Question about rules (Seahawks related)

sekiuHAWK

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In the last few weeks of our season I noticed that our players were jumping offside quite a bit on defense (though I think this has been happening all season). On most of these occasions I noticed that the center abruptly snapped his head up before hiking the ball, thus drawing our players offside. To me, this has been quite frustrating as my understanding of the rule has been that the offensive linemen can't move. Well, I did some digging (about 5 minutes on google) and found the following page:

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/positionofplayers

The rules seem pretty clear that the center can't jerk his head (or any part of his body) around to trick the defense to jump offside. Am I missing something?

The reason why I am asking is because I am watching the super bowl on my TV for the first time (went to the game and just couldn't force myself to re-watch it until now) and with 49 seconds left in the first half, Avril got a call against him. I noticed that this happened several times when we played the Packers (Bennett was the culpable party on most occasions I believe). Any clarification or knowledge on this matter would be appreciated. I don't want to make any assumptions either way, just want to educate myself so that I can be pissed off at the right party (whether it is the refs or our players).

Thanks in advance.
 

hawknation2015

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This is one of those finicky rules that is never enforced. I believe the rules also prevent the center from moving the football before the snap, but you sometimes see centers get away with this with the obvious intent of instigating an encroachment call.

I would compare it to the Patriots' rushing to the line of scrimmage to snap the ball after a substitution. The rules say a team should be warned of a penalty for such behavior, but I doubt that ever happens.
 
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sekiuHAWK

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Just got to the end of the game and the same thing happens at the end of the game too with Bennett. My issue is that the NFL claims to want to eliminate interpretation calls. If a center is moving his head up and down multiple times (like at the end of the game), its pretty freaking obvious that he is trying to draw the other team offsides... This was huge too. I told the guy behind me at the game that it wasn't over... that the Pats needed to get the ball out of the endzone. If there was a safety we could have kicked a FG with approximately 30 seconds to go... anyway, sorry for beating a dead horse but this rule should be looked at by the NFL IMO... unless I am missing something that is... and this is why I waited almost a month to watch the game again...
 

bigtrain21

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I was really mad about that double headbob by the center at the end of the game. A safety there would have given us a chance.

It got called on Unger in the Redskin game even though he barely moved his helmet (if at all) and cost us a Harvin TD.
 

Popeyejones

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The penalty is called consistently: it's never called.

Opportunistically wanting it to be called simply because it's in the rulebook is the equivalent of 9ers fans who wanted excessive crowd noise to be called against the Hawks at the Clink because that's also in the rulebook.
 

bigtrain21

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Popeyejones":2vp93nm2 said:
The penalty is called consistently: it's never called.

Opportunistically wanting it to be called simply because it's in the rulebook is the equivalent of 9ers fans who wanted excessive crowd noise to be called against the Hawks at the Clink because that's also in the rulebook.

Except it does get called. It was called on Unger during the Redskins game. Centers don't do it all that often because it does get called.
 

VivaEfrenHerrera

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Popeyejones":3rrcu1il said:
The penalty is called consistently: it's never called....
Hehe. One of those times when flat, declarative sentences simply do not serve. Jeezus. Coulda just said "rarely called" and been right, but then wouldn't have been able to take the ensuing shot.
 

Popeyejones

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VivaEfrenHerrera":37w56v6o said:
Popeyejones":37w56v6o said:
The penalty is called consistently: it's never called....
Hehe. One of those times when flat, declarative sentences simply do not serve. Jeezus. Coulda just said "rarely called" and been right, but then wouldn't have been able to take the ensuing shot.


Take a shot at whom? Stupid 9ers fans?

And forgot about it being called on Unger that time. Everyone was right of course about how bad that call was. ;)
 

RichNhansom

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Pretty sure the crowd noise rule has been removed from the rules also. If it hasn't been removed it is a technicality as the entire league and fans know it is not enforceable as we witnessed back in the king dome when they tried.

It is a legitimate question because it does get called as does the off sides sometimes caused by it. The reason it often doesn't get called though is because it is usually part of the snap process but when the center snaps his head and doesn't immediately snap the ball it should be called. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows the purpose of snapping his head up and then not snapping the ball. It's obvious.

This isn't the same as 9er fans complaining about Brooks hitting Brees. That is a call in today's NFL that gets called 100% of the time as it should.
 

SeahawksBMX

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bigtrain21":vqru221k said:
Popeyejones":vqru221k said:
The penalty is called consistently: it's never called.

Opportunistically wanting it to be called simply because it's in the rulebook is the equivalent of 9ers fans who wanted excessive crowd noise to be called against the Hawks at the Clink because that's also in the rulebook.

Except it does get called. It was called on Unger during the Redskins game. Centers don't do it all that often because it does get called.

I'd love to see a side-by-side of the two, but I couldn't even find a gif of Bennett's encroachment (I know I came across one recently; maybe in here?).

Just to torture myself more, I was reading a thread on Reddit about the encroachment play this morning.
After the interception, I was too numb to even have an emotional reaction, but I lost it after Bennett jumped/was pushed. F Bombs flew. Speaking of that, there are plenty of those in the linked Reddit thread.
 

Seahawkfan80

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If I recall correctly, the front line (of course that dont include a man in motion or that goes in motion) must be immobile for one second. Therefore if my recollection is correct, the head bobbing should stop for at least one second. That could be in the rules as at least one second and could be a timed event. I did notice that RW was doing the kick for the ball a few times and when the play clock got down to 2.....he kinda demanded the ball with the kick maneuver. I think it was more like...." Hey hiker of the ball, could you please let me have the ball before the clock hits 0? Pretty please??" I could be wrong on the pretty please..... :twisted: :stirthepot:
 
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sekiuHAWK

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Seahawkfan80":zvlfj7v9 said:
If I recall correctly, the front line (of course that dont include a man in motion or that goes in motion) must be immobile for one second. Therefore if my recollection is correct, the head bobbing should stop for at least one second. That could be in the rules as at least one second and could be a timed event. I did notice that RW was doing the kick for the ball a few times and when the play clock got down to 2.....he kinda demanded the ball with the kick maneuver. I think it was more like...." Hey hiker of the ball, could you please let me have the ball before the clock hits 0? Pretty please??" I could be wrong on the pretty please..... :twisted: :stirthepot:


Here are the rules from the link I posted in the first post:

Offensive team must have at least seven players on line.
Offensive players, not on line, must be at least one yard back at snap.

(Exception: player who takes snap.)
No interior lineman may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.
No player of either team may enter neutral zone before snap.
No player of offensive team may charge or move abruptly, after assuming set position, in such manner as to lead defense to believe snap has started. No player of the defensive team within one yard of the line of scrimmage may make an abrupt movement in an attempt to cause the offense to false start.
If a player changes his eligibility, the Referee must alert the defensive captain after player has reported to him.
All players of offensive team must be stationary at snap, except one back who may be in motion parallel to scrimmage line or backward (not forward).
After a shift or huddle all players on offensive team must come to an absolute stop for at least one second with no movement of hands, feet, head, or swaying of body.
Quarterbacks can be called for a false start penalty (five yards) if their actions are judged to be an obvious attempt to draw an opponent offside.
Offensive linemen are permitted to interlock legs.


With this said I have a few things...

First, according to the rules above, all players on the offensive team must come to a complete stop for one second following a huddle or shift.

Second, no interior linemen may move abruptly after taking or simulating a three-point stance.

Third, no player should move abruptly after assuming a set position in such a manner as to lead defense to believe a snap has started.

Forth, quarterbacks can be called for a false start penalty if their actions are judged to be an obvious attempt to draw an opponent offside.

With these four items I believe that:

1. The center or any other OL should not be able to move his head to draw the other team offside
2. The QB should not be able to draw the other team offside with any movement or other action.

Back to my original two posts... I believe that these rules leave too much room for interpretation. For example, the word 'judged' is used while referring to QBs and their 'actions'. There is a ton of room for interpretation here. The word 'Judged' implies that somebody has to make a decision based on the facts given to them but judging intent is very difficult to do. Also, the word 'actions' can mean a lot of different things. I have not dug further but actions may be defined in a different place in the rules. We were drawn off once in the Packer game by Rodgers and the snap count. I would consider yelling an action in everyday vocabulary.

I am not complaining about the refereeing in the game as this has been pretty consistently not called throughout the season but what I am trying to point out is that this does have an effect on the game. If I were D-Lineman coach, I would coach my players down to each letter in the rules. Taking on the rules I posted above into account, Michael Bennett would be correct to jump once the center moved his head. Michael Bennett is just following the rules. Now imagine being a player such as Michael Bennett. Michael Bennett can read the rules and play according to the rules. When a rule basically says no 'abrupt movement' and you see abrupt movement down the line, you are going to go as soon as you can to gain that advantage. Because of these things, I think the rule should be changed. I don't care if the rule indicates that the center can bob his head or if there can be no movement, but what I would like to see is a rule that takes interpretation away from the judgment. Bennett would have to change how he played with the rule change but at least he would know what to look for... because as I said, Bennett is playing the rule perfectly as is right now and getting bad calls against him quite often.

The QBs rule is the same in my opinion. It should be re-written so that interpretation is eliminated from the equation.

Lastly, I am naïve about the crowd noise rule. However, lets pretend that the rule still exists. I think that it should be enforced how the rule is written. If the rule can't be enforced it should be eliminated or re-written. This rule in particular is just plain silly in my opinion. The crowd, in most sports is a part of the game and I believe it should be. It is the fan that pays for the game to exist for goodness sakes...

My main point on this thread was to bring up a major problem that exists in the NFL. The NFL and its talking heads (see Dean Blandino and his predecessor) talk about writing rules to eliminate interpretation. I believe that this is and would be a good thing. However, actions speak louder than words. The NFL does not do what they say they want to do and continues to let things like this slide. This is unfair to the players but more importantly to the fans. It is hard to claim that the best team wins games when the rules are not consistent or not enforced. Enforcement is a huge part here. We often talk about consistency but rarely about enforcement. If players play by the rules and some players don't play by the rules, the players that don't play by the rules have a possible advantage if the rules that are being broken are not enforced. Here is a hypothetical.... lets pretend there is a car race but all cars must stop at stop signs. Now lets say everybody has a rule book and know about this rule of stopping at stop signs. Half of the drivers read the rule and intend on following it. The other half either didn't read the rule book, just don't give a damn, or are curious if the rule will even be called because it seems crazy that drivers should have to stop at stop signs during a race (sound familiar.... kind of like the Patriots). During the race, approximately half of the drivers will stop at stop signs and the others will not. Now lets say that during the race that nobody was called out for not stopping at the stop sign. This just gave half of the drivers an advantage.

So in a very long winded way I would love to see three things from the NFL while talking about rules... consistency, enforcement, and rules that eliminate interpretation. With these things, I believe our coaching staff would do extremely well and our players would shine (see some of Pete's Press Conferences where he talks about rules)...
 

HawkFan72

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This is one of those rules that I think Pete Carroll complained about when he said things get called against the Seahawks that don't get called against other teams.

As mentioned above, Unger was called for this penalty (on a huge TD play no less), but I don't recall it ever being called against the Seahawks' opponents this year despite some obvious violations.
 

chris98251

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You can talk about rules, but the NFL wants the pace of the games to be flowing if at all possible, that means areas where judgment of did he cross early, did he line up in the neutral zone or right on the edge, did he finger twitch the ball and try to draw someone off are called inconsistently.

Think of it this way, if your driving and it is an absolute your 1 mile over the speed limit, they give you a ticket, also if your 5 miles under the speed limit by law they give you a ticket if you are impeding the ability of traffic behind you from going the speed limit.

There are not enough traffic cops to enforce every tiny infraction, not to mention the amount of people that would get arrested for warrants and needing tow trucks and transport to get them into jails that are overcrowded as it is.

Practicality and being able to use the law or rules to govern but not make the game one that would never have any flow. Just like holding, every play could be flagged.

The biggest problem I see is when they decide to enforce a rule, it seems that it happens on big plays not loss of yards or incompletions. Or seemingly to tighten a game up that appears to be heading to a blow out and or to a team that's a visitor in a more established or popular teams field.
 

bigtrain21

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chris98251":267rkfrv said:
Practicality and being able to use the law or rules to govern but not make the game one that would never have any flow. Just like holding, every play could be flagged.

In the plays we are referring to the flow of play is already interrupted because they stop play to call it on the defense instead of the offense like we think it should be. These are blatantly obvious ones too, not like the phantom Unger call. Blatantly obvious ones don't occur as often as you guys seem to think they do.

If the NFL worried about the flow of games they wouldn't let offensive lineman get away with pointing at the defensive lineman who jumps and pretending like they were caused to jump by the defensive lineman when they clearly know the snap count and know that the ball was not about to be snapped.
 

Seahawkfan80

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Thank you Sekiuhawk, I thought that they were posted. The qb can not make any outward movements and I think that is what they called in some of the games. Peypey did that in some of his games 2 years ago and got penalized. The hard count is something that the crowd noise should be able to defeat....which ticks off qbs...darn. I also, as is said here, would like to get the Interpretation or SUBJECTIVE calls out of the system. But you cant have everything you want. Just most things.
Go hawks.
 

hawknation2014

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Popeyejones":3e7he5d3 said:
The penalty is called consistently: it's never called.

Opportunistically wanting it to be called simply because it's in the rulebook is the equivalent of 9ers fans who wanted excessive crowd noise to be called against the Hawks at the Clink because that's also in the rulebook.

That rule was eliminated EIGHT YEARS AGO.

New rules for 2007
NFL.com

Crowd noise: The five-yard penalty against the defense for excessive crowd noise has been eliminated. The penalty
had not been called in many years.

http://www.nfl.com/kickoff/story/09000d ... s-for-2007

Imagine that . . . a 49er fan stuck in the past.
 

Year of The Hawk

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That play pissed me off as well. In that situation that is something the officials should be looking for. The Pats had basically nothing to lose with a penalty there so I can't blame them for trying. It even worked. In the end one play does not determine a game. It a collection of plays and the team who makes the most plays wins. It is like saying the last vote won me the election. Like the other votes before the last one didn't count. It still sucks but we did not do enough to win. Simple. I feel we did really well considering how banged up we were and two key players lost during game. I think next year we will have a massive chip and we all know how well we play with that chip:)
 

Sgt. Largent

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Don't worry, Eisen's about to run a 12.3 40 and ruin the coolness of gold cleats forever.

B jHtMmCcAADmMI
 

acbass

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I've never brought this up, but I think this played a HUGE factor in the SB. After the Butler INT the Patriots had the ball on like the one yard line. They lined up in victory formation, but if Brady takes a knee i don't see how it's not a safety. Hawks get with a FG and get the ball back. Before the play was ever ran we got flagged for offsides. If you watch the play the NE center shakes his head violently to draw us offsides. It works and the rest is history. I was extremely angry about that. It needs to be called more. If the refs call it who knows what happens in the last 25 seconds
 
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