Slow Start on Offense Could Be Pete Carroll's Issue

I don't get why some folks are blaming Wilson for the slow start, this has happened even before Wilson was drafted. It could be Pete's Carroll's philosophy to let the other team show their hands before we unload all our plays on them. The scripted plays gauges the opponent and then we make adjustment in the 2nd half to take advantage of those information we receive in the 1st half. It's a tactic that has it's own flaws, especially when those teams starts scoring points on our defense.

I made a chart below that shows the TDs made, keep in mind all those TDs are for everything (Offensive, Defensive, Special Teams TDs)

You can see that they play their best in the 3rd and 4th Quarter, two different Offensive Coordinators.

Matt Hasselbeck was 12 TD 17 INT in 2010
Tarvaris Jackson was 14 TD 13 INT in 2011

I'm not saying that Wilson is perfect but putting the blame on the slow start solely on one person is just looking for another reason to use it as an argument against Wilson. I will be the first to say yes Wilson needs to have better ball placement and wish we could use the middle of the field more and get the ball out quicker, but how much does that have to do more with Pete's philosophy of protecting the ball more than anything which coincide with Bevell's play-calling in the 1st half?

Good looking out. I was chatting with my fantasy fellows Okie and Austin about the same thing. Pete mentioned in, I believe the NFCCG against 49ers that they still needed more information about the run game. So, it's fairly certain that they run more than a few of their plays for the information just as much for the potential success.

Of course, it can be rather frustrating to watch at times, too, and there should probably be more success in there - so it'd be nice if there were more flexibility in the process.

I'm thinking, like they said, the run setups everything. If a run doesn't work well on certain plays, they go to a pass play in the 2nd half or pass it to Lynch to get the ball in his hands. They also give Wilson better designed plays in the 2nd half that allows him to do more, this is why he gets labeled as being good only in the 3rd and 4th quarter.

Tell me why Bevell had Percy for many years and was able to use him down field with the vikings, but once he gets to the Seahawks, Bevell didn't know how to use him all of a sudden?

Percy even said that they didn't want to use him that way, and I have my theory of why and it has to do with his injury and problematic issues in the locker room, it was better to trade him and get something then let him go when he does get injured and get nothing. The only way to keep him healthy was to used him in jetsweeps and bubble screens (less injury) in the early season of 2013 where they were showcasing him.

This offense is built for the run game and it's Beast's offense. This is not Wilson's offense. Wilson is the caretaker of the ball for Lynch and that's it. All the Receivers block for Marshawn and that is a requirement. Bevell might be restricted on what he can do with Wilson because of these reasons, and why the playcalling has been less than stellar for the last 3 years.

Before 2014 we had legitimate deep threat in Tate and Rice, and no Kearse is not a deep threat, even though we use him as one. I will keep saying it again and again, we need a deep threat and Lockett/Richardson is the guy. The FO doesn't have a good history of knowing how good the guy is until an injury appears and the backup plays very well, for example, Richard Sherman, Jeremy Lane, Byron Maxwell, Golden Tate (All these guys had more playing time when they replaced the starters to injury). Until Kearse is back on being our 3rd Receiver, injured, or gone next season we won't see Lockett line outside as a starter.

So we get a deep threat in the draft in Paul Richardson and mostly used him in the short passing game, it's like the FO tries to outsmart themselves. Let's get Zach Miller who was a leading receiver (TE) for the Raiders and use him mostly as a blocking TE. Let's get one of the best TE in Jimmy Graham and get him to block. I could go on and on.

Just curious but don't we have scouts that have the responsibility to do this research on upcoming opponents "BEFORE" we play them like every other team does to us every season? Why do we have to literally "WASTE" nearly the entire first half to figure out how the other team will play us on offense before we can game plan for them?

If that truly is PC's strategy, then that is just plain stupid.

theincrediblesok":2i5px2dk said:

I don't get why some folks are blaming Wilson for the slow start, this has happened even before Wilson was drafted. It could be Pete's Carroll's philosophy to let the other team show their hands before we unload all our plays on them. The scripted plays gauges the opponent and then we make adjustment in the 2nd half to take advantage of those information we receive in the 1st half. It's a tactic that has it's own flaws, especially when those teams starts scoring points on our defense.

I made a chart below that shows the TDs made, keep in mind all those TDs are for everything (Offensive, Defensive, Special Teams TDs)

You can see that they play their best in the 3rd and 4th Quarter, two different Offensive Coordinators.

Matt Hasselbeck was 12 TD 17 INT in 2010
Tarvaris Jackson was 14 TD 13 INT in 2011

I'm not saying that Wilson is perfect but putting the blame on the slow start solely on one person is just looking for another reason to use it as an argument against Wilson. I will be the first to say yes Wilson needs to have better ball placement and wish we could use the middle of the field more and get the ball out quicker, but how much does that have to do more with Pete's philosophy of protecting the ball more than anything which coincide with Bevell's play-calling in the 1st half?

Click to expand...

When Collinsworthless nails what we should be doing from the jump you don't have to be a genius to know it's ALL Pete's issue and it's one he better get over with a quickness.

So the thought is that the team ought to be more aggressive and play in the first half the way they do in the second half instead of feeling out the opponent in the first half and making halftime adjustments?

Because the way Carroll is doing it has gotten us to back to back Super Bowls.

I agree, it's frustrating. But I think it's hardest on those fans in the game forum who give up at halftime or the third quarter when the team is just catching on fire. This team is never out of it and GB's 10 pt win was the most of the Russell Wilson era and the first double digit loss of his career. It only happened because of a late game pick. In Lambeau.

From the minute Carroll got here, we - myself included - complained that "if only Carroll's initial gameplan was as good as his halftime adjustments." Well, guess what people? He was feeling out the other team from day one. It's how Pete plays the game.

And so far it's worked FANTASTIC.

They've said our offense was crap every year. EVERY YEAR. Remember we stumbled into the playoffs looking so beatable in 2013? And people continued to say we weren't that good. Our offense wasn't good enough (4th best offense that year). Yet everyone saying it wasn't good enough. Because Carroll's tactics LOOK awful and are hard to watch. Feel out the opponent, make excellent halftime adjustments, win game. Is the game won in the first quarter? No. Is it won in the second quarter? No. When is the game won? In the 4th quarter.

It works and Pete Carroll isn't going to change his philosophy after back to back SB's. So might as well quit bitching and moaning about it and get used to it.

MizzouHawkGal":2bnthj8x said:

theincrediblesok":2bnthj8x said:

I don't get why some folks are blaming Wilson for the slow start, this has happened even before Wilson was drafted. It could be Pete's Carroll's philosophy to let the other team show their hands before we unload all our plays on them. The scripted plays gauges the opponent and then we make adjustment in the 2nd half to take advantage of those information we receive in the 1st half. It's a tactic that has it's own flaws, especially when those teams starts scoring points on our defense.

I made a chart below that shows the TDs made, keep in mind all those TDs are for everything (Offensive, Defensive, Special Teams TDs)

You can see that they play their best in the 3rd and 4th Quarter, two different Offensive Coordinators.

Matt Hasselbeck was 12 TD 17 INT in 2010
Tarvaris Jackson was 14 TD 13 INT in 2011

I'm not saying that Wilson is perfect but putting the blame on the slow start solely on one person is just looking for another reason to use it as an argument against Wilson. I will be the first to say yes Wilson needs to have better ball placement and wish we could use the middle of the field more and get the ball out quicker, but how much does that have to do more with Pete's philosophy of protecting the ball more than anything which coincide with Bevell's play-calling in the 1st half?

Click to expand...

When Collinsworthless nails what we should be doing from the jump you don't have to be a genius to know it's ALL Pete's issue and it's one he better get over with a wuickness.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Carroll has been holding this team back for years now. They can kiss any hopes of reaching a Super Bowl good bye without some sort of change.

:roll:

I get it.. the slow starts are frustrating, and it would probably be a much more relaxing experience to be out in front by a comfortable margin at the half.. but how often has this team been behind by more than a possession at the half? It's very, very rare.

Likewise, the notion that Pete is wanting his team to start out slow is ridiculous. I'm sure their ideal gameplan is having all of the plays and schemes work perfectly. Guess what? The NFL is kind of a competitive sport.. and Carroll has proven many times over that he is capable of adjusting throughout the game to break through.

MizzouHawkGal":1zx899aj said:

theincrediblesok":1zx899aj said:

I don't get why some folks are blaming Wilson for the slow start, this has happened even before Wilson was drafted. It could be Pete's Carroll's philosophy to let the other team show their hands before we unload all our plays on them. The scripted plays gauges the opponent and then we make adjustment in the 2nd half to take advantage of those information we receive in the 1st half. It's a tactic that has it's own flaws, especially when those teams starts scoring points on our defense.

I made a chart below that shows the TDs made, keep in mind all those TDs are for everything (Offensive, Defensive, Special Teams TDs)

You can see that they play their best in the 3rd and 4th Quarter, two different Offensive Coordinators.

Matt Hasselbeck was 12 TD 17 INT in 2010
Tarvaris Jackson was 14 TD 13 INT in 2011

I'm not saying that Wilson is perfect but putting the blame on the slow start solely on one person is just looking for another reason to use it as an argument against Wilson. I will be the first to say yes Wilson needs to have better ball placement and wish we could use the middle of the field more and get the ball out quicker, but how much does that have to do more with Pete's philosophy of protecting the ball more than anything which coincide with Bevell's play-calling in the 1st half?

Click to expand...

When Collinsworthless nails what we should be doing from the jump you don't have to be a genius to know it's ALL Pete's issue and it's one he better get over with a quickness.

Click to expand...

All the experts have said the same thing this offense runs best when Wilson is calling the shots. However that is not PCs way

Hasselbeck":36xayst0 said:

MizzouHawkGal":36xayst0 said:

theincrediblesok":36xayst0 said:

I don't get why some folks are blaming Wilson for the slow start, this has happened even before Wilson was drafted. It could be Pete's Carroll's philosophy to let the other team show their hands before we unload all our plays on them. The scripted plays gauges the opponent and then we make adjustment in the 2nd half to take advantage of those information we receive in the 1st half. It's a tactic that has it's own flaws, especially when those teams starts scoring points on our defense.

I made a chart below that shows the TDs made, keep in mind all those TDs are for everything (Offensive, Defensive, Special Teams TDs)

You can see that they play their best in the 3rd and 4th Quarter, two different Offensive Coordinators.

Matt Hasselbeck was 12 TD 17 INT in 2010
Tarvaris Jackson was 14 TD 13 INT in 2011

I'm not saying that Wilson is perfect but putting the blame on the slow start solely on one person is just looking for another reason to use it as an argument against Wilson. I will be the first to say yes Wilson needs to have better ball placement and wish we could use the middle of the field more and get the ball out quicker, but how much does that have to do more with Pete's philosophy of protecting the ball more than anything which coincide with Bevell's play-calling in the 1st half?

Click to expand...

When Collinsworthless nails what we should be doing from the jump you don't have to be a genius to know it's ALL Pete's issue and it's one he better get over with a wuickness.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Carroll has been holding this team back for years now. They can kiss any hopes of reaching a Super Bowl good bye without some sort of change.

:roll:

I get it.. the slow starts are frustrating, and it would probably be a much more relaxing experience to be out in front by a comfortable margin at the half.. but how often has this team been behind by more than a possession at the half? It's very, very rare.

Likewise, the notion that Pete is wanting his team to start out slow is ridiculous. I'm sure their ideal gameplan is having all of the plays and schemes work perfectly. Guess what? The NFL is kind of a competitive sport.. and Carroll has proven many times over that he is capable of adjusting throughout the game to break through.

Click to expand...

To me it is less about how frustrating they are and more about the number of less informed people, to include some on this board who continue to blame Wilson.

Anthony!":2ygw88f0 said:

To me it is less about how frustrating they are and more about the number of less informed people, to include some on this board who continue to blame Wilson.

Click to expand...

There have been quite a few games where he has played terrible to start, and great to finish. But yes, it's not always on Wilson. Today his blocking was really poor early on and he had a big drop from Ricardo following the long PR from Sherman that basically killed any hopes of 6 points there.

I think your mentioning the scripted plays aspect could also hold a lot of weight, because it feels like DB/Pete don't want to deviate from the initial script.. probably in large part to work on their adjustments after the fact. I don't know, to me, I feel like the offense just flows a LOT better when Russell is in a higher tempo/no huddle offense and the defense has to play on their heels. It's no surprise that the best drive of the first half today was a 2 minute offense.

Either way, I feel like the coaches don't particularly care about how slow they come out of the gate, because the defense rarely plays in a way where the offense has to make up a big margin on the scoreboard.. thus allowing them the necessary time to adjust on the fly and go to work.

An interesting stat, considering the Rams are supposedly one of the best defenses in the league.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/hawkblogger/status/648344131392016384[/tweet]

Hasselbeck":2e4cbliw said:

MizzouHawkGal":2e4cbliw said:

theincrediblesok":2e4cbliw said:

I don't get why some folks are blaming Wilson for the slow start, this has happened even before Wilson was drafted. It could be Pete's Carroll's philosophy to let the other team show their hands before we unload all our plays on them. The scripted plays gauges the opponent and then we make adjustment in the 2nd half to take advantage of those information we receive in the 1st half. It's a tactic that has it's own flaws, especially when those teams starts scoring points on our defense.

I made a chart below that shows the TDs made, keep in mind all those TDs are for everything (Offensive, Defensive, Special Teams TDs)

You can see that they play their best in the 3rd and 4th Quarter, two different Offensive Coordinators.

Matt Hasselbeck was 12 TD 17 INT in 2010
Tarvaris Jackson was 14 TD 13 INT in 2011

I'm not saying that Wilson is perfect but putting the blame on the slow start solely on one person is just looking for another reason to use it as an argument against Wilson. I will be the first to say yes Wilson needs to have better ball placement and wish we could use the middle of the field more and get the ball out quicker, but how much does that have to do more with Pete's philosophy of protecting the ball more than anything which coincide with Bevell's play-calling in the 1st half?

Click to expand...

When Collinsworthless nails what we should be doing from the jump you don't have to be a genius to know it's ALL Pete's issue and it's one he better get over with a wuickness.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Carroll has been holding this team back for years now. They can kiss any hopes of reaching a Super Bowl good bye without some sort of change.

:roll:

I get it.. the slow starts are frustrating, and it would probably be a much more relaxing experience to be out in front by a comfortable margin at the half.. but how often has this team been behind by more than a possession at the half? It's very, very rare.

Likewise, the notion that Pete is wanting his team to start out slow is ridiculous. I'm sure their ideal gameplan is having all of the plays and schemes work perfectly. Guess what? The NFL is kind of a competitive sport.. and Carroll has proven many times over that he is capable of adjusting throughout the game to break through.

Click to expand...

When do they adjust? They only adjust in the 2nd half. Oh you mean when Russell takes the offense in the 2 minute drill, no that's Russell doing what he does best.

I have never been about the play calling when I am critical of Wilson's slow starts. For instance, I know that we kick when we win the toss, while other teams receive, so I expect us to have fewer possessions in the first quarter. No problem there.

My issue is purely with execution. Accuracy issues, not finding the open receiver, not making the right choice on option plays, holding onto the ball too long and taking too many sacks.

Regardless of the stats, just watch the tape and you'll see what I am talking about. QB ratings ignore when your QB back-peddles 20 yards and gets flagged for intentional grounding or when you always hand off the read option to the extent that the defense no longer respects it, or when you overlook a wide open receiver or under-throw a deep pass that should have been intercepted but somehow wasn't.

I get the philosophy of deferring the opening possession in favour of the 2nd half opening one. I get the "establish the run" mentality. I totally get the "don't turn it over - a loss is better than a pick" thing. I just with Wilson would execute the first half like he does in the second.

Using Bates as a reference point does not seem like the best idea. The one thing Carroll's play callers have in common is they are not very good. It usually takes half time for Carroll to straighten them out and get them focused on playing to our strengths, i.e. normally giving Lynch the ball, now it's about getting Graham the ball off play action.

Pete didn't make Lockette and Rawls drop first down passes, and he didn't make Russ skip passing to the short middle on third down so he could scramble for no gain on third down.

Some of the slow start was on the players.

Quote

Because the way Carroll is doing it has gotten us to back to back Super Bowls.
End quote


You do realize that us playing offense effectively only in the second halves of big games nearly cost us both trips to super bowls right?.

San Fran game.... Took a miracle fourth down free play heave

Green bay... Onsides kick recovery plus touchdown and crazy miraculous two point conversion.

I guarantee if we don't start ' starting' games at the kickoff, we will not repeat anything. This philosophy has run its course and the luck is running out.

With a healthy rodgers, lacy, and Adams, is there anyone in this thread who seriously believes we can afford to fall behind at all, regardless of '' letting them play their hand first''

The serious implication that this is what has worked and that it will continue to work is putrid and lazy, by both the coaching staff and the fanbase.

Playing from behind should never be the goal, let alone when our defense is built to put you on your heels and tee off.

How well did playing from behind work when Dallas came to town?. Or at st Louis for that matter?. If a team can sustain drives against us, like san diego did too, and kansas city, this philosophy disintegrates to moronic.

KiwiHawk":jorsym87 said:

I have never been about the play calling when I am critical of Wilson's slow starts. For instance, I know that we kick when we win the toss, while other teams receive, so I expect us to have fewer possessions in the first quarter. No problem there.

My issue is purely with execution. Accuracy issues, not finding the open receiver, not making the right choice on option plays, holding onto the ball too long and taking too many sacks.

Regardless of the stats, just watch the tape and you'll see what I am talking about. QB ratings ignore when your QB back-peddles 20 yards and gets flagged for intentional grounding or when you always hand off the read option to the extent that the defense no longer respects it, or when you overlook a wide open receiver or under-throw a deep pass that should have been intercepted but somehow wasn't.

I get the philosophy of deferring the opening possession in favour of the 2nd half opening one. I get the "establish the run" mentality. I totally get the "don't turn it over - a loss is better than a pick" thing. I just with Wilson would execute the first half like he does in the second.

Click to expand...

Good post and I couldn't agree more.

You can chart all you want, but you have to watch tape. Watching tape, Wilson isn't as sharp this year as he was previously. This isn't an attack on Wilson or necessarily his fault, as the OL contributes a lot to the issues as well. I have confidence Wilson watches tape and doesn't seem to have such an ego that he refuses to change what he can see is wrong (unlike Stafford, who refuses to work on his footwork).

Bevell doesn't utilize his personnel correctly (IMO) but he also isn't responsible for the mess they have with the OL. We passed on a 3rd and 1 this last game, and I was livid about it. Then, in the 3rd quarter, we ran on 3rd and 1 and lost 2 yards. The OL is terrible, and that affects a lot of things.

I don't think Pete knowingly uses less percentage plays to convert in 3rd downs. Winning forever means it can feed into boredom or being complacent. Players could without realizing play their best in the 4th quarter.The philosophy has caught on at Atlanta too, they have been coming from behind too.

kf3339":1v2w600k said:

Just curious but don't we have scouts that have the responsibility to do this research on upcoming opponents "BEFORE" we play them like every other team does to us every season? Why do we have to literally "WASTE" nearly the entire first half to figure out how the other team will play us on offense before we can game plan for them?

If that truly is PC's strategy, then that is just plain stupid.

Click to expand...

No its ugly but it works most of the time. Don't forget that Pete is a defensive coach. Defensive coaches love winning ugly. As long as his philosophy is winning games I don't expect Pete to change.