Question about the blown coverage last game

Somebody with more knowledge than me (a park bench should do!): how does the miscommunication happen? A defensive player has a headset in his helmet right? So was it a problem of getting the call communicated from that person to the rest of the team or is it a call sent in from the sideline via hand signals that everybody is supposed to see and half the defense screwed it up? Or something else entirely?

Sherman's excuse was that he thought it was a different coverage call than Earl.

Who's fault is that? It's either Sherman, Earl's or Kris Richard's for not getting the call in the game in time to make sure everyone's on the same page.

If this was a one time fluke thing? I'm OK with that, but it's obvious after we've now seen TE's running super easy to cover seam routes over and over the past six games with the same miscommunication errors that this is a systemic communication problem that's not getting fixed.

IMO that's on Kris Richard's and Pete. Jesus, they're BOTH supposed DB coach geniuses. So what's the problem?

They communicate the play both offense and defense by radio signal to the headset of the team captain on the field. They ALSO communicate it by hand signals to the players so if they dont make it to the huddle as defense sometimes does not, they get the same signal.

That being said. When one player dishes off an offensive player to another defender, and that defender does the same thing to the first defender, there is chaos. That is where the miscommunication came about I think. I could look at the play on dvd, but am too lazy to see if there was another Wide Receiver out in the area of Richard Sherman. Either he or Thomas should have taken the Tite End and then there would be a defender which could have interrupted that easy play. I think that is what you are looking for. If not, I shall defer to those even more knowledgeable than myself.
Go Hawks.

Seahawkfan80":19y6kxhc said:

That being said. When one player dishes off an offensive player to another defender, and that defender does the same thing to the first defender, there is chaos. That is where the miscommunication came about I think. I could look at the play on dvd, but am too lazy to see if there was another Wide Receiver out in the area of Richard Sherman. Either he or Thomas should have taken the Tite End and then there would be a defender which could have interrupted that easy play. I think that is what you are looking for. If not, I shall defer to those even more knowledgeable than myself.
Go Hawks.

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What pissed me off is the Panther's have GARBAGE receivers, literally the worst receiver core in the entire NFC without Benjamin.

So even if Sherman and Earl were confused.............JUST ASSUME IT'S GOING TO THE ONE GUY WHO'S BEEN MAKING PLAYS ON YOUR ASSES ALL GAME IN OLSEN. FEEL FREE TO SLIDE OVER AND COVER HIm, JESUS CHRIST!

Here is what actually happened from the D-Coordiantor's mouth:

Specifically, Kris Richard indicated that the issue was that not every player huddled up to hear the call from middle linebacker K.J. Wright, who had gotten the correct call and passed that on in the huddle.

Some of the players in the secondary — notably safeties Earl Thomas and Kam Chancellor — did not get the correct call and played a different coverage, leading to Carolina tight end Greg Olsen being left wide open.

Calls are also relayed from the sideline. Richard implied that had everyone gone to the huddle they would have gotten the correct call.

“Get to the huddle,’’ he said, when asked what needs to happen to prevent a similar misunderstanding in the future. “We get to the huddle, we get our call from to the MIKE linebacker, we give ourselves a good chance to compete.’’

Asked if everyone huddled up, Richard said “it didn’t seem like it.’’

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KJ got the play call. Sherman saw them signal the call from the sideline. For whatever reason, Earl and Kam played the wrong coverage. In our defense, it's usually on the MIKE to relay the call to the safeties. For whatever reason, that didn't happen on this play, and Earl also didn't pick up the call from the sideline.

HawkGA":6kgtrpww said:

Somebody with more knowledge than me (a park bench should do!): how does the miscommunication happen? A defensive player has a headset in his helmet right? So was it a problem of getting the call communicated from that person to the rest of the team or is it a call sent in from the sideline via hand signals that everybody is supposed to see and half the defense screwed it up? Or something else entirely?

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Two players on the defense have radios in their helmets, but the rule is that only one of them can be on the field at a time. Generally speaking, the middle linebacker picks up hand signals from the sideline and relays the formation call to the other players.

On this particular play, the defense lined up in our typical 'Cover 3'. Shortly before the ball was snapped, Sherman saw the signal coming in from the sideline to change to 'LA coverage', signified by holding up an L. There wasn't enough time to confirm the other players saw the signal before the ball was snapped, so Sherman carried out his assignment in 'LA coverage', while Earl and Kam stayed in 'Cover 3'.

The difference:

Cover 3 - Sherman has the deep third of the field on his side. Thomas has the middle deep third.

LA Coverage - Sherman covers the flat on his side. Thomas covers over the top.

See the problem? Sherman picked up the late call to switch to LA and "correctly" played the flat. Thomas didn't see the call change and stayed in Cover 3, "correctly" covering his middle third in that formation. Neither guy played their assignment wrong, but only one saw the late coverage switch from the sideline, leaving the deep third on Sherman's side uncovered, which just happened to be where Carolina ran their best receiving target on that play.

And now I'm sad again...

Moral of the story? Don't send in signals to change the defense late when the play clock is winding down.

Ironically, cover 2 would have been the perfect defense to call there and would have put Earl in perfect position to make the play. I had griped about being in cover 3 anywhere near the 10 yard line against Cinci because you're essentially wasting an extra defender deep when you're only worried about 20 yards of depth and telling one of the safeties to stay in a short zone and pass off the seam route to a deep defender (the Eifert TDs). Cover 3 is just stupid from about the 12 yard line or lower.

Supposedly the cover 2 call came in from the sideline late. That's on Richards.

As it was, Sherm was definitely in a cover 2 and dropped off. Earl was definitely in a cover 3 playing a short zone where Kam was running deep middle so Earl dropped off. In a cover 2 that's Earl's man. In a cover 3 that's Sherm's man. To me, there is no doubt that each of those players are telling the truth.

I really think this is lesser about the players and more so has to do with a rookie DC. These play call decisions need to be crisp and clear and called without hesitation. So far that is not the case. He's a rook.

The MLB is micd and is supposed to signal the rest of the defense. earl thomas said some of the players didnt hear KJ wright. (sherman)

Do we know who sent in the late call to LA? Seems like that would be a Richard responsibility. Seems *odd* that he wouldn't mention that . . . .

Sounds like multiple parties messed up on the communication.

The only blame I can hand out here is that if anyone on the Seahawks was aware of the confusion they should have had the presence of mind to call a timeout immediately. Seattle had all 3 timeouts and didn't have enough time left on the clock to need them for a late 4th quarter score.

I kinda wish we didn't know about the blown communication because it just makes the hand-wringing even worse.

That's a great explanation of what happened. It sounds like it's the rook DC is still getting his proceedure dialed in. I hope he gets it together at some point--our defense sucks. But if it was good again, he'd just get a HC job. i just looked at the standings--the NFC all has crappy records this year. The Hawks are still well positioned to get into the playoffs, if not win the div. Homefield overall is probably out, as the two top seeds are teams we lost to, so we lose the head-to-head.

Sgt. Largent":2re8uthq said:

Sherman's excuse was that he thought it was a different coverage call than Earl.

Who's fault is that? It's either Sherman, Earl's or Kris Richard's for not getting the call in the game in time to make sure everyone's on the same page.

If this was a one time fluke thing? I'm OK with that, but it's obvious after we've now seen TE's running super easy to cover seam routes over and over the past six games with the same miscommunication errors that this is a systemic communication problem that's not getting fixed.

IMO that's on Kris Richard's and Pete. Jesus, they're BOTH supposed DB coach geniuses. So what's the problem?

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That's the problem... Richard is a DB Coach... A DB coach's philosophy revolves around coverages and not the defensive front, so they have a propensity to mix up coverages more vs. a DL coach like Quinn or Bradley, who are more familiar with mixing up things on the front and not messing with different coverages too much. Richard needs to focus on better utilizing the front and stick to calling the bread and butter in coverage.

I just wish he had called a few more corner or lb blitzes on the last couple drives as they were starting to move on us
We used to wear teams out in the 4th by running on em till they were just too gassed and now we wre the ones gassed so i'm as frustrated by the play calling like this every year with pete but as always they seem to go to the run later in the year and it works for us even if we don]t get any points in the first half so here we go ladys , time to strap in as the ride's just getting going

firebee":b37ef05b said:

Sgt. Largent":b37ef05b said:

Sherman's excuse was that he thought it was a different coverage call than Earl.

Who's fault is that? It's either Sherman, Earl's or Kris Richard's for not getting the call in the game in time to make sure everyone's on the same page.

If this was a one time fluke thing? I'm OK with that, but it's obvious after we've now seen TE's running super easy to cover seam routes over and over the past six games with the same miscommunication errors that this is a systemic communication problem that's not getting fixed.

IMO that's on Kris Richard's and Pete. Jesus, they're BOTH supposed DB coach geniuses. So what's the problem?

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That's the problem... Richard is a DB Coach... A DB coach's philosophy revolves around coverages and not the defensive front, so they have a propensity to mix up coverages more vs. a DL coach like Quinn or Bradley, who are more familiar with mixing up things on the front and not messing with different coverages too much. Richard needs to focus on better utilizing the front and stick to calling the bread and butter in coverage.

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But that's contradictory, BECAUSE Richard is a veteran DB coach, that's the last personnel group that should be having problems. Yet it's suspect #1 in the "miscommunication" issues that's plaguing the defense right now.

In fact I'd say the D-line is playing the best of ALL the units, on either side of the ball.

vin.couve12":1folapgi said:

Ironically, cover 2 would have been the perfect defense to call there and would have put Earl in perfect position to make the play. I had griped about being in cover 3 anywhere near the 10 yard line against Cinci because you're essentially wasting an extra defender deep when you're only worried about 20 yards of depth and telling one of the safeties to stay in a short zone and pass off the seam route to a deep defender (the Eifert TDs). Cover 3 is just stupid from about the 12 yard line or lower.

Supposedly the cover 2 call came in from the sideline late. That's on Richards.

As it was, Sherm was definitely in a cover 2 and dropped off. Earl was definitely in a cover 3 playing a short zone where Kam was running deep middle so Earl dropped off. In a cover 2 that's Earl's man. In a cover 3 that's Sherm's man. To me, there is no doubt that each of those players are telling the truth.

I really think this is lesser about the players and more so has to do with a rookie DC. These play call decisions need to be crisp and clear and called without hesitation. So far that is not the case. He's a rook.

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That's a great point(s). I rewatched it a couple of times and there was a receiver swinging out from the offensive line and Richard took him while letting Olsen go.

But we should have done the same thing we did when Anquan Bolden went off. Put Richard on him. And put him on AJ while assigning Kam to Eifert. I think this would have won us both games because it would have shut down the one thing that has been kicking our asses, Tight Ends.

ivotuk":2tlp1xd4 said:

vin.couve12":2tlp1xd4 said:

Ironically, cover 2 would have been the perfect defense to call there and would have put Earl in perfect position to make the play. I had griped about being in cover 3 anywhere near the 10 yard line against Cinci because you're essentially wasting an extra defender deep when you're only worried about 20 yards of depth and telling one of the safeties to stay in a short zone and pass off the seam route to a deep defender (the Eifert TDs). Cover 3 is just stupid from about the 12 yard line or lower.

Supposedly the cover 2 call came in from the sideline late. That's on Richards.

As it was, Sherm was definitely in a cover 2 and dropped off. Earl was definitely in a cover 3 playing a short zone where Kam was running deep middle so Earl dropped off. In a cover 2 that's Earl's man. In a cover 3 that's Sherm's man. To me, there is no doubt that each of those players are telling the truth.

I really think this is lesser about the players and more so has to do with a rookie DC. These play call decisions need to be crisp and clear and called without hesitation. So far that is not the case. He's a rook.

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That's a great point(s). I rewatched it a couple of times and there was a receiver swinging out from the offensive line and Richard took him while letting Olsen go.

But we should have done the same thing we did when Anquan Bolden went off. Put Richard on him. And put him on AJ while assigning Kam to Eifert. I think this would have won us both games because it would have shut down the one thing that has been kicking our asses, Tight Ends.

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Cover 2 would have been the perfect call for both Eifert TDs and the Olson TD. They're all basically the same play.

We absolutely need to get out of cover 3 and into cover 2 from the 12 yard line or inside of it. It's ridiculous. I went over this last week and it's just plain profound that we (Richards) still just doesn't get it. Maybe he tried, but it sounds like the call came in late. Sherman said that the call came in from the sideline. That's not KJ.

Posts from last week regarding the two Eifert TDs.

vin.couve12":2ga42omg said:

I had seen that, but regardless, I was wondering why we were in a cover 3 that deep in the redzone. Some of you may have seen my whole deal about cover 3 concepts, but I'm only a fan of it from about the 15 yard like to the the other 15. Once you get close to the 10, deeper in the red zone, you spacing is such that you don't need to worry about the deep ball as much. Basically a cover 2 variant is best suited there because your in much more confined spaces. If you really want to still with something resembling a cover 3 I'd probably go cover 6 where the strong side corner is playing short and you can sort of roll coverage over the top.

When I first saw it I really thought that was on the DC and nothing has changed my mind about it thus far. Regardless if Earl was caught playing peekaboo on the sideline or if Cary was supposed to pick that man up on the second one.

I don't care.

Shouldn't have been in that coverage. Just go cover 2 and tell your corners that they may have to carry it deep. You don't want to give them a B line up the seam. With cover 3 deep in the RZ, you're essentially wasting a resource trying not to get beat deep. Buuuuuuuuuuuut.....there's only like 20 yards there, bruh.

Cover 3 BASE DEFENSE, but down and distance dictates situations. It's just one of those things dude has to learn.

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vin.couve12":2ga42omg said:

I will say that the biggest weakness to cover 2 in the RZ is this bidniss right here.





Those flag patters to the back corner can be deadly there with a well thrown ball. And ironically cover 3 would be suited against that concept. However, as a basis you basically go with the shortest distance rule. Don't give up the quick, direct one. I guess something you could take from that is that there is no unbeatable defensive concept. It just doesn't exist.

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And actually, this is indeed the same general concept that Cinci used, but it isn't near the 10 yard line. If we run cover 3 as a whole unit here this is a good call as well. If Sherm knows it's cover 3 he has to run with that deep route and it's not a touchdown.

https://streamable.com/xzwv

Cover 3 is absolutely fine here so I take a small part of that back.

kearly":3iol1o3j said:

Sounds like multiple parties messed up on the communication.

The only blame I can hand out here is that if anyone on the Seahawks was aware of the confusion they should have had the presence of mind to call a timeout immediately. Seattle had all 3 timeouts and didn't have enough time left on the clock to need them for a late 4th quarter score.

I kinda wish we didn't know about the blown communication because it just makes the hand-wringing even worse.

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Don't think they knew they were in the wrong till after the play though. Also, helmet communications, on offense and defense are only on for a specified amount of time.