PFF: Why it’s not too late to fix Seahawks’ offensive line

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... ks-o-line/

Interesting ... thoughts?

As a general rule I have a hard time putting too much stock in PFF ratings because their process is opaque. They could add transparency but choose not to and that causes me to take their ratings with a huge grain of salt.

A specific problem with these sort of PFF articles is that they put too much stock on past results because they are trying to leverage their ratings. It's not reasonable to take Gilliam's early struggles at RT in his first action as the determining factor in how he is going to perform in the LT competition with significantly more experience at a more familiar position. Similarly, the guy they want us to sign in Gilliam's place is a mediocre veteran coming off a major shoulder injury and it's nuts to consider him a clear upgrade in 2016 just because they have middling PFF grades on him in past seasons.

I don't have any problem with the rookies they speculate about (Theuney, Seumalo, Skura).

So they completely ignore how Gilliam turned into our best linemen over the last few weeks of the regular season and play offs? They are giving Glowinski a low grade based on what? He played one game and did really well.

Their ratings are all over the place

The only answer is fire Tom Cable, he is the opposite of King Midas because everything he touches turns to poop. How many draft picks must he waste? This team has sent him 1,2,3,and two 4th round draft picks. At this point you have to start asking what is wrong with linemen evaluations and what is wrong with linemen coaching. Second note now that the NFL has changed the rules on cut blocks the technique that Cable coaches is also a reason to change coaches.

Most teams are like we will coach him up, but once Tommy C gets a guy he coaches him down.

PFF grades have to be taken with a grain of salt. Nowak actually had a higher grade than Lewis last year. PFF grades aren't exactly perfect. Lynch's grade was MUCH higher than Thomas Rawls'...sorry, but Lynch struggled last year. Was Lynch really the 3rd best RB in the NFL last year? I believe PFF gives credit for past performance when they grade players. Okung, for example, still gets graded higher because he was a Pro Bowler in 2012. You also have to take into account that Wilson is difficult to block for in a lot of games. He sometimes holds onto the ball longer than he should, and then he scrambles while still looking for a receiver...this is tough on the O-Line. There's also the fact that the the Hawks played some teams with really dominant front 7's last season...played the Rams twice.

I'm hoping that Lynch's retirement goes through after June 1 or May 12 or whatever, and that the Hawks use some of that $9 million in cap savings on 1 or 2 Free Agent O-Linemen. And if the Hawks spend a decent amount of draft capital on the O-Line this month, I think their line will be just fine. Picking guys like Spriggs, Ifedi, McGovern, and Dahl, and then pikcing up UDFA's like Vi Teofilo, Anthony Fabiano, Jake Brendel, and Sebastian Johansson could make a HUGE difference in the O-Line competition level in preseason the next couple of years. Wilson and Rawls would be great with even an AVERAGE line. Hopefully they'll be ranked around #14 by PFF for 2016.

One thing I just wanted to throw out there: I hope that things like picking a 5th rounder in the 2nd round do not somehow make PC/JS think they have to let a guy like Justin Britt automatically start for 4 years. I really hope that if there are guys doing better than Britt in the preseason, they let the better man start in Week 1.

Pretty sound reasoning overall. I'd have to question why they haven't signed a guy like Beatty if he's coming that cheap.

Is Beatty really bad, or are they just that high on Gilliam and/or draft picks ?

It does seem like a good year to get a solid tier 2 OT in the late first or 2nd rounds.

I think the staff is really high on guys like Gilliam and Glowinski and thats why we aren't seeing a lot of moves.

sdog1981":1otjzb7s said:

The only answer is fire Tom Cable, he is the opposite of King Midas because everything he touches turns to poop. How many draft picks must he waste? This team has sent him 1,2,3,and two 4th round draft picks. At this point you have to start asking what is wrong with linemen evaluations and what is wrong with linemen coaching. Second note now that the NFL has changed the rules on cut blocks the technique that Cable coaches is also a reason to change coaches.

Most teams are like we will coach him up, but once Tommy C gets a guy he coaches him down.

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I completely disagree with everything you said there. The Seahawks have been one of the top 3 rushing teams for years now. And Wilson is probably the most difficult QB in the NFL to block for. Look at Carpenter...mediocre on the Hawks...goes to the Jets last year and becomes one of the best Guards in the NFL. Blocking for Ryan Fitzpatrick is not remotely the same as blocking for Russell Wilson.

The jury is still out on their 3 O-Line picks from 2015. I happen to think that Mark Glowinski will be one of the better RG's in the NFL this year. Poole and Sokoli do have some potential still, and nobody expected them to be first or second-year starters.

In 2014, they gave him Justin Britt...who picks a 5th rounder in the 2nd round? I would hope that wasn't Cable's decision. They also picked Garrett Scott in the 6th round, and he had the potential to be great lineman, but happened to have a heart defect that made him lose his NFL career right before it began. Horrible story, and hardly Cable's fault.

In 2013, they gave Cable 2- 7th rounders. They weren't very careful with them and they lost both of them. Ryan Seymour who is still playing on the Giants, and Michael Bowie who is still playing on the Browns. Not Cable's fault.

In 2012, they picked ZERO O-Linemen in the draft. Not Cable's fault.

In 2010 and 2011, they gave him Okung, Moffit (turned out to have off-field issues; not Cable's fault) and Carpenter, and Cable proceeded to give them an O-Line that was good enough to take them to 2 SB's.

sdog1981":3c3xfi65 said:

The only answer is fire Tom Cable, he is the opposite of King Midas because everything he touches turns to poop. How many draft picks must he waste? This team has sent him 1,2,3,and two 4th round draft picks. At this point you have to start asking what is wrong with linemen evaluations and what is wrong with linemen coaching. Second note now that the NFL has changed the rules on cut blocks the technique that Cable coaches is also a reason to change coaches.

Most teams are like we will coach him up, but once Tommy C gets a guy he coaches him down.

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You're confusing chop blocks with cut blocks.

One of those 1st Rd Picks (Carpenter) signed a 19 million dollar contract ( 5 guaranteed). He was also injury plagued.
Britt just played in his 2nd year following a position switch. The 3rd Rd pick (Moffit) was a drug addict. Glowinski was a 4th rounder and a rookie and played well in the one game he played. Cable did turn a 7th Rd DT into a starting O-Lineman who just signed a 32 million dollar contract (14 Guaranteed). He turned Giacomini into a starting caliber RT who signed a 18 million ( 7 guaranteed) contract with the Jets. Also, Max Unger became the starting center Cable's first year. I guess Cable had nothing to do with his success either?

Hawks46":1whr2f85 said:

Pretty sound reasoning overall. I'd have to question why they haven't signed a guy like Beatty if he's coming that cheap.

Is Beatty really bad, or are they just that high on Gilliam and/or draft picks ?

It does seem like a good year to get a solid tier 2 OT in the late first or 2nd rounds.

Click to expand...

Will Beatty underwent rotator cuff surgery is November and isn't fully healed. I think he's hoping to get healthy before doing free agency visits. He definitely couldn't pass a physical right now. He's going to be a pre-training camp add on a prove it deal.

Scheme fit is a big question mark though. I'm no expert on the Giants, but their rushing attack ranked 19th, 23rd, and 29th in the past 3 years. If he comes for cheap, maybe, but I'm still leaning toward draft and develop at this point for our LTOTF.

PFF = plucked from fanny

Someting like Beatty, anyone - someone other than Britt, Lewis, Glowinski and Gilliam doesn't look too terribly bad.

Basis4day":39dxh6hc said:

sdog1981":39dxh6hc said:

The only answer is fire Tom Cable, he is the opposite of King Midas because everything he touches turns to poop. How many draft picks must he waste? This team has sent him 1,2,3,and two 4th round draft picks. At this point you have to start asking what is wrong with linemen evaluations and what is wrong with linemen coaching. Second note now that the NFL has changed the rules on cut blocks the technique that Cable coaches is also a reason to change coaches.

Most teams are like we will coach him up, but once Tommy C gets a guy he coaches him down.

Click to expand...

You're confusing chop blocks with cut blocks.

One of those 1st Rd Picks (Carpenter) signed a 19 million dollar contract ( 5 guaranteed). He was also injury plagued.
Britt just played in his 2nd year following a position switch. The 3rd Rd pick (Moffit) was a drug addict. Glowinski was a 4th rounder and a rookie and played well in the one game he played. Cable did turn a 7th Rd DT into a starting O-Lineman who just signed a 32 million dollar contract (14 Guaranteed). He turned Giacomini into a starting caliber RT who signed a 18 million ( 7 guaranteed) contract with the Jets. Also, Max Unger became the starting center Cable's first year. I guess Cable had nothing to do with his success either?

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I want you to understand one thing here.

Getting players paid by other teams is not a primary measure of success as a Seahawks fan. Maybe if you were rooting for the NFLPA as your team you'd argue that Tom Cable is great but as far as on field results go - the line has been average to awful.

I'm not saying it's all Tom Cable's fault or that he's useless but I don't think sending OL players who didn't preform very well on the Seahawks by any objective measure, to another team, speaks to coaching talent any more than market inefficiencies.

Basis4day is making a perfectly reasonable argument. There are plenty of problems but development is the least likely explanation. Contract value is a function of demand and that demand absolutely speaks to a successful developmental process.

The disconnect between how players subjectively perform on our team vs. other teams is more rationally attributed to scheme (design runs counter to pass protection statistics), injury outcomes (huge problem for us), and at least partly evaluation criteria. It's just different comparing a RG blocking for RW in Bevell/Cable's scheme with a RG blocking for Brady in McD's scheme.

McGruff":ch51w9gr said:

I think the staff is really high on guys like Gilliam and Glowinski and thats why we aren't seeing a lot of moves.

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Which is frightening to say the least.

But I will reserve full judgment until the draft. If they ignore OL until the late rounds, then... please save Russell Wilson football gods.

Hasselbeck":3um6r50g said:

Which is frightening to say the least.

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What's frightening about Gilliam and Glowinski? Glow was solid in his single appearance, agree or disagree?

I'd argue that Gilliam's athleticism and measurables match favorably against any LT in this draft. He also played significantly better as the season progressed which should be extremely encouraging for a player seeing their first NFL action.

I understand pessimism in general but think Britt/Lewis/Webb are the more obvious targets for it. I'd be optimistic about our line if we add rookie talent at RT and C.

I think the Seahawks have a better idea of what to do than PFF, personally.

This is a good draft for the OL.

AgentDib":1yrjjcyc said:

Basis4day is making a perfectly reasonable argument. There are plenty of problems but development is the least likely explanation. Contract value is a function of demand and that demand absolutely speaks to a successful developmental process.

The disconnect between how players subjectively perform on our team vs. other teams is more rationally attributed to scheme (design runs counter to pass protection statistics), injury outcomes (huge problem for us), and at least partly evaluation criteria. It's just different comparing a RG blocking for RW in Bevell/Cable's scheme with a RG blocking for Brady in McD's scheme.

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Couldn't check back on this thread for a bit. That was exactly my point for mentioning the contracts.

We can sit here as Seahawks fans and say that the O-Line is awful or that the O-Lineman are awful. But other teams are paying those very same players before they have a chance to play in their new team's scheme. That says something about what other teams see on film for our players. Even the worst FO in the league can scout better than a message board.

Which is interesting because many Hawks fans considered Okung our best O-Lineman (When healthy) and he got a garbage contract.

AgentDib":26gz4p1e said:

Hasselbeck":26gz4p1e said:

Which is frightening to say the least.

Click to expand...

What's frightening about Gilliam and Glowinski? Glow was solid in his single appearance, agree or disagree?

I'd argue that Gilliam's athleticism and measurables match favorably against any LT in this draft. He also played significantly better as the season progressed which should be extremely encouraging for a player seeing their first NFL action.

I understand pessimism in general but think Britt/Lewis/Webb are the more obvious targets for it. I'd be optimistic about our line if we add rookie talent at RT and C.

Click to expand...

Depends on what rd we're talking but generally i think that is correct. And before anyone wants to call you crazy i remind them that athleticism and technique are two different things.

The current optimistic take (I believe Rob has stated but i don't want to put words in his mouth) is that Gilliam might be better suited on the left side were he will go against more speed rushers where he is aided by his athleticism. He handled the speed rush well.

On the right side he had to deal with more power rushes which showed the issues with his overall strength.