Tom Cable Stats (No WR over 1k yards under ZBS)

There's been alot of fingerpointing at players and coaches but not many are willing to blame the scheme, and by scheme I mean the Zone Blocking Scheme. Under Cable's NFL career from 2006 to present he has not produce any WR that break over 1k yards. People question why our WR aren't lethal but in the end it's the system they are put in. In any other team where you are a legit #1 you get at least 140 Targets your way, in our system you get less than 90 (Doug got 98 in 2014) Targets. This is why we shouldn't be looking to point fingers but to further understand why our system works the way they do, and understand that Jimmy Graham might not hit 1k yards in this offense (but Baldwin might), it's just the way the ZBS is built.

I believe Bevell is doing the best he can with the O-line he's given especially when the O-line is built to be more of a running offense, I think maybe that's where his creativity gets stuck and trying to find new wrinkles to compliment the run game might be asking too much from him.

Below I provide a stats sheet I made to show further proof.





Some Key Points:

- Zach Miller was the most consistent player for Tom Cable during his Raider days.

- In 2011 Marshawn and Doug was the bright spot. Tarvaris threw for over 3k yards but only had 14 TD to 13 INT

- Once Wilson comes in the Rushing yards boost up and so did the TD for passing.

- Doug has been the most consistent player for Seattle.

- In 2014 our offense was starting to look like the player personnel of the 2011 Seahawks. Doug ended up being the Leading Receiver again. The difference was we had Wilson and his threat of his legs.

**Raiders also use the Zone Blocking Scheme and from 2011-present they have not produce a 1K yarder for their WR group either.

theincrediblesok":14pmi0pa said:

There's been alot of fingerpointing at players and coaches but not many are willing to blame the scheme, and by scheme I mean the Zone Blocking Scheme. Under Cable's NFL career from 2006 to present he has not produce any WR that break over 1k yards. People question why our WR aren't lethal but in the end it's the system they are put in. In any other team where you are a legit #1 you get at least 140 Targets your way, in our system you get less than 90 Targets. This is why we shouldn't be looking to point fingers but to further understand why our system works the way they do, and understand that Jimmy Graham might not hit 1k yards in this offense (but Baldwin might), it's just the way the ZBS is built.

I believe Bevell is doing the best he can with the O-line he's given especially when the O-line is built to be more of a running offense, I think maybe that's where his creativity gets stuck and trying to find new wrinkles to compliment the run game might be asking too much from him.

Below I provide a stats sheet I made to show further proof.





Some Key Points:

- Zach Miller was the most consistent player for Tom Cable during his Raider days.

- In 2011 Marshawn and Doug was the bright spot. Tarvaris threw for over 3k yards but only had 14 TD to 13 INT

- Once Wilson comes in the Rushing yards boost up and so did the TD for passing.

- Doug has been the most consistent player for Seattle.

- In 2014 our offense was starting to look like the player personnel of the 2011 Seahawks. Doug ended up being the Leading Receiver again. The difference was we had Wilson and his threat of his legs.

**Raiders also use the Zone Blocking Scheme and from 2011-present they have not produce a 1K yarder for their WR group either.

Click to expand...

That is a good point however not one Wr we have would be a #1 wr on any good team. Our best WR DB would be a 2-3. So I agree Scheme does have something to do with it, but not having a Legit #1 does as well.

Anthony!":2q2ywr23 said:

theincrediblesok":2q2ywr23 said:

There's been alot of fingerpointing at players and coaches but not many are willing to blame the scheme, and by scheme I mean the Zone Blocking Scheme. Under Cable's NFL career from 2006 to present he has not produce any WR that break over 1k yards. People question why our WR aren't lethal but in the end it's the system they are put in. In any other team where you are a legit #1 you get at least 140 Targets your way, in our system you get less than 90 Targets. This is why we shouldn't be looking to point fingers but to further understand why our system works the way they do, and understand that Jimmy Graham might not hit 1k yards in this offense (but Baldwin might), it's just the way the ZBS is built.

I believe Bevell is doing the best he can with the O-line he's given especially when the O-line is built to be more of a running offense, I think maybe that's where his creativity gets stuck and trying to find new wrinkles to compliment the run game might be asking too much from him.

Below I provide a stats sheet I made to show further proof.





Some Key Points:

- Zach Miller was the most consistent player for Tom Cable during his Raider days.

- In 2011 Marshawn and Doug was the bright spot. Tarvaris threw for over 3k yards but only had 14 TD to 13 INT

- Once Wilson comes in the Rushing yards boost up and so did the TD for passing.

- Doug has been the most consistent player for Seattle.

- In 2014 our offense was starting to look like the player personnel of the 2011 Seahawks. Doug ended up being the Leading Receiver again. The difference was we had Wilson and his threat of his legs.

**Raiders also use the Zone Blocking Scheme and from 2011-present they have not produce a 1K yarder for their WR group either.

Click to expand...

That is a good point however not one Wr we have would be a #1 wr on any good team. Our best WR DB would be a 2-3. So I agree Scheme does have something to do with it, but not having a Legit #1 does as well.

Click to expand...

Some #2 WR on other teams could get 1k yards just by getting more targets. If you give DB 120 targets I bet ya he would get 1k yards on a heavy passing team. In 2014 he got 98 targets and came down with 66 of them for 825 yards. Give em the same average he came down with of 12.5 for 22 more targets that's 275 more yards, total yards would of been 1100 yards. This is of course playing with a legit #1 on his side, which we now have in Graham, which is why I think Baldwin would be the one to get the 1k yard for the first time in the Wilson era.

This would appear to prove that Angry Doug is a legit #1 receiver.
So NYA, NYA, NYA all you haters. :141847_bnono:

I love the thinking outside the box. But I think it is a bit of a stretch to try to show a relationship between the scheme your team uses to run block and the production of your wide receivers. There have been zone blocking teams that run a lot, and zone blocking teams that run very little. If you were to say that no player since Tom Cable has become a head coach has had 1000 yards receiving, that might be a bit easier to buy, although I am not sure that he has ever called plays.

I think Cable being a part of this is pure coincidence. It has much more to do with the ball control offenses that have been employed by the teams he has coached for, until recently the lack of a good quarterback, and the lack of #1 WR talent.

We're going to get way more production out of the TE position than we got last year. Also, another receiver besides Baldwin could break out a bit. I don't expect us to pass significantly more often than we did this year. When we ignored the run, we looked bad. Because of these factors, I think it more sensible to expect Baldwin's targets, catches and yards to be decreased, not increased. I don't see how we can get the TE position a lot more targets AND get Baldwin a lot more targets, without throwing the ball SIGNIFICANTLY more often. The math just doesn't make sense to me.

The lack of 1000 yard receivers makes sense. Every one of those teams were probably among the league leaders in rush attempts during those seasons.

Rocket":1babrxce said:

This would appear to prove that Angry Doug is a legit #1 receiver.
So NYA, NYA, NYA all you haters. :141847_bnono:

Click to expand...

Ahh no it does not and he is not.

Not only has every team lacked a number one WR, but they also were deep with number two WRs so the ball got spread around pretty evenly. If you look at the guys that do get over 1000 yards in a season, there are usually only two receivers that get a majority of pass attempts on those teams with a huge drop to the next guy.

One could also argue that the QBs Cable has had working with him weren't allowed to pass the ball a lot and/or weren't very good.

I think the best argument as to why there have not been any 1000 yard receivers is that Cable's teams have usually led the NFL in rushing which takes time off the clock which allows for fewer plays and fewer possessions throughout the season. With run games that good, why would a team pass the ball more than they have to?

Ball Control offense isn't that hard to understand.

Scottemojo":y7z43fub said:

Ball Control offense isn't that hard to understand.

Click to expand...

What I appreciate about this thread is that it acknowledges that the architect of this offense is not Bevell. He is the play caller.

For a stretch of games in 2011 Bevell got to try his hand at being more than a play caller. Anyone remember the hurry up experiment? Tarvaris was racking 300 yard games and lots of attempts for about a 3 game stretch. But it wasn't making points. Then midway through a hurry up disaster in Dallas, Pete (and Cable) pulled the plug. In the midst of a loss, and trailing badly, they stopped the hurry up and put this team back on Lynch's shoulders.

Two times, counting the Harvin experiment, Seattle has tried to be something it is not, and both times Bevell's contribution has been lackluster. When Seattle goes back to Cable ball, they start winning again.

Which is why I fear how they will use, or misuse, Graham. In reality, I would trust Cable as our OC far more than Tom, when I see what the two of them did with Zach Miller in both Oakland and here the contrast is stark.

Rocket":1sbzwoha said:

This would appear to prove that Angry Doug is a legit #1 receiver.
So NYA, NYA, NYA all you haters. :141847_bnono:

Click to expand...

Not to derail this thread, but I was thinking you may have spelled it wrong on the NYA...and there are actually 2 spellings allowed according to otomotopeaya. (Onomatopoeia Dictionary)

nyah, nyah

interjection, typically used to taunt, ridicule, or boast in a childish manner. Verbal way of sticking your tongue out or laughing at someone. Often pronounced in a nasal voice. See also: neener, neener; na na, na NA na; nya, nya


Carry on. 8)

Scottemojo":2ldqnd11 said:

Scottemojo":2ldqnd11 said:

Ball Control offense isn't that hard to understand.

Click to expand...

What I appreciate about this thread is that it acknowledges that the architect of this offense is not Bevell. He is the play caller.

For a stretch of games in 2011 Bevell got to try his hand at being more than a play caller. Anyone remember the hurry up experiment? Tarvaris was racking 300 yard games and lots of attempts for about a 3 game stretch. But it wasn't making points. Then midway through a hurry up disaster in Dallas, Pete (and Cable) pulled the plug. In the midst of a loss, and trailing badly, they stopped the hurry up and put this team back on Lynch's shoulders.

Two times, counting the Harvin experiment, Seattle has tried to be something it is not, and both times Bevell's contribution has been lackluster. When Seattle goes back to Cable ball, they start winning again.

Which is why I fear how they will use, or misuse, Graham. In reality, I would trust Cable as our OC far more than Tom, when I see what the two of them did with Zach Miller in both Oakland and here the contrast is stark.

Click to expand...

Fantastic insight Scotty, I hadn't really put that together but you are correct. Great observation.

Funny in another thread I kind of made the argument for not paying Lynch 12 mill but bringing in a stud WR to pair up with Jimmy instead. Your theory pretty much flushes my argument down the drain so thanks for that.

Scottemojo":2829k306 said:

Scottemojo":2829k306 said:

Ball Control offense isn't that hard to understand.

Click to expand...

What I appreciate about this thread is that it acknowledges that the architect of this offense is not Bevell. He is the play caller.

For a stretch of games in 2011 Bevell got to try his hand at being more than a play caller. Anyone remember the hurry up experiment? Tarvaris was racking 300 yard games and lots of attempts for about a 3 game stretch. But it wasn't making points. Then midway through a hurry up disaster in Dallas, Pete (and Cable) pulled the plug. In the midst of a loss, and trailing badly, they stopped the hurry up and put this team back on Lynch's shoulders.

Two times, counting the Harvin experiment, Seattle has tried to be something it is not, and both times Bevell's contribution has been lackluster. When Seattle goes back to Cable ball, they start winning again.

Which is why I fear how they will use, or misuse, Graham. In reality, I would trust Cable as our OC far more than Tom, when I see what the two of them did with Zach Miller in both Oakland and here the contrast is stark.

Click to expand...

So if I'm reading this correctly, you cite the 2011 season and some games with Percy Harvin as the only instances where Bev primarily influenced the offense? The rest is to be laid at the feet of Cable? Is this your take?

Seahawkfan80":reeqlzme said:

Rocket":reeqlzme said:

This would appear to prove that Angry Doug is a legit #1 receiver.
So NYA, NYA, NYA all you haters. :141847_bnono:

Click to expand...

Not to derail this thread, but I was thinking you may have spelled it wrong on the NYA...and there are actually 2 spellings allowed according to otomotopeaya. (Onomatopoeia Dictionary)

nyah, nyah

interjection, typically used to taunt, ridicule, or boast in a childish manner. Verbal way of sticking your tongue out or laughing at someone. Often pronounced in a nasal voice. See also: neener, neener; na na, na NA na; nya, nya


Carry on. 8)

Click to expand...

One cannot un-NYA a NYA, it's in the rule book ya damn heathen.
Sheesh.
However, you did attempt to justify your disagreement, which is more than the other detractor.

A Legit #1... And an angry One to boot.

Scottemojo":8avnlclf said:

Scottemojo":8avnlclf said:

Ball Control offense isn't that hard to understand.

Click to expand...

What I appreciate about this thread is that it acknowledges that the architect of this offense is not Bevell. He is the play caller.

For a stretch of games in 2011 Bevell got to try his hand at being more than a play caller. Anyone remember the hurry up experiment? Tarvaris was racking 300 yard games and lots of attempts for about a 3 game stretch. But it wasn't making points. Then midway through a hurry up disaster in Dallas, Pete (and Cable) pulled the plug. In the midst of a loss, and trailing badly, they stopped the hurry up and put this team back on Lynch's shoulders.

Two times, counting the Harvin experiment, Seattle has tried to be something it is not, and both times Bevell's contribution has been lackluster. When Seattle goes back to Cable ball, they start winning again.

Which is why I fear how they will use, or misuse, Graham. In reality, I would trust Cable as our OC far more than Tom, when I see what the two of them did with Zach Miller in both Oakland and here the contrast is stark.

Click to expand...

This specific thread is only about Tom Cable's system I added the notation of the Raiders in there because I believe they are still using Tom's foundation over there, please correct me if I am wrong.

Don't forget when Wilson is in the hurry offense he puts up massive yards compared to Tarvaris in it. Better QB, better leading offense, Papa Johns.

Is the playcalling for Harvin's Bevell fault, how come he was able to use him all over the place during his Viking years but couldn't do it here, could it be that Pete limited Harvin to those short route roles knowing that they were trying too hard not to get him injured. When Harvin did get more of that role in the Jet's offense he got injured?

I agree with you on some points, Cable's o-line is a heavy clock chewing full tilt rushing team, his system has to have more rushing to be successful. There are other teams out there that uses ZBS but they pass more and their strengths on the o-line is better for pass protection. Then there is the Dallas O-linemen which started to be really good at both (Why can't we get/draft guys that are great at both?). Even our passing play is slow developing deep bombs just like Pete said he uses the run to set out the Deep routes, but we don't have much of a deep threat in Kearse, Sidney was money for us when he was healthy.

If you look at our roster our guys are damn good at run blocking, but how much credit do you give to them when Marshawn have crazy YAC every season, and with Wilson it looks even much better. If we took away Marshawn's YAC and the threat of Wilson, then we might not even have a great rushing team.

Tom Cable
Year - Attemps passing - Attempts rushing
2006 - 416 - 537
2007 - 451 - 508
2008 - 421 - 459
2009 - 485 - 410
2010 - 491 - 504
2011 - 509 - 444 Tarvaris Year
2012 - 405 - 536
2013 - 420 - 509
2014 - 454 - 525

I agree for 2011 with Tarvaris they threw way too much, but it was a turning point it helped the team found it's identity and by half of the season they went 5-3, the problem was Tarvaris was injured and he was throwing INT like nobody's business.

Darrell Bevell
Year - Attempts Passing - Attempts Rushing - Win/Lose
2006 - 540 - 530 - 6/10
2007 - 432 - 494 - 8/8
2008 - 452 - 444 - 10/6
2009 - 553 - 548 - 12-4 * Sidney Rice 121 Targets came down with 83 of em for 1312 yards
2010 - 505 - 503 - 6/10

While checking something else look at what I've found for Bevell, he only produce 1 WR as a 1k yarder. It shows that having Bevell and Cable pretty much limits us to having that 1k yarder. As some speculated that he might misuse Graham, and that is a possibility but it also shows with a good QB in 2009 he can make someone produce those yards, but it looks like it will have to be a faster pace offense.

I think there is a lot of truth to this belief that Cable's system limits WR production. Just look at the fact that Golden Tate in his first year at Detroit ended up with 99 receptions for over 1300 yards. His last year with the Hawks only had 64 and a little less than 900 yards which could be considered a very good comparison. Same player. Different system. Makes sense to me.

I think play calling and scheme reflect team philosophy and culture. And, the well spring of that, in Seattle, is Pete Carroll.

Since this thread speaks to wide receivers and their seasonal stats, it might be useful to consider adding wide receiver coach Kippy Brown as a side note. Wide receiver coach Kippy Brown had great success in Detroit supporting a very different offensive scheme that reflected a very different philosophy and culture .... that of then offensive coordinator Mike Martz.

In 2006, Detroit’s top two receivers combined for 180 receptions and 2,396 yards, more than doubling the output of the Lions’ top two receivers in 2005. WR Roy Williams, who led the NFC that season with a career-high 1,310 receiving yards, was the second receiver coached by Brown to be named to a Pro Bowl. He also coached the conference’s receptions leader in Mike Furrey (98 receptions for 1,082 yards). It was the first time since 1999 that two Lions receivers finished with over 1,000 yards. Williams and Furrey became the first teammates to lead their conference in receiving yards and receptions since Houston’s Haywood Jeffries tied with teammate Drew Hill with an AFC high 74 catches and Jeffries had 1,048 receiving yards. Williams and Furrey are the first NFC duo to accomplish this since the 1970 merger. Link >>> [urltargetblank]http://www.seahawks.com/team/coaches/roster/kippy-brown[/urltargetblank]

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Impressive numbers. And yet in 2006, the Detroit Lions failed to make the playoffs with a 3-13 season.

In 2007, the Lions wide receivers caught the second-most passes (268) and had the secondmost yards (3,370 yards) among wide receiving units in the NFL (second only to New England in both categories). Detroit was the only team to have four players, all wide receivers, each with more than 650 receiving yards: Shaun McDonald (943 yards), Roy Williams (836 yards), Calvin Johnson (756 yards) and Mike Furrey (664 yards). The Lions also became the first team with four wide receivers recording over 650 yards since Houston in 1990.

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And yet in 2007, while doing a better job of spreading the ball around and turning in impressive receiving numbers, the Detroit Lions failed to make the playoffs with a 7-9 season.

My point is that many Seahawk coaches and players are capable of supporting various schemes. However, the chief architect in Seattle is Pete Carroll. The philosophy and resulting culture from that architect defines the schemes that produces team victories. And victories are, by far, the most important stat.

Winning forever works for me.

kf3339":g4o9vciz said:

I think there is a lot of truth to this belief that Cable's system limits WR production. Just look at the fact that Golden Tate in his first year at Detroit ended up with 99 receptions for over 1300 yards. His last year with the Hawks only had 64 and a little less than 900 yards which could be considered a very good comparison. Same player. Different system. Makes sense to me.

Click to expand...

E X A C T I M U N D O !!!!

kf3339":14dimc0b said:

I think there is a lot of truth to this belief that Cable's system limits WR production. Just look at the fact that Golden Tate in his first year at Detroit ended up with 99 receptions for over 1300 yards. His last year with the Hawks only had 64 and a little less than 900 yards which could be considered a very good comparison. Same player. Different system. Makes sense to me.

Click to expand...

That much is obvious, but what does Tom Cable and a zone blocking scheme have to do with any of that?

In 2014, Stafford had 602 pass attempts. Tate was targeted 142 times.
In 2013, Wilson had 407 pass attempts. Tate was targeted 98 times.

Tate's numbers didn't magically explode because he left a zone blocking scheme, they went up because he left for a pass-oriented offense and his targets rose by 150%. I'm sort of scratching my head how Tom Cable fits into any of this. To me, it's pretty clear that we just play to our strengths (ball control, Lynch, Wilson's legs, etc). If Tom Cable went to Detroit / Denver / Green Bay / New Orleans / etc I don't think their WR production would be affected; it's the personnel/philosophy, not Tom Cable/blocking schemes.

Rocket":2g7d8w0f said:

This would appear to prove that Angry Doug is a legit #1 receiver.
So NYA, NYA, NYA all you haters. :141847_bnono:

Click to expand...

Except he isn't a #1 WR and everyone knows that.