What Was Carroll Thinking?

Often at times this question will get asked a lot as PC makes head-scratching decisions... but then I remember five simple perhaps cliche words of part of his football philosphy...

Separation Is In The Preperation

And as stupid as it was to continue trying to score a TD at the end of the first half or declining that penalty in the 4th... he allows his team to live or die in critical real game moments and puts it on his guys to win on the field... and what seems like failures is going to prepare them all better as they head into the Play-Offs. Where its do or die football.

Pandion Haliaetus":3797ba18 said:

Often at times this question will get asked a lot as PC makes head-scratching decisions... but then I remember five simple perhaps cliche words of part of his football philosphy...

Separation Is In The Preperation

And as stupid as it was to continue trying to score a TD at the end of the first half or declining that penalty in the 4th... he allows his team to live or die in critical real game moments and puts it on his guys to win on the field... and what seems like failures is going to prepare them all better as they head into the Play-Offs. Where its do or die football.

Click to expand...

What was wrong with declining the penalty?

That was the right move imo.

Force their hand. Make them execute.

Sounds good but I think they should have kicked the field goal. Flat out...

Hawkpower":equtyxh8 said:

Pandion Haliaetus":equtyxh8 said:

Often at times this question will get asked a lot as PC makes head-scratching decisions... but then I remember five simple perhaps cliche words of part of his football philosphy...

Separation Is In The Preperation

And as stupid as it was to continue trying to score a TD at the end of the first half or declining that penalty in the 4th... he allows his team to live or die in critical real game moments and puts it on his guys to win on the field... and what seems like failures is going to prepare them all better as they head into the Play-Offs. Where its do or die football.

Click to expand...

What was wrong with declining the penalty?

That was the right move imo.

Force their hand. Make them execute.

Click to expand...

Personally, I would have preferred to force Colin Kaepernick to pass on 3rd and 6 (and then perhaps 4th and 6). He's not very good at completing passing in those situations at the end of games. And it plays more to the strength of our defense.

hawknation2014":16xmiv15 said:

Hawkpower":16xmiv15 said:

Pandion Haliaetus":16xmiv15 said:

Often at times this question will get asked a lot as PC makes head-scratching decisions... but then I remember five simple perhaps cliche words of part of his football philosphy...

Separation Is In The Preperation

And as stupid as it was to continue trying to score a TD at the end of the first half or declining that penalty in the 4th... he allows his team to live or die in critical real game moments and puts it on his guys to win on the field... and what seems like failures is going to prepare them all better as they head into the Play-Offs. Where its do or die football.

Click to expand...

What was wrong with declining the penalty?

That was the right move imo.

Force their hand. Make them execute.

Click to expand...

Personally, I would have preferred to force Colin Kaepernick to pass on 3rd and 6 (and then perhaps 4th and 6). He's not very good at completing passing in those situations at the end of games. And it plays more to the strength of our defense.

Click to expand...

3rd and 6 vs 4th and 1.... it's a tough call. I'd probably take the 3rd and 6 though. The end of the half though on 3rd down they should have kicked the FG, no doubt about it.

hawknation2014":3lxuwigq said:

Hawkpower":3lxuwigq said:

Pandion Haliaetus":3lxuwigq said:

Often at times this question will get asked a lot as PC makes head-scratching decisions... but then I remember five simple perhaps cliche words of part of his football philosphy...

Separation Is In The Preperation

And as stupid as it was to continue trying to score a TD at the end of the first half or declining that penalty in the 4th... he allows his team to live or die in critical real game moments and puts it on his guys to win on the field... and what seems like failures is going to prepare them all better as they head into the Play-Offs. Where its do or die football.

Click to expand...

What was wrong with declining the penalty?

That was the right move imo.

Force their hand. Make them execute.

Click to expand...

Personally, I would have preferred to force Colin Kaepernick to pass on 3rd and 6 (and then perhaps 4th and 6). He's not very good at completing passing in those situations at the end of games. And it plays more to the strength of our defense.

Click to expand...

Perhaps.

But they were hitting alot of shallow crosses successfully in that down and distance all day.

Pete probably knew they would go. Hoping for a stop and ball back at midfield? Seems like decent odds.

Either way, I think its debatable, and certainly not a clear cut mistake as the OP implies

Hendo66":1nbqbn3x said:

Sounds good but I think they should have kicked the field goal. Flat out...

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I thought it was ironic that the announcers were saying the Niners needed to get points and it was the right thing to do.

THey seemed to fail to realize that they were giving up a sure 3 pts.

Would have rather accepted that penalty and forced Kaep into a likely passing situation. Declining the penalty has some additional value against over-conservative numbskulls like John Fox, Mike McCarthy, Andy Reid...basically anyone who Phil Simms would happily endorse. Those coaches may have found a way to actually punt in that spot, but you had to know that Harbaugh wouldn't. Functionally it seems like you actually have a chance to force him into a punt if you can perform on 3rd and 6 and hold them to a 4th and 5+.

Hawkpower":21bki7va said:

Pete probably knew they would go. Hoping for a stop and ball back at midfield? Seems like decent odds.

Click to expand...

4th and 1 gets converted at about a 2/3 rate. This was less than a full yard, so optimistically it's probably a 30/70 spot. Really not particularly decent odds...I was annoyed with Pete's decision here. Thankfully it was during the clock-burning part of the game and wasn't going to probably mean much either way.

Remember that a fourth down stop also gets us the ball at midfield. Them trying a 4th and 1 is on balance probably good for us if you factor in the difference in field position and the likelihood of converting that down and future downs. There's also the morale angle to look at like alluded to by PH: how fired up would the team have been by a 4th down stop? Pete is always looking at that sort of stuff, and if a 4th down stop puts the game away early then taking a chance at it is probably a good thing.

The decision not to kick a field goal on third down was a good one. 8 seconds is plenty of time to run a play but Wilson made a mistake. That doesn't mean the idea was bad and it's a learning experience for him.

MidwestHawker":36vzk7x3 said:

Hawkpower":36vzk7x3 said:

Pete probably knew they would go. Hoping for a stop and ball back at midfield? Seems like decent odds.

Click to expand...

4th and 1 gets converted at about a 2/3 rate. This was less than a full yard, so optimistically it's probably a 30/70 spot. Really not particularly decent odds...I was annoyed with Pete's decision here. Thankfully it was during the clock-burning part of the game and wasn't going to probably mean much either way.

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Not against this defense.

PC has more brain farts at times than just about every other HC in the game. Both not taking the FG at the end of the first half and not taking that penalty to move SF back letting them go for it on 4th and 1 was just plain stupid. I know he takes risks, but Good Lord.

kf3339":6mzq69ux said:

PC has more brain farts at times than just about every other HC in the game. Both not taking the FG at the end of the first half and not taking that penalty to move SF back letting them go for it on 4th and 1 was just plain stupid. I know he takes risks, but Good Lord.

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:34853_doh:

I think you need to observe more head coaches. Good lord indeed.

I agree with the OP. Kick the field goal at the end of the first half. The roughing penalty on Wilson created a touch down that otherwise would have been a field goal. If both fore mentioned situations resulted in a field goal, the final score would have been 16-7 verse 17-7. Still a comfortable late game margin.

It is a MMQB Mistake. You consider it a mistake just because the 49ers converted that 4th down. They were moving the ball on us ... I thought they would punt to get better field position.

They should have accepted that penalty.
SF had nothing to lose at that point, going for it on 4th and 1/2 yd.
Tough to stop 1/2 td gain.

As far as the field goal before half, the only problem I had was the int, throw it away.
Still had time to kick it on the next play w/3sec left.
It was only 3rd down on the int, wasn't it? Or did I lose track of downs.

It was my first game @ centurylink. Nice to get the win regardless of our MMQBing.

Pandion Haliaetus":2k1fl7dz said:

Often at times this question will get asked a lot as PC makes head-scratching decisions... but then I remember five simple perhaps cliche words of part of his football philosphy...

Separation Is In The Preperation

And as stupid as it was to continue trying to score a TD at the end of the first half or declining that penalty in the 4th... he allows his team to live or die in critical real game moments and puts it on his guys to win on the field... and what seems like failures is going to prepare them all better as they head into the Play-Offs. Where its do or die football.

Click to expand...

I don't have a problem declining the penalty and making it 4th and one. We didn't know that the Niners were going to go for it. There was enough time left and the Niners had all their timeouts, so one option for them could have been to punt on 4th and 1 and pin us deep in our own territory. I would have much rather given them one shot at 4th and one than two shots at 3rd and 6.

I DO have a problem with the end of the half passing up of a 46-47 yard FG with 8 seconds and no timeouts. Hauschka is money inside 50 and the weather wasn't a factor, and I really, really have a problem with the play selection/execution. There was no way we were going to score a TD on that pass. If he was going to take a shot, do so in the end zone. That was the worst decision Russell has made all year.

ivotuk":3irl8j3o said:

MidwestHawker":3irl8j3o said:

Hawkpower":3irl8j3o said:

Pete probably knew they would go. Hoping for a stop and ball back at midfield? Seems like decent odds.

Click to expand...

4th and 1 gets converted at about a 2/3 rate. This was less than a full yard, so optimistically it's probably a 30/70 spot. Really not particularly decent odds...I was annoyed with Pete's decision here. Thankfully it was during the clock-burning part of the game and wasn't going to probably mean much either way.

Click to expand...

Not against this defense.

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I considered that when making my post, and you're probably right, but I don't readily have stats on how we do in that situation and the sample size would be too small to be meaningful anyway. I also doubt that it's that much significantly less than 2/3 against us even though our defense is one of the toughest, or maybe the very toughest, to get it against. Off the top of my head from the last two weeks, it seems like SF converted it 2 of 3 times yesterday, and Philly was 1 for 1 the week prior. It's tough to stop a team from gaining anything at all on a play when their whole goal is to get just 1 yard.

I don't really have a problem with declining the penalty. It was a bit of a coin toss for me. There's no way SF would have punted there, so...it is what it is.

I do think they should have gone for the FG instead of the play. Running two plays in 8 seconds is next to impossible. The only down side is that on a long FG, the trajectory of the ball is lower and there's more chance of a block, and from there, a run back could have been in the cards. Still, I'd have trusted in Hausch.

Of course, maybe Hausch said he couldn't make it.

nepahawk":izbqq0yz said:

As far as the field goal before half, the only problem I had was the int, throw it away.
Still had time to kick it on the next play w/3sec left.
It was only 3rd down on the int, wasn't it? Or did I lose track of downs..

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As was confirmed later in the game, when the "pin your ears" pass rush is getting there on every down, even throwing the ball away is problematic. There are rules on throwing the ball away and RW gets dangerously close to breaking them quite often. Ask Chip Kelly. Kick the freakng field goal.