RW growth: The next phase

Was hearing comparisons between elite QBs and the ones that are aspiring to be. I think they were talking about Rodgers, Manning, Brady. So RW has many qualities from being a great team mate, leader, 1-0 and all of that which are very positive. He also has the scrambling ability where he can give defense fits, but the down side to that is, he can give WR's and Oline fits too, like not knowing where to create a pocket or where should a WR be when the QB is scrambling. In the long run, this is not very sustainable as the plays that are made become more plays that were not planned or meant to be. The more we go that direction, the more unpredictable it will be for us and for the opposing team, which puts us in a situation of slow starts and all of that. Eventually individual talent, and resolve with mental grit wins us games as it progresses. My intent on opening this thread is , what is the next chapter for RW for growing into the next level. How can he be the QB who improves everyone around him in the offense. Instead of taking his feet and running. When can he become a guy, where even an average WR, or a WR with talent, both excel around him. I want to purely focus on RW and not any other factors like Bevell, OC and stuff like that.

Here is some that come to my mind, I don't know if he needs to improve in all of this, but it is an interesting discussion to have.

1. Reading the defense
2. Pre snap adjustments
3. Throwing accuracy
4. Throwing in tight windows
5. Staying in pocket and letting the play develop
6. Red zone efficiency
7. Trusting his receivers
8. Clock management
9. Kill the Read option, opposing teams game planning better
10. Protecting the ball

seahawks08":1frt3pm7 said:

Was hearing comparisons between elite QBs and the ones that are aspiring to be. I think they were talking about Rodgers, Manning, Brady. So RW has many qualities from being a great team mate, leader, 1-0 and all of that which are very positive. He also have the scrambling ability where he can give defense fits but the down side is he can give WR's and Oline fits too, but not know where to create a pocket or where should a WR's be when the QB is scrambling. In the long run, this is not very sustainable as the plays that are made become more plays that were not planned or meant to be. The more we go that direction, the more unpredictable it will be for us and for the opposing team, which puts us in a situation of slow starts and all of that. Eventually individual talent, and resolve with mental grit wins us games as it progresses. My intent on opening this thread is , what is the next chapter for RW for growing into the next level. How can be the QB who improves everyone around him in the offense. Instead of taking his feet and running, when can he become a guy, where even an average WR, or a WR with talent, both excel in this. I want to purely focus on RW and not any other factors like Bevell, OC and stuff like that.

Here is some that come to my mind, I don't know if he needs to improve in all of this, but it is an interesting discussion to have.

1. Reading the defense
2. Pre snap adjustments
3. Throwing accuracy
4. Throwing in tight windows
5. Staying in pocket and letting the play develop
6. Red zone efficiency
7. Trusting his receivers
8. Clock management
9. Kill the Read option, opposing teams game planning better
10. Protecting the ball

Click to expand...

Regarding #9, I just don't see the logic there. It helps the running backs a ton when Russ keeps a few of those (if the defense learns from it's mistake and starts to set the edge on Russ).

Laloosh":bdcbczc5 said:

seahawks08":bdcbczc5 said:

Was hearing comparisons between elite QBs and the ones that are aspiring to be. I think they were talking about Rodgers, Manning, Brady. So RW has many qualities from being a great team mate, leader, 1-0 and all of that which are very positive. He also have the scrambling ability where he can give defense fits but the down side is he can give WR's and Oline fits too, but not know where to create a pocket or where should a WR's be when the QB is scrambling. In the long run, this is not very sustainable as the plays that are made become more plays that were not planned or meant to be. The more we go that direction, the more unpredictable it will be for us and for the opposing team, which puts us in a situation of slow starts and all of that. Eventually individual talent, and resolve with mental grit wins us games as it progresses. My intent on opening this thread is , what is the next chapter for RW for growing into the next level. How can be the QB who improves everyone around him in the offense. Instead of taking his feet and running, when can he become a guy, where even an average WR, or a WR with talent, both excel in this. I want to purely focus on RW and not any other factors like Bevell, OC and stuff like that.

Here is some that come to my mind, I don't know if he needs to improve in all of this, but it is an interesting discussion to have.

1. Reading the defense
2. Pre snap adjustments
3. Throwing accuracy
4. Throwing in tight windows
5. Staying in pocket and letting the play develop
6. Red zone efficiency
7. Trusting his receivers
8. Clock management
9. Kill the Read option, opposing teams game planning better
10. Protecting the ball

Click to expand...

Regarding #9, I just don't see the logic there. It helps the running backs a ton when Russ keeps a few of those (if the defense learns from it's mistake and starts to set the edge on Russ).

Click to expand...

#9 has become very predictable, he has been losing yards than gaining in the first 2 quarters. I think when the opposing defense is fresh, they are playing faster and closer to the line, challenging RW to throw more.

If he could just work on these 2 I think our offense would improve:

1. learn how to step up in the pocket. So many times I see ends coming around the edge that he could just step up to avoid but instead runs backwards for 10 yards.
2. Learn to use the middle of the field better. He misses so many wide open receivers in the middle of the field.

seahawks08":6cxca8lx said:

#9 has become very predictable, he has been losing yards than gaining in the first 2 quarters. I think when the opposing defense is fresh, they are playing faster and closer to the line, challenging RW to throw more.

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Six plays, 5 of which were for positive yards, the 6th being no gain (not a loss).

http://pfref.com/tiny/f8NHq

Some of those are bound to be scrambles rather than designed runs but the single no-gain play was an option left and he got caught.

Aside from that one play, he's gained positive yards every time, which can't be said for the RBs.

The read option is still viable because it either holds the backside DE in place so he can't chase down the RB... or, if he crashes down, RW runs for 10-15 yards.

edogg23":2mbp62sc said:

If he could just work on these 2 I think our offense would improve:

1. learn how to step up in the pocket. So many times I see ends coming around the edge that he could just step up to avoid but instead runs backwards for 10 yards.
2. Learn to use the middle of the field better. He misses so many wide open receivers in the middle of the field.

Click to expand...

This is a good perspective, I am wondering if this makes the QB position more risky to injuries. Feeling the pocket is important, but holding on to it too long could mean somebody hurting your knee.

Wilson's accuracy isn't a problem, except for the occasions when he throws too high. Every QB misses the occasional throw. And the read option is pretty important. There's only so much opposing teams can gameplan against Wilson's legs and Lynch's bullying. I would argue that the lack of Wilson keeping the read option in his first two games contributed to the losses.

Protecting the ball also isn't a problem. It's the primary reason he gets sacked so much - he's either getting greedy looking for the big play, or he just doesn't want to risk a pick. The Seahawks QB is amongst the most conservative in the league.

MontanaHawk05":2jrocwbf said:

he's either getting greedy looking for the big play, or he just doesn't want to risk a pick. The Seahawks QB is amongst the most conservative in the league.

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He just doesn't want to risk a pick is so true. Whenever he does attempt the occasional big play, I expect it to be a completion since he wouldn't attempt it unless someone's wide open.

"He also has the scrambling ability where he can give defense fits, but the down side to that is, he can give WR's and Oline fits too, like not knowing where to create a pocket or where should a WR be when the QB is scrambling. In the long run, this is not very sustainable as the plays that are made become more plays that were not planned or meant to be.."
In order to properly take part in your discussion, we would have to buy in to the above. ^
I don't.

trharder":97kdpcyd said:

"He also has the scrambling ability where he can give defense fits, but the down side to that is, he can give WR's and Oline fits too, like not knowing where to create a pocket or where should a WR be when the QB is scrambling. In the long run, this is not very sustainable as the plays that are made become more plays that were not planned or meant to be.."
In order to properly take part in your discussion, we would have to buy in to the above. ^
I don't.

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I agree. Fran Tarkenton says it can be done for an entire career. In fact, the more receivers work in that environment, the more they get to know what Wilson will be looking for when scrambling, and how to make that happen so that they get the ball.

Give guys like Richardson and Lockett a year or two and see what happens. If a defender has trouble covering Lockett on a double move, think what Lockett could do on a quintuple move.

The fact comparisons are being made to quite possibly the very best quarterbacks ever to play the game says a lot, I think. These quarterbacks being compared to Russell Wilson are locks to make first ballot Hall of Fame, and are easily in the GOAT discussion.

I think the biggest concern I have is pre-snap. He just doesn't seem to guess right often enough. He let Green Bay run a safety down late and he needed to get out of the play. He didn't diagnose a blitz correctly on the pic to Marshawn and slid our line the wrong way, leaving a free blitzer. I think part of it is that he is stubborn. If there is a play he likes, he's not going to check out, even if he's outnumbered. Part of it is that he believes he can dance his way out. We don't know for certain how much control he has but I'm fairly sure he can simply check-out whenever he has to. I've seen some improvement in diagnosing blitzes, but there are still times where he just has to get rid of the ball, and should know this pre-snap, but still doesn't get rid of it.

The problem with Wilson is he does not produce enough to even be included in the elite QB conversation.

And it is not that he is not capable, he is just not consistent. You cannot rely on him to produce when the rest of the guys are not doing as well - and that is the hallmark of an elite QB. By that standard, he is not even a great QB though he is capable of greatness, and more interestingly WAS a great QB not that long ago.

That might be him being overly conservative, but the odd part is that for all the conservative stuff he is still throwing interceptions and still getting sacked. Both are negative plays and we aren't getting a whole lot of positive stuff to offset it. He isn't scoring TDs. And he is not converting opportunities, for example Dion Bailey tripping gets blamed for the loss to STL but we had the ball at the end with a chance to drive & score in OT. We just didn't.

Which leads to the question, is the loss of an effective Lynch so significant to the success of Wilson that he is almost ineffective without him? I don't think so, because I have seen Wilson take over games when Lynch was doing very little (like that Atlanta game that was almost his coming out party) or Chicago at the end. And sure enough, in the 2 min drills he seems much more capable of marching down the field - but right now he is not a consistent threat or an elite producer. So that production in this specific instances might indicate he is capable but just on a leash for some reason.

Even so, Wilson started out doing things no rookie QB could do and projected out to a path that few QBs could match. And he does things, like throw on the run with accuracy, better than almost any QB in the league. However this year, he is not meeting the standards he set before. I don't know if that is the line, the lack of Lynch or just other distractions.

Either way, until he starts producing consistent results again - there is no way you can put him in any kind of elite category based on his production NOW. His track record? Stellar. His recent production? Inconsistent, some great moments and some really forgettable ones.

Russell Wilson growth:

He's 26 probably not going to grow any

TwistedHusky":32aukgpe said:

The problem with Wilson is he does not produce enough to even be included in the elite QB conversation.

And it is not that he is not capable, he is just not consistent. You cannot rely on him to produce when the rest of the guys are not doing as well - and that is the hallmark of an elite QB. By that standard, he is not even a great QB though he is capable of greatness, and more interestingly WAS a great QB not that long ago.

That might be him being overly conservative, but the odd part is that for all the conservative stuff he is still throwing interceptions and still getting sacked. Both are negative plays and we aren't getting a whole lot of positive stuff to offset it. He isn't scoring TDs. And he is not converting opportunities, for example Dion Bailey tripping gets blamed for the loss to STL but we had the ball at the end with a chance to drive & score in OT. We just didn't.

Which leads to the question, is the loss of an effective Lynch so significant to the success of Wilson that he is almost ineffective without him? I don't think so, because I have seen Wilson take over games when Lynch was doing very little (like that Atlanta game that was almost his coming out party) or Chicago at the end. And sure enough, in the 2 min drills he seems much more capable of marching down the field - but right now he is not a consistent threat or an elite producer. So that production in this specific instances might indicate he is capable but just on a leash for some reason.

Even so, Wilson started out doing things no rookie QB could do and projected out to a path that few QBs could match. And he does things, like throw on the run with accuracy, better than almost any QB in the league. However this year, he is not meeting the standards he set before. I don't know if that is the line, the lack of Lynch or just other distractions.

Either way, until he starts producing consistent results again - there is no way you can put him in any kind of elite category based on his production NOW. His track record? Stellar. His recent production? Inconsistent, some great moments and some really forgettable ones.

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I really think people really underestimate the value of a good offensive line. yes the offense has been playing poorly and russell does derseve part of the blame. However, his offensive line is abysmall. plays can't develop at all from the pocket.
Our offensive line is likely to derail our superbowl aspirations if they play this poorly for the rest of the year. I can't remember ever watching a team go deep in the playoff and win a superbowl with a line as atroucious as ours.

TwistedHusky":2yr14m67 said:

The problem with Wilson is he does not produce enough to even be included in the elite QB conversation.

And it is not that he is not capable, he is just not consistent. You cannot rely on him to produce when the rest of the guys are not doing as well - and that is the hallmark of an elite QB. By that standard, he is not even a great QB though he is capable of greatness, and more interestingly WAS a great QB not that long ago.

That might be him being overly conservative, but the odd part is that for all the conservative stuff he is still throwing interceptions and still getting sacked. Both are negative plays and we aren't getting a whole lot of positive stuff to offset it. He isn't scoring TDs. And he is not converting opportunities, for example Dion Bailey tripping gets blamed for the loss to STL but we had the ball at the end with a chance to drive & score in OT. We just didn't.

Which leads to the question, is the loss of an effective Lynch so significant to the success of Wilson that he is almost ineffective without him? I don't think so, because I have seen Wilson take over games when Lynch was doing very little (like that Atlanta game that was almost his coming out party) or Chicago at the end. And sure enough, in the 2 min drills he seems much more capable of marching down the field - but right now he is not a consistent threat or an elite producer. So that production in this specific instances might indicate he is capable but just on a leash for some reason.

Even so, Wilson started out doing things no rookie QB could do and projected out to a path that few QBs could match. And he does things, like throw on the run with accuracy, better than almost any QB in the league. However this year, he is not meeting the standards he set before. I don't know if that is the line, the lack of Lynch or just other distractions.

Either way, until he starts producing consistent results again - there is no way you can put him in any kind of elite category based on his production NOW. His track record? Stellar. His recent production? Inconsistent, some great moments and some really forgettable ones.

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I like this post. My personal view is that Russ is trying to do what the coaches have asked of him. I think the short bubble screens and quick hit stuff are what Bevell wants to get to. Look at the average distance of throws from the first two games, and the first half of the bears game. How many times did he actually throw past 5 yards? I remember it was very similar at the start of last season with Percy.
We have to remember this Oline is playing like crap, slightly more crappy than the oline of the last few years. Its not like the oline sucking is some new development. That's all Russ has known since he came here.

God I hope its not Russ's hits and sacks getting to him physically. You don't as a qb take that many sacks and play at really high levels for long. I prefer to think its the play calling, and offensive strategy.

I hope he is either given the ability to call audible at the line, or learns what plays to choose to beat the D, but the O has to get better at making the D suffer for overloading, or dropping men into coverage.

Russell Wilson is a good player, and playmaker but he is rough as a passer. I've noticed that his ball placement is not always there, especially on certain routes. Of course, we all know that he is not very good at managing the pocket. Last game, two of the sacks could be directly attributed to Wilson himself. The first one was him backpedaling, and then realizing "oh maybe I should step up into the pocket". This led to Wilson running himself right into a defender. If this were somebody such as Brady, or Manning it would've been a non-issue. They would've stepped up in the pocket and continued to survey the field. The second sack that can be directly attributed to him was when he actually had a good pocket. He's sitting in the pocket, and he decides to try to take off up the middle of the field. The end result is a sack, and loss of yardage.

The line is bad this year, but Wilson needs to help them out more. I contend that even if Wilson had a good line, he would still be taking a lot of sacks due to his play style. I hope that he can find a balance similar to what Ben Roethlisberger did. Yes, he can extend the play, but he also has an internal timer in his head that tells him "okay now it's time to get rid of the ball" That is not something I see with Wilson.

I also think he needs to do better recognizing the blitz. He can beat free rushers with his legs, however many times they also result in a negative play. I remember this is something that Jon Gruden criticized him on during his sit down with him before draft day. I still see Wilson struggling with the very same things that Gruden mentioned, the playcalling doesn't help either. I do not know how much leeway he has to change the play, but running a slow developing play action into a blitz does nothing to help Wilson.

The last thing I want to mention is hesitation to throw to receivers unless they are open by two steps. This does nothing for our offense, I'm not asking him to do the famous Rex Grossman F IT I'M GOING DEEP, and promptly throw it into triple coverage. I just want him to take advantage of the windows that are there. I see that Wilson identifies many of our open receivers, it's just a question of "are they open enough for him".

If Wilson masters the things I mention above he will be on a level that is on par with Rodgers in my opinion. I also do not think that Wilson is getting the tutelage that he needs from our QB coach, Bevell, and Carroll. I'm also questioning whether Carroll, and Bevell are trying to pound a square peg in a round hole with the way the offense is structured. I do not think the structure of this offense is conducive to Wilson's growth as a passer.

Wilson is already elite, he just needs to improve pocket passing . Why do ppl always critisize this guy? he gets the job done and is a playmaker. lots ofteams dont even have a QB half as good as him. And hes still only played 3 seasons he will get better.

Tical21":3smpdt9r said:

I think the biggest concern I have is pre-snap. He just doesn't seem to guess right often enough. He let Green Bay run a safety down late and he needed to get out of the play. He didn't diagnose a blitz correctly on the pic to Marshawn and slid our line the wrong way, leaving a free blitzer. I think part of it is that he is stubborn. If there is a play he likes, he's not going to check out, even if he's outnumbered. Part of it is that he believes he can dance his way out. We don't know for certain how much control he has but I'm fairly sure he can simply check-out whenever he has to. I've seen some improvement in diagnosing blitzes, but there are still times where he just has to get rid of the ball, and should know this pre-snap, but still doesn't get rid of it.

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Good post, and it's my biggest issue with our offense to date as well.

There are too many negative pays we're giving up by running straight into run blitzes, not recognizing blitzes, and misdiagnosting plays. A lot of it is on the OL, but not all of it. With our OL being as green as they are, we can't afford to take negative plays needlessly and get behind the sticks.

That begs the questions: is it Russell not making adjustments, or is it Bevell's play calling ? How much leeway/control is Wilson actually given ? That's what we really need to know to make an educated guess.

We do know that Wilson is responsible for the protection calls, and he's not always getting it right. I'm not overly worried about this, as it wasn't his responsibility before so there's going to be growth here. But he's missing some stuff, as evidenced by him running directly into an outside rusher when there was a clean pocket.

Also, I've noticed he's throwing behind his guys on crossing routes consistently. It might be overly picky, but when you're getting paid 22 million a year, you better be mastering the smaller things. He doesn't give our WRs a chance to get any YAC. He seems to have forgotten how to throw a back shoulder fade. I've seen him do it before, but now when he throws to Graham, he always seems to throw to the side that the defender is on. He also either overthrows Graham, or under throws it and lets the defender make a play.

I think we'd see a lot more production if he could clean up the pre snap stuff and gain some accuracy.