2015 Depth Challenges?

farhat · Mar 14, 2015

What we learned from 2014 is that depth is really important. We lost Mebane, Hill, Marsh, Avril, and Lane, and didn't have good enough backups to keep up our defensive dominance. When we use up cap room on guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham, are we not addressing our offensive line and defensive depth? (Players in red below are players that I believe are not reliable backups.)

Offense

Quarterback: Russell Wilson, BJ Daniels
Running Back: Marshawn Lynch, Robert Turbin, Christine Michael
Fullback: Derrick Coleman, Mike Zimmer
WR: Chris Matthews, Kevin Norwood
Slot WR: Doug Baldwin, Paul Richardson
Tight End: Jimmy Graham, Luke Wilson
Left Tackle: Russell Okung
Left Guard: Alvin Bailey, CJ Davis
Center: Patrick Lewis, Jared Wheeler
Right Guard: JR Sweezy, Drew Nowak
Right Tackle: Justin Britt, Garry Gilliam
WR2: Jermaine Kearse, Ricardo Lockette

Defense

Defensive End: Cliff Avril, Cassius Marsh
Defensive Tackle: Brandon Mebane, Landon Cohen
Defensive Tackle: Tony McDaniel, Jordan Hill
Defensive End: Michael Bennett, Greg Scruggs
Outside Linebacker: Bruce Irvin, Mike Morgan
Middle Linebacker: Bobby Wagner, Brock Coyle
Outside Linebacker: KJ Wright, Kevin Pierre Louis
Cornerback: Cary Williams, Tharold Simon
Slot Cornerback: Jeremy Lane, Marcus Burley
Strong Safety: Kam Chancellor, Eric Pinkins
Free Safety: Earl Thomas, Steven Terrell
Cornerback: Richard Sherman, Will Blackmon

BlueBlood · Mar 14, 2015

We will have some new guys in and some old ones out but I have complete faith that JS and PC will make sure that they have talent in the back up positions. Theyll save a few bucks on the cap until after the draft and some preseason cuts to evaluate and upgrade our talent depth. I have complete confidence..

farhat · Mar 14, 2015

Let's hope for a good draft! We've found some good players in the 2nd-7th (and undrafted) rounds like:

1) Bobby Wagner
2) Russell Wilson
3) Robert Turbin
4) Golden Tate
5) Richard Sherman
6) Kam Chancellor
7) KJ Wright
8 Malcolm Smith
9) Jeremy Lane
10) JR Sweezy
11) Jordan Hill
12) Luke Wilson
13) Justin Britt
14) Byron Maxwell
15) Doug Baldwin

But we've also picked some duds too:

1) EJ Wilsom (4th)
2) Dexter Davis (7th)
3) Jameson Konz (7th)
4) John Moffitt (3rd)
5) Kris Durham (4th)
6) Mark LeGree (5th)
7) Lazarius Levingston (7th)
8 Jaye Howard (4th)
9) Korey Toomer (5th)
10) Winston Guy (6th)
11) Chris Harper (4th)
12) Jesse Williams (5th)
13) Spencer Ware (6th)
14) Ty Powell (7th)
15) Jared Smith (7th)
16) James Carpenter (1st)

theincrediblesok · Mar 14, 2015

Ahhh Spencer Ware there was a guy I was really high on, man what could of should of if he had gotten his head right in the game.

Recon_Hawk · Mar 14, 2015

Quarterback: Russell Wilson, BJ Daniels

Seafan · Mar 14, 2015

Milton and Renfro are a couple other interior linemen the Hawks seem to be high on.

With 11 picks and UDFAs the Hawks should be able to add depth from this draft.

farhat · Mar 14, 2015

That is exactly my concern, though. We're high on Milton and Renfrow but can we count on them? In 2013, we had this kind of depth on the WR Roster: Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Doug Baldwin, Jermaine Kearse. Defensive Line depth: Bryant, Avril, Bennett, Clemons, McDonald, Mebane, Schoffield. Secondary Depth: Browner, Sherm, Chancellor, Thomas, Maxwell, Thurmond, Lane.

In preseason, we would always dominate because our 2nd and 3rd stringers were always better then everyone else.

Am I thinking about this correctly: when we bring in guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham that use a lot of cap space and give up draft picks, are we not depleting depth?

I know we would (including me) rather think that Schneider made good decisions when he brought these guys in. It helps us feel better about our reality. So, I'm actually hoping someone can make me feel better about this reality. But, I'm concerned that I'm probably right.

dopeboy206 · Mar 14, 2015

farhat":3byidaqp said:
What we learned from 2014 is that depth is really important. We lost Mebane, Hill, Marsh, Avril, and Lane, and didn't have good enough backups to keep up our defensive dominance. When we use up cap room on guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham, are we not addressing our offensive line and defensive depth? (Players in red below are players that I believe are not reliable backups.)

Offense

Quarterback: Russell Wilson, BJ Daniels
Running Back: Marshawn Lynch, Robert Turbin, Christine Michael
Fullback: Derrick Coleman, Mike Zimmer
WR: Chris Matthews, Kevin Norwood
Slot WR: Doug Baldwin, Paul Richardson
Tight End: Jimmy Graham, Luke Wilson
Left Tackle: Russell Okung
Left Guard: Alvin Bailey, CJ Davis
Center: Patrick Lewis, Jared Wheeler
Right Guard: JR Sweezy, Drew Nowak
Right Tackle: Justin Britt, Garry Gilliam
WR2: Jermaine Kearse, Ricardo Lockette

Defense

Defensive End: Cliff Avril, Cassius Marsh
Defensive Tackle: Brandon Mebane, Landon Cohen
Defensive Tackle: Tony McDaniel, Jordan Hill
Defensive End: Michael Bennett, Greg Scruggs
Outside Linebacker: Bruce Irvin, Mike Morgan
Middle Linebacker: Bobby Wagner, Brock Coyle
Outside Linebacker: KJ Wright, Kevin Pierre Louis
Cornerback: Cary Williams, Tharold Simon
Slot Cornerback: Jeremy Lane, Marcus Burley
Strong Safety: Kam Chancellor, Eric Pinkins
Free Safety: Earl Thomas, Steven Terrell
Cornerback: Richard Sherman, Will Blackmon

Where is Kearse?

HawKnPeppa · Mar 14, 2015

farhat":3dj9xq7u said:
That is exactly my concern, though. We're high on Milton and Renfrow but can we count on them? In 2013, we had this kind of depth on the WR Roster: Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Doug Baldwin, Jermaine Kearse. Defensive Line depth: Bryant, Avril, Bennett, Clemons, McDonald, Mebane, Schoffield. Secondary Depth: Browner, Sherm, Chancellor, Thomas, Maxwell, Thurmond, Lane.

In preseason, we would always dominate because our 2nd and 3rd stringers were always better then everyone else.

Am I thinking about this correctly: when we bring in guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham that use a lot of cap space and give up draft picks, are we not depleting depth?

I know we would (including me) rather think that Schneider made good decisions when he brought these guys in. It helps us feel better about our reality. So, I'm actually hoping someone can make me feel better about this reality. But, I'm concerned that I'm probably right.

So, you say that setting the table somewhat in free agency doesn't help us have a better, more focused draft? It's not like Schneiz was out there buying every name in sight. We have Jimmy Graham for the 31st pick, in a draft that most scouting departs say there are only 16 players that actually have 1st round talent. We also got a 4th in that deal. Unger was going to become a cap casualty anyway. Then we get Williams, a guy that fits what we are looking for in a CB playing opposite of Sherm, for a reasonable price. He made a run at Maxwell, but was overbid in at the end.

We have depth concerns, but I fail to see how that was affected by our GM's FA moves so far. Everything he's done so far has addressed a hole, or added a very helpful dimension to our O. He will continue to add depth in the draft and with UDFA's, as usual. Some of this is cyclical, because teams with good depth will always have other teams overpaying to acquire those players as their starters...by paying them starter money. No way could the Hawks keep them all and still continue to improve. In fact, we would get worse, because we wouldn't be able to keep many core players. He's done a pretty remarkable job retaining most of our core players...you can't do that AND keep every bit of your depth.

I don't get the hand wringing. What would you do? Not make any moves at all for fear you might make the wrong one? Stagnate while trying to keep a death grip on all of the depth players? :?

MysterMatt · Mar 14, 2015

Most teams would love to have our problems, ya know? Sure, we have challenges and really need a solid draft, but things could be worse.

Grahamhawker · Mar 14, 2015

HawKnPeppa":3nqszzsm said:
farhat":3nqszzsm said:

That is exactly my concern, though. We're high on Milton and Renfrow but can we count on them? In 2013, we had this kind of depth on the WR Roster: Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Doug Baldwin, Jermaine Kearse. Defensive Line depth: Bryant, Avril, Bennett, Clemons, McDonald, Mebane, Schoffield. Secondary Depth: Browner, Sherm, Chancellor, Thomas, Maxwell, Thurmond, Lane.

In preseason, we would always dominate because our 2nd and 3rd stringers were always better then everyone else.

Am I thinking about this correctly: when we bring in guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham that use a lot of cap space and give up draft picks, are we not depleting depth?

I know we would (including me) rather think that Schneider made good decisions when he brought these guys in. It helps us feel better about our reality. So, I'm actually hoping someone can make me feel better about this reality. But, I'm concerned that I'm probably right.

Click to expand...

So, you say that setting the table somewhat in free agency doesn't help us have a better, more focused draft? It's not like Schneiz was out there buying every name in sight. We have Jimmy Graham for the 31st pick, in a draft that most scouting departs say there are only 16 players that actually have 1st round talent. We also got a 4th in that deal. Unger was going to become a cap casualty anyway. Then we get Williams, a guy that fits what we are looking for in a CB playing opposite of Sherm, for a reasonable price. He made a run at Maxwell, but was overbid in at the end.

We have depth concerns, but I fail to see how that was affected by our GM's FA moves so far. Everything he's done so far has addressed a hole, or added a very helpful dimension to our O. He will continue to add depth in the draft and with UDFA's, as usual. Some of this is cyclical, because teams with good depth will always have other teams overpaying to acquire those players as their starters...by paying them starter money. No way could the Hawks keep them all and still continue to improve. In fact, we would get worse, because we wouldn't be able to keep many core players. He's done a pretty remarkable job retaining most of our core players...you can't do that AND keep every bit of your depth.

I don't get the hand wringing. What would you do? Not make any moves at all for fear you might make the wrong one? Stagnate while trying to keep a death grip on all of the depth players? :?

^^This^^

I would add that the poaching of Hawk players by the rest of the league seemed to escalate dramatically after the 2013 season. Hard to keep your quality depth with that happening continually. I have faith that JS has the insight and patience to replace quality depth as SOP.

theincrediblesok · Mar 14, 2015

I think our depth would be better this year. Some of the guys tasted their first season and we have others waiting in the wing. The ones injured last year will have a chance to compete and get it in this year.

Last year was a very heavy injury, depth ridden season and we were one play away from winning it again.

Back to back superbowl was hard enough to get back to, and somehow we did it. I'm not saying we will make it to the next one but if there is a team that could overcome alot of things, it's the Seahawks. They defy statistics.

Hyak · Mar 14, 2015

The reality of the NFL is that the salary cap. free agency, and the draft are mechanisms to ensure parity. Teams that have sustained success will see their star players either re-signed to big contracts or leave in FA. As more cap space is used on the core stars, there is less to be distributed to the rest of the team. Teams become more reliant on drafting success to maintain depth and the margin for error becomes smaller. If a star player gets injured or just doesn't produce, it's a potential season killer whereas in 2013 the depth was unbelievable.

In this era of Seahawk football, it's likely to be more like 2014 than 2013. The problem with depth was that the 2013/2014 drafts were not nearly as strong as the 2010-2012 drafts. That said, there's no question the Harvin trade was a factor there in the contract ROI and loss of 3 picks for a player who played in a handful of games.

I believe that's why you'll see Schneider try to maximize the use of comp picks in the next couple of years to help mitigate the depth risks. It's really imperative that the see more production from the 2013/2014 classes while hitting on most of the 2015 picks to fill needs whether it be immediate or for 2016/2017.

LTH · Mar 14, 2015

farhat":g7mw5ga8 said:
What we learned from 2014 is that depth is really important. We lost Mebane, Hill, Marsh, Avril, and Lane, and didn't have good enough backups to keep up our defensive dominance. When we use up cap room on guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham, are we not addressing our offensive line and defensive depth? (Players in red below are players that I believe are not reliable backups.)

Offense

Quarterback: Russell Wilson, BJ Daniels
Running Back: Marshawn Lynch, Robert Turbin, Christine Michael
Fullback: Derrick Coleman, Mike Zimmer
WR: Chris Matthews, Kevin Norwood
Slot WR: Doug Baldwin, Paul Richardson
Tight End: Jimmy Graham, Luke Wilson
Left Tackle: Russell Okung
Left Guard: Alvin Bailey, CJ Davis
Center: Patrick Lewis, Jared Wheeler
Right Guard: JR Sweezy, Drew Nowak
Right Tackle: Justin Britt, Garry Gilliam
WR2: Jermaine Kearse, Ricardo Lockette

Defense

Defensive End: Cliff Avril, Cassius Marsh
Defensive Tackle: Brandon Mebane, Landon Cohen
Defensive Tackle: Tony McDaniel, Jordan Hill
Defensive End: Michael Bennett, Greg Scruggs
Outside Linebacker: Bruce Irvin, Mike Morgan
Middle Linebacker: Bobby Wagner, Brock Coyle
Outside Linebacker: KJ Wright, Kevin Pierre Louis
Cornerback: Cary Williams, Tharold Simon
Slot Cornerback: Jeremy Lane, Marcus Burley
Strong Safety: Kam Chancellor, Eric Pinkins
Free Safety: Earl Thomas, Steven Terrell
Cornerback: Richard Sherman, Will Blackmon

Well they had depth reough to get to the SB so that says something...

LTH

SchadenfreudeHawk · Mar 15, 2015

If you are saying that you think it would have been wiser to spend the capital we had (cap space, money) on better depth than on Jimmy Graham then I disagree. We made it to the Superbowl with the depth that we have (during a season with a lot of injuries) and nearly won the thing. We didn't win the thing because of our redzone issues. During this upcoming season, if time is ticking down and it's 2nd and goal on the 2, are you really going to be mad that we have Jimmy Graham instead of a better backup Middle Linebacker? Jimmy all day, yo. All day.

farhat · Mar 15, 2015

That is a good point, Seanmatt. I think the Jimmy Graham trade is easier to swallow. I believe he is only an $8 million cap charge for an elite tight end and we got a 4th round pick out of it.

I think I'm still disappointed in the Percy Harvin trade. It was an $11 million cap charge in 2014 (the year after we won the Super Bowl and released players like Clinton McDonald, Walter Thurmond, Chris Clemons, and Golden Tate). Also, we will have a $7.2 million cap charge (or dead money) this year from the 2015, 2016 and 2017 proration of his signing bonus.

HawkFan72 · Mar 15, 2015

This pretty much sums it up:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/zjwhitman/status/577205540251545600[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/DavisHsuSeattle/status/577205788491399168[/tweet]

HawkAroundTheClock · Mar 16, 2015

Grahamhawker":ol6jgw42 said:
HawKnPeppa":ol6jgw42 said:

farhat":ol6jgw42 said:

That is exactly my concern, though. We're high on Milton and Renfrow but can we count on them? In 2013, we had this kind of depth on the WR Roster: Sidney Rice, Golden Tate, Percy Harvin, Doug Baldwin, Jermaine Kearse. Defensive Line depth: Bryant, Avril, Bennett, Clemons, McDonald, Mebane, Schoffield. Secondary Depth: Browner, Sherm, Chancellor, Thomas, Maxwell, Thurmond, Lane.

In preseason, we would always dominate because our 2nd and 3rd stringers were always better then everyone else.

Am I thinking about this correctly: when we bring in guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham that use a lot of cap space and give up draft picks, are we not depleting depth?

I know we would (including me) rather think that Schneider made good decisions when he brought these guys in. It helps us feel better about our reality. So, I'm actually hoping someone can make me feel better about this reality. But, I'm concerned that I'm probably right.

Click to expand...

So, you say that setting the table somewhat in free agency doesn't help us have a better, more focused draft? It's not like Schneiz was out there buying every name in sight. We have Jimmy Graham for the 31st pick, in a draft that most scouting departs say there are only 16 players that actually have 1st round talent. We also got a 4th in that deal. Unger was going to become a cap casualty anyway. Then we get Williams, a guy that fits what we are looking for in a CB playing opposite of Sherm, for a reasonable price. He made a run at Maxwell, but was overbid in at the end.

We have depth concerns, but I fail to see how that was affected by our GM's FA moves so far. Everything he's done so far has addressed a hole, or added a very helpful dimension to our O. He will continue to add depth in the draft and with UDFA's, as usual. Some of this is cyclical, because teams with good depth will always have other teams overpaying to acquire those players as their starters...by paying them starter money. No way could the Hawks keep them all and still continue to improve. In fact, we would get worse, because we wouldn't be able to keep many core players. He's done a pretty remarkable job retaining most of our core players...you can't do that AND keep every bit of your depth.

I don't get the hand wringing. What would you do? Not make any moves at all for fear you might make the wrong one? Stagnate while trying to keep a death grip on all of the depth players? :?

Click to expand...

^^This^^

I would add that the poaching of Hawk players by the rest of the league seemed to escalate dramatically after the 2013 season. Hard to keep your quality depth with that happening continually. I have faith that JS has the insight and patience to replace quality depth as SOP.

+1
We have that rare beast in P&J that creates a championship culture from scratch. So many FO's around the league can't cook and have to pay more for the pre-packaged goods. The shine of that ring goes a long way for starters getting big dough (Giacomini, Tate, Browner, Carpenter, Maxwell, etc.) while depth guys (Malcolm, Walters, Schofield) provide Pete's coaching tree with familiarity and instant buy-in as they try to implement the culture on their new teams. It's an unavoidable side effect of perennial success. All JS can do is offset the losses by adding quality contributors. If a game-changing ingredient like Graham is available, which almost never happens, P&J have to work it into the mix.

The depth will be developed from throughout the draft, FA, and UDFAs who start as no-names and get coached up in the system. You can't swing a cat in the Hawks locker room without hitting a valuable player with humble beginnings. We don't know the names of all our future role players, but we'll see them shake out in training camp.

Hyak · Mar 16, 2015

I think there's no question that the quality of depth isn't what it was in 2013 but that was extremely rare. Still, going into 2013, some of those guys were unproven. Kearse, Maxwell, and Lane stepped up significantly as did Smith. Baldwin elevated his game too.

The challenge is to develop young players through the draft and undrafted free agency to keep that pipeline going. I am confident that their system of player evaluation and development is proven.

My concern is DL. That's really one area where this regime has struggled to develop their own talent. Mebane was inherited and Hill is really the only one who has been productive and that was a limited period of time. Everybody else of note was either signed as a free agent or acquired via trade.

Hawks46 · Mar 16, 2015

farhat":308d5aut said:
What we learned from 2014 is that depth is really important. We lost Mebane, Hill, Marsh, Avril, and Lane, and didn't have good enough backups to keep up our defensive dominance. When we use up cap room on guys like Percy Harvin and Jimmy Graham, are we not addressing our offensive line and defensive depth? (Players in red below are players that I believe are not reliable backups.)

Offense

Quarterback: Russell Wilson, BJ Daniels
Running Back: Marshawn Lynch, Robert Turbin, Christine Michael
Fullback: Derrick Coleman, Mike Zimmer
WR: Chris Matthews, Kevin Norwood
Slot WR: Doug Baldwin, Paul Richardson
Tight End: Jimmy Graham, Luke Wilson
Left Tackle: Russell Okung
Left Guard: Alvin Bailey, CJ Davis
Center: Patrick Lewis, Jared Wheeler
Right Guard: JR Sweezy, Drew Nowak
Right Tackle: Justin Britt, Garry Gilliam
WR2: Jermaine Kearse, Ricardo Lockette

Defense

Defensive End: Cliff Avril, Cassius Marsh
Defensive Tackle: Brandon Mebane, Landon Cohen
Defensive Tackle: Tony McDaniel, Jordan Hill
Defensive End: Michael Bennett, Greg Scruggs
Outside Linebacker: Bruce Irvin, Mike Morgan
Middle Linebacker: Bobby Wagner, Brock Coyle
Outside Linebacker: KJ Wright, Kevin Pierre Louis
Cornerback: Cary Williams, Tharold Simon
Slot Cornerback: Jeremy Lane, Marcus Burley
Strong Safety: Kam Chancellor, Eric Pinkins
Free Safety: Earl Thomas, Steven Terrell
Cornerback: Richard Sherman, Will Blackmon

I would make a few tweaks, but it's not a big deal.

Blackmon is as of right now, likely to start in Lane's spot. If someone gets hurt, he shifts to the outside and Burley moves up.

KPL backs up Irvin's spot, not Wright's. He's a bit light in the pants to play on the strong side. Not too big of a deal here.

It's a testament to our depth that we got to the SB with all the injuries we had. We have good depth, not too many teams have the depth we did to be able to weather all those injuries and progress.

I'm not too worried about our depth before the draft. If we didn't have any holes in our depth, where would all those draft picks land ? We'd have to package all of them up and get a few 2nd and 3rd rounders and raid the top of the draft depth.

Now, at the end of TC, after injuries and progression, I'll be worried if we don't have viable backups.

2015 Depth Challenges?

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