Zone D vs Man

seabowl

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I haven't looked at the tape enough to be exact however it seems so that zone coverage for us is a problem now that teams have started to use quick passes/slants/bubble screens to diminish the pass rush. I personally would like to see more man coverage to combat the quick passes and think our players are athletic enough to be able to be successfully play this kind of D scheme more than they have. I hate seeing opposing players get open easy and planting themselves within the zone where no Hawk is within 5 yards. Does anyone else see this and feel the same way?
 

j hawk

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Yeah, not a fan of the zone D. I think we have great people to go man. I think it also makes the QB hold the ball longer which can help our pass rush and cause more turn overs. Switching back and fourth is good hopefully using more man. To me the zone is similar to the prevent, keep everything in front of you (as the other team marches down the field). Live by the zone-die by the zone.
 

sutz

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Keep in mind is pre-season. They won't show all the looks and schemes just yet. ;)
 

scutterhawk

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Yep, opposing Offenses have adjusted to taking what they can easily get, and then push for more yards after the catch.
Playing ZONE in the Secondary isn't too much a rub, but allowing the Dink & Dunk, with the belief that if you keep all the plays in front of you, you will hold the edge...It's no longer working... it's time to reboot.
 

RussB

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Yup, know exactly what you mean. Whenever they sit in a cover 3 zone they get picked apart most of the time for long gains.Teams have figured out how to beat it. Whenever they go man to man though it shuts the other team down.

They need to start mixing in some type of other defenses to throw offenses off, like for example call a cover 3 zone and man up a tall corner like shead or browner against the TE so they cant attack the seams. Maybe start calling more cover 2 zones also , cover 3 is figured out at this point.
 

Sports Hernia

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Yep, not a fan of zone defense. It usually leads to the TE's being wide open and the backs out of the backfield being wide open.
 

FlyingGreg

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I've been fussing about this the last few seasons. Teams know how to attack our soft spots now. They still have to have the talent to do it, but our defense doesn't look as impenetrable as it used to.

The key to our scheme success is pass rush - we have to collapse the pocket quickly so QBs don't have time to think.

I don't think we will see any wholesale changes. For the "it's just pre-season" crowd, we don't really scheme much in the regular season, either. Pete's philosophy is here we are, beat us. They were slow to adjust to the obvious weaknesses vs. tight ends last season.

If I was an offensive coordinator, I would dink and dunk and dump off to the RB's all game long. We can't stop it. The Pats perfected it against us in Super Bowl 49.
 

RussB

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FlyingGreg":vcnmq2f6 said:
I've been fussing about this the last few seasons. Teams know how to attack our soft spots now. They still have to have the talent to do it, but our defense doesn't look as impenetrable as it used to.

The key to our scheme success is pass rush - we have to collapse the pocket quickly so QBs don't have time to think.

I don't think we will see any wholesale changes. For the "it's just pre-season" crowd, we don't really scheme much in the regular season, either. Pete's philosophy is here we are, beat us. They were slow to adjust to the obvious weaknesses vs. tight ends last season.

If I was an offensive coordinator, I would dink and dunk and dump off to the RB's all game long. We can't stop it. The Pats perfected it against us in Super Bowl 49.
So true, ive seen so many more teams try the dink and dunk approach against the LOB since then. Kam needs to start laying hits on those boys to make them think twice about catching those passes. Would like to see a 46 with kam in the box to lay the wood on anyone who catches the short pass.
 

vin.couve12

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The cover 3 is normally fine. We are currently without THE GUY that normally can call out what an offense is trying to do in Kam. What's absolutely true though, is that the cover 3 defense is inherently weak against the short pass. When Kam is in there, he helps mitigate that due to his understanding of offensive formations and angles. Cover 3 still has that weakness though.

Don't be a fan or not a fan of zone though. Zones have different emphasis and try to accomplish different things. We run 3 deep, 4 short, thus putting emphasis on deep coverage, which concedes some short passes. If you're worried about short passes, you go cover 2 where you have 5 short zones and only 2 deep. We don't run it that often, but we could if we so choose.

One of the problems with man coverage is that if one of your guys loses, then he's running a lot more free if he can get some RAC. Often you still have two safeties over the top or at least one, but they still have to track that and get there.

Every defense has it's weakness, we just don't varry a lot.

Speaking of variation, the cover 3 has quite a few variants in it's own.

All last game we went with the same exact cover 3 each time. Both the MLB and WLB were in short zones. We have other styles where Kam will come up and take Wright's short zone (my favorite) and Wright will bail to the flat. There are robber coverages where the safeties disguise swapping deep for short or deep for flat. This is where you'll see Kam bail deep and Earl come up short. There are also some others, but most revolve around Kam being able to play mulitple zones, from deep to short to flat. He's he real cog, IMO.

One thing about man coverage is that if an offense identifies man coverage, particularly with pre snap motion, you'll start to see rub routes that you just can't stop. Vets like Brady eat it alive.

There is always a kryptonite. I'd like to see better, more appropriate mixture of play calling based on down and distance, but I thought Richard had a lot of learning to do last year. When inside the 10 or there abouts, I'd like to see more cover 2. That Cincy game last year was proof of it. Kam or Wright releases the TE in their short zone and the FS or CB is too far away to get there and they get two TDs. The spacing for the red zone is better for cover 2, IMO. However, if you make a habit of it, other teams will adjust...such as running a play where you send your slot on a post pattern between the safeties and send your wideouts on flag routes away from those same two safeties, They'll have to choose and they can't cover all 3.

There's always a weakness.
 

RussB

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vin.couve12":3emy4e93 said:
The cover 3 is normally fine. We are currently without THE GUY that normally can call out what an offense is trying to do in Kam. What's absolutely true though, is that the cover 3 defense is inherently weak against the short pass. When Kam is in there, he helps mitigate that due to his understanding of offensive formations and angles. Cover 3 still has that weakness though.

Don't be a fan or not a fan of zone though. Zones have different emphasis and try to accomplish different things. We run 3 deep, 4 short, thus putting emphasis on deep coverage, which concedes some short passes. If you're worried about short passes, you go cover 2 where you have 5 short zones and only 2 deep. We don't run it that often, but we could if we so choose.

One of the problems with man coverage is that if one of your guys loses, then he's running a lot more free if he can get some RAC. Often you still have two safeties over the top or at least one, but they still have to track that and get there.

Every defense has it's weakness, we just don't varry a lot.

Speaking of variation, the cover 3 has quite a few variants in it's own.

All last game we went with the same exact cover 3 each time. Both the MLB and WLB were in short zones. We have other styles where Kam will come up and take Wright's short zone (my favorite) and Wright will bail to the flat. There are robber coverages where the safeties disguise swapping deep for short or deep for flat. This is where you'll see Kam bail deep and Earl come up short. There are also some others, but most revolve around Kam being able to play mulitple zones, from deep to short to flat. He's he real cog, IMO.

One thing about man coverage is that if an offense identifies man coverage, particularly with pre snap motion, you'll start to see rub routes that you just can't stop. Vets like Brady eat it alive.

There is always a kryptonite. I'd like to see better, more appropriate mixture of play calling based on down and distance, but I thought Richard had a lot of learning to do last year. When inside the 10 or there abouts, I'd like to see more cover 2. That Cincy game last year was proof of it. Kam or Wright releases the TE in their short zone and the FS or CB is too far away to get there and they get two TDs. The spacing for the red zone is better for cover 2, IMO. However, if you make a habit of it, other teams will adjust...such as running a play where you send your slot on a post pattern between the safeties and send your wideouts on flag routes away from those same two safeties, They'll have to choose and they can't cover all 3.

There's always a weakness.
YES, more cover 2 . Especially in the red zone in my opinion,
 

Jville

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Interesting thoughts.

It seems to me that their player evaluations have been made within their traditional defensive schemes. I have not noticed any Gary Patterson style influence on preseason experimentation. If the experimentation is there, I guess I am just missing it. I expected to see obvious experimentation with Brandon Browner last Thursday. I didn't see that. Maybe Kris Richard will show something different this upcoming Thursday verses the Cowboys.

The question I have is whether Carroll's primary defense is or is not in transition?

Does Pete have any actual interest in including what Gary Patterson uses?

attackgroups.jpg
 

vin.couve12

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Sure, but like I said, you'll start to see those posts and flags to make the safties choose if we just do that all the time. We could throw cover 2 buc in there. That's where the MLB bails to a deeper zone to cover that natural gap between the safeties in a standard cover 2. But what are you doing at that point? You're saying 3 deep and 4 short and that almost makes it a cover 3 where they'll dump it off short again. Granted, it's better geometry to cover that TE seem route, but it still has an inherent weakness. I too would like to see more cover 2 in the RZ, but again, poker doesn't lend well to showing your hand. You gotta mix up your strategies, but do so appropriately.
 

Jville

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vin.couve12":3ryj1a9n said:
Sure, but like I said, you'll start to see those posts and flags to make the safties choose if we just do that all the time. We could throw cover 2 buc in there. That's where the MLB bails to a deeper zone to cover that natural gap between the safeties in a standard cover 2. But what are you doing at that point? You're saying 3 deep and 4 short and that almost makes it a cover 3 where they'll dump it off short again. Granted, it's better geometry to cover that TE seem route, but it still has an inherent weakness. I too would like to see more cover 2 in the RZ, but again, poker doesn't lend well to showing your hand. You gotta mix up your strategies, but do so appropriately.

So, given the defenses accumulated experience, there should also be opportunities to vary the mix of strategies and personnel from week to week to exploit weekly match ups.

That's something I would like to see expanded on in 2016.
 

dogorama

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RussB":2a6ictlf said:
vin.couve12":2a6ictlf said:
The cover 3 is normally fine. We are currently without THE GUY that normally can call out what an offense is trying to do in Kam. What's absolutely true though, is that the cover 3 defense is inherently weak against the short pass. When Kam is in there, he helps mitigate that due to his understanding of offensive formations and angles. Cover 3 still has that weakness though.

Don't be a fan or not a fan of zone though. Zones have different emphasis and try to accomplish different things. We run 3 deep, 4 short, thus putting emphasis on deep coverage, which concedes some short passes. If you're worried about short passes, you go cover 2 where you have 5 short zones and only 2 deep. We don't run it that often, but we could if we so choose.

One of the problems with man coverage is that if one of your guys loses, then he's running a lot more free if he can get some RAC. Often you still have two safeties over the top or at least one, but they still have to track that and get there.

Every defense has it's weakness, we just don't varry a lot.

Speaking of variation, the cover 3 has quite a few variants in it's own.

All last game we went with the same exact cover 3 each time. Both the MLB and WLB were in short zones. We have other styles where Kam will come up and take Wright's short zone (my favorite) and Wright will bail to the flat. There are robber coverages where the safeties disguise swapping deep for short or deep for flat. This is where you'll see Kam bail deep and Earl come up short. There are also some others, but most revolve around Kam being able to play mulitple zones, from deep to short to flat. He's he real cog, IMO.

One thing about man coverage is that if an offense identifies man coverage, particularly with pre snap motion, you'll start to see rub routes that you just can't stop. Vets like Brady eat it alive.

There is always a kryptonite. I'd like to see better, more appropriate mixture of play calling based on down and distance, but I thought Richard had a lot of learning to do last year. When inside the 10 or there abouts, I'd like to see more cover 2. That Cincy game last year was proof of it. Kam or Wright releases the TE in their short zone and the FS or CB is too far away to get there and they get two TDs. The spacing for the red zone is better for cover 2, IMO. However, if you make a habit of it, other teams will adjust...such as running a play where you send your slot on a post pattern between the safeties and send your wideouts on flag routes away from those same two safeties, They'll have to choose and they can't cover all 3.

There's always a weakness.
YES, more cover 2 . Especially in the red zone in my opinion,

I think you have to remember that a variation of the cover-3 will automatically become like a cover-2 in the red zone because of the shortened field. That is why you will often see opposing teams dink and dunk down the field only to stall out and pull up short for a field goal.

I think vincouve has it down where he states that every scheme has its kryptonite i.e. there is no perfect D, this is not an exact science, and it's like the analogy to poker where you are looking for a tell.
 

kearly

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You wonder how much this style of coverage has to do with Seattle's amazingly high rate of blown 4th quarter leads under Pete Carroll. Seattle has had the #1 scoring defense for four years running, yet they rank 31st in preventing blown 4th quarter leads during that same period. It goes without saying that this is unprecedented in NFL history.

Seems like Seattle's defense has holes that are tough to exploit without practice, but once you see the defense a few times you start learning some tricks to get cheap points whenever you want them.
 

FlyingGreg

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kearly":20fahl26 said:
You wonder how much this style of coverage has to do with Seattle's amazingly high rate of blown 4th quarter leads under Pete Carroll. Seattle has had the #1 scoring defense for four years running, yet they rank 31st in preventing blown 4th quarter leads during that same period. It goes without saying that this is unprecedented in NFL history.

Seems like Seattle's defense has holes that are tough to exploit without practice, but once you see the defense a few times you start learning some tricks to get cheap points whenever you want them.

Yes. Carolina has solved it now, for instance.
 
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seabowl

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I saw a little more man this last pre season game. The D played well in man if I remember correctly and hope we donors of it.
 

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This team should be using man free the majority of snaps, until teams can prove they can beat it.

Teams will then try to run stack & bunch w/pick routes to get them out of man free, but Seattle is so big & physical at corner you won't have that much success going that route either, because the receivers will not want to get blasted play after play. This may sound familiar because this is what the team did under Quinn.

Quinn would blend in some press-bail cover 3, or sometimes play man on the outside with zone underneath to keep things varied, but man free was when the team was, and still is imo at it's best.

Richard likes his soft cover 3, you're just going to have to get used to it. Red Zone D will be critical. They can bend, but they can't break. It is frustrating to watch as a fan, it's death by a thousand paper cuts, but in the end the opponent usually has very few, if any explosive plays, and little to show for it on the scoreboard.
 

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The Seahawks regularly mix man and zone. Man can be very effective if you have the right personnel, w/zone you can see the play developing which is much more effective against the run. Personally, I would like to see more press, force to an outside release, that is where we have been most effective.
 

Thepeelsessions

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I'm not a fan of zone at all. I don't understand why Richard doesn't use much man. After coaching his boys up for Quinn's man scheme which became the toughest secondary in the league, it makes no sense why he is straying from that. I really hope he is saving something for the regular season, but I'm not getting my hopes up. That's why I wasn't a fan of hiring Richard for D coordinator. I like a more of a big boy/badass style who specializes in the front 7, a la Quinn.
 
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