Russ holding the ball too long

Greenhell

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It's apparent that Russ holding on to the ball too long is impacting this offense but is this something he did while in college too or Has PC put so much into not making any mistakes with the ball turned into an anxiety Russ now has??? Is this a fear Russ has now or what?

Not having followed or watched much of his college highlights is the holding on to the ball too long also been a part of his game in college? Seems unlikely.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Maybe is someone actually blocked for him once in awhile it would be less of a problem. Imagine that, blocking for your QB.
 

lobohawk

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He was never known for holding the ball too long. Just for being a smart QB who could be a playmaker when needed.
 

Ozzy

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He might hold the ball too long a couple of times a game. Every QB does that from time to time. The offense is being held back by the line, Wilson plays like he's always played and the offense has been very, very good in the past. This isn't a Wilson problem.
 

mrt144

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Greenhell":1nzj2tzd said:
It's apparent that Russ holding on to the ball too long is impacting this offense but is this something he did while in college too or Has PC put so much into not making any mistakes with the ball turned into an anxiety Russ now has??? Is this a fear Russ has now or what?

Not having followed or watched much of his college highlights is the holding on to the ball too long also been a part of his game in college? Seems unlikely.

There are a lot of moving parts to the success of a pass play and yes, I am sort of an apologist for Wilson because in the hierarchy of what is negative affecting plays it's maybe 3rd or 4th

Parts of success:

Blocking - gives time to make reads and have best physical form for execution
Route Scheme - Are the receivers running routes that allow separation or go to holes in the zone so it's a higher percentage of success than throwing into coverage and getting the WR to make the play
Receiving Personnel - Do we have receivers who know how to find space or put moves on defenders covering them to get open?
Snap - Duh
QB Read - Is Wilson finding the right guy to throw to?
QB Execution - Is Wilson's form and execution putting his receivers in a position to make the catch.
Receiver Execution - Are the receivers making plays when the ball is thrown to them?

So there's a lot of moving parts here and some I missed or some that can be wrapped into others but the point is...

Wilson is playing very risk adverse passing football. A large part of this is on Wilson but it's hard to believe that PC and DB are telling RW to open it up and take more passing risks and he's just not doing it.

The Hawks are doing a poor job consistently on all fronts related to pass plays. Sometimes it's RW that holds the ball too long but as a % of why plays go to crap it's not even close. It's not even top 3.

One of the most awful aspects of being a fan of a specific team and just focusing on that team is you instantly elevate your nit picking to much higher levels than other teams. Every QB misses the open guy or holds it too long on some % of their plays when all the elements align to allow success but since we aren't hyper focused on what Matt Ryan or Ryan Mallett is doing, RWs indecisiveness seems so much worse.

And it should go without saying we all want RW to play the best he can and improve where he can, it's just hard to see how that happens when there are clear deficiencies that interrupt that progress.

We also saw him throw that beauty of a pass to ADB. So it's not like he's incapable.
 

lukerguy

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"too long" is the 1.5 seconds he gets per snap before there's someone in his face or running him down.

Does anyone remember Tom Brady early last year? His oline was in shambles and people were questioning if maybe it was time to start Garapollo.. Fast forward, he's the undesputed best QB in the league through the last 10 games of last year and the first 3 of this year.. Do you think he remembered to throw the ball on time? No, he went from getting poor protection, to elite level protection. If we can figure this out on the line, Russ will ball out soon.
 

mrt144

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lukerguy":3qc27w9s said:
"too long" is the 1.5 seconds he gets per snap before there's someone in his face or running him down.

Does anyone remember Tom Brady early last year? His oline was in shambles and people were questioning if maybe it was time to start Garapollo.. Fast forward, he's the undesputed best QB in the league through the last 10 games of last year and the first 3 of this year.. Do you think he remembered to throw the ball on time? No, he went from getting poor protection, to elite level protection. If we can figure this out on the line, Russ will ball out soon.

I think it's indisputable that NE has the coaching to correct things relatively quickly and they have the personnel at WR and TE along with route scheme that helps them get open.

There's no shame in admitting the Pats do some things better than anyone else in the league.
 

jblaze

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Yeah I noticed that too. RW does have the protection calls this year due to Nowak's inexperience and there were several plays last Monday where he didn't see the CB blitz or backside LB blitz and it caused issues. However, there were also instances where they did call out the blitzer due to recognition from a hard count and they still couldn't block him.

Regarding holding onto the ball too long. with our simplified (rudimentary) pass game, often times the WR's are covered so RW scrambles to buy time. I don't think this is a terrible thing because RW is whodini and excels after a play breaks down but we don't really need to be doing it every play.

I think he's doing what he has to on every play to be successful. I trust RW's judgment. He's earned that.
 

purpleneer

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lukerguy":4r4wq5ul said:
"too long" is the 1.5 seconds he gets per snap before there's someone in his face or running him down.

Does anyone remember Tom Brady early last year? His oline was in shambles and people were questioning if maybe it was time to start Garapollo.. Fast forward, he's the undesputed best QB in the league through the last 10 games of last year and the first 3 of this year.. Do you think he remembered to throw the ball on time? No, he went from getting poor protection, to elite level protection. If we can figure this out on the line, Russ will ball out soon.
I have to disagree with that "undisputed" part. There's still quite a few who would go with Rodgers. Also, it absolutely is largely due to getting the ball out quickly, and while their protection has improved it's not elite and he's not chilling back there with loads of time to survey the field. His pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing is where he is the best and blows Russell away. Their OC also understands the value of having quickly developing routes and how to use one of the best TE weapons the league has ever seen.
 

lobohawk

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purpleneer":3e2b54yc said:
lukerguy":3e2b54yc said:
"too long" is the 1.5 seconds he gets per snap before there's someone in his face or running him down.

Does anyone remember Tom Brady early last year? His oline was in shambles and people were questioning if maybe it was time to start Garapollo.. Fast forward, he's the undesputed best QB in the league through the last 10 games of last year and the first 3 of this year.. Do you think he remembered to throw the ball on time? No, he went from getting poor protection, to elite level protection. If we can figure this out on the line, Russ will ball out soon.

I have to disagree with that "undisputed" part. There's still quite a few who would go with Rodgers. Also, it absolutely is largely due to getting the ball out quickly, and while their protection has improved it's not elite and he's not chilling back there with loads of time to survey the field. His pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing is where he is the best and blows Russell away. Their OC also understands the value of having quickly developing routes and how to use one of the best TE weapons the league has ever seen.


Comparing Wilson to Brady on this point is silly, cause Brady has been in the league for 15 years.
I'm sure year 4 Brady would get blown away by year 15 Brady on pre snap reads.
 

kf3339

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lukerguy":1wzirmsq said:
"too long" is the 1.5 seconds he gets per snap before there's someone in his face or running him down.

Does anyone remember Tom Brady early last year? His oline was in shambles and people were questioning if maybe it was time to start Garapollo.. Fast forward, he's the undesputed best QB in the league through the last 10 games of last year and the first 3 of this year.. Do you think he remembered to throw the ball on time? No, he went from getting poor protection, to elite level protection. If we can figure this out on the line, Russ will ball out soon.

But Brady gets the ball out fast even with a crap for an O-Line. That is a big difference to what we see with Wilson.
 

Tical21

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Russell holds onto the ball too long. I don't think there is any question about his. The only question is how much of it is his fault. This is a multi-pronged question.

For a team with poor protection, you would think that the answer would be to get rid of the ball quickly, right? We have two problems with this. First, we don't have receivers that consistently "win" off the ball. A slant is a trust throw. You make the determination to throw a slant pre-snap. You trust your receiver to win his route, and you're going to throw the ball regardless. You don't have time to see if he won first, then throw later. I don't think Russell trusts his guys to win a slant. He started to a little bit with Golden, and that even burnt him a few times.

The second problem, is that if a team knows you're going to try to get rid of it early to compensate for protection issues, they're going to instruct their defenders to take away the short stuff, right? So you've got a slant route, to a receiver who has a hard time getting separation on a slant route, with a defender that is going to jump the route. Not a good combination. I will also concede, that there are far too may times where the receiver DOES win his route, but Russell chooses not to throw the football. It can't happen. My personal theory is that he is having trouble diagnosing defenses pre-snap, but it would take someone much smarter than me to know that for sure. If that happens a lot, and is the major contributing factor for Russell holding onto the ball too long, I think we just shot ourselves in the foot by paying him.

So, if a team is pressuring, and jumping shorter routes, you've got to kill them with the fade and the back-shoulder. Fade if the receiver gets off the ball and is even with or past the defender at the time Russell needs to get rid of it, and back shoulder if he isn't. However, we don't really excel at either of these. So we're left with two options. Run the ball into defense that has more people in the box than we have to block, or watch Russell go into his Tarkenton routine.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of watching it. Football is supposed to be entertaining at the pro level. Russell is in his fourth year, and we've still yet to even get the basics right. I know, I'm a relic. I like a pretty, rhythmic offense. I like an offense that diagnoses where to throw the ball, where the winning matchup is going to be, and complete the darn pass. I should be able to notice by now that however unconventional, we win games. I just can't, however, get myself to a point where I can see it being sustainable.
 

Hawkpower

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lobohawk":3dykko0k said:
purpleneer":3dykko0k said:
lukerguy":3dykko0k said:
"too long" is the 1.5 seconds he gets per snap before there's someone in his face or running him down.

Does anyone remember Tom Brady early last year? His oline was in shambles and people were questioning if maybe it was time to start Garapollo.. Fast forward, he's the undesputed best QB in the league through the last 10 games of last year and the first 3 of this year.. Do you think he remembered to throw the ball on time? No, he went from getting poor protection, to elite level protection. If we can figure this out on the line, Russ will ball out soon.

I have to disagree with that "undisputed" part. There's still quite a few who would go with Rodgers. Also, it absolutely is largely due to getting the ball out quickly, and while their protection has improved it's not elite and he's not chilling back there with loads of time to survey the field. His pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing is where he is the best and blows Russell away. Their OC also understands the value of having quickly developing routes and how to use one of the best TE weapons the league has ever seen.


Comparing Wilson to Brady on this point is silly, cause Brady has been in the league for 15 years.
I'm sure year 4 Brady would get blown away by year 15 Brady on pre snap reads.



He doesn't have to be as good as Brady at pre-reads and getting the ball out.

Just better than he is now.

Plenty of elite QB's negate poor lines by doing this. Making this stride in his game will help to elevate him to elite status as well.
 

kf3339

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Greenhell":34gyzgir said:
It's apparent that Russ holding on to the ball too long is impacting this offense but is this something he did while in college too or Has PC put so much into not making any mistakes with the ball turned into an anxiety Russ now has??? Is this a fear Russ has now or what?

Not having followed or watched much of his college highlights is the holding on to the ball too long also been a part of his game in college? Seems unlikely.

The few games I remember of Wilson in college he seemed to have a pretty good speed with his decision making and getting his throws out. At least that is what I saw when he was at Wisconsin.

As for with the Hawks, your point about PC pounding him on making mistakes I think is very relevant. I think it has made RW timid at times, and that slight delay is the difference between getting pressured and having to run, or taking a sack. Yes our line is crap, but he isn't helping the situation at all.

RW needs to stop worrying about things and play aggressive. If he throws a pick so what. If PC doesn't like it tell him to go away. He is the leader of the team and needs to act like it. He is not a rookie any more.
 

MD5eahawks

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HommyHawk":2ki6aebr said:
Isn't Russ also making the line calls this year?

Yes. He was given the duty of calling the protection this year. I'm not sure if this is something completely new to him. Maybe he did it in college. Either way it seems he is progressing on the slow side with it. I feel this is probably more of the reason than most anything else. Of course, throw in a patchwork experimental O-line and you have yourself a fan forum frenzy of topics.
 

mikeak

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Remember that numbers on how long a qb holds the ball are significantly affected by RWs ability to run around with the ball.

If he has a 7 second play that means that his average on 20 passes went up from 4 secs to 4.15 secs. So this happens 2-3 times per game meaning that the average that RW holds the ball is basically inflated with half a second per game.

That kind of stat would move him from holding the ball the longest (see link below) to top of the list

2012 data to prove that point

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... -to-throw/

If you look down at the second table in that link RW gets sacked the quickest
 

Vesuve

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Greenhell":pdjwd8lf said:
It's apparent that Russ holding on to the ball too long is impacting this offense....

Is it Russ's judgement or that receivers are tightly covered?
 

MD5eahawks

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mikeak":1g2vqnom said:
If you look down at the second table in that link RW gets sacked the quickest

I think the second table indicates the opposite. He takes the longest to sack.
 

mrt144

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Vesuve":1csowq3l said:
Greenhell":1csowq3l said:
It's apparent that Russ holding on to the ball too long is impacting this offense....

Is it Russ's judgement or that receivers are tightly covered?

Both. In the All-22 thread people chided RW for missing a wide open Baldwin until someone pointed out that Baldwin isn't even looking at RW while he's open - he's running a route that would necessitate different coverage to work (2 safeties went back deep to cover) or he needs to find a hole in the zone and sit there.

There was also the 3rd and 5 on the first drive where the entirety of the Seahawks runs ins or outs to the right and it's a roll out to the right but there is nobody open in Man to Man coverage - partially because the play call is insipid. A bad snap combined with a blitz off the edge dooms the play but nobody is even open. RW is playing very risk adverse passing football and I don't think that's entirely on him.

On the other hand, there's no shame in throwing the ball away instead of taking the sack.
 
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