Where are you at with the Graham/ Unger Trade?

Hi all, I just wanted to stop by and get your reaction to something written the other day.

I am a Saints fan, and yesterday when I read this article, I felt like the Graham/ Unger trade was still to close to call.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-orleans-sai ... raham-deal

I know that Graham's struggles have been well documented, but now it seems like you guys are figuring out how to use him. Unger has helped the line a ton, but he doesn't play defense, or catch passes, so his impact isn't as documented, but we are all very happy with him and Anthony.

Opinions on the trade midway through the season?

For me the results have been mixed. I see the potential that Graham brings, but I also believe missing Unger has been a big part of why the OL has failed to gel so far this season.

If the OL gets its act together for the next 8 games (and hopefully playoffs) and Jimmy continues to expand his role in the offense and create opportunities for others (Willson, the WRs) then I think I will call it a net gain for the Hawks. As of today though, too early to say that.

Someone here said it best with a pro bowl level qb, rb, and te why we can't score is indicative of something bigger. I don't recall a time when half the ol including under wasn't inactive. Our line may not be turning heads but they have been mostly together.

I am also a NOLA fan and was not a big fan of jimmy while he was here. He was always avoiding contact. Recalling old games, brees I think caused this by always playing the mismatch throwing high balls and jimmy getting cracked in mid air. I like jimmy in Seattle. I don't think his "problems" are his and I don't think lynch has lost a step. I think the offense is trying to develop into more of a passing offense with coaches, gm and staff that don't know how to do that. It's more than players.

Watching some of the plays jimmy has succeeded show there is hope but I think our high end is MUCH higher than unger watching injured on the sidelines

If you're going to bring Anthony into the discussion then we need to bring Tyler Lockett in as well, as the 4th round pick Seattle got in the trade was used, in part, to move up and draft Lockett.

All in all, I'm very happy with the trade.

My take is... It's easier to replace a center than it is to somehow acquire two exciting playmakers on offense (and special teams).

I never thought it was going to be a good trade, and it hasn't been. But I'm not sure I'd take it back, either.

You take this trade from two angles: how have the traded players done, and how well have the replacements for those players done ?

With the Saints, it's a big win on your end. It doesn't mean you got the better end of the deal, or got one over on Seattle, but it's working out better for you. Here's why:

Unger started a bit slow. It takes some time to integrate an offensive player. I'm not saying all the offensive woes at the beginning of the season were on Unger, as a lot of it was trying to replace Graham, but now with the OL looking solid, it's a good basis for Brees to get comfortable with Graham's replacements and new play makers. So, on this level, NO has done a better job adjusting and growing.

Seattle, on the other hand has had a harder time adjusting. This is NOT the player's fault. It has less to do with Graham, and more to do with Bevell being slower to adjust and unable to take advantage of Graham's unique attributes, and also Wilson being slower to adjust to a new receiver than say, Brees has been. Ironically, both QBs are showing signs of improving their rapport with newer receivers at about the same time.

The other big side of this is Seattle literally ignored addressing the Center position, incorrectly assuming we had the answer already on our roster. They gambled that young players would step up through competition and play at a higher level than they've been able to do. Once again, I don't put this on players as you can't always expect them to progress as fast as you want them to. It's starting to get better, and we can see that, but it's cost us the first portion of the season.

This is still a good trade for both sides. Unger has managed to stay healthy, which he was unable to do with us the last couple of years. Graham seems to have integrated himself with his team mates just fine, and has also managed to stay healthy after being nicked up last year. We're also seeing steady improvement on offense from both squads, although I'd say NO is improving more rapidly. A big part of this is NO's superior offensive coaching.

There doesn't always have to be a clear cut winner. This is one of those times where I think both teams will have won at the end of the season.

MontanaHawk05":2uqczw7q said:

I never thought it was going to be a good trade, and it hasn't been. But I'm not sure I'd take it back, either.

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You have to admit though, Graham is being utilized more. Whether by design from Bevell or simply trust from Russ, or more likely a combo of both.

In my opinion, Seahawks have been using Graham in this offense just fine. That's really not an issue anymore like it was early in the season.

I am happy with it as I feel even Bevell is smart enough to eventually figure out how to best utilize him in our system. You can see the progress. Perhaps I am being a bit naive by saying this but I expect to see some dominant games and touchdowns out of him in the second half of the season. The chemistry, trust and timing between Wilson and Graham is an exponential process and one that should pay dividends in the next two months.

IMO people keep getting this deal wrong. It wasn't a one-for-one trade.

Unger was banged up, consistently missing time and could've been on the way out anyway. The Seahawks, instead of cutting him, got a fourth rounder. Whether you think that's fair value or not, not many ageing, injured center's get anything for you when they leave. And let's not forget -- when Unger was out last year, did anyone notice the performance of LJP or Patrick Lewis? They came in and the team didn't really miss a beat. You can make a very strong case that Seattle's problem this year isn't the removal of Unger from the line. It's the fact they had to break in three new starters at LG, C and RT because Britt couldn't hold down the RT spot and Alvin Bailey blew his chance at guard. The overall lack of chemistry and experience cannot be underestimated.

That leaves it as simply Graham for a first rounder. Yes you have to pay his salary, but who would you take with pick #31 instead of Jimmy Graham? Whatever your thoughts on his production so far, he is undoubtedly one of the elite TE's in the game. And Seattle got him for what? A pick Schneider admits wouldn't have got a first round talent. They were long gone. There were around 15 first round prospects in 2015. So you're looking at second round talent at the price of a first rounder.

They got a difference maker, an X-factor. And yeah, he isn't tearing up the league. Yet. But in terms of a pure deal, it's a relative bargain for the Seahawks. Now they just have to make it work. But what they acquired him for -- and this deal in total -- not sure how anyone can judge it as a bad move by the Seahawks.

I never felt confident that Unger would stay healthy the entire season.

onanygivensunday":22m1w8kw said:

If you're going to bring Anthony into the discussion then we need to bring Tyler Lockett in as well

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Ehh, not really. Stephone Anthony was drafted with the Seahawks' pick, whereas the majority of the draft capital the Seahawaks used to move up for Lockett was theirs to begin with. If you use a draft value chart it would basically be:

Unger + Anthony for Graham + 30% of Tyler Lockett.

SAINTS:

As for the Saints, I think it is, at this point, absolutely a good trade for them. They got Unger, Stephone Anthony, and if you pro-rate Ben Watson's stats across the year from last year with Graham at the position they've gotten 106% of Graham's production last year for 20% of the price.

Basically they've duplicated their TE production for a quarter of the price and added Unger and Anthony too. That's a huge win for a cash strapped team.

SEAHAWKS:

For the Hawks it's a little more complicated because of the 30% of Lockett, and you can't really calculate the opportunity cost of the lost first round pick because you don't know who the Hawks would have selected.

That said, so far with Graham this year they've gotten 230% of Luke Wilson's production from last year for 1,270% of the price.


FROM ALL OF THIS, I GUESS I HAVE TWO THOUGHTS:


1) It's just super hard to calculate if it was a good trade for the Hawks, not only because of 30% Lockett and incalculable opportunity cost of who they would have picked in the 1st, but also because increased output and salary almost DEFINITELY don't exist on a linear scale. I think the signs would point to it so far not being a great trade for the Seahawks, but I seriously think it's just too hard to calculate. My conclusion for the Hawks is basically a questionmark, ever-so-slightly trending negative.

2) Unlike the Seahawks' side, I really can't see the argument for why this trade didn't work out for the Saints. As I think the Saints knew all along, Drew Brees "made" Jimmy Graham much more than Jimmy Graham "made" Drew Brees. The Saints basically have replaced Graham's production for 20% of the price AND gotten two good players for it in the process. That's a huge win in anybody's book.

I'd have rather we got offensive line help.

theENGLISHseahawk":2obueejq said:

IMO people keep getting this deal wrong. It wasn't a one-for-one trade.

Unger was banged up, consistently missing time and could've been on the way out anyway. The Seahawks, instead of cutting him, got a fourth rounder. Whether you think that's fair value or not, not many ageing, injured center's get anything for you when they leave. And let's not forget -- when Unger was out last year, did anyone notice the performance of LJP or Patrick Lewis? They came in and the team didn't really miss a beat. You can make a very strong case that Seattle's problem this year isn't the removal of Unger from the line. It's the fact they had to break in three new starters at LG, C and RT because Britt couldn't hold down the RT spot and Alvin Bailey blew his chance at guard. The overall lack of chemistry and experience cannot be underestimated.

That leaves it as simply Graham for a first rounder. Yes you have to pay his salary, but who would you take with pick #31 instead of Jimmy Graham? Whatever your thoughts on his production so far, he is undoubtedly one of the elite TE's in the game. And Seattle got him for what? A pick Schneider admits wouldn't have got a first round talent. They were long gone. There were around 15 first round prospects in 2015. So you're looking at second round talent at the price of a first rounder.

They got a difference maker, an X-factor. And yeah, he isn't tearing up the league. Yet. But in terms of a pure deal, it's a relative bargain for the Seahawks. Now they just have to make it work. But what they acquired him for -- and this deal in total -- not sure how anyone can judge it as a bad move by the Seahawks.

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Said everything I wanted to say. Great post.

Graham all the way. Unger is just one guy on the O-line and we would still be having problems with that group this year.

I see Graham having a big impact for this team down the stretch more so than Unger being here.

SalishHawkFan":2udc03b9 said:

I'd have rather we got offensive line help.

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Trading offensive line for offensive line, you sir would make a brilliant GM.

theENGLISHseahawk":3kyg72kn said:

IMO people keep getting this deal wrong. It wasn't a one-for-one trade.

Unger was banged up, consistently missing time and could've been on the way out anyway. The Seahawks, instead of cutting him, got a fourth rounder. Whether you think that's fair value or not, not many ageing, injured center's get anything for you when they leave. And let's not forget -- when Unger was out last year, did anyone notice the performance of LJP or Patrick Lewis? They came in and the team didn't really miss a beat. You can make a very strong case that Seattle's problem this year isn't the removal of Unger from the line. It's the fact they had to break in three new starters at LG, C and RT because Britt couldn't hold down the RT spot and Alvin Bailey blew his chance at guard. The overall lack of chemistry and experience cannot be underestimated.

That leaves it as simply Graham for a first rounder. Yes you have to pay his salary, but who would you take with pick #31 instead of Jimmy Graham? Whatever your thoughts on his production so far, he is undoubtedly one of the elite TE's in the game. And Seattle got him for what? A pick Schneider admits wouldn't have got a first round talent. They were long gone. There were around 15 first round prospects in 2015. So you're looking at second round talent at the price of a first rounder.

They got a difference maker, an X-factor. And yeah, he isn't tearing up the league. Yet. But in terms of a pure deal, it's a relative bargain for the Seahawks. Now they just have to make it work. But what they acquired him for -- and this deal in total -- not sure how anyone can judge it as a bad move by the Seahawks.

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what he said.. get average blocking on the OL and a decent #1 WR.. Jimmy will produce much more vertically I think

Better off trading Unger for some picks and then sigining some vet OL players. Last in the league in redzone, its so dumb.

Graham, whether ill used or not, has been undoubtedly our best receiver. So it was a big upgrade for Seattle.

From a targets/receiving yards standpoint, he's pretty much the same as he was in NO. We haven't been able to match his scoring however and I think that's bigger than Graham.

I think it's more of a case of a good trade for all parties involved.

In the short term, it's been a Less than Average trade in my opinion, because similar to when they traded for Harvin, it's disrupted the flow and identity of our offence. Now Wilson feels pressured to look Graham's direction 10 or so times each game and provide Graham with his targets instead of simply distributing the ball to the open receiver which Wilson is much better and more comfortable doing. As a result, I think Wilson has missed throwing to open receivers like Baldwn and Lockett several times this year because he's focused on looking Graham's way first and sometimes waiting too long for him to gain separation rather than quickly going to his next read.

Additionally, Graham's poor blocking skills along with the fact that his 9 million dollars or so cap hit could have been used to sign an Olineman or two with at least average pass blocking skills, appears to have adversely affected our pass blocking and therefore the overall effectiveness of our passing offence in the short term.

If the inexperienced Olineman keep improving and Graham becomes better integrated into the flow of the offence, then longer term this may turn out to be a good trade.

If the passing offence continues to struggle for the rest of the year with Graham, perhaps the Hawks can unload Graham in the offseason for a 2nd round pick assuming another team is willing to pick up his 10 million dollar cap hit next year.