Russell Wilson - MVP Discussion

TXHawk · Dec 22, 2014

I was just watching ESPN with Ron Jaworski and Herm Edwards discussing who should be the league MVP and I was surprised to see Jaws pick Russell Wilson with Edwards pretty much agreeing with him. Jaworski's argument was that Wilson does a lot of things that don't show up in the stats to help his team win. He said he has catalogued every one of Wilson's plays this year and on "out of structure" plays (scrambles and passes or scrambles and runs) he averages about 9.5 yards per play. He said the OL is mediocre, the WRs are not great (very little separation) and there are games the Seahawks wouldn't have been in that they won because of Russell Wilson and his ability to make plays out of nothing. He also said that Wilson understands winning and does whatever is necessary to help his team win. Edward's agreed but also said that Wilson probably wouldn't win it because he's not a volume passer and doesn't put up the big fantasy passing numbers that the public and media look for.

Also this from Peter King in his MVP rankings:

4. Russell Wilson, QB, Seattle. Another quarterback making his debut in my top five. He ran and passed the Seahawks over Arizona on Sunday night in his usual Cool Hand Luke way. Now Seattle and New England are neck and neck for the best team in football. Wilson is the biggest reason for the Seahawks’ recent rise.

Nice to see Wilson in the discussion even though I agree he won't get it because he doesn't put up big fantasy passing numbers which is how QBs are judged by a lot of people these days.

SomersetHawk · Dec 22, 2014

Another repeat of this week, complete with sub-par performances from Rodgers and Luck and I could definitely see him making a late charge.

What's disappointing is that I actually believe he probably is as worthy of it as the aforementioned. There's no way this team is sitting in the #1 seed without him. I'd say the same about Rodgers and Luck, but all they've cemented their team's is a play-off spot and I don't like their chances of going all the way. Whereas the #1 seed is far more 'valuable' and gives us a much better chance of going to Arizona in February.

Sgt. Largent · Dec 22, 2014

Wilson has been just as important to his team's success this year as Rodgers, but Rodgers has all the shiny stats so he'll win.

If I had a vote I'd give it to Watt, dude is playing on another level than everyone else right now. Haven't seen a dominant defensive force like Watt since Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor.

DavidSeven · Dec 22, 2014

I'd be happy if that discussion didn't spread too widely for now. Every time Wilson gets a whiff of MVP chatter, he seems to go in the cellar for a bit. Happened after last year's Saint's game and after this year's Redskins game. Call me superstitious.

Evil_Shenanigans · Dec 22, 2014

He will always be the asterisk. He simply doesnt comply with most peoples metrics for what a QB ought to do. At least Jaworski is making an effort to factor in those intangibles.

MidwestHawker · Dec 22, 2014

Sgt. Largent":tlxpxtsr said:
Wilson has been just as important to his team's success this year as Rodgers, but Rodgers has all the shiny stats so he'll win.

If I had a vote I'd give it to Watt, dude is playing on another level than everyone else right now. Haven't seen a dominant defensive force like Watt since Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor.

MVP should never, ever, ever be anyone but a QB. Watt was incredible last year and the team still went 2-14, which says a lot about the relative value of his position; an elite QB having a great season never possibly finishes 2-14.

Watt could very well end up going down as the greatest defensive player in NFL history, and should still never get a single vote for MVP.

MidwestHawker · Dec 22, 2014

DavidSeven":1n4a8toy said:
I'd be happy if that discussion didn't spread too widely for now. Every time Wilson gets a whiff of MVP chatter, he seems to go in the cellar for a bit. Happened after last year's Saint's game and after this year's Redskins game. Call me superstitious.

I'm still waiting for that Madden Curse to jump up and cause Richard Sherman to have a terrible season.

dontbelikethat · Dec 22, 2014

MidwestHawker":3t7cbowz said:
DavidSeven":3t7cbowz said:

I'd be happy if that discussion didn't spread too widely for now. Every time Wilson gets a whiff of MVP chatter, he seems to go in the cellar for a bit. Happened after last year's Saint's game and after this year's Redskins game. Call me superstitious.

Click to expand...

I'm still waiting for that Madden Curse to jump up and cause Richard Sherman to have a terrible season.

Haha, I hope the first headline after the Superbowl is "Richard Sherman, and the Seattle Seahawks defeat the Madden Curse in Superbowl 49 blowout victory"

DavidSeven · Dec 22, 2014

MidwestHawker":3nkgd8v0 said:
DavidSeven":3nkgd8v0 said:

I'd be happy if that discussion didn't spread too widely for now. Every time Wilson gets a whiff of MVP chatter, he seems to go in the cellar for a bit. Happened after last year's Saint's game and after this year's Redskins game. Call me superstitious.

Click to expand...

I'm still waiting for that Madden Curse to jump up and cause Richard Sherman to have a terrible season.

Fair point, though I think these are two different things. Russ does have a historic penchant for rough patches. He seems to come up with his best ball when people start doubting him.

sc85sis · Dec 22, 2014

Wait, is this the same Jaws who insisted Russ was a "limited quarterback"?

Sgt. Largent · Dec 22, 2014

MidwestHawker":11iyyanx said:
Sgt. Largent":11iyyanx said:

Wilson has been just as important to his team's success this year as Rodgers, but Rodgers has all the shiny stats so he'll win.

If I had a vote I'd give it to Watt, dude is playing on another level than everyone else right now. Haven't seen a dominant defensive force like Watt since Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor.

Click to expand...

MVP should never, ever, ever be anyone but a QB. Watt was incredible last year and the team still went 2-14, which says a lot about the relative value of his position; an elite QB having a great season never possibly finishes 2-14.

Watt could very well end up going down as the greatest defensive player in NFL history, and should still never get a single vote for MVP.

Why? Running backs have won the MVP, Lawrence Taylor won it once.........heck a kicker even won it one year.

To me MVP means "most dominant player in the league" because it's impossible to quantify a player's importance on his own team vs another player's importance to his team.

Now I can certainly understand the argument that a player on a non playoff team shouldn't win it, so if you wanna go with that I can't argue...........cause in the end winning > all.

NorCalSeahawkFan · Dec 22, 2014

I have never cared what the media has to say.

Rw is our MVP and that is all that matters.

mikeak · Dec 22, 2014

MidwestHawker":3qrevdnr said:
Sgt. Largent":3qrevdnr said:

Wilson has been just as important to his team's success this year as Rodgers, but Rodgers has all the shiny stats so he'll win.

If I had a vote I'd give it to Watt, dude is playing on another level than everyone else right now. Haven't seen a dominant defensive force like Watt since Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor.

Click to expand...

MVP should never, ever, ever be anyone but a QB. Watt was incredible last year and the team still went 2-14, which says a lot about the relative value of his position; an elite QB having a great season never possibly finishes 2-14.

Watt could very well end up going down as the greatest defensive player in NFL history, and should still never get a single vote for MVP.

Houston Texas is a Watt away from being in the hunt for Mariotta

The price is named most valuable player. So you look at who is most valuable to their team and then compare them to each other.

To me you plug in an average player instead of the person who is up for the MVP. Where you feel that the team would have the most drop-off is where you pick your MVP player.

But you know that would be in case you wanted to follow the naming convention of the award..........

Rodgers probably gets the nod by me over RW. I just think that team isn't very good without him. I think Seattle is still a decent team - not a playoff team but decent. I would say the same thing for Luck and Indy (higher ranked as MVP than RW to me)

WilsonMVP · Dec 22, 2014

TXHawk":1zgzcthr said:
I was just watching ESPN with Ron Jaworski and Herm Edwards discussing who should be the league MVP and I was surprised to see Jaws pick Russell Wilson with Edwards pretty much agreeing with him. Jaworski's argument was that Wilson does a lot of things that don't show up in the stats to help his team win. He said he has catalogued every one of Wilson's plays this year and on "out of structure" plays (scrambles and passes or scrambles and runs) he averages about 9.5 yards per play. He said the OL is mediocre, the WRs are not great (very little separation) and there are games the Seahawks wouldn't have been in that they won because of Russell Wilson and his ability to make plays out of nothing. He also said that Wilson understands winning and does whatever is necessary to help his team win. Edward's agreed but also said that Wilson probably wouldn't win it because he's not a volume passer and doesn't put up the big fantasy passing numbers that the public and media look for.

Also this from Peter King in his MVP rankings:

4. Russell Wilson, QB, Seattle. Another quarterback making his debut in my top five. He ran and passed the Seahawks over Arizona on Sunday night in his usual Cool Hand Luke way. Now Seattle and New England are neck and neck for the best team in football. Wilson is the biggest reason for the Seahawks’ recent rise.

Click to expand...

Nice to see Wilson in the discussion even though I agree he won't get it because he doesn't put up big fantasy passing numbers which is how QBs are judged by a lot of people these days.

If he somehow runs for like 150+ yards next week and becomes a ..what...3500 passing 1000 rushing QB I think he has a great shot for MVP IMO

As it stands now I think Brady or Rodgers have the beat on MVP...Watt maybe the only other player I could see winning it.

MidwestHawker · Dec 22, 2014

Sgt. Largent":2klmvv4d said:
MidwestHawker":2klmvv4d said:

Sgt. Largent":2klmvv4d said:

Wilson has been just as important to his team's success this year as Rodgers, but Rodgers has all the shiny stats so he'll win.

If I had a vote I'd give it to Watt, dude is playing on another level than everyone else right now. Haven't seen a dominant defensive force like Watt since Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor.

Click to expand...

MVP should never, ever, ever be anyone but a QB. Watt was incredible last year and the team still went 2-14, which says a lot about the relative value of his position; an elite QB having a great season never possibly finishes 2-14.

Watt could very well end up going down as the greatest defensive player in NFL history, and should still never get a single vote for MVP.

Click to expand...

Why? Running backs have won the MVP, Lawrence Taylor won it once.........heck a kicker even won it one year.

To me MVP means "most dominant player in the league" because it's impossible to quantify a player's importance on his own team vs another player's importance to his team.

Now I can certainly understand the argument that a player on a non playoff team shouldn't win it, so if you wanna go with that I can't argue...........cause in the end winning > all.

I realize that other positions do win it, but it's always an error when they do.

It also is not really impossible to quantify a player's importance on his own team...the betting market reveals a lot in this regard. Aaron Rodgers goes down last season, betting lines shifted roughly seven points away from the Packers. You would never, ever see that with a defender going down.

Using a value-over-replacement at the player's position simply doesn't work, because QB is just so far and away the most valuable position and none of the rest of them can touch the QB position. It's unlike any split of its kind in other sports.

MidwestHawker · Dec 22, 2014

mikeak":20nir411 said:
Houston Texas is a Watt away from being in the hunt for Mariotta

You seriously think that he's worth 6+ wins more than he was last year? I think that's borderline impossible, since he was already awesome last year.

mikeak · Dec 22, 2014

MidwestHawker":h5mpfbuc said:
mikeak":h5mpfbuc said:

Houston Texas is a Watt away from being in the hunt for Mariotta

Click to expand...

You seriously think that he's worth 6+ wins more than he was last year? I think that's borderline impossible, since he was already awesome last year.

Confused - how does last year's performance impact this years? They had better qb play last year and they started off as a really good team up until about 3 quarters of the Seahawks game.

They are worse on the qb side this year and yeah I think they are winning games solely based on what he does and what he does to the other players on that defense. Go look at Flacco's qb rating yesterday. That starts with Watt

theincrediblesok · Dec 22, 2014

Rodgers got better talented offensive players on his side. Look what happened when Matt Flynn played 5 games for him and they made the playoffs only for Rodgers to get healthy and lose in the playoffs. Matt Flynn took that team 2-2-1 with 7TD and 4INT in those games. Rodgers is good but they had a guy that knew the system enough to win games. They develop great WR's over there.

PackerBacker19 · Dec 22, 2014

Sgt. Largent":3al6y6us said:
[b]Wilson has been just as important to his team's success this year as Rodgers, but Rodgers has all the shiny stats so he'll win.[/b]

If I had a vote I'd give it to Watt, dude is playing on another level than everyone else right now. Haven't seen a dominant defensive force like Watt since Reggie White and Lawrence Taylor.

I must respectfully disagree. Rodgers carries the Packers. The Seahawks have a great D and running game, while the Packers have struggled at times with both. Take Wilson off a team that has averaged allowing 6.6 points their last 5 games and the Seahawks could still win. Take Rodgers off the Packers and they are mediocre. Also, I'm not sure if there are people here thinking Rodgers was sub-par yesterday, but he went about 30 completions out of 40 attempts with a touchdown. He did this on a strained calf that was clearly limiting his mobility so I wouldn't say his performance was sub-par. Please Note: I am not by any means questioning Wilson's importance. He has been great this year. I just think Rodgers is worth more because of the talent or lack of talent around him.

TXHawk · Dec 22, 2014

Here's the link to the video I was talking about. It starts out with JJ Watt and then turns into a discussion about Russell Wilson as MVP:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=120668 ... id=2378529

Russell Wilson - MVP Discussion

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