn't require running the ball a lot. It's about stuff like seeing how a backside safety reacts to outside runs on the opposite side of the field and stuff like that, which is something you only need to do once or twice to set that guy up (it doesn't take running the ball more than anyone else in the league to do that).
    Popeyejones
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  • In cherry-picking, I mean that Baldwin only includes data that supports his narrative, and discards anything that hurts it (i.e. 4th quarter data or data when certain score discrepancies are reached.) He's credited with 90% of the myth that there isn't a correlation between play-action and running success, but his data is wildly combed. I mean, I could investigate more if I felt it was warranted, but the breaker of his theory is literally the team that he covers. I'd argue that picking Wilson as my data source isn't cherry-picking, since it is over a full season of data. If it is true that there isn't a correlation between the running game and play-action, then Russell should not have had such a drastic improvement over his previous play-action numbers last season. I told people for years that if we get a running game going, Russ will see huge benefits in the form of play-action success. Baldwin argued strongly against this. We got a running game again, and Russ' play-action success goes through the roof. I don't know what other evidence would be needed, seems pretty cut-and-dry.

    The thing about your example of the backside safety being setup for a play-action pass is something that should show up in data somewhere. And it does, if you don't skew the metrics.
    Tical21
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  • Where do people keep finding these obscure stats to bash our offense with?

    There is only one stat that matters in football, points. Points = Wins. 3 and out percentage is meaningless when you WIN.

    "Figures lie, and liars figure." A favorite quote of Brock Huard. Stats can be deceiving. Like "When player X gets 100 yards or more rushing, the team wins more often." Insinuating that all the team needs to do is get Player X 100 or more yards rushing to increase their win percentage. When in actuality, teams with the lead, run the ball more. Cart before the horse and such.

    And those saying that Schottenheimer Senior was always an early out in the playoffs, know nothing about history or circumstances. He should have beat Denver and gone on to the Superbowl. Twice. But a fumble near the goal line ended their SB hopes.

    Marty Schottenheimer takes the lowly Browns with Bernie Kosar, to the AFC Championship game, 2 Years in a Row. The same Bernie Kosar that started his NFL career completing 50% and 58% of his passes, Marty took to better than 60%.

    If you look at Marty, he took poor teams to the playoffs. 3 times. But it's my humble opinion that he had poor support behind him. KC let him go, many say because of an unsubstantiated affair.

    San Diego fired him after a 14 - 2 season. Because he lost to the Patriots in the playoffs...with Rivers in his first starting season. albeit, after he sat behind Drew Brees for 2 years. Still, first year starting for Philip, his first playoff game, against the Patriots, lost 24-21.

    So much like his father, no matter how successful Brian Schottenheimer, is, people will bash him. And they will pull obscure statistics out to do so. Never mind that like his father, Brian has been to Back-to-Back AFC Championship games. Because this is a fan base that will bash OCs that don't throw the ball a lot, even though they may win a lot of games, or "only" win 1 Lombardi.

    Here's a stat for you. On a team that led the league in rushing, 160 yards per game, and when (rarely) healthy on the OLine, beat the hell out of opposing defenses, our "Crappy" OC managed to have his offense score the 2nd most points in team history, behind only Mike Holmgren's 2005 team led by an elite OLine and MVP running back. 428 vs 452

    The 2005 team 3rd down conversion rate? 39.6% 2018? 38.9% HORRIBLE! OMG!

    Rushing YPA? 2005: 4.7 2018? 4.8 I don't see 2 HOF Olinemen on the 2018 team anywhere. Let alone an MVP RB.


    Passing TD/INT: M. Hasselbeck: 24/9 R. Wilson: 35/7 Passing game wut?


    And one more just for fun: TD% (TDs per Pass Attempt) 2005: 5.3% 2018: 8.2%

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... a/2018.htm

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... a/2005.htm
    ivotuk
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  • Tical21 wrote:In cherry-picking, I mean that Baldwin only includes data that supports his narrative, and discards anything that hurts it (i.e. 4th quarter data or data when certain score discrepancies are reached.)


    I think this might just be a difference in perspective, TBH.

    He's not discarding any data, though.

    Instead, your critique is that he's not carving up the available data enough. Doing that, I think, risks running into what the statistician Andrew Gelman calls "the garden of forking paths" -- it can be useful as long as it is warranted, but it is often just a subtler form of p-hacking to try to get to a result.

    Tical21 wrote:
    I'd argue that picking Wilson as my data source isn't cherry-picking, since it is over a full season of data. If it is true that there isn't a correlation between the running game and play-action, then Russell should not have had such a drastic improvement over his previous play-action numbers last season.


    I hear what you're saying, but I don't think we know it's actually true. Is a change in completion percentage on play action passes of 5% from one year to the next actually "drastic"? How many standard deviations out are we talking about here? How many completed passes are we talking about when we're talking about a change of five percentage points in the overall completion percentage for these types of throws? If the difference is meaningful what else could account for it? Is completion percentage actually the best way to measure passing effectiveness? Is it better or worse than other measures of passing effectiveness for something like the ostensible relationship between running and play action passing?

    These are all the questions that become important when you decide to look at just one player across two years rather than throwing all the players and all the years into the hopper.

    Just by way of example vis-a-vis cherry picking, Drew Brees completed 8% more of his play action passes between 2017 and 2018 compared to Wilson's 5, and the Saints had the same run/pass ratio across those seasons. If we did EXACTLY what you did for Wilson but randomly did it for Brees instead, we'd conclude there was no relationship between play action completion % and run/pass ratio, the exact opposite of what you're concluding from randomly doing the same thing with WIlson instead of Brees.

    Tical21 wrote:
    The thing about your example of the backside safety being setup for a play-action pass is something that should show up in data somewhere. And it does, if you don't skew the metrics.


    TBF I don't think it would show up in the data we have because it's simply not a frequency thing and all of this stuff is measured in terms of frequency (which makes sense given the statistics people have to work with). And I think the people who study this stuff are for the most part pretty careful about acknowledging the limits of the claims their making -- you don't see anyone concluding from these findings that teams should NEVER run, for instance.

    In any case, though, I'm kind of a nerd for this statistics-based stuff, so I hope my post isn't taken as combative. It's not intended that way. :2thumbs:
    Popeyejones
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  • ivotuk wrote:Where do people keep finding these obscure stats to bash our offense with?

    There is only one stat that matters in football, points. Points = Wins. 3 and out percentage is meaningless when you WIN.

    "Figures lie, and liars figure." A favorite quote of Brock Huard. Stats can be deceiving. Like "When player X gets 100 yards or more rushing, the team wins more often." Insinuating that all the team needs to do is get Player X 100 or more yards rushing to increase their win percentage. When in actuality, teams with the lead, run the ball more. Cart before the horse and such.

    And those saying that Schottenheimer Senior was always an early out in the playoffs, know nothing about history or circumstances. He should have beat Denver and gone on to the Superbowl. Twice. But a fumble near the goal line ended their SB hopes.

    Marty Schottenheimer takes the lowly Browns with Bernie Kosar, to the AFC Championship game, 2 Years in a Row. The same Bernie Kosar that started his NFL career completing 50% and 58% of his passes, Marty took to better than 60%.

    If you look at Marty, he took poor teams to the playoffs. 3 times. But it's my humble opinion that he had poor support behind him. KC let him go, many say because of an unsubstantiated affair.

    San Diego fired him after a 14 - 2 season. Because he lost to the Patriots in the playoffs...with Rivers in his first starting season. albeit, after he sat behind Drew Brees for 2 years. Still, first year starting for Philip, his first playoff game, against the Patriots, lost 24-21.

    So much like his father, no matter how successful Brian Schottenheimer, is, people will bash him. And they will pull obscure statistics out to do so. Never mind that like his father, Brian has been to Back-to-Back AFC Championship games. Because this is a fan base that will bash OCs that don't throw the ball a lot, even though they may win a lot of games, or "only" win 1 Lombardi.

    Here's a stat for you. On a team that led the league in rushing, 160 yards per game, and when (rarely) healthy on the OLine, beat the hell out of opposing defenses, our "Crappy" OC managed to have his offense score the 2nd most points in team history, behind only Mike Holmgren's 2005 team led by an elite OLine and MVP running back. 428 vs 452

    The 2005 team 3rd down conversion rate? 39.6% 2018? 38.9% HORRIBLE! OMG!

    Rushing YPA? 2005: 4.7 2018? 4.8 I don't see 2 HOF Olinemen on the 2018 team anywhere. Let alone an MVP RB.


    Passing TD/INT: M. Hasselbeck: 24/9 R. Wilson: 35/7 Passing game wut?


    And one more just for fun: TD% (TDs per Pass Attempt) 2005: 5.3% 2018: 8.2%

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... a/2018.htm

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... a/2005.htm


    So I am confused if as you quote and then agree with ""Figures lie, and liars figure." A favorite quote of Brock Huard. Stats can be deceiving. " you then follow it up with stats and figures.

    That aside Shotty came in and did what PC wanted got the running game working again. So he did his job. Do I think we will win a Championship running it as much as we do, NO, do I think we can win a championship going run, run, pass 70+% of the time NO. DO I think they will change anything NO not as long as PC is here. Hopefully I am wrong but we will see.

    Yes Wilson had a great year, he was up in a lot of areas, and he was down in some as well. All that said the reality still is our BEST weapon is Wilson, and we are not using him enough, it cost us a play off game. PC even said they should have thrown more and earlier. Maybe that will change, we will see. Now do I think Shotty is "massively underappreciated" no he came in and did what was asked of him. Do I think he is a top OC, no, nor is he bottom of the pile. He is middle of the road, which is fine, .....for now.
    Last edited by John63 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    John63
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  • ivotuk wrote:There is only one stat that matters in football, points. Points = Wins. 3 and out percentage is meaningless when you WIN.

    "Figures lie, and liars figure." A favorite quote of Brock Huard. Stats can be deceiving. Like "When player X gets 100 yards or more rushing, the team wins more often." Insinuating that all the team needs to do is get Player X 100 or more yards rushing to increase their win percentage. When in actuality, teams with the lead, run the ball more. Cart before the horse and such.

    I agree with the spirit of your post but would go farther; Wins are the only stat that matters. If the Seahawks have the #20 ranked scoring offense in the NFL this season but win the Super Bowl then only a couple of posters here are going to be disappointed in the season. Much of the complexity when discussing football statistics is due to the intertwined nature of NFL offensive performance and NFL defensive performance.
    AgentDib
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  • Popeyejones wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:In cherry-picking, I mean that Baldwin only includes data that supports his narrative, and discards anything that hurts it (i.e. 4th quarter data or data when certain score discrepancies are reached.)


    I think this might just be a difference in perspective, TBH.

    He's not discarding any data, though.

    Instead, your critique is that he's not carving up the available data enough. Doing that, I think, risks running into what the statistician Andrew Gelman calls "the garden of forking paths" -- it can be useful as long as it is warranted, but it is often just a subtler form of p-hacking to try to get to a result.

    Tical21 wrote:
    I'd argue that picking Wilson as my data source isn't cherry-picking, since it is over a full season of data. If it is true that there isn't a correlation between the running game and play-action, then Russell should not have had such a drastic improvement over his previous play-action numbers last season.


    I hear what you're saying, but I don't think we know it's actually true. Is a change in completion percentage on play action passes of 5% from one year to the next actually "drastic"? How many standard deviations out are we talking about here? How many completed passes are we talking about when we're talking about a change of five percentage points in the overall completion percentage for these types of throws? If the difference is meaningful what else could account for it? Is completion percentage actually the best way to measure passing effectiveness? Is it better or worse than other measures of passing effectiveness for something like the ostensible relationship between running and play action passing?

    These are all the questions that become important when you decide to look at just one player across two years rather than throwing all the players and all the years into the hopper.

    Just by way of example vis-a-vis cherry picking, Drew Brees completed 8% more of his play action passes between 2017 and 2018 compared to Wilson's 5, and the Saints had the same run/pass ratio across those seasons. If we did EXACTLY what you did for Wilson but randomly did it for Brees instead, we'd conclude there was no relationship between play action completion % and run/pass ratio, the exact opposite of what you're concluding from randomly doing the same thing with WIlson instead of Brees.

    Tical21 wrote:
    The thing about your example of the backside safety being setup for a play-action pass is something that should show up in data somewhere. And it does, if you don't skew the metrics.


    TBF I don't think it would show up in the data we have because it's simply not a frequency thing and all of this stuff is measured in terms of frequency (which makes sense given the statistics people have to work with). And I think the people who study this stuff are for the most part pretty careful about acknowledging the limits of the claims their making -- you don't see anyone concluding from these findings that teams should NEVER run, for instance.

    In any case, though, I'm kind of a nerd for this statistics-based stuff, so I hope my post isn't taken as combative. It's not intended that way. :2thumbs:

    Actually, if you read Baldwin's story, he does strip a lot of the data. I'm not saying he should skew the data any certain way, I'm saying he shouldn't.

    I don't have raw numbers on this. So it's hard to dig further. Looking at Brees though, their run/pass ratio was more skewed to run this season vs 17 (48% vs 45%), and his play-action completion percentage and efficiency metrics all jumped pretty significantly as well.

    I'm not sure if completion % is the best measure, but seems fairly straight-forward. All the other efficiency metrics jumped in 2018 for Russ in a similar fashion, so pick whichever you'd like.

    I need to think of more examples of team that found increased rushing success but most other factors were similar.
    Tical21
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  • I will never be happy until the Seahawks have the #1 passing offense and #1 rushing offense.
    mistaowen
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  • mistaowen wrote:I will never be happy until the Seahawks have the #1 passing offense and #1 rushing offense.


    I wonder if that's ever been done in the modern salary cap era (post 49er/Cowboy dynasties of the 80's and early 90's).

    I'll be happy with more balance, creativity with playcalling and Russell and the offense not looking like hot garbage in the first half of most games.
    Sgt. Largent
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  • Tical -- will go back to the Baldwin story, which it sounds like I'm mischaracterizing some. Thanks!
    Popeyejones
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  • Go, go, go, go go, go, go, Schotty

    Call a run play,

    we gon' draft guys who play like All Day

    we gon' go I-double tight,

    run counter treys

    And you know Russ don't give a damn

    If it's a good play!

    You can run on 1st and ten,

    Rough up the defense,

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again.

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again.

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan.

    When I pull out my plays, you see fullbacks on rubs.

    When I roll out my left, it's receivers running bubbs.

    Coaches heard I mess with Rex, now they want to show me love

    When you win without QBs, and the media want to snub

    But game ain't really changed, first downs, move up

    I see Belichick with a strut that cheater get Tom prenups

    If you watch how I coach you'll mistake me for a genius or hack

    Been hit wit a few teams but they still want me back

    In the league then the owners saying "Schotty you're dropped"

    They want me, I want them to keep me like they kept Pop

    And holla in New York them Jets fans'll tell ya I'm loco

    And the plan is to put the rap game in a choke hold

    But damn it ain't my fault when Mark Sanchez buttfumbled

    I'm feelin' focused man, my money on my mind

    I got 4 years on the deal and I'm still on the grind

    Now Carroll said he feeling my style, he feeling my flow

    Bring back the power block scheme and we're ready to go.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man, if you follow my gameplan

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan

    My plays, my ways taught me the game

    That bought me all the way to here

    My runs, my traps, my counters, my draws

    Look I got hired and I'm going nowhere

    And you should love it, way more then you hate it

    Why are you mad? I thought that you'd be happy we run it

    I'm that spark that's gonna protect Russ for his next life

    You that backseat Twitter trying to coach without insight

    The game's on the line and we need a lead? It's on

    I wink my eye at Chris and pretend he's Marshawn

    If we're down by twenty, then continue the churn

    If you're talking about scoring homie, I ain't concerned

    I'm a tell you what Jeff told me cause go 'head switch the style up

    If the fans wanna hate then let 'em hate

    Watch the wins pile up

    Or we go total sandbox and let Russ be Russ

    You know where we all should be.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man

    if you follow my gameplan

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan

    Don't try to act like you ain't know where we been either, playa!

    Establish the run all the time, playa, so it's a problem pop off, playa, Beast Mode!
    King Dog
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  • King Dog wrote:Go, go, go, go go, go, go, Schotty

    Call a run play,

    we gon' draft guys who play like All Day

    we gon' go I-double tight,

    run counter treys

    And you know Russ don't give a damn

    If it's a good play!

    You can run on 1st and ten,

    Rough up the defense,

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again.

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again.

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan.

    When I pull out my plays, you see fullbacks on rubs.

    When I roll out my left, it's receivers running bubbs.

    Coaches heard I mess with Rex, now they want to show me love

    When you win without QBs, and the media want to snub

    But game ain't really changed, first downs, move up

    I see Belichick with a strut that cheater get Tom prenups

    If you watch how I coach you'll mistake me for a genius or hack

    Been hit wit a few teams but they still want me back

    In the league then the owners saying "Schotty you're dropped"

    They want me, I want them to keep me like they kept Pop

    And holla in New York them Jets fans'll tell ya I'm loco

    And the plan is to put the rap game in a choke hold

    But damn it ain't my fault when Mark Sanchez buttfumbled

    I'm feelin' focused man, my money on my mind

    I got 4 years on the deal and I'm still on the grind

    Now Carroll said he feeling my style, he feeling my flow

    Bring back the power block scheme and we're ready to go.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man, if you follow my gameplan

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan

    My plays, my ways taught me the game

    That bought me all the way to here

    My runs, my traps, my counters, my draws

    Look I got hired and I'm going nowhere

    And you should love it, way more then you hate it

    Why are you mad? I thought that you'd be happy we run it

    I'm that spark that's gonna protect Russ for his next life

    You that backseat Twitter trying to coach without insight

    The game's on the line and we need a lead? It's on

    I wink my eye at Chris and pretend he's Marshawn

    If we're down by twenty, then continue the churn

    If you're talking about scoring homie, I ain't concerned

    I'm a tell you what Jeff told me cause go 'head switch the style up

    If the fans wanna hate then let 'em hate

    Watch the wins pile up

    Or we go total sandbox and let Russ be Russ

    You know where we all should be.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man

    if you follow my gameplan

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan

    Don't try to act like you ain't know where we been either, playa!

    Establish the run all the time, playa, so it's a problem pop off, playa, Beast Mode!


    wtf
    MontanaHawk05
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    King Dog wrote:Go, go, go, go go, go, go, Schotty

    Call a run play,

    we gon' draft guys who play like All Day

    we gon' go I-double tight,

    run counter treys

    And you know Russ don't give a damn

    If it's a good play!

    You can run on 1st and ten,

    Rough up the defense,

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again.

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again.

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan.

    When I pull out my plays, you see fullbacks on rubs.

    When I roll out my left, it's receivers running bubbs.

    Coaches heard I mess with Rex, now they want to show me love

    When you win without QBs, and the media want to snub

    But game ain't really changed, first downs, move up

    I see Belichick with a strut that cheater get Tom prenups

    If you watch how I coach you'll mistake me for a genius or hack

    Been hit wit a few teams but they still want me back

    In the league then the owners saying "Schotty you're dropped"

    They want me, I want them to keep me like they kept Pop

    And holla in New York them Jets fans'll tell ya I'm loco

    And the plan is to put the rap game in a choke hold

    But damn it ain't my fault when Mark Sanchez buttfumbled

    I'm feelin' focused man, my money on my mind

    I got 4 years on the deal and I'm still on the grind

    Now Carroll said he feeling my style, he feeling my flow

    Bring back the power block scheme and we're ready to go.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man, if you follow my gameplan

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll, I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan

    My plays, my ways taught me the game

    That bought me all the way to here

    My runs, my traps, my counters, my draws

    Look I got hired and I'm going nowhere

    And you should love it, way more then you hate it

    Why are you mad? I thought that you'd be happy we run it

    I'm that spark that's gonna protect Russ for his next life

    You that backseat Twitter trying to coach without insight

    The game's on the line and we need a lead? It's on

    I wink my eye at Chris and pretend he's Marshawn

    If we're down by twenty, then continue the churn

    If you're talking about scoring homie, I ain't concerned

    I'm a tell you what Jeff told me cause go 'head switch the style up

    If the fans wanna hate then let 'em hate

    Watch the wins pile up

    Or we go total sandbox and let Russ be Russ

    You know where we all should be.

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man

    if you follow my gameplan

    You can run on 1st and ten

    Rough up the defense

    Look Carroll I moved the sticks when I hit them there again,

    I'm into clock control,

    I ain't into sequences,

    So bring up an eighth man if you follow my gameplan

    Don't try to act like you ain't know where we been either, playa!

    Establish the run all the time, playa, so it's a problem pop off, playa, Beast Mode!


    wtf



    lol

    http://sports.mynorthwest.com/category/ ... +and+Moore
    King Dog
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  • Poor netiquette to post like that. It's only 1 step better than posting longswords.
    flv
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  • I'm not a big Brian Schottenheimer fan but I was a lot kinder about his time with the Jets and Rams than other fans of those teams were after his time with them. Scottenheimer has flaws which he can't or won't address. He sticks to a game plan even if it isn't working and time remaining dictates he should change. He also has some plays in his playbook that wouldn't work at any level of football. That said he also has major strengths. He won't overlook his team's strengths or his opponent's weaknesses when it comes to planning. If your team's strength is running inside and the opponent's weakness is out-pattern passes to the TE you're going to see a lot of inside runs and out pattern passes to the TE.

    As an OC he'll get you closer to 100% of what is achievable in terms of yards than coaches who want to run their own scheme regardless of personnel, or coaches who play hunches. He can keep you in games when you probably aren't good enough or shouldn't be in that game on that given Sunday. Ultimately though his flaws are a killer and in close games he'll be a sub .400 OC.
    flv
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  • mistaowen wrote:I will never be happy until the Seahawks have the #1 passing offense and #1 rushing offense.

    Don't forget the #1 defense at the same time, as well. That's the only way to be happy, right there.
    RolandDeschain
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  • flv wrote:Poor netiquette to post like that. It's only 1 step better than posting longswords.


    Image
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  • This article was written Oct 4, 2018. Nevertheless it seems pretty spot on when it comes to Shotty.

    https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/10/04/mailbag-why-do-teams-keep-hiring-brian-schottenheimer/amp/

    Through his career as an NFL offensive coordinator, his teams have never finished in the top 10 in total yards, and only once—with the 2008 Jets—in the top 10 in total points. More often, his offenses will finish in the bottom third of the NFL in both categories, and the passing offenses have lagged severely behind.


    The top 10 in points has now happened twice in his career when including the 2018 Hawks. I don't think it's a coincidence that both of those teams featured a dynamic QB. Favre and Wilson. So there's that.
    MD5eahawks
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  • MD5eahawks wrote:This article was written Oct 4, 2018. Nevertheless it seems pretty spot on when it comes to Shotty.

    https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/10/04/mailbag-why-do-teams-keep-hiring-brian-schottenheimer/amp/

    Through his career as an NFL offensive coordinator, his teams have never finished in the top 10 in total yards, and only once—with the 2008 Jets—in the top 10 in total points. More often, his offenses will finish in the bottom third of the NFL in both categories, and the passing offenses have lagged severely behind.


    The top 10 in points has now happened twice in his career when including the 2018 Hawks. I don't think it's a coincidence that both of those teams featured a dynamic QB. Favre and Wilson. So there's that.


    Always appreciate links.

    I would only point out, that the October article was but a review of play thru September with a new offensive line coach, coordinator and offensive. Much of September was spent sorting out the offense. What followed September was a much more complete insight into things to come from Schottenheimer and Carroll working together.
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  • Seanhawk wrote:[img]

    lol. I was referring to ascii longswords. I've seen them thousands of lines long. Absolute thread killers.
    flv
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  • flv wrote:
    Seanhawk wrote:[img]

    lol. I was referring to ascii longswords. I've seen them thousands of lines long. Absolute thread killers.


    Yes but that Long Sword can kill more then just a thread :)
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  • flv wrote:I'm not a big Brian Schottenheimer fan but I was a lot kinder about his time with the Jets and Rams than other fans of those teams were after his time with them. Scottenheimer has flaws which he can't or won't address. He sticks to a game plan even if it isn't working and time remaining dictates he should change. He also has some plays in his playbook that wouldn't work at any level of football. That said he also has major strengths. He won't overlook his team's strengths or his opponent's weaknesses when it comes to planning. If your team's strength is running inside and the opponent's weakness is out-pattern passes to the TE you're going to see a lot of inside runs and out pattern passes to the TE.

    As an OC he'll get you closer to 100% of what is achievable in terms of yards than coaches who want to run their own scheme regardless of personnel, or coaches who play hunches. He can keep you in games when you probably aren't good enough or shouldn't be in that game on that given Sunday. Ultimately though his flaws are a killer and in close games he'll be a sub .400 OC.


    Not sure in close games he will be .400 here. In the end the one thing we do know about PC is if it is close he will take the leash of Wilson, and with no leash Wilson will win more than he will loose. The problem is we don't need to be playing as many close games as we do, if they just removed the leash from the beginning of the game.
    Last edited by John63 on Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    John63
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  • MD5eahawks wrote:This article was written Oct 4, 2018. Nevertheless it seems pretty spot on when it comes to Shotty.

    https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/10/04/mailbag-why-do-teams-keep-hiring-brian-schottenheimer/amp/

    Through his career as an NFL offensive coordinator, his teams have never finished in the top 10 in total yards, and only once—with the 2008 Jets—in the top 10 in total points. More often, his offenses will finish in the bottom third of the NFL in both categories, and the passing offenses have lagged severely behind.


    The top 10 in points has now happened twice in his career when including the 2018 Hawks. I don't think it's a coincidence that both of those teams featured a dynamic QB. Favre and Wilson. So there's that.


    Proving he needs a great QB to even fun an okay offense.
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  • John63 wrote:
    MD5eahawks wrote:This article was written Oct 4, 2018. Nevertheless it seems pretty spot on when it comes to Shotty.

    https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2018/10/04/mailbag-why-do-teams-keep-hiring-brian-schottenheimer/amp/

    Through his career as an NFL offensive coordinator, his teams have never finished in the top 10 in total yards, and only once—with the 2008 Jets—in the top 10 in total points. More often, his offenses will finish in the bottom third of the NFL in both categories, and the passing offenses have lagged severely behind.


    The top 10 in points has now happened twice in his career when including the 2018 Hawks. I don't think it's a coincidence that both of those teams featured a dynamic QB. Favre and Wilson. So there's that.


    Proving he needs a great QB to even fun an okay offense.

    Simple and obvious. Sometimes people can't see what's in front of their face. I think the "his offenses will finish in the bottom third of the NFL in both categories, and the passing offenses have lagged severely behind" portion should be what raises the eyebrows.
    MD5eahawks
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  • Scottenheimer's record in close games, (games decided by 8 points or less), is far better than I thought it was. He was 25-22 with the Jets during their 51-45 overall record, and he was 8-10-1 with the Rams during their 20-27-1 overall record. I can't say it was his offense or the team's defense that was ultimately responsible, and i'm still not a big fan, but labelling him as a sub .400 coach is close games is unjustified. :oops:

    ...even if the Seahawks were 5-6 in 1-score games last year.
    flv
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  • He is below average.

    Bev+Solari is probably better than Schotty+Solari

    Solari is the real hero.

    If Schotty's name was John Smith he'd be coaching at some directional school by now.
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  • agreed.

    It's not like the guy got his job due to nepotism.

    When I think under appreciated, the name Schottenheimer is right at the top of the list. List also includes Freddie Prinze, Jr. Think of what they have brought to the world
    Hawk Strap
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  • Smellyman wrote:Bev+Solari is probably better than Schotty+Solari

    Absolutely not.
    RolandDeschain
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  • He Marty ball'd the Seahawks right out of the playoffs, there is nothing to appreciate. He is still better than Bevell, but that isn't saying much.

    OP should be praising Mike Solari instead. He is the biggest reason why they improved.


    @Tical.

    Russell Wilson doesn't need an elite running game to be an elite PA passer. He was better in 2016 with an anemic running game.

    Wilson is a beast that props up the under performers around him, he has been doing it his whole career. You should apreciate that more.






    Sam Gold recently did a breakdown on Luck vs Wilson as pure passers, factoring in scheme.Sam Gold pointed out how their inefficient scheme puts Wilson in constant 3rd and longs, and then Wilson bails them out.




    Wilson consistently has less open receivers, worse O-Line, and unoptimal play calling.

    Wilson is by no means perfect, he has his flaws, as every elite QB does. But make no mistake, Wilson last year propped up a 5-11 type of offense and made it a respectable 10-6 type of offense.

    The defense is going to have to win the championships, as Pete has too tight of a leash on the O, for them to ever maximize their true ceiling.

    That is where everyone's energy needs to lie. Getting the defense to an elite level again. That will be the difference if the Seahawks ever become a dominant team again. It has to happen on defense.
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  • Great video.

    Can we trade for Reich? schotty is an unimaginative turd. Spot on at the beginning, 'wasting Wilson's talents.'
    Smellyman
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  • Most of you clowns wanting Schotty gone right now, it took several years (or more) to realize Bevell sucked.

    Give me a break. Read up on offensive schemes then analyze what we do, and WHEN we do it under Schotty compared to Bevell. Solari is a bigger upgrade to the O-line than Schotty is to the offense, but it's not the huge gap many believe it to be.
    RolandDeschain
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  • The good news is, Schotty has tons of room for improvement going forward. Better YAC, better 3rd down %, etc etc. If you don't think little things like that make a difference to the overall performance of the offense then there's no point in conversation about it. Deny that there is room for improvement and be done with it.
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  • The OC isn't going to mean squat here as long as Pete Ball is in play. Pete needs a #1 defense to win it all because he is limited by himself only.

    :snack:
    Seymour
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  • Seymour wrote:The OC isn't going to mean squat here as long as Pete Ball is in play. Pete needs a #1 defense to win it all because he is limited by himself only.

    :snack:


    Pretty much. The OC can help, but with the offense on a tight leash until the final 2 mins of the 1st half. The OC & QB are performing with one arm tied behind their backs.

    O-Line & Defense are far more important for how Pete wants to build his teams.
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  • By way of observation, these are among the same words and phrases we saw during the Chuck Knox era.

    "A stubborn headed refusal to ...............

    " ....... you have to have an imaginative modern offense that isn't ..........

    " ...........and that's by having a boneheaded offensive philosophy .............

    "It is beyond obvious, the offense has to get more creative ..............

    " ......... but with the offense on a tight leash......................

    " .......... performing with one arm tied behind their backs ......


    Many find a run 1st philosophy intolerable because they are not entertained. Instead, they are all in on a pass first offense because of individual preference. Personal preferences drive much of what is posted here.
    Jville
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  • flv wrote:Scottenheimer's record in close games, (games decided by 8 points or less), is far better than I thought it was. He was 25-22 with the Jets during their 51-45 overall record, and he was 8-10-1 with the Rams during their 20-27-1 overall record. I can't say it was his offense or the team's defense that was ultimately responsible, and i'm still not a big fan, but labelling him as a sub .400 coach is close games is unjustified. :oops:

    ...even if the Seahawks were 5-6 in 1-score games last year.



    So across these three stops he's 38-38-2 in games decided by 8 points or less. He's .500 perfectly.

    This is what we'd expect, as over time one socre games* are coin flips, and for the most part you'd find the exact same thing with everybody.**


    *This is usually done with 3 points or 7 points, not sure why you picked 8 (which is debatable, given that the 2 pt conversion rate is slightly under 50%), but I think we can extrapolate.

    **The exception to this is really, really good teams tend to over-perform on average in one score games and really, really bad teams tend to under-perform, but that's easily explainable and doesn't contradict the basic finding. In essence, really good teams tend to go up early and really bad teams tend to go down early, so by the time you get to the fourth quarter the good teams are bleeding out the clock, meaning sometimes the bad teams "lose" one score games that they were never really in to begin with, and the good teams "win" one score games that are only one score games to begin with because of clock bleeding.
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  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    Smellyman wrote:Bev+Solari is probably better than Schotty+Solari

    Absolutely not.

    Agree!
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  • Popeyejones wrote:So across these three stops he's 38-38-2 in games decided by 8 points or less. He's .500 perfectly.

    This is what we'd expect, as over time one socre games* are coin flips, and for the most part you'd find the exact same thing with everybody.**


    *This is usually done with 3 points or 7 points, not sure why you picked 8 (which is debatable, given that the 2 pt conversion rate is slightly under 50%), but I think we can extrapolate.

    **The exception to this is really, really good teams tend to over-perform on average in one score games and really, really bad teams tend to under-perform, but that's easily explainable and doesn't contradict the basic finding. In essence, really good teams tend to go up early and really bad teams tend to go down early, so by the time you get to the fourth quarter the good teams are bleeding out the clock, meaning sometimes the bad teams "lose" one score games that they were never really in to begin with, and the good teams "win" one score games that are only one score games to begin with because of clock bleeding.

    I weighed in on this topic because i've watched quite a lot of Schottenheimer's NFL career as an OC. He's 81- 78-1 as an OC. He's 38-38-1 in close games. Both numbers surprised me. There wasn't an agenda behind 8 points or 7 points. The agenda was in my perception that he was well under .500 in close games, which didn't hold true. I don't know if 7 points would be significantly different but I doubt it. There are several possible reasons for the discrepancy. #1 is obviously that my memory is faulty. It's possible he's a good 4th quarter OC who turned narrow wins into big wins and big defeats into narrow defeats. It's also possible he's a bad 4th quarter OC who turns narrow defeats into big defeats and close wins into close losses. I honestly think that's more accurate than him being a good 4th quarter OC but i'm not going to spend the time collating 4th quarter point differentials. In his previous 2 NFL stints he almost always had an offense that had less cap resources put into it than the team's defense. In those circumstances it's tough to look good and I always tried to take that into account. If there's 1 game that sticks with me it's a Rams-49ers game when the 49ers had injuries at NT and ILB and the Rams had Steven Jackson. The very predictable game plan was to run the ball up the middle - except Jackson was unavailable leaving the Rams with outside RB Richardson and the 49ers weren't so weak up the middle. The Rams ended up crashing the A-gaps 20 times for about 24 yards. At some point you would have thought Schottenheimer would have adjusted, but it didn't happen. 0 sweeps, 0 reverses, and another big loss. Overall he's not a bad OC. He's an OC whose stubbornness drags him back to being average.
    flv
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  • Jville wrote:By way of observation, these are among the same words and phrases we saw during the Chuck Knox era.

    "A stubborn headed refusal to ...............

    " ....... you have to have an imaginative modern offense that isn't ..........

    " ...........and that's by having a boneheaded offensive philosophy .............

    "It is beyond obvious, the offense has to get more creative ..............

    " ......... but with the offense on a tight leash......................

    " .......... performing with one arm tied behind their backs ......


    Many find a run 1st philosophy intolerable because they are not entertained. Instead, they are all in on a pass first offense because of individual preference. Personal preferences drive much of what is posted here.


    I am a balanced offense guy 50/50. With a shade towards the run. 50.5 to 49.5. Hardly pass happy.

    You can run too much, and you can pass too much.

    The key is to find the sweet spot.

    Context wise Pete wanted to over correct because of the previous two seasons of not being to run the ball at all. They will still be run 1st this year again, but they are going to dial it back a tick.

    They will run playaction more on 1st down this year, and they will throw to the backs more in general.

    Their 1st down run % will drop down from 64% I guarantee it.
    Fade
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  • Something being left out of the critique of Schottenheimer, who the head coach was, and who his QB was.


    NY Coaches: Eric Mangina, Rex Ryan QBs: Chad Pennington, Kellen Clemens, Brett Favre, Mark "The Sanchize" Sanchez, Geno Smith

    Rams Coach: Jeff Fisher QBs: Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill.

    Do I think Schotty is a top talent at OC? No. But he's a very good OC that can get us to, and win a SuperB Owl. Even with a mediocre defense.

    During the last half of the season the Seahawks were scoring 30 points a game. That's 4+ touchdowns every game. He's a good OC, and I expect we go deep in the playoffs this year now that everyone has learned the offense.
    ivotuk
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  • ivotuk wrote:Something being left out of the critique of Schottenheimer, who the head coach was, and who his QB was.


    NY Coaches: Eric Mangina, Rex Ryan QBs: Chad Pennington, Kellen Clemens, Brett Favre, Mark "The Sanchize" Sanchez, Geno Smith

    Rams Coach: Jeff Fisher QBs: Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill.

    Do I think Schotty is a top talent at OC? No. But he's a very good OC that can get us to, and win a SuperB Owl. Even with a mediocre defense.

    During the last half of the season the Seahawks were scoring 30 points a game. That's 4+ touchdowns every game. He's a good OC, and I expect we go deep in the playoffs this year now that everyone has learned the offense.


    The thing that strikes me though is that maybe, perhaps, he picked up some very conservative best practices based on the QB talent he had in the stable. Is RW as bereft of talent as these other quarterbacks? Certianly not, but some of the telltale signs of Schotty's overall ethos are already here.
    Last edited by Jville on Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    Reason: Tidying up the language for PG-13 consideration
    mrt144
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  • ivotuk wrote:Something being left out of the critique of Schottenheimer, who the head coach was, and who his QB was.


    NY Coaches: Eric Mangina, Rex Ryan QBs: Chad Pennington, Kellen Clemens, Brett Favre, Mark "The Sanchize" Sanchez, Geno Smith

    Rams Coach: Jeff Fisher QBs: Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill.

    Do I think Schotty is a top talent at OC? No. But he's a very good OC that can get us to, and win a SuperB Owl. Even with a mediocre defense.

    During the last half of the season the Seahawks were scoring 30 points a game. That's 4+ touchdowns every game. He's a good OC, and I expect we go deep in the playoffs this year now that everyone has learned the offense.


    He helped Wilson improve his pocket mechanics, and made him a better QB. He along with Solari remade their running game, adding far more varriance to it which it desperately needed. Schotty also improved the redzone pass-playcalling last year. This year I would like him to see him improve his play selection on 2nd and long. Way too many giveup plays on that down & distance.

    That DAL playoff game was absolutely brutal though. Whenever I start to get optomistic, I think about that game and wonder how a good OC, takes the ball out of his best player's hands play after play after play. When he was effective, when given his very limited opportunities. (8 YPPA) vs (2 YPRA).

    Its going to take a while for me after that performance to rubber stamp him as very good. Very good gets you head coaching offers.

    Right now he is in the easily better than Bevell category, and I need to see another season due to him spending so many seasons with Bad QBs. and mediocre HCs as you mentioned. There really isn't enough there to actually evaluate. Unless you subscribe to the theory he made them Bad QBs. I don't, but also too he has never developed a young star QB as an OC either.

    The book on him is he can turn you into a great running team, and he can Marty Ball you right out of the playoffs.

    That is exactly what happened in year 1. Spooky.
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  • I'm not going to hold anything Schottenheimer did with the Jets against him.

    The Jets, as a franchise, have had a top-10 scoring offense twice and a top-10 yards offense 4 times IN THE LAST 30 YEARS.

    In fact, Schotty had the ONLY top-10 yardage offense for the Jets in the past TWENTY years.

    So shitting on him because he didn't field top-10 offenses with the Jets is absurd in the extreme.
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  • Fade wrote:
    ivotuk wrote:Something being left out of the critique of Schottenheimer, who the head coach was, and who his QB was.


    NY Coaches: Eric Mangina, Rex Ryan QBs: Chad Pennington, Kellen Clemens, Brett Favre, Mark "The Sanchize" Sanchez, Geno Smith

    Rams Coach: Jeff Fisher QBs: Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill.

    Do I think Schotty is a top talent at OC? No. But he's a very good OC that can get us to, and win a SuperB Owl. Even with a mediocre defense.

    During the last half of the season the Seahawks were scoring 30 points a game. That's 4+ touchdowns every game. He's a good OC, and I expect we go deep in the playoffs this year now that everyone has learned the offense.


    He helped Wilson improve his pocket mechanics, and made him a better QB. He along with Solari remade their running game, adding far more varriance to it which it desperately needed. Schotty also improved the redzone pass-playcalling last year. This year I would like him to see him improve his play selection on 2nd and long. Way too many giveup plays on that down & distance.

    That DAL playoff game was absolutely brutal though. Whenever I start to get optomistic, I think about that game and wonder how a good OC, takes the ball out of his best player's hands play after play after play. When he was effective, when given his very limited opportunities. (8 YPPA) vs (2 YPRA).

    Its going to take a while for me after that performance to rubber stamp him as very good. Very good gets you head coaching offers.

    Right now he is in the easily better than Bevell category, and I need to see another season due to him spending so many seasons with Bad QBs. and mediocre HCs as you mentioned. There really isn't enough there to actually evaluate. Unless you subscribe to the theory he made them Bad QBs. I don't, but also too he has never developed a young star QB as an OC either.

    The book on him is he can turn you into a great running team, and he can Marty Ball you right out of the playoffs.

    That is exactly what happened in year 1. Spooky.

    At what point in that game would you have abandoned the running game?
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  • Jville wrote:By way of observation, these are among the same words and phrases we saw during the Chuck Knox era.

    "A stubborn headed refusal to ...............

    " ....... you have to have an imaginative modern offense that isn't ..........

    " ...........and that's by having a boneheaded offensive philosophy .............

    "It is beyond obvious, the offense has to get more creative ..............

    " ......... but with the offense on a tight leash......................

    " .......... performing with one arm tied behind their backs ......


    Many find a run 1st philosophy intolerable because they are not entertained. Instead, they are all in on a pass first offense because of individual preference. Personal preferences drive much of what is posted here.

    Yep, there's a lot of non-expert experts round these parts.
    Passing attacks are always more action packed, and run first game plans, where you are most times grinding out wins almost always seem to leave us fans feeling like there's just something missing.
    As already shown, Offensive stats for last season, rival Mike Holmgren's 2005's Offense, and that is actually a GOOD thing, AND, Doug Baldwin was playing INJURED for most of 2018, another of Wilson's targets, Will Dissley (sp) was injured and out, so Wilson Lockett & Carson were pretty much the only healthy players THAT GOT KEY'D ON in the Dallas (AWAY GAME) loss.
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  • I want the team to pound the crap out of the rock. It just seems like at times, you need to decide how many times you're going to bash your head against the wall before you try something new. This team could CLEARLY throw the ball on Dallas. Very good chance they win that game if they let Russ actually chuck it around and let him be who he is.
    I prefer a run the rock, eat the clock approach. Just seems like sometimes, they wait way too long to adjust to something else IF the running game isn't working. But, they were the top running game in the NFL, so easier said than done obviously.
    SoulfishHawk
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 12172
    Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:59 am
    Location: Sammamish, WA


  • Fade wrote:He Marty ball'd the Seahawks right out of the playoffs, there is nothing to appreciate. He is still better than Bevell, but that isn't saying much.

    OP should be praising Mike Solari instead. He is the biggest reason why they improved.


    @Tical.

    Russell Wilson doesn't need an elite running game to be an elite PA passer. He was better in 2016 with an anemic running game.

    Wilson is a beast that props up the under performers around him, he has been doing it his whole career. You should apreciate that more.






    Sam Gold recently did a breakdown on Luck vs Wilson as pure passers, factoring in scheme.Sam Gold pointed out how their inefficient scheme puts Wilson in constant 3rd and longs, and then Wilson bails them out.




    Wilson consistently has less open receivers, worse O-Line, and unoptimal play calling.

    Wilson is by no means perfect, he has his flaws, as every elite QB does. But make no mistake, Wilson last year propped up a 5-11 type of offense and made it a respectable 10-6 type of offense.

    The defense is going to have to win the championships, as Pete has too tight of a leash on the O, for them to ever maximize their true ceiling.

    That is where everyone's energy needs to lie. Getting the defense to an elite level again. That will be the difference if the Seahawks ever become a dominant team again. It has to happen on defense.

    There is a lot of really flawed logic in that video. For example:
    It is in my strong opinion that Pete Carroll and Brian Schottenheimer are wasting Wilson's talents and they're being a lot more inefficient than they could be - even if you compare the Seahawks and Colts on first-downs, Seattle was actually more efficient at passing passing than the Colts, yet they did it literally half as much. This just doesn't make any sense. Yes, you could argue that increasing passing attempts might decrease efficiency, but this effect is not enough to sway the relative gain you get from passing.


    He believes the Seahawks are being less efficient than they could be on offense. He then tells us that they are more efficient than the Colts passing the ball while having half the number of attempts. He concludes that even though adding more passing attempts might decrease the Seahawk's efficiency, it's not enough to offset the relative gain from passing... What?

    Here's the thing, the Seahawk's system is by definition maximizing Wilson's efficiency. You can argue that his talents are being under utilized and that the under-utilization, despite being more efficient, is not better for the offense as a whole. That's fine. Just don't lead your argument by describing the Seahawk's system as being 'a lot more inefficient than it could be' with regards to Wilson's talents while only providing evidence to the contrary and failing to account for the degrees of freedom in your analysis (the bold-ed section).
    knownone
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 1952
    Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:10 am


  • I doubt I'm the only one who wishes this team would go for the throat in the 1st half of games. This whole feel each other out in the first half stuff gets old. I see WHY they do it, but sometimes it just seems like the first half of so many games, they are just going thru the motions.
    SoulfishHawk
    NET Pro Bowler
     
    Posts: 12172
    Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:59 am
    Location: Sammamish, WA


  • Fade wrote:He Marty ball'd the Seahawks right out of the playoffs, there is nothing to appreciate. He is still better than Bevell, but that isn't saying much.

    OP should be praising Mike Solari instead. He is the biggest reason why they improved.


    @Tical.

    Russell Wilson doesn't need an elite running game to be an elite PA passer. He was better in 2016 with an anemic running game.

    Wilson is a beast that props up the under performers around him, he has been doing it his whole career. You should apreciate that more.






    Sam Gold recently did a breakdown on Luck vs Wilson as pure passers, factoring in scheme.Sam Gold pointed out how their inefficient scheme puts Wilson in constant 3rd and longs, and then Wilson bails them out.




    Wilson consistently has less open receivers, worse O-Line, and unoptimal play calling.

    Wilson is by no means perfect, he has his flaws, as every elite QB does. But make no mistake, Wilson last year propped up a 5-11 type of offense and made it a respectable 10-6 type of offense.

    The defense is going to have to win the championships, as Pete has too tight of a leash on the O, for them to ever maximize their true ceiling.

    That is where everyone's energy needs to lie. Getting the defense to an elite level again. That will be the difference if the Seahawks ever become a dominant team again. It has to happen on defense.


    LOL never going to happen, you are asking him to give props to Wilson, will not happen.
    John63
    NET Veteran
     
    Posts: 515
    Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:56 pm


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