Penalty disparity between Seahawks, opponents grows larger

http://mynorthwest.com/292/2675974/Pena ... ows-larger

That was the word that coach Pete Carroll used to describe the penalty discrepancy in Sunday's game between the Seahawks and the Cardinals.

"I think it was 11-1 tonight," Carroll said. "Amazing."

Well, it's something, that's for sure. It certainly was not a coincidence. Throughout the course of this season, two things have becoming strikingly evident: Seattle's predilection for committing penalties and the lack of offenses flagged on the other team.

The first of those two is more understandable than the second. After all, Seattle was penalized more often than any other team last season. In fact, the Seahawks have ranked among the top six in each of the previous three seasons.

So when Carroll was asked about his team's frequency of flags after the Thanksgiving game at San Francisco, he didn't brush it off, but he didn't diminish the fact, either.

"We're playing really hard and really aggressive," Carroll said. "It's kind of like last year. We were pretty good at leading last year, too, in penalties. You have to be first in something, you know? So that's what it is."

It's the second part of the equation that's more puzzling, the fact that Seattle's opponents are penalized less frequently than anyone else in the league.

The Seahawks' opponents have been penalized 64 times this season, which isn't just fewest in the league, but fewest by 22 penalties. That's right. Seattle's opponents have been penalized 25 percent less often than any other team's opponents this season.

It's that disparity Carroll pointed to most prominently back on Thanksgiving after the 19-3 victory over San Francisco in which the Seahawks were called for 14 penalties, the 49ers for three.

"The only thing, I wish they'd call some more penalties on the other guys," Carroll said. "We've got our own problems on one side. I just wish they'd call them on the other guys. The cavern grows. Broader."

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I know the tally differential has continued to grow, but not all calls are created equal, and there were some calls (and non-calls) that really helped Seattle in the Eagles and 49ers games, including the roughing the passer penalty heard round the world.

Remember when it felt like EVERY big play by Seattle was called back by penalty? That has very much not been the case over the past month. So while Seattle is getting called for stuff, it seems like officials swallow their whistles on Seattle's big plays as of late. And that makes a HUGE difference.

One of the most vivid memories from the Cardinals win last weekend was Luke Willson's 80 yard TD that essentially won the game for Seattle. The broadcast cuts to some 60 year old Hawks fan in the crowd. Rather than being euphoric, he has a look of cautious excitement while grabbing his wrist and tugging, and you can see the guy mouthing the words "no flags! no flags!"

At home, I was doing the same thing. I think just about every Hawks fan was. And lately, those backbreaking penalties have almost disappeared completely. Instead, they are replaced by an avalanche of annoying, but mostly harmless ones.

And I don't think that's 100% a coincidence either.

Pete is working the refs the same way any basketball coach would. It's not obvious in the raw numbers, but you can kinda sense an impact since Pete first brought this up a month ago.

Yes, they could have thrown a bogus "block in the back" on Lockette on the sidelines of Beastquake II.
I'm sure it would have been counter to the letter of the rule, but that's never stopped the refs before.
Maybe someone knows what the interpretation is, e.g., if the ballcarrier and blocker are running the same direction and the blocker is clearing a path? The block-in-the-back penalties usually seem to involve the blocker and ballcarrier not going in the same direction.

Besides, it would have been stupid to flag the play and ruin an obvious SportsCenter highlight, plus the game was already long-decided.

Keep the tab running, maybe if it gets to the lame stream NFL mediots it will get traction and make a difference. It's hard to blame the officiating when the Hawks have so many clear cut, pre snap penalties though. It's almost like the officials are told to only call X amount of penalties in a game and the Hawks make so many clear cut pre snap penalties the officials are hamstrung. False starts on O, lining up offsides on D...That is basic football.....Stupid penalties.

kearly":1i1n3wha said:

I know the tally differential has continued to grow, but not all calls are created equal, and there were some calls (and non-calls) that really helped Seattle in the Eagles and 49ers games, including the roughing the passer penalty heard round the world.

Remember when it felt like EVERY big play by Seattle was called back by penalty? That has very much not been the case over the past month. So while Seattle is getting called for stuff, it seems like officials swallow their whistles on Seattle's big plays as of late. And that makes a HUGE difference.

One of the most vivid memories from the Cardinals win last weekend was Luke Willson's 80 yard TD that essentially won the game for Seattle. The broadcast cuts to some 60 year old Hawks fan in the crowd. Rather than being euphoric, he has a look of cautious excitement while grabbing his wrist and tugging, and you can see the guy mouthing the words "no flags! no flags!"

At home, I was doing the same thing. I think just about every Hawks fan was. And lately, those backbreaking penalties have almost disappeared completely. Instead, they are replaced by an avalanche of annoying, but mostly harmless ones.

And I don't think that's 100% a coincidence either.

Pete is working the refs the same way any basketball coach would. It's not obvious in the raw numbers, but you can kinda sense an impact since Pete first brought this up a month ago.

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To the point of referees swallowing their whistles on big Seattle plays, I think it has less to do with big plays and more to do with a particular period of time.

That is to say, the officials were bracing Seattle all season long, and then the story about the disparity starts to get out, and for the next two games (Philly & SF) we enjoy a couple of important no-calls (or even bad calls). The ones that come to mind are the DPI involving Baldwin and the lineman-downfield no-call @ Philly, and of course the roughing the QB call vs. SF that got us a TD instead of a FG. To me, the officials were clearly reacting to the fact that all eyes were now on them, and watching for any missteps. Unfortunately, once the roughing the QB call was roundly criticized by pundits, they jerked the wheel back in the other direction and absolutely crushed Seattle w/ penalties while ignoring the other team entirely.

If we want this season to end in as much success as last year, I think it is extremely important for Pete & Gang to continue making this a big story. Officials respond to this kind of stuff, as evidenced by the Philly & SF games, and later the AZ game. Just like with opposing coaches asking the officials to watch defensive holding in the secondary, we can just stew about it quietly and continue to have lopsided games like this, or hold the officials publicly accountable by making this a story every freaking week. I'd rather be polishing our 2nd SB ring while listening to haters chalk it up to bad calls, than being the people yelling about officiating after some officiating controversy (think Baldwin DPI no-call @ KC) knocks us out of the playoffs. 20 years from now, all anybody will remember are who has the rings, not how they got them.

kearly":1o38l2j9 said:

One of the most vivid memories from the Cardinals win last weekend was Luke Willson's 80 yard TD that essentially won the game for Seattle. The broadcast cuts to some 60 year old Hawks fan in the crowd. Rather than being euphoric, he has a look of cautious excitement while grabbing his wrist and tugging, and you can see the guy mouthing the words "no flags! no flags!"

At home, I was doing the same thing. I think just about every Hawks fan was. And lately, those backbreaking penalties have almost disappeared completely. Instead, they are replaced by an avalanche of annoying, but mostly harmless ones.

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100% this. lol it was so funny my wife and I were yelling the same thing - "No flag! No flag!". And then saw that guy saying the same thing on TV. Yep...you could hear it coming from all Seahawk fans worldwide. It's a bit sad it has come to that.

jacobsod":iu7atyfp said:

kearly":iu7atyfp said:

One of the most vivid memories from the Cardinals win last weekend was Luke Willson's 80 yard TD that essentially won the game for Seattle. The broadcast cuts to some 60 year old Hawks fan in the crowd. Rather than being euphoric, he has a look of cautious excitement while grabbing his wrist and tugging, and you can see the guy mouthing the words "no flags! no flags!"

At home, I was doing the same thing. I think just about every Hawks fan was. And lately, those backbreaking penalties have almost disappeared completely. Instead, they are replaced by an avalanche of annoying, but mostly harmless ones.

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100% this. lol it was so funny my wife and I were yelling the same thing - "No flag! No flag!". And then saw that guy saying the same thing on TV. Yep...you could hear it coming from all Seahawk fans worldwide. It's a bit sad it has come to that.

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I totally expected the penalty graphic to pop up on the screen on that play and was saying the same thing as you all.

I look at this a couple of different ways. I understand the disparity and we don't have to rehash that. We were called for what, 7 presnap penalties last game ? So that's 4 penalties that can actually be called with any sort of interpretation on us. That's not exactly horrible.

Our opponents get away with a lot. If I could just get one thing from the NFL on tihs matter, it would be the Offensive Line calls for the other team. It's also the one thing that really gets me thinking some of this is intentional. There is one official that is situation behind the QB. He's specifically there to call OL/DL penalties and protect the QB. I've counted no less than 9 penalties this year, that were competely eggregious (and stupidly obvious) commited against Irvin alone. We're talking not just holds, but literally tackles, clipping from behind, hands to the face, and one obvious face mask.

These aren't small penalties; most of them are drive killers. So that's 9 drives potentiall killed (at least) just perpetrated against one guy. I'm not talking about holding inside by a Guard that sneaks a hand inside the DT and slows him down on the way by, this is stuff isolated on the edge, out of the line scrum. How else are we supposed to think but that it's intentional no calls ?

As for the actual disparity, the other half of it is us. If we could just cut out the stupid pre snap stuff. First off, we're getting multiple pre snap penalties at home, which is unforgivable. Part of HFA is not getting this stuff like you do on the road. If we could cut out the dumb stuff, it would not only help us in the game, but would narrow that disparity a bit.

Like Kearly mentioned, I've noticed we've benefitted from some no calls after this came to the public's eye. We've also had a lot less big plays called back. That helps, but we still need that dominant pass rush for the playoffs, and allowing so much blatant holding on the opposition's part is a lot of what is slowing us down.

When you're at a restaurant, who do you notice more -- the timid geeks texting to each other at the table to your right, or the boisterous and snarling carnivores aggressively tearing into their medium-rare game at the table to your left? In most games, the opponent tends to be the timid geeks and the Seahawks tend to be the aggressive carnivores. It is difficult for the referees to maintain proper awareness of everything the geeks are doing in the presence of the carnivores.

The human brain tends to zero in on the individual or group that exudes confidence and/or aggressiveness -- and it does so at the expense of being less aware of the actions of secondary players. I believe this partly explains why Seattle gets flags in multiples of that of their opponent. The Hawks' commanding presence on the field not only makes their offenses more noticeable, it also often allows the timid geek to get away with decapitation of our QB and other things that should be penalized.

Not to say this is the only factor contributing to the lopsided flag tally. Another is the Hawks' speed. When something or someone exhibits aggressive speed, the human brain naturally goes eagle-eye on it, watching for anything unacceptable and ready to react immediately. Not only is the referee at a heightened (and frowning) state of alert due to sheer speed of the play, the play often happens too fast to fully and accurately comprehend immediately as referees are tasked to do. Consequently, the ref often errs on the presumption that a rule was probably violated, and out comes the flag. (The perfectly legal Chancellor Mack-truck hit on Davis in 2012 drew the flag quite instantaneously, for example.) The opponent's slower speed of playing football, on the other hand, draws far fewer flags.

Yes, Seahawk players have made their share of boneheaded mistakes. And yes, the Seahawks sometimes benefit when the other team gets flagged when they shouldn't have. But over the course of the season, I think the above factors are among the primary contributors to the lopsided flag count.

Mountain out of a molehill. I totally agree with cleaning up false starts and illegal formations. And illegal motion. Those are just loss of focus penalties. But, most of our penalties are of the aggressive kind. Attempting to guess the snap and drawing offsides or neutral zone infractions. Hell, even if it gives away a first down, a Db or Lb is better off drawing illegal contact or holding than a 35 yard PI.

Even with the total disparity, we are 11-4 and playing better football than anyone else. Keep on keeping on.

I still feel like this topic never gets the correct discussion going. It still ends up about our penalties even when people try to mention the other team.

This conversation needs to happen in a vacuum. It should not mention or relate to the Seahawks penalties. Its entirely about the opponents penalties (or lack thereof) and the crazy discrepancy of their seasonal average compared to when they play us.

I get some people understand this, but reading though this thread, the major topic is still about our penalties. We know we have a lot of penalties. We know we deserve a lot of those penalties. The issue, has nothing to do with our penalties. Constantly prefacing every topic about his with our penalties, denigrates the original idea.

Its hard to get people outside the teams fans to take notice, when there is still a real confusion about the premises. We should talk about this, but without inferring about our own penalties. Since their relation is moot.

It's a weird phenomenon. The same thing was happening to Carroll's teams every year when he was at SC . . . his opponents were consistently drawing the fewest penalties in the Pac-10 from 2004 to 2007. He pointed this out in 2008 after a 10-1 disparity in a game against Arizona . . . SC ended up finishing 2nd in the conference that year in fewest opponent penalties, so there was a slight improvement after Carroll pointed it out.
http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.co ... c-10-refs/

It can only point to two things:
(1) Our opponents are playing their absolute best games against us because we have a bullseye on our backs for being "The Champs." They are so focused on beating us that their penalties radically decline from their usual outputs.

(2) The referees are consciously or subconsciously "levelling the playing field" by calling fewer penalties on our opponents. The first can only be a partial explanation because they have certainly missed some holding calls on Bennett and Avril for example.

Irvin gets held...ALOT. Really, really bad holds too.

pehawk":l70mnnrb said:

Irvin gets held...ALOT. Really, really bad holds too.

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Maybe he needs to scream "HOLDING" like all the niner defensive linemen do when they play.

irocdave":3hj094n9 said:

Keep the tab running, maybe if it gets to the lame stream NFL mediots it will get traction and make a difference. It's hard to blame the officiating when the Hawks have so many clear cut, pre snap penalties though. It's almost like the officials are told to only call X amount of penalties in a game and the Hawks make so many clear cut pre snap penalties the officials are hamstrung. False starts on O, lining up offsides on D...That is basic football.....Stupid penalties.

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This...my issue is never penalties AGAINST us...most of the time it is a legit penalty, but sometimes not just like every other team...my issue is the opponents LACK of calls when there is clear holding or PI or what have you.

irocdave":ctdkl3bs said:

Keep the tab running, maybe if it gets to the lame stream NFL mediots it will get traction and make a difference. It's hard to blame the officiating when the Hawks have so many clear cut, pre snap penalties though. It's almost like the officials are told to only call X amount of penalties in a game and the Hawks make so many clear cut pre snap penalties the officials are hamstrung. False starts on O, lining up offsides on D...That is basic football.....Stupid penalties.

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Maybe that's what we should look at. The type of penalties. False starts and lining up offsides on defense vs. the ones
that can be arbitrarily called ie : interference etc.

Then how do the numbers look?