The Seahawks elite offense between 2012-2015

theENGLISHseahawk

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Per Jacson Bevens referring to Football Outsiders' DVOA, the Seahawks currently have the #9 ranked offense in the NFL.

Here's the final season ranking for Seattle's offense since 2012:

2012: 4th
2013 7th
2014: 9th

Here's the best combined offensive DVOA since 2012...

1. Patriots 81.5
2. Packers 65.9
3. Broncos 59.6
4. SEAHAWKS 54.2
5. Saints 48.2

So yeah.

People still want to give 70-year-old Norm Chow a call?
 

ringless

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Fire Bevell!!!

You missed an important part about how Seattle had also been leading the league in explosive plays until this year.
Or how they were one of the highest scoring offenses in the league.

Again, Fire Bevell!
 

justafan

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theENGLISHseahawk":28vzmqbj said:
Per Jacson Bevens referring to Football Outsiders' DVOA, the Seahawks currently have the #9 ranked offense in the NFL.

Here's the final season ranking for Seattle's offense since 2012:

2012: 4th
2013 7th
2014: 9th

Here's the best combined offensive DVOA since 2012...

1. Patriots 81.5
2. Packers 65.9
3. Broncos 59.6
4. SEAHAWKS 54.2
5. Saints 48.2

So yeah.

People still want to give 70-year-old Norm Chow a call?


Hell Chow was one of the better suggestions.People were throwing out defensive coaches to replace DB
 
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theENGLISHseahawk

theENGLISHseahawk

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ringless":2rmub64h said:
Fire Bevell!!!

You missed an important part about how Seattle had also been leading the league in explosive plays until this year.
Or how they were one of the highest scoring offenses in the league.

Again, Fire Bevell!

Excellent points.

Doubt this thread will be a seven-page thriller though. Not enough, "Yeah but Cris Collinsworth said we should run the ball."
 

MontanaHawk05

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Bevens and I just had an argument on Twitter. We agreed to disagree, but I think it's pretty clear that most of Fieldgulls is in full "two Super Bowls and fans are stupid so Bevell is good" mode.

Rob, you might have noticed that the DVOA has absolutely nothing to do with our record. We're 4-5 and the offense takes part in the blame. DVOA can't record improvisation. Isn't it possible that Wilson making something out of nothing is a great part of our success?
 

lobohawk

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How about Chip when the Eagles let him go? :stirthepot:
He gets to come back to the NW and finally has a QB.
 
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theENGLISHseahawk

theENGLISHseahawk

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MontanaHawk05":2hkeh6g7 said:
Rob, you might have noticed that the DVOA has absolutely nothing to do with our record. We're 4-5 and the offense takes part in the blame. DVOA can't record improvisation. Isn't it possible that Wilson making something out of nothing is a great part of our success?

Well, we're 5-5. And we were a play or two away from beating St. Louis, Green Bay, Carolina, Cincy and Arizona.

I think the DVOA rankings make perfect sense really. They had a touchdown lead against a Nick Foles Rams team with a minute to go and the backup safety falls over. He makes the play, could easily be 6-4. They don't throw away a 24-7 lead in Cincy with a bizarre fold on both sides of the ball it's 7-3. They finish the Carolina game properly. 8-2. This is still a good team that has gone through some self inflicted wounds but the overall product is still top-ten.

And if the Seahawks offense is top-10 for four years in a row via DVOA then that to me isn't just because Wilson is good at improvising. These stats suggest for all the hand-wringing on here about Bevell he's actually putting out a very productive product on the field -- and that's why Carroll (the best and most successful HC this franchise has ever had) continues to employ him. So be careful what you wish for.
 

MontanaHawk05

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theENGLISHseahawk":2ksievj3 said:
And if the Seahawks offense is top-10 for four years in a row via DVOA then that to me isn't just because Wilson is good at improvising.

I actually would pick that theory up in a heartbeat, honestly.

It begs a very interesting question: Just what role does any OC play in an offense's success? And the answer is, not as much as fans think. Whatever an OC's intentions in a play, it's the defense's job to thwart it, and they do it often. The result is improvisation, and although that improvisation may look different with different teams, it's still improvisation.

When Tony Romo or Tom Brady stand stock-still behind utterly pristine pass protection for six seconds, that's actually improvisation. The OC originally designed the play to go to either a target or a specific part of the field. If it didn't happen after three seconds, the WRs have started their scramble drill and it's improvisation. There are very few plays whose original design requires more than three seconds for WRs to run their routes; there is no play in those teams' playbook labeled "X Double Cross 2 Shallow Fake Dagger Stand Around Forever and Wait For Whoever to Get Open". That's not how plays are drawn up in the NFL.

With Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, or Ben Roethlisberger, the improvisation is more dramatic. They start running around; they buy time by leaving the pocket. Fans interpret this more harried-looking improvisation as a negative, since they've been conditioned by talking heads to believe that. But Wilson's improvisation is actually of the same purpose as Romo's, arguably of the same frequency, and indisputably (as you mentioned, Rob) of ACTUALLY BETTER RESULTS.

For that reason, I don't interpret our positive results as Bevell being a strong OC, because every OC in the league has enough of their plays thwarted to whittle the Super Bowl to the two best improvisational quarterbacks.

Now DVOA doesn't differentiate between a 40-yard bomb/12-yard scramble that was designed, and a 40-yard bomb/12-yard scramble that was drawn up as something else entirely and got salvaged by a QB with legs. So on that count, it's not a convincing stat for me. It does tell me that we have the potential to explode at any time, and that's valuable. But the visible plays on the field tell me that this offense has a ceiling we haven't reached. It's leaving us to walk a fine line, one which we've slipped off five times and are now on the outside of the division looking in.

My reasons for my dissatisfaction with Bevell have more to do with his weird tendencies - not designing effective third-down plays or screens, throwing deep bombs on third and 2 when a simple high-percentage out route would do, using Baldwin as a halfback...Bevell isn't an easy target, he's a deserving target. This stuff is daft. It's overthinking and it's not using players to their strengths.
 

ApnaHawk

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Bevell and Cable have turned around a o-line made up off a bunch of scrap parts. It's really remarkable how they've been on the cutting edge with lineman development and the offense hasn't fallen from grace. Partly due to Russell, but mainly due to the coaching of our team.

MontanaHawk, Our record is more of an indication of the brutal schedule we have played. We've been playing play-off type of games for majority of the season and this year the ball has just bounced the other teams way. Don't forget that even though we have beat teams such as the Panthers, Arizona, and Green Bay in years past, it was mostly due to the ball bouncing our way in a play our two.

All I'm trying to say is, our team is great! It's one of the best teams in the NFL. We have a great defense which is still ranked #2, and also a patient and steady offense that has shown significant improvement over the last few games. IIRC they rank near to the top half now in sacks given up over the last 4 games or so.

It's been nearly 3 full years since I've seen any team blow this team out of its water. These are our greatest year and they might never come again. To those who whine and complain (I've been a reader of this forum circa 2003 when it was part of scout and you could get a special membership to view "insider" info loll) have easily forgotten the bi-polar teams Holmgrem used to put on the field on a Sunday.
 

TwistedHusky

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Except we are 28th in drive success rate...

Last year we were 10th.

So we have a great offense but most of our drives fail?
 

marko358

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TwistedHusky":1tinlckm said:
Except we are 28th in drive success rate...

Last year we were 10th.

So we have a great offense but most of our drives fail?

Short term memory? Everyone is excited that the offense looked great against a terrible team and quickly forgets that the offense has been struggling all year.
 

Jville

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ApnaHawk":1kjkywmo said:
Bevell and Cable have turned around a o-line made up off a bunch of scrap parts. It's really remarkable how they've been on the cutting edge with lineman development and the offense hasn't fallen from grace. Partly due to Russell, but mainly due to the coaching of our team.

MontanaHawk, Our record is more of an indication of the brutal schedule we have played. We've been playing play-off type of games for majority of the season and this year the ball has just bounced the other teams way. Don't forget that even though we have beat teams such as the Panthers, Arizona, and Green Bay in years past, it was mostly due to the ball bouncing our way in a play our two.

All I'm trying to say is, our team is great! It's one of the best teams in the NFL. We have a great defense which is still ranked #2, and also a patient and steady offense that has shown significant improvement over the last few games. IIRC they rank near to the top half now in sacks given up over the last 4 games or so.

It's been nearly 3 full years since I've seen any team blow this team out of its water. These are our greatest year and they might never come again. To those who whine and complain (I've been a reader of this forum circa 2003 when it was part of scout and you could get a special membership to view "insider" info loll) have easily forgotten the bi-polar teams Holmgrem used to put on the field on a Sunday.

Good to see you jump on in and post your viewpoint.
 

mrt144

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TwistedHusky":2346mxlz said:
Except we are 28th in drive success rate...

Last year we were 10th.

So we have a great offense but most of our drives fail?

Hold on, I'm gonna need to get you a larger spoon for that pot.B
 

MontanaHawk05

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ApnaHawk":2r2jw7ui said:
MontanaHawk, Our record is more of an indication of the brutal schedule we have played. We've been playing play-off type of games for majority of the season and this year the ball has just bounced the other teams way. Don't forget that even though we have beat teams such as the Panthers, Arizona, and Green Bay in years past, it was mostly due to the ball bouncing our way in a play our two.

That's part of it. But in each of those games, we've had so much dead space. So many three-and-outs, so many missed opportunities on offense, and any one of those drives could have changed the game. It's agonizing. It's also a pattern at this point. We suck for a half, wake up in the third quarter hastily, rush to score points, but we've just languished too long. It's a battle of attrition by the end, and we lose.
 

hawknation2015

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theENGLISHseahawk":1nyndtwl said:
Per Jacson Bevens referring to Football Outsiders' DVOA, the Seahawks currently have the #9 ranked offense in the NFL.

Here's the final season ranking for Seattle's offense since 2012:

2012: 4th
2013 7th
2014: 9th

Here's the best combined offensive DVOA since 2012...

1. Patriots 81.5
2. Packers 65.9
3. Broncos 59.6
4. SEAHAWKS 54.2
5. Saints 48.2

So yeah.

People still want to give 70-year-old Norm Chow a call?

This is a reflection one of the weaknesses of DVOA, IMO.

There is no way in hell that a team ranked 16th in scoring and 31st in the red zone should be in the TOP 10 for offense. Is there some terrific offensive talent on this team? Absolutely, but the play calling has been radically inconsistent in utilizing the strengths of this offensive talent in key situations.
 

scutterhawk

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marko358":1xur8cfu said:
TwistedHusky":1xur8cfu said:
Except we are 28th in drive success rate...

Last year we were 10th.

So we have a great offense but most of our drives fail?

Short term memory? Everyone is excited that the offense looked great against a terrible team and quickly forgets that the offense has been struggling all year.
No shit, ain't it amazing what a really decent RB can do to help alleviate pressure off an NON pass protected Quarterback?
Maybe we'd all be talking a different story if we'd had just one or two good Run plays in those 5 losses eh?
Just like when Marshawn Lynch was doing when he was healthy......Good enough to take this team to two Super Bowls in a row.
Also, the Defense was doing a CONSIDERABLY better job at stopping the competition.
 

Anthony!

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scutterhawk":303u3ieu said:
marko358":303u3ieu said:
TwistedHusky":303u3ieu said:
Except we are 28th in drive success rate...

Last year we were 10th.

So we have a great offense but most of our drives fail?

Short term memory? Everyone is excited that the offense looked great against a terrible team and quickly forgets that the offense has been struggling all year.
No shit, ain't it amazing what a really decent RB can do to help alleviate pressure off an NON pass protected Quarterback?
Maybe we'd all be talking a different story if we'd had just one or two good Run plays in those 5 losses eh?
Just like when Marshawn Lynch was doing when he was healthy......Good enough to take this team to two Super Bowls in a row.
Also, the Defense was doing a CONSIDERABLY better job at stopping the competition.


Every great QB needs help, They need a couple of the following

Good Run game
Good pass protection
Good wr/te
Good defense
Good play calling and design

most of the year we got none of these. This last game we got enough of these. Again look at Rodgers struggled, oline playing bad, no run game, no great Wr, and defense okay. Then last game great run game, oline played well and walla. Look at Brady a year or so ago, oline okay, wr ahh, defense ahh, Te ahh run game ahh. Then Gronk comes back and he takes off. Every great QB needs some combination of the above. I can go on and on but it is the truth all great QBs need help, we finally got it.
 

Hawks46

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MontanaHawk05":1utylpoi said:
theENGLISHseahawk":1utylpoi said:
And if the Seahawks offense is top-10 for four years in a row via DVOA then that to me isn't just because Wilson is good at improvising.

I actually would pick that theory up in a heartbeat, honestly.

It begs a very interesting question: Just what role does any OC play in an offense's success? And the answer is, not as much as fans think. Whatever an OC's intentions in a play, it's the defense's job to thwart it, and they do it often. The result is improvisation, and although that improvisation may look different with different teams, it's still improvisation.

When Tony Romo or Tom Brady stand stock-still behind utterly pristine pass protection for six seconds, that's actually improvisation. The OC originally designed the play to go to either a target or a specific part of the field. If it didn't happen after three seconds, the WRs have started their scramble drill and it's improvisation. There are very few plays whose original design requires more than three seconds for WRs to run their routes; there is no play in those teams' playbook labeled "X Double Cross 2 Shallow Fake Dagger Stand Around Forever and Wait For Whoever to Get Open". That's not how plays are drawn up in the NFL.

With Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers, or Ben Roethlisberger, the improvisation is more dramatic. They start running around; they buy time by leaving the pocket. Fans interpret this more harried-looking improvisation as a negative, since they've been conditioned by talking heads to believe that. But Wilson's improvisation is actually of the same purpose as Romo's, arguably of the same frequency, and indisputably (as you mentioned, Rob) of ACTUALLY BETTER RESULTS.

For that reason, I don't interpret our positive results as Bevell being a strong OC, because every OC in the league has enough of their plays thwarted to whittle the Super Bowl to the two best improvisational quarterbacks.

Now DVOA doesn't differentiate between a 40-yard bomb/12-yard scramble that was designed, and a 40-yard bomb/12-yard scramble that was drawn up as something else entirely and got salvaged by a QB with legs. So on that count, it's not a convincing stat for me. It does tell me that we have the potential to explode at any time, and that's valuable. But the visible plays on the field tell me that this offense has a ceiling we haven't reached. It's leaving us to walk a fine line, one which we've slipped off five times and are now on the outside of the division looking in.

My reasons for my dissatisfaction with Bevell have more to do with his weird tendencies - not designing effective third-down plays or screens, throwing deep bombs on third and 2 when a simple high-percentage out route would do, using Baldwin as a halfback...Bevell isn't an easy target, he's a deserving target. This stuff is daft. It's overthinking and it's not using players to their strengths.

Great post and I agree with everything you said.

My biggest issues are with Bevell's situational play calling, our seeming inability to score RZ TD's (and some of the really laughable plays I do see called), and what seems a tendency to not be very reactive on offense until after halftime. We're a damn good team at half time adjustments, but in the 1st half, we don't react very well.

I've said before (mostly last year) that I'm all for replacing Bevell, but who out there is going to be markedly better ? We have a better chance to get someone worse than better than Bevell. Now, I would say I'd like an upgrade on the QB coach.

I'd also respectfully disagree with our 9th ranked DVOA this year. We're literally last in pass protection, 28th in ability to extend drives (or whatever the technical term is; we don't move the chains well) and bottom third in passing. We were bottom half of the league in scoring until we beat up on SF. That can't add up to 9th ranked DVOA, or at least a 9th ranked offense.
 

ApnaHawk

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MontanaHawk05":1igvbpup said:
ApnaHawk":1igvbpup said:
MontanaHawk, Our record is more of an indication of the brutal schedule we have played. We've been playing play-off type of games for majority of the season and this year the ball has just bounced the other teams way. Don't forget that even though we have beat teams such as the Panthers, Arizona, and Green Bay in years past, it was mostly due to the ball bouncing our way in a play our two.

That's part of it. But in each of those games, we've had so much dead space. So many three-and-outs, so many missed opportunities on offense, and any one of those drives could have changed the game. It's agonizing. It's also a pattern at this point. We suck for a half, wake up in the third quarter hastily, rush to score points, but we've just languished too long. It's a battle of attrition by the end, and we lose.

I suppose that's the result we have had to deal with due to the o-line being one of the cheapest if not cheapest unit on our team. Years past we always had Unger who was excellent at line-calls and just a natural center. I think they let him go cause they believed Russel could get our protection right pre-snap but that has not always been the case this year. It's getting a lot better however and we finnaly saw Russel step back, plant his foot and throw a beautiful ball to Lockett.

Which brings me to another point and I apologize if this derails the thread. Let me first say I love Wilson. He's the best qb this franchise has had imho. However, I believe he will continue to struggle as a traditional passer for a bit longer. It took Drew Brees many years before he could drop back and just sling the ball all over the place like he does now with NO. I think this is where the height really hinders Russell ability still. I also think Pete and company have stunted his growth due the constant pressure of protecting the ball. Russell does leave plays on the field. Luckily these are just temporary things and I know he will fix them.
 

Siouxhawk

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theENGLISHseahawk":gi8rcqkn said:
MontanaHawk05":gi8rcqkn said:
Rob, you might have noticed that the DVOA has absolutely nothing to do with our record. We're 4-5 and the offense takes part in the blame. DVOA can't record improvisation. Isn't it possible that Wilson making something out of nothing is a great part of our success?

Well, we're 5-5. And we were a play or two away from beating St. Louis, Green Bay, Carolina, Cincy and Arizona.

I think the DVOA rankings make perfect sense really. They had a touchdown lead against a Nick Foles Rams team with a minute to go and the backup safety falls over. He makes the play, could easily be 6-4. They don't throw away a 24-7 lead in Cincy with a bizarre fold on both sides of the ball it's 7-3. They finish the Carolina game properly. 8-2. This is still a good team that has gone through some self inflicted wounds but the overall product is still top-ten.

And if the Seahawks offense is top-10 for four years in a row via DVOA then that to me isn't just because Wilson is good at improvising. These stats suggest for all the hand-wringing on here about Bevell he's actually putting out a very productive product on the field -- and that's why Carroll (the best and most successful HC this franchise has ever had) continues to employ him. So be careful what you wish for.
Excellent post English. The way Bevell runs the offense, we usually are in a position to win the game in the fourth quarter. It's not how you start, it's how you finish and the Bevell-designed offense is starting to fire on all cylinders with improved line play just as I expected it would. It's really a great time to be a Hawks fan!
 

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