If you're not over the loss, don't open this one.

Been watching that first play from scrimmage and now that I've had some time to process the loss, it feels a lot less like a slip was the problem and a lot more like a poorly executed defensive play by Seattle.

I don't think Kam not being on the field for this one mattered either. Looked like K.J. pulled up to fill the gap and it gave the fullback time to come off of another block and pick him up. Earl slips but it looks like he took a bad angle, Bobby got washed out, Shead took a bad angle and Bane got held in the middle (he almost had the TFL).

What say you?

Mebane was occupying multiple defenders, no excuse for that play to be busted off. Bad form Seattle.

I know they play pretty aggressive, but should Shead have taken a bit of an outside route a bit deeper to break off the run? I see where he was playing spy for Cam, but when the ball was going downfield, he went directly into our player being blocked by theirs.

I have not rewatched the game yet...and the dvd is still here somewhere awaiting destruction.

I've said this here before (and it has pissed people off before :lol: ) but the one thing that for me makes ET a great player and not an all-time great player is that he has a nasty habit of over-pursuing and lunging rather than keeping ball carriers in front of him, breaking down, and wrapping up.

If he was an LB you'd just kind of live with this, but for all of the things he's tops in the league at, it's just really not what you want to see from a safety, particularly in the Hawks' scheme.

Five things I see on this play:

1) At the first level that's on Rubin. That's his gap and I know he's getting doubled before the scrape off, but c'mon dude, you need to at least try a little harder to hold your gap.
2) Great block by Tolbert, who's not really known for his blocking.
3) Wagner just really can't let a LG come from across the formation on a combo block and still beat him to his upside shoulder. C'mon, dude. As soon as you see those pulling guards you should already know exactly where the block on you is coming from.
4) Shead needs to see what's happening there and not run himself out of the play. C'mon dude.
5) Not the first or last time I've seen that from ET, and seriously, it's the difference between him being great and an all-time great, IMO.

Popeyejones":3fkiq22g said:

I've said this here before (and it has pissed people off before :lol: ) but the one thing that for me makes ET a great player and not an all-time great player is that he has a nasty habit of over-pursuing and lunging rather than keeping ball carriers in front of him, breaking down, and wrapping up.

If he was an LB you'd just kind of live with this, but for all of the things he's tops in the league at, it's just really not what you want to see from a safety, particularly in the Hawks' scheme.

Five things I see on this play:

1) At the first level that's on Rubin. That's his gap and I know he's getting doubled before the scrape off, but c'mon dude, you need to at least try a little harder to hold your gap.
2) Great block by Tolbert, who's not really known for his blocking.
3) Wagner just really can't let a LG come from across the formation on a combo block and still beat him to his upside shoulder. C'mon, dude. As soon as you see those pulling guards you should already know exactly where the block on you is coming from.
4) Shead needs to see what's happening there and not run himself out of the play. C'mon dude.
5) Not the first or last time I've seen that from ET, and seriously, it's the difference between him being great and an all-time great, IMO.

Click to expand...

Regarding Earl, I remember a Gore run against San Francisco in 2013 where Earl did the exact same thing.. and thats what ultimately lost the game.

He's a phenomenal player but you're right, sometimes his aggressive nature can bite him in the ass.

Popeyejones":1ut1b65l said:

I've said this here before (and it has pissed people off before :lol: ) but the one thing that for me makes ET a great player and not an all-time great player is that he has a nasty habit of over-pursuing and lunging rather than keeping ball carriers in front of him, breaking down, and wrapping up.

If he was an LB you'd just kind of live with this, but for all of the things he's tops in the league at, it's just really not what you want to see from a safety, particularly in the Hawks' scheme.

Five things I see on this play:

1) At the first level that's on Rubin. That's his gap and I know he's getting doubled before the scrape off, but c'mon dude, you need to at least try a little harder to hold your gap.
2) Great block by Tolbert, who's not really known for his blocking.
3) Wagner just really can't let a LG come from across the formation on a combo block and still beat him to his upside shoulder. C'mon, dude. As soon as you see those pulling guards you should already know exactly where the block on you is coming from.
4) Shead needs to see what's happening there and not run himself out of the play. C'mon dude.
5) Not the first or last time I've seen that from ET, and seriously, it's the difference between him being great and an all-time great, IMO.

Click to expand...

Not pissed off. Not surprised that you look for an opportunity to insult when you can. When it comes to Earl Thomas, you just define "habit" and "aberration" as one in the same. All-time greats have some bad plays. It's football.

Moving on...

Hasselbeck":3f4gea65 said:

Regarding Earl, I remember a Gore run against San Francisco in 2013 where Earl did the exact same thing.. and thats what ultimately lost the game.

He's a phenomenal player but you're right, sometimes his aggressive nature can bite him in the ass.

Click to expand...

Yep. It was that run in '13 that made me first question what the heck ET was doing, and it wasn't really until after it that I started noticing it wasn't an one-time thing for him.

Again though, I don't want to overstate this, as I still think he's a great, great player, and his game (like everyone's game save for maybe Watt) just has one flaw that happens to rub me the wrong way.

Oh, also, watched it again, and on my list of things I shoulda shouted out #74 (Mike Remmers). Dude deserves a raise for that block, beating (I think???) Bennett across his face like that at the snap is just a special play.

I know this play has gotta sting for Hawks fans, but IMO it is a good example of the intricacies and team nature of football.

It takes at least a few really special individual performances and at least a few really "special" individual performances for a big run play to break off like that.

TeamoftheCentury":1z7x0k1u said:

Not pissed off. Not surprised that you look for an opportunity to insult when you can. When it comes to Earl Thomas, you just define "habit" and "aberration" as one in the same. All-time greats have some bad plays. It's football.

Moving on...

Click to expand...

Fair enough, but if you really think it's a serious insult to call a player "really great" while saying that for one's self he's not past the cusp of "all time" great you might be a little sensitive too, no?

I guess what we maybe disagree on is if ET playing a little fast and loose as the last line can happen sometimes, or is aberrant, and I think it's the former and you think it's the latter. Even if my impression from having watched him play is correct it doesn't mean he's not a special player.

Laloosh":tfmkt38z said:

Been watching that first play from scrimmage and now that I've had some time to process the loss, it feels a lot less like a slip was the problem and a lot more like a poorly executed defensive play by Seattle.

I don't think Kam not being on the field for this one mattered either. Looked like K.J. pulled up to fill the gap and it gave the fullback time to come off of another block and pick him up. Earl slips but it looks like he took a bad angle, Bobby got washed out, Shead took a bad angle and Bane got held in the middle (he almost had the TFL).

What say you?

Click to expand...

It looked like the defense was trying to run through quicksand. K.J. is just moving very awkwardly and gingerly here. Thomas runs very oddly. Shead trips and Wagner outright falls over.

Yeah . . . uhhh, guess the field/cleats had zero effect here. :34853_doh:

What say I? I say I thank the hawks for the warning on that first run of what I was about to witness.

I never expected the team would finish a 3rd straight SB run given the early problems, holes dug, and long road. That game was an exact replica of the season, poor start - good finish with some hope.

It's over and next year will be way different. I'm over it and glad our team will have more rest and less distractions to come back hard and hungry.

Go Hawks!!

Popeyejones":it5rr2ea said:

I've said this here before (and it has pissed people off before :lol: ) but the one thing that for me makes ET a great player and not an all-time great player is that he has a nasty habit of over-pursuing and lunging rather than keeping ball carriers in front of him, breaking down, and wrapping up.

If he was an LB you'd just kind of live with this, but for all of the things he's tops in the league at, it's just really not what you want to see from a safety, particularly in the Hawks' scheme.

Five things I see on this play:

1) At the first level that's on Rubin. That's his gap and I know he's getting doubled before the scrape off, but c'mon dude, you need to at least try a little harder to hold your gap.
2) Great block by Tolbert, who's not really known for his blocking.
3) Wagner just really can't let a LG come from across the formation on a combo block and still beat him to his upside shoulder. C'mon, dude. As soon as you see those pulling guards you should already know exactly where the block on you is coming from.
4) Shead needs to see what's happening there and not run himself out of the play. C'mon dude.
5) Not the first or last time I've seen that from ET, and seriously, it's the difference between him being great and an all-time great, IMO.

Click to expand...

It's funny when I get to read how a former lineman sees this because I was surprised that you mentioned Rubin was part of the problem.

Looked like he was barely moved by the double team. Bane gets into the backfield, Rubin looked like he just didn't get any push (which I didn't really expect given the combo block).

And that, is why I ask you guys what you see

Thanks for sharing, popeye.

hawknation2016":y33uoodz said:

It looked like the defense was trying to run through quicksand. K.J. is just moving very awkwardly and gingerly here. Thomas runs very oddly. Shead trips and Wagner outright falls over.

Yeah . . . uhhh, guess the field/cleats had zero effect here. :34853_doh:

Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't see it like you do. Guess that's cause for condescension.

By the way. I didn't say that the field/cleats had zero effect. Don't put words into my mouth.

Popeyejones":32wwmbrv said:

TeamoftheCentury":32wwmbrv said:

Not pissed off. Not surprised that you look for an opportunity to insult when you can. When it comes to Earl Thomas, you just define "habit" and "aberration" as one in the same. All-time greats have some bad plays. It's football.

Moving on...

Click to expand...

Fair enough, but if you really think it's a serious insult to call a player "really great" while saying that for one's self he's not past the cusp of "all time" great you might be a little sensitive too, no?

I guess what we maybe disagree on is if ET playing a little fast and loose as the last line can happen sometimes, or is aberrant, and I think it's the former and you think it's the latter. Even if my impression from having watched him play is correct it doesn't mean he's not a special player.

Click to expand...

My apologies, Popeye. I failed to place a at the end of the "insult" remark. Was just bustin' yo chops a bit since you "dared" say anything about our Earl.

But in all seriousness, say what you want or look for his faults (I'm sure anyone can find tape of him not at his best.) But, there's not a team out there that wouldn't want him. Glad he's a Hawk... and hopefully for the life of his career. He will be remembered as an All-Time great. I'm not being sensitive. He's just that good.

I'll say this, too. I watch football all the time... at all levels. My sons have played Safety. I've asked them questions about their pursuit and angles... and their coaches have even told me they were in position. I understand that the Safety is the last line of defense, but you also allow elite players to read and react. Sometimes it will get you burned. Part of what makes Earl great is his anticipation of plays and his relentless pursuit. That play should have never reached that level. But, it's splitting hairs at this point. I just think you took an opportunity to speak poorly of a player that plays his guts out. Any coach will take "all out" any day vs. tentativeness.

So, my intent in saying what I said in the first place was more a football answer. You're nit-picking a bit. It's football.

Thanks for the dialogue. Again, my apologies. I didn't mean to come across that strongly towards you... this time.

Laloosh":1vghzt2b said:

hawknation2016":1vghzt2b said:

It looked like the defense was trying to run through quicksand. K.J. is just moving very awkwardly and gingerly here. Thomas runs very oddly. Shead trips and Wagner outright falls over.

Yeah . . . uhhh, guess the field/cleats had zero effect here. :34853_doh:

Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't see it like you do. Guess that's cause for condescension.

By the way. I didn't say that the field/cleats had zero effect. Don't put words into my mouth.

Click to expand...

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

If guys are not getting traction on the turf, it's near impossible to play this game, even for the best run defense in the league. Impossible to change direction, hold your gap, shed a block, etc. I'm pissed that they weren't better prepared for the field conditions.

Footing obviously made a difference, even if they aren't slipping, they aren't moving the same way they normally would.

That said, credit to Stewart for making a great cut and credit to the Panthers blockers, they did a terrific job on that play. Look at the pop Tolbert puts on Wright, and Stewart trusts it.

I do think Wright takes on that block a lot, lot better on a decent field though.

That's some half hearted crap by Shead. Bobby shows Stewart inside thinking Shead or Earl will lock him up, but Earl is way too hasty and takes a horrible angle. And Shead, Shead actually backs away from the action initially (don't understand why) and then skips around a little before pushing over Wagner when he'd have had a shot at slowing Stewart down.

Laloosh":1ahen2am said:

Been watching that first play from scrimmage and now that I've had some time to process the loss, it feels a lot less like a slip was the problem and a lot more like a poorly executed defensive play by Seattle.

Click to expand...

You can clearly see Earl slip, so the field did have something do with it.

That doesn't excuse his terrible angle, as well as KJ's. But IMO Earl is 90% culpable on that play. His entire job as free safety is to limit plays like that.

I see Rubin getting done blowed up.

And I see Mebane getting blatantly held.

Those are the two things that break this run. The rest is just gravy (like the field was gravy).

Sgt. Largent":3o7w599e said:

Laloosh":3o7w599e said:

Been watching that first play from scrimmage and now that I've had some time to process the loss, it feels a lot less like a slip was the problem and a lot more like a poorly executed defensive play by Seattle.

Click to expand...

You can clearly see Earl slip, so the field did have something do with it.

That doesn't excuse his terrible angle, as well as KJ's. But IMO Earl is 90% culpable on that play. His entire job as free safety is to limit plays like that.

Click to expand...

Agree Sarge. And as Hasselbeck mentioned above, not the first time for Earl.

looks like rubin is held?