Penalty Breakdown

Sgt Largent · Nov 19, 2015

SEATTLE

In play OFF: 5 Holding, 1 Facemask, 1 Grounding = 7

Presnap OFF: 1 Delay, 1 False Start = 2

In play DEF: 2 Holding, 2 Pass Interference, 1 Roughing, 2 Illegal Contact = 7

ST = None

Total 16 Penalties - 13 during play (I.E. Judgement calls or calls that can be missed in the heat of the action)

ARIZONA

In play OFF: 1 Grounding = 1

Presnap OFF: 4 False Start, 1 Illegal Formation = 5

In play DEF: 1 Pass Interference, 1 Holding = 2

ST: 1 Unsportsmanlike = 1

Total 9 Penalties - 3 during play (66% of penalty calls were presnap)

I knew I watched a poorly officiated game but WOW. We all know the way it is supposed to work. You set a baseline for what is a penalty, and hold BOTH teams to the same standard.

I'm not sure I can explain how these guys had such good eyes that they could find 5 holds (OFF) and 6 DB penalties (DEF) on Seattle, but the best they could come up with for Arizona was 2 on DEF and 0 on OFF.

For the record, never have I looked at penalties in this much detail. It's just been spinning in my brain the last couple days and I was sure I was misremembering or looking for a scapegoat. Absolutely fascinating. Been playing, coaching or watching this game a long time and never have I seen something like this..

NOTE: for those that say "we only had 14 penalties" - 2 were declined.

link to the data source: http://www.nflpenalties.com/team/seattl ... ?year=2015

pmedic920 · Nov 19, 2015

I'm not sure what these stats really mean. I know that I've watched many games and thought that the Seahawks got the crappy end of the stick but I've always kinda chalked it up to me being a homer.
I don't really buy into any real conspiracy theory but I have wondered if there is one.
I've always thought that if there was one, at some point in time, a disgruntled NFL employee or Referee would have outed the info. To my knowledge that has never happened.
However when the stats are laid out as above, it makes you think, Hmmmmm

Largent80 · Nov 19, 2015

These penalties are all Ciaras fault.

Sgt Largent · Nov 19, 2015

pmedic920":1t8dlzbj said:
I'm not sure what these stats really mean. I know that I've watched many games and thought that the Seahawks got the crappy end of the stick but I've always kinda chalked it up to me being a homer.
I don't really buy into any real conspiracy theory but I have wondered if there is one.
I've always thought that if there was one, at some point in time, a disgruntled NFL employee or Referee would have outed the info. To my knowledge that has never happened.
However when the stats are laid out as above, it makes you think, Hmmmmm

I reread what I wrote, not sure why I needed to discount the possibility of a "conspiracy". I believe in nothing of the sort. Just a horrible effort on the part of the referees. I have no explanation. No secret whispers before the game about how they would job the Seahawks. Just very poorly officiated. No whys or how comes are necessary.

If one believes in the premise that penalties occur on every play, referees must make internal decisions on where that line is going to be. Penalties during the play are almost exclusively judgement calls. Specifically in the case of holding, 5 to 0 is ridiculous. Maybe Arizona is better at disguising it?

pmedic920 · Nov 19, 2015

Sgt Largent":2o1wcmlg said:
I reread what I wrote, not sure why I needed to discount the possibility of a "conspiracy". I believe in nothing of the sort. Just a horrible effort on the part of the referees. I have no explanation. No secret whispers before the game about how they would job the Seahawks. Just very poorly officiated. No whys or how comes are necessary.

If one believes in the premise that penalties occur on every play, referees must make internal decisions on where that line is going to be. Penalties during the play are almost exclusively judgement calls. Specifically in the case of holding, 5 to 0 is ridiculous. Maybe Arizona is better at disguising it?

And my intention was not too insinuate that you were suggesting a conspiracy.
It's just that so many people seem to think that there is one.
I don't think there is but when you see the statistics laid out like this, it's easy to understand why some think it.

SomersetHawk · Nov 19, 2015

I'm sure we'll be submitting plenty of tape to the league. Still, despite the utter suckfest the Zebras put on Arizona looked like the better team and warranted the win.

Though it's hard to imagine us being 4-5 if that game was officiated in a capable manner. Meh.

Sgt Largent · Nov 19, 2015

My apologies Pmedic. It took another reading to get the gist of your point, but I didn't want to remove my response for fear of looking shady after the fact. I already had an expectation of of the "no conspiracy theory" dismissals and I reacted before understanding your tone. Again, I get what you are saying and agree. It's hard to rationalize what we see at times with anything that makes sense.

Popeyejones · Nov 19, 2015

In my 20+ years as an NFL fan, I have yet to see any fan of any team complain when lopsided penalties, poor officiating, or blown calls helped their favorite team win.

From that, I conclude that I don't think anyone actually has a sincere problem with these things. Instead, they just don't like it when their team loses, and "officiating" is but one of several ports in the storm through which fans excuse their teams losses as not really counting as what they are.

RichNhansom · Nov 19, 2015

Popeyejones":31pfgkez said:
In my 20+ years as an NFL fan, I have yet to see any fan of any team complain when lopsided penalties, poor officiating, or blown calls helped their favorite team win.

From that, I conclude that I don't think anyone actually has a sincere problem with these things. Instead, they just don't like it when their team loses, and "officiating" is but one of several ports in the storm through which fans excuse their teams losses as not really counting as what they are.

I've said it and have read it in here multiple times that I don't want to win like that. Myself and others have pointed out multiple bad calls that went our way.

I understand what you are saying but trying to wright off the officiating completely when you watch a game like this one is as ignorant as blaming every loss on it or every win on luck.

RichNhansom · Nov 19, 2015

SomersetHawk":2g4hsjrs said:
I'm sure we'll be submitting plenty of tape to the league. Still, despite the utter suckfest the Zebras put on Arizona looked like the better team and warranted the win.

It's kind of hard to really judge who looked better though. When you are playing with momentum you always look better espeacially when you get repeated mulligans on third downs.

To the opposite end of that spectrum it is hard to het momentum when you are taken out of your game plan and constantly playing grom a hole.

That is what bothers me more than anything is watching a game this poorly officiated completely ruins tge game. You end up wondering who really was the better team.

This game to me looked more like a chess game for the officials using the players on the field as chess peices. The only thing we learned from this game was that the officials can completely ruin the game and sport.

RichNhansom · Nov 19, 2015

RichNhansom":2jasngzg said:
SomersetHawk":2jasngzg said:

I'm sure we'll be submitting plenty of tape to the league. Still, despite the utter suckfest the Zebras put on Arizona looked like the better team and warranted the win.

Click to expand...

It's kind of hard to really judge who looked better though. When you are playing with momentum you always look better espeacially when you get repeated mulligans on third downs.

To the opposite end of that spectrum it is hard to get momentum when you are taken out of your game plan and constantly playing from a hole.

That is what bothers me more than anything is watching a game this poorly officiated completely ruins the game. You end up wondering who really was the better team.

This game to me looked more like a chess game for the officials using the players on the field as chess peices. The only thing we learned from this game was that the officials can completely ruin the game and sport.

hawkfan68 · Nov 19, 2015

I believe Clete Blakeman is one of the worst referees in NFL. I had a feeling it was going to be a long night penalty wise once he was announced as the referee. He and his crew screwed up a MNF game in 2013 - Pats vs. Panthers. There was a pass interference call on Luke Kuechly late in the game. The pass to Gronk in the endzone was intercepted by Panthers player. But Kuechly definitely grabbed Gronk on the play. A flag was thrown but then later picked up as a no call. The reason being that the pass was deemed uncatchable. I mentioned the above example because I don't have a rooting interest in any of the two teams involved.

According to the following article, Blakeman calls 5% more penalties against the home team.
http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos...keman-to-broncos-chargers-playoff-game/24804/

http://snewsi.com/id/15422999731/

The Seahawks are now 1-5 in games that Clete Blakeman has refereed in the Carroll era.

Sgt Largent · Nov 19, 2015

Popeyejones":28bqcfh5 said:
In my 20+ years as an NFL fan, I have yet to see any fan of any team complain when lopsided penalties, poor officiating, or blown calls helped their favorite team win.

From that, I conclude that I don't think anyone actually has a sincere problem with these things. Instead, they just don't like it when their team loses, and "officiating" is but one of several ports in the storm through which fans excuse their teams losses as not really counting as what they are.

What are you talking about P Jones? Of course you hear people complain when their team benefits. They complain that the other teams fans are devaluing the win by complaining about calls. Usually manifests itself by minimizing the idea that officiating can make much of a difference, throwing out lots of clichés about how good teams win anyway...etc... etc...

The idea that officiating is an excuse for losing is irrelevant to this topic. The premise of this topic was to look in detail at the way the game was officiated and attempt to make some sense of the lopsided nature of the calls.

Illegal contact, holding, pass interference, roughing - all penalties related to over aggression during the play. They require officials to make judgements on what they will allow (grey area calls). False starts, illegal formation, delay of game (black and white).

SEA (14)
ARI (2)

Unless Seattle showed up with baseball bats, chains, and knives while Arizona brought their pillows, the numbers above are quite unbelievable.

Oh and :49ersmall:

bigskydoc · Nov 19, 2015

Largent80":2idj02j1 said:
These penalties are all Ciaras fault.

We really need to try to hook up Bevell and Ciara, with Tate for a little party. Only way we are going to get rid of all that is wrong with the team.

jammerhawk · Nov 19, 2015

If anyone thinks that crew that called the AZ game was good they need to re-watch their calls and non-calls. Wow, just awful. it is instructive to see how many times they were reversed as well.

At this point of the season there is something going on for the Hawks to be as far below the statistical norm for penalties for 1st down. It isn't the case that the Hawks WRs, DLine, TEs are not being held. interfered with, or simply mugged. Despite the obvious there seems to an inequity in the rules application where Seattle is concerned. The league needs to explain this huge incomprehensible penalty differential.

All on all having an even game called seems to be something we won't see this year. The statistics seem to show that certain penalties are not being called against the Hawks opponents this season and that the Hawks are being called for every tacky tack foul that the referees can imagine.

DangerousDoug · Nov 19, 2015

Agree with the analysis. Brutal night by the officials.

HawkGA · Nov 19, 2015

A bad call here and there is one thing. What happened Sunday night is something else entirely.

SoCalSeahawk · Nov 19, 2015

The Seahawks have benefitted from exactly four in-play judgment penalties against opposing defenses all season. The two called against Arizona doubled our season total. Conspiracy? Pay back for the years our DBs were "mugging" receivers? Or, maybe our WRs are not physical mismatches for most DBs and therefore there is no need to hold or interfere with them.

NFL referees call about 68% of offensive holding calls on first down. Only about 12% on third down. I find it unlikely that offensive linemen change their technique based on the down. It's more likely that the officials do not want to erase or award first downs on critical third downs so they let them play. Also, some offensive possessions never involve a third down so there are fewer of those plays to have a holding penalty called, but not a 5.5:1 ratio. The Seahawks particularly excel at brining the heat on third and medium-to-long. So, even though the holding on those downs has been sometimes blatant against our guys, the officials are simply reluctant to call it because it is third down.

Our two highest drafted linemen, Okung and Britt are responsible for 5 of 7 holding calls against our offensive line and 5 of 8 false starts called against our offensive line this year. Gilliam has not been called for holding or a false start this year. J.R. Sweezy is Mr. Unnecessary Roughness, but I think I like that about him. The TEs, WRs and RBs have been called for holding five times, almost as many as our offensive line. The talk of holding penalties being caused by our converts doesn't hold water: Gilliam, Sweezy and Nowack (or the Center of the week) have combined for two holding penalties all season. The talent may be in question, but they are not the ones killing drives with penalties.

The glaring area in penalties for and against Seattle is the lack of penalties committed against our offense. Defensive linemen don't have to fight as hard to get by our linemen, defensive backs don't have to grab & bump our receivers and overall the defenses are not afraid of anything we throw (or run) at them. Our plays are not complicated, which means the defense does not get caught up in mental errors as much. Nothing intricate for them to think about at all. It's a personnel issue and a play design issue in terms of not drawing as many penalties. Pete has even commented that he had the same phenomena at USC. It appears to be a by-product of his philosophy. But, another by-product of his philosophy is winning.

UK_Seahawk · Nov 19, 2015

Only losers complain about officiating. Winners overcome bad calls and bad breaks.

Silver Hawk · Nov 19, 2015

UK_Seahawk":2tdi3236 said:
Only losers complain about officiating. Winners overcome bad calls and bad breaks.

That's funny stuff there.

Sunday night kind of reminds me of the 2006 SB.

Penalty Breakdown

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