Read between the lines: Replay changes

Attyla the Hawk

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The NFL made some apparently minor changes to instant replay that could easily lead to a significant back door introduction of radical changes in the system's application:

...owners expanded replay review, slightly, to include certain administrative matters. Items now subject to replay review that weren’t previously subject to replay review are as follows: (1) penalty enforcement; (2) proper down; (3) the spot of a foul; and (4) the status of the game clock.

The spot of foul/downs/clock additions are in fact minor. We see instances all the time where simple mistakes are made that should be avoidable.

But the first item is the elephant in the room. It doesn't merely indicate what is later described as proper penalty yardage assessment. It is loosely (perhaps intentionally) defined as enforcement including down, clock and yardage. Literally verbatim as written it includes penalty enforcement.

Which as of now, allows the result of officials at the head office (Blandino), calling down to on field refs for the purpose of generating penalties that were not called on the field.

For example, the illegal batting of the ball by KJ in the Detroit game. The changes as poorly (or well) written would give the league license to call down to the officials to assess a penalty that wasn't. It does open the door to create issues in the future where matters of subjective opinion are concerned. Illegal contact/holding penalties for example.

It's a very slippery slope. It's worth mentioning that the proposed change to the system that failed: doing away with a two list system, Reviewable plays and non reviewable plays, and replacing it with a single non reviewable play list. This is a major sea change in that anything not expressly omitted would be allowed under review. The way I'm seeing this development is a concerted effort on the part of the league to centralize penalty enforcement by replay and they're doing it in small, palatable bites.

It's very much laying the groundwork for replacing on field officiating with centralized off site officials.

Where does this impact Seattle? Well the history of the Seahawks' brand of play relative to Blandino's consistent after game reviews is incredibly poor. He's been generally very critical of how Seattle plays on the edge of the rules -- which is clearly by design. It's not a good sign for Seattle in particular if penalties can be called down from the head office. Seattle plays smart -- in the gray areas of the rules. It's a competitive advantage for us. Part of that advantage is how players can execute in real time the techniques to allow contact that doesn't cross the line ENOUGH to merit a flag.

Of course it could go the other way and start to result in some holding penalties that we seem to get ridiculously shorted on in almost every game on the defensive line. Ultimately, I think it's going to hurt bad offensive lines and physical secondaries the most if this does come to pass. Which is definitely something that would affect Seattle.
 

fenderbender123

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I don't like the idea that the league can phone the refs to tell them to throw a flag. I like the idea of being able to review penalties and non-penalties, but it should have to be challenged by the opposing team.
 

jdemps

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My understanding of this rule change is that it doesn't allow the head office to "throw a flag". It has to do with correctly setting the clock and proper spot of the ball after a penalty. 2 or 3 games last year that were affected by this last year (I think Steelers and Tampa Bay) , not the Hawks. The batted ball no call wouldn't have been changed by this ruling.
 

sutz

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I like the clock time one. I remember in Baltimore under Holmgren where they "forgot" to restart the clock once when they were supposed to and gave the Ravens essentially a free time out. I won't say categorically that it cost us the game, but it did give them extra time to settle down and continue a drive. IIRC, it was in a 2 minute drill, too, at the end of a close scoring shootout game.
 

seabowl

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sutz":2n0vwpxc said:
I like the clock time one. I remember in Baltimore under Holmgren where they "forgot" to restart the clock once when they were supposed to and gave the Ravens essentially a free time out. I won't say categorically that it cost us the game, but it did give them extra time to settle down and continue a drive. IIRC, it was in a 2 minute drill, too, at the end of a close scoring shootout game.

IMO that was the worst regular season loss we ever had. Not only did the refs mess up the clock but they also there 2 phantom PI flags. Again IMO worst regular season loss.
 

Sports Hernia

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Attyla the Hawk":1f2db0we said:
The NFL made some apparently minor changes to instant replay that could easily lead to a significant back door introduction of radical changes in the system's application:

...owners expanded replay review, slightly, to include certain administrative matters. Items now subject to replay review that weren’t previously subject to replay review are as follows: (1) penalty enforcement; (2) proper down; (3) the spot of a foul; and (4) the status of the game clock.

The spot of foul/downs/clock additions are in fact minor. We see instances all the time where simple mistakes are made that should be avoidable.

But the first item is the elephant in the room. It doesn't merely indicate what is later described as proper penalty yardage assessment. It is loosely (perhaps intentionally) defined as enforcement including down, clock and yardage. Literally verbatim as written it includes penalty enforcement.

Which as of now, allows the result of officials at the head office (Blandino), calling down to on field refs for the purpose of generating penalties that were not called on the field.

For example, the illegal batting of the ball by KJ in the Detroit game. The changes as poorly (or well) written would give the league license to call down to the officials to assess a penalty that wasn't. It does open the door to create issues in the future where matters of subjective opinion are concerned. Illegal contact/holding penalties for example.

It's a very slippery slope. It's worth mentioning that the proposed change to the system that failed: doing away with a two list system, Reviewable plays and non reviewable plays, and replacing it with a single non reviewable play list. This is a major sea change in that anything not expressly omitted would be allowed under review. The way I'm seeing this development is a concerted effort on the part of the league to centralize penalty enforcement by replay and they're doing it in small, palatable bites.

It's very much laying the groundwork for replacing on field officiating with centralized off site officials.

Where does this impact Seattle? Well the history of the Seahawks' brand of play relative to Blandino's consistent after game reviews is incredibly poor. He's been generally very critical of how Seattle plays on the edge of the rules -- which is clearly by design. It's not a good sign for Seattle in particular if penalties can be called down from the head office. Seattle plays smart -- in the gray areas of the rules. It's a competitive advantage for us. Part of that advantage is how players can execute in real time the techniques to allow contact that doesn't cross the line ENOUGH to merit a flag.

Of course it could go the other way and start to result in some holding penalties that we seem to get ridiculously shorted on in almost every game on the defensive line. Ultimately, I think it's going to hurt bad offensive lines and physical secondaries the most if this does come to pass. Which is definitely something that would affect Seattle.
I hope you are wrong. IF, what you said is true, it would lead to more "steering" of games by officiating which leads to the NFL's "desired results" scenario's where the teams with the largest fanbases (see Dallas, Pissburg, Green Bay, NE) mysteriously always get the breaks and make the playoffs even in down years.

The Dallas/Lions playoff game the year before last was a result of steering IMHO.

I hope the following posters below you is correct.
 

onanygivensunday

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The rule change clearly identifies it as the administration of penalties... not if the penalties themselves are called correctly.

No worries here.
 

fenderbender123

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Isn't throwing the flag part of the administration of a penalty? I hate the English language :(
 

AROS

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seabowl":143i858f said:
sutz":143i858f said:
I like the clock time one. I remember in Baltimore under Holmgren where they "forgot" to restart the clock once when they were supposed to and gave the Ravens essentially a free time out. I won't say categorically that it cost us the game, but it did give them extra time to settle down and continue a drive. IIRC, it was in a 2 minute drill, too, at the end of a close scoring shootout game.

IMO that was the worst regular season loss we ever had. Not only did the refs mess up the clock but they also there 2 phantom PI flags. Again IMO worst regular season loss.

Agreed. To this day, that is the most angry I have ever been after a Seahawks loss on the road during the regular season bar none. I threw such a fit my wife left the house for the rest of the day.
 

KiwiHawk

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The NFL has consistently implemented replay such that the calls need to be made on the field, even in the event none of the referees actually had a good look at the event. As ludicrous as it sounds to have a referee make a call on something that he didn't get a clear view of, and as logical as it is to use replay to get the call correct in the first place, the NFL insists that the call be made on the field *before* consulting replay.

That is a clear indication that the NFL wants replay to play 2nd-fiddle to the judgement of the officials on the field. That means no replay official will be throwing any flags.

What it means is that if there is a flag thrown, it can be challenged, reviewed, and perhaps corrected. This is a good thing. Imagine if some of the flags in XL could have been challenged - a certain holding call for instance, or an illegal block below the waist.

Our defenders play close and there is often incidental contact. However, receivers exploit that by faking a reaction to contact that doesn't happen in order to draw a flag. A mechanism that would allow us to challenge that is a good thing.
 

Tical21

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Largent80":2sef3ca5 said:
Great. More rules.
Someone gets it. Replay is absolutely ruining the viewer experience. The negatives dwarf the positives. We need far, far less replay, not more. We are nearing a point where it is going to make sense to review every play before moving on to the next one.
 

sutz

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Tical21":p6c0s03o said:
Largent80":p6c0s03o said:
Great. More rules.
Someone gets it. Replay is absolutely ruining the viewer experience. The negatives dwarf the positives. We need far, far less replay, not more. We are nearing a point where it is going to make sense to review every play before moving on to the next one.
More ad revenue for the extra time outs. ;)
 

bigskydoc

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The posters above me nailed it. This is about administration of penalties called on the field.

If the league wanted to sneak in some sort of Invisible Hand / Deus ex Machina manipulation, they would not have round filed Baltimore's proposals like they did.

-bsd
 

RichNhansom

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Why not just make everything reviewable but under the same guidelines of 2 per game unless you are correct on both snd get a 3rd.

Games where an official calls a facemask from behind the play with no clear view like the Packers game, would have been overturned and Detroit wins.

Having the ability to change the call to down by contact is a big problem for me. We seen it in the oer game at candlestick when we forced a fumble and the official called it down and even patted his but to indicate he was down before the ball came out but on the challenge review it bacame obvious the ball was out prior and rather than calling it a turn over they changed the call to down by contact. They scored on that drive and won the game 19 to 17.

We seen it again in the NFCC game when Bowman stripped the ball and they called it down by contact. It was a pretty obvious make up call but put a huge blemish on the game and 9er fans to this day try and blame the loss on that call.

Challenge anything you want but once your challenges are gone your done. Pretty simple really.
 

mrt144

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fenderbender123":fhpk0jy8 said:
Isn't throwing the flag part of the administration of a penalty? I hate the English language :(

Ornery as always. :lol:
 

kearly

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Hopefully instances of introducing uncalled penalties after the fact is extremely rare and reserved only for the most egregious cases. Otherwise, it's going to piss off a LOT of fans and up the frustration level of the viewing experience.

On the other hand, being able to overturn a blatantly bad penalty call would be a welcome change.

One change I'd like to see that's very minor. Make it so that the automatic scoring challenges can occur after a PAT attempt. That way, they can do the automatic review during commercial breaks and it will remove 5 minutes of wasted time from every game.

Ultimately the goal should be to get the call right as frequently as possible. However, there is also a balance to strike with the encumbrance this places on the game. Finding ways to do more challenges during commercial breaks would be one way to help the issue.
 

KiwiHawk

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The best implementation of replay would be to allow the referees to call for a replay in order to make the correct call in the first place. They are human and make mistakes, but they know when they didn't see something clearly and would like to get a better view. Currently the rules don't allow them to get that better view - with the possible exception of the home-team's in-stadium replays - before making a potentially game-changing call.

Forcing them to make a call when they may have missed something just leads to undermining the credibility and authority of the referee which leads to calls for more things to be replayed because people don't think they can trust the official's call.

Empowering the official to make the correct call in the first place makes his ruling definite and indisputable and his authority unquestionable. Give them replay as a tool to use to do their job properly rather than reserving it to second-guess them.
 

sutz

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KiwiHawk":230ve0wb said:
The best implementation of replay would be to allow the referees to call for a replay in order to make the correct call in the first place. They are human and make mistakes, but they know when they didn't see something clearly and would like to get a better view. Currently the rules don't allow them to get that better view - with the possible exception of the home-team's in-stadium replays - before making a potentially game-changing call.

Forcing them to make a call when they may have missed something just leads to undermining the credibility and authority of the referee which leads to calls for more things to be replayed because people don't think they can trust the official's call.

Empowering the official to make the correct call in the first place makes his ruling definite and indisputable and his authority unquestionable. Give them replay as a tool to use to do their job properly rather than reserving it to second-guess them.
I'm good with that, in fact I was kind of hoping that's what the change meant. Give the head ref a red flag of his own when there is doubt about a call and review it. I'm reasonably sure that in most of those 'conferences' we see, there is back and forth about who had the best view and is more sure of the call. Maybe instead of huddling on the field, just check the replay. I'm not a big fan of how baseball is doing it, but in many cases on the football field, something similar might work.

When they first did replay, people hated the 'eye in the sky' method, so they dumped it. After the 'helmet' game in NY it was brought back with the current system where the ref goes under the hood to make the call. I'd go for a hybrid system.
 

chris98251

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They keep adding more aspects and our supposedly 2 to 3 minutes will take 10 to 15 minutes to get sorted out, get to many cooks in the kitchen and nothing comes out right. Also history has told us even with review it seems the guys looking at it don't seem to interpret the rules right many times based on the comments by ex officials on broadcasts.
 
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