Formation statistics

I posted this in another post, but I thought some of you would appreciate it.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/team/splits/_/n ... e-seahawks

Passing formation statistics:

BY OFFENSIVE FORMATION ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE
Shotgun 40 25 62.5 235 6.0 0.0 24 1 2.5 1 2.5 2 5 77.1
2 Backs Split 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0
I-formation 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 0.0
Lone Setback 34 20 58.8 173 5.6 0.0 24 1 2.9 1 2.9 3 18 72.1
BY WR FORMATION ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE
2 Wide Receivers 3 2 66.7 5 6.0 0.0 11 0 0.0 0 0.0 1 13 82.6
3 Wide Receivers 24 14 58.3 127 5.5 0.0 24 1 4.2 1 4.2 2 5 70.1
4+ Wide Receivers 15 10 66.7 101 6.7 0.0 19 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 85.7
BY TE FORMATION ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A YDS/G LONG TD TD% INT INT% SACK YDSL RATE
0 Tight Ends 13 8 61.5 81 6.2 0.0 19 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 79.3
1 Tight End 27 17 63.0 158 6.0 0.0 24 1 3.7 1 3.7 2 5 76.6
2 Tight Ends 1 0 0.0 -13 0.0 0.0 0 0 0.0 0 0.0 1 13 39.6
3+ Tight Ends 2 2 100.0 14 7.0 0.0 7 0 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 95.8

Running formation statistics.

BY OFFENSIVE FORMATION ATT YDS YD/A LONG 20+ TD YDS/G FUM FUML 1DN
Shotgun 18 69 3.8 11 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2 Backs Split 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
I-formation 5 9 1.8 6 0 0 0.0 1 1 1
Lone Setback 22 89 4.0 12 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
BY WR FORMATION ATT YDS YD/A LONG 20+ TD YDS/G FUM FUML 1DN
2 Wide Receivers 9 36 4.0 12 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
3 Wide Receivers 14 59 4.2 11 0 0 0.0 1 1 1
4+ Wide Receivers 5 16 3.2 9 0 0 0.0 0 0 0
BY TE FORMATION ATT YDS YD/A LONG 20+ TD YDS/G FUM FUML 1DN
0 Tight Ends 6 10 1.7 6 0 0 0.0 1 1 0
1 Tight End 14 67 4.8 11 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
2 Tight Ends 12 35 2.9 12 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
3+ Tight Ends 0 0 0.0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 0

These stats are always a good case study in terms of what it shows when we're in certain formations. We have tendencies and kind of telegraph what we're going to do when we come out in 2 WR sets or even 2 TE sets.

It's been the same in previous years and what it shows is that the OC is lacking in his mixture of how he calls plays and, specifically, what he shows in his tendencies per formation. This can severely tip the hand to any educated defender and especially so with defenders who are good at recognizing patterns (not WR patterns, but geometric/mathematical/etc).

EDIT:

To add to this, you show tendencies in formations alone, yes, but there are also many players who can memorize what plays you run out of each formation and therefore give themselves options for how they are going to react per formation. They'll look for pre-snap keys and anything else that will help them to know what's coming. You can't just simply react in the NFL. That's where it really does become NFL (Not For Long).

This is my biggest gripe with the offensive coaching staff. Cable talks all the time about how he doesn't like college linemen due to the proliferation of the spread. Yet here is this team running out of shotgun almost all of the dang time, you know like a college spread offence. Who on that side of the ball can stand up in the room and say things have gotten out of whack. We have Bevell calling formations that Cable's linemen are not very good at playing. It is almost like the Oline is a team unto its self with little or no input from Bevell. I wish I could say Bevell sucks or Cable sucks, but more and more it looks like they suck together. Something is not right with the coaching on offence.

sdog1981":1p1c45sg said:

This is my biggest gripe with the offensive coaching staff. Cable talks all the time about how he doesn't like college linemen due to the proliferation of the spread. Yet here is this team running out of shotgun almost all of the dang time, you know like a college spread offence. Who on that side of the ball can stand up in the room and say things have gotten out of whack. We have Bevell calling formations that Cable's linemen are not very good at playing. It is almost like the Oline is a team unto its self with little or no input from Bevell. I wish I could say Bevell sucks or Cable sucks, but more and more it looks like they suck together. Something is not right with the coaching on offence.

Click to expand...

I don't know that you have that twisted. Players have regularly given Cable props for halftime adjustments and even making plays up from scratch. Cable is responsible for teaching them zone blocking in the running game and the correct spacing, hand placement, sets, and kick drops in the passing game. He has some input in the offensive gameplan, but he doesn't call the plays. That's Bevell.

That's not to say that Cable is absolved from anything. In ideology, I think turning Sokoli into an OL in the first place was damn near retarded. You're talking about the only 4 sigma athlete ever recorded (Megatron and JJ Watt are 3 Sigma to put that in perspective) and is a player who had only been playing football for so long given being a foreigner transplant. So what do they do? Have him try and conquer a more technical position in OL instead of trying to unleash that ability as a 3T/5T hybrid where there is a lot less thinking.

GOTdamn brilliant.

What if we swapped Bevell and Cable's jobs for a game? I know that sports doesnt work this way, but i'd pay 100 bucks to see it.

vin.couve12":2rul1flb said:

That's not to say that Cable is absolved from anything. In ideology, I think turning Sokoli into an OL in the first place was damn near retarded. You're talking about the only 4 sigma athlete ever recorded (Megatron and JJ Watt are 3 Sigma to put that in perspective) and is a player who had only been playing football for so long given being a foreigner transplant. So what do they do? Have him try and conquer a more technical position in OL instead of trying to unleash that ability as a 3T/5T hybrid where there is a lot less thinking.

GOTdamn brilliant.

Click to expand...

I don't think any player on this team would throw Cable under the bus, they are loyal like that. Until 2011 Cable was run out of town in 3 years or less at every coaching stop and every level since 1997.

The only time I could see where Cable was around any kind of legendary line coach was the one year he was with the Falcons in 2006. Good ol Alex Gibbs.

So the question is this:

The Seahawks have a track record of having a very solid run game.

A lot of that success was attributed to Lynch but last year our run game seemed to continue with Rawls.

How much of the run game success should be attributed to Bevell?

It seems unfair to call him out for all the obvious mistakes he makes but give him none of the credit for what seemed (before this year) to be the consistent success at the side of the offense.

How much of the run game is a produce of Bevell's creation, how much Cable's and how much someone else?

You know I saw the same kind of grumbling last year about how Bevell's offense was so predictable, how it showed tendencies so that the defense knew what was coming, blah, blah, blah.

So what happened? That same "mundane" offense went out and lit it up as the top yardage and scoring offense 7 weeks or so in a row. If they were so darn predictable, how could they do this?

I don't think these numbers mean anything anyhow. So we've favored some sets over others through 2 games. Big whoop. Doesn't mean we'll do the same the next 2 games. I'm sure our own health issues and what we're trying to exploit in the opposing defense also weighs heavily into those patterns.

I'd also guess you would find the same trends in most teams around the league. Those statistics are nice to peruse and thanks for digging for them, but in this context I think they have as much substance as Geraldo's vault.

TwistedHusky":25tucgo4 said:

So the question is this:

The Seahawks have a track record of having a very solid run game.

A lot of that success was attributed to Lynch but last year our run game seemed to continue with Rawls.

How much of the run game success should be attributed to Bevell?

It seems unfair to call him out for all the obvious mistakes he makes but give him none of the credit for what seemed (before this year) to be the consistent success at the side of the offense.

How much of the run game is a produce of Bevell's creation, how much Cable's and how much someone else?

Click to expand...

That is why things are so confusing. What Cable looks for is not what types of formations or plays Bevell calls. Right now the offense is like when two cats get into a fight and they kind of turn into one disjointed rolling ball of fur. Does the ball move in the right direction? Yes. Is it the most efficient way to move? No.

Revisit blocking from 2015 from a blocking perspective. Lynch got the worst blocking of his career from an OL that had only been a 5 man unit for one week due to the theme of competition overruling continuity from man to man on the OL. A change was made at center and, after a period of weeks, Rawls was getting some of the biggest running lanes any Hawk RB has gotten since Alexander. Many of the holes Rawls got during the time he was healthy were a thing of beauty. Rawls definitely took advantage, but this season you're seeing Rawls get the early 2015 treatment where he's got at least one, but often two defenders in the backfield starring him down with no where to go.

I don't know that any personnel changes will be made along the OL this season other than Ifedi getting healthy, but early season 2016 blocking is a lot like early season 2015 with the exception of better pass blocking outside of LT.

vin.couve12":3btrvpl4 said:

Revisit blocking from 2015 from a blocking perspective. Lynch got the worst blocking of his career from an OL that had only been a 5 man unit for one week due to the theme of competition overruling continuity from man to man on the OL. A change was made at center and, after a period of weeks, Rawls was getting some of the biggest running lanes any Hawk RB has gotten since Alexander. Many of the holes Rawls got during the time he was healthy were a thing of beauty. Rawls definitely took advantage, but this season you're seeing Rawls get the early 2015 treatment where he's got at least one, but often two defenders in the backfield starring him down with no where to go.

I don't know that any personnel changes will be made along the OL this season other than Ifedi getting healthy, but early season 2016 blocking is a lot like early season 2015 with the exception of better pass blocking outside of LT.

Click to expand...

That is by far the No. 1 reason we've stumbled out of the gate again. It's like we're in a time warp back a year with this line. But Cable whipped them into shape before and he can do it again. Question is will they be better skilled for executing the run or the pass?

Siouxhawk":1cpiuw2n said:

You know I saw the same kind of grumbling last year about how Bevell's offense was so predictable, how it showed tendencies so that the defense knew what was coming, blah, blah, blah.

So what happened? That same "mundane" offense went out and lit it up as the top yardage and scoring offense 7 weeks or so in a row. If they were so darn predictable, how could they do this?

I don't think these numbers mean anything anyhow. So we've favored some sets over others through 2 games. Big whoop. Doesn't mean we'll do the same the next 2 games. I'm sure our own health issues and what we're trying to exploit in the opposing defense also weighs heavily into those patterns.

I'd also guess you would find the same trends in most teams around the league. Those statistics are nice to peruse and thanks for digging for them, but in this context I think they have as much substance as Geraldo's vault.

Click to expand...

That wasn't the same mundane offense by any means. There wasn't a huge increase in 3 WR sets and more passing, as many were saying, but you were seeing better execution and better mixture in terms of how plays were called from play to play. You'd see play action from a 3 WR set after seeing the run earlier in the game from the same formation that sets up the linebackers and safeties to actually bite on it. You'd see less play action on 3rd and long. You saw more Doug in the slot than the previous year. You saw more of Kearse taking on the role they had slotted for Graham, and you also had a real relative unknown in Lockett that no one accounted for. There are a lot of folks who would tell you different, even Pete himself, but the single biggest improvement came from continuity and execution along the OL. I've gone through these same stats back to 2012. If you wanted to point to anything formation you'd say that we ran more I-Form in 2013, but OTOH, we had something special with Mike Rob being Lynch's eyes (from the horses mouth). It's not apples to apples so to speak because personnel varies during those years and players, like Baldwin, inherently improve leaps and bounds.

While I would agree that there are tendencies throughout all OCs, there is a cognizant effort from all OCs and DCs around the league to disguise and confuse and for good reason. There are only so many plays, so many defenses, so many zones, so many types of blocking. It's finite. This is the NFL and there is NO TEAM that is all together so much greater than the other that you can just go out and play like Madden and do what you want.

For what it's worth, this is not intended to be a fire Bevell thread. We can't at this point. The season would be lost from sheer learning curve alone. What this thread is supposed to be is a look at correlation to formation. I admit that it's not exactly causation.

vin.couve12":1cmwuh2y said:

Siouxhawk":1cmwuh2y said:

You know I saw the same kind of grumbling last year about how Bevell's offense was so predictable, how it showed tendencies so that the defense knew what was coming, blah, blah, blah.

So what happened? That same "mundane" offense went out and lit it up as the top yardage and scoring offense 7 weeks or so in a row. If they were so darn predictable, how could they do this?

I don't think these numbers mean anything anyhow. So we've favored some sets over others through 2 games. Big whoop. Doesn't mean we'll do the same the next 2 games. I'm sure our own health issues and what we're trying to exploit in the opposing defense also weighs heavily into those patterns.

I'd also guess you would find the same trends in most teams around the league. Those statistics are nice to peruse and thanks for digging for them, but in this context I think they have as much substance as Geraldo's vault.

Click to expand...

That wasn't the same mundane offense by any means. There wasn't a huge increase in 3 WR sets and more passing, as many were saying, but you were seeing better execution and better mixture in terms of how plays were called from play to play. You'd see play action from a 3 WR set after seeing the run earlier in the game from the same formation that sets up the linebackers and safeties to actually bit on it. You'd see less play action on 3rd and long. You saw more Doug in the slot than the previous year. You saw more of Kearse taking on the role they had slotted for Graham, and you also had a real relative unknown in Lockett that no one accounted for. There are a lot of folks who would tell you different, even Pete himself, but the single biggest improvement came from continuity and execution along the OL. I've gone through these same stats back to 2012. If you wanted to point to anything formation you'd say that we ran more I-Form in 2013, but OTOH, we had something special with Mike Rob being Lynch's eyes (from the horses mouth). It's not apples to apples so to speak because personnel varries during those years and players, like Baldwin, inherently improve leaps and bounds.

While I would agree that there are tendancies throughout all OCs, there is a cognizant effort from all OCs and DCs around the league to disguise and confuse and for good reason. There are only so many plays, so many defenses, so many zones, so many types of blocking. It's finite. This is the NFL and there is NO TEAM that is all together so much greater than the other that you can just go out and play like Madden and do what the hell you want.

For what it's worth, this is not intended to be a fire Bevell thread. We can't at this point. The season would be lost from sheer learning curve alone. What this thread is supposed to be is a look at correlation to formation. I admit that it's not exactly causation.

Click to expand...

I think we're speaking the same language here, vin. Although you are much more analytical than me, I concede.

What we agree upon is that this offense has shown a propensity to turn it on as early as last season. What follows is that they can do it again. All of the chess moves and innovative sets that we observed last year are still in the toolbox, ready to flash again when the head carpenter gives his go-ahead nod.

TwistedHusky":1hqkf9eh said:

So the question is this:

The Seahawks have a track record of having a very solid run game.

A lot of that success was attributed to Lynch but last year our run game seemed to continue with Rawls.

How much of the run game success should be attributed to Bevell?

It seems unfair to call him out for all the obvious mistakes he makes but give him none of the credit for what seemed (before this year) to be the consistent success at the side of the offense.

How much of the run game is a produce of Bevell's creation, how much Cable's and how much someone else?

Click to expand...

I posted this once or twice before, but one of my high school coaches was an OL that spent time with the Raiders once upon a time. We had some early season struggles and he was given the reigns. He got us all taking a knee in a big team huddle and gave this great speech about continuity in that he was going to pick some starters and some second stringers and stop messing around with all the player swapping and player movement and what not. We improved as a team to a large extent, because we sort of stopped playing as individuals and started playing like an actual team. A team that knew each other, had each other's backs, and could anticipate even sometimes without any communication just simply because you knew the man next to you.

Pros and Cons:

The theme about competition is really the single best roster building tool that the Seahawks have had and it's shown bigtime. The amount of UDFAs and late round picks that have made this team and played huge roles is really astounding from a traditional team building aspect.

However, we take that competition all the way through to week 4 of the preseason, which inherently takes away from team continuity. I think it was Monday....I got a bit of a kick out of Pete actually using the word continuity when talking about the OL when asked about some OL questions in that he thought they did a pretty good job of it through most of the preseason as it pertains to the the starters and he's right. I think the big difference this year though, is we have 4 of the 5 linemen in new positions and 2 of them are new players to the team entirely. It's really only been 4 weeks.

Particularly when we get Ifedi back (preseason starter), I'm expecting some bigger returns on this investment. JMHO and I could absolutely be wrong. I'm not sure about LT at this point, but I like most of those guys there.

Siouxhawk":kr7ei5yp said:

vin.couve12":kr7ei5yp said:

Siouxhawk":kr7ei5yp said:

You know I saw the same kind of grumbling last year about how Bevell's offense was so predictable, how it showed tendencies so that the defense knew what was coming, blah, blah, blah.

So what happened? That same "mundane" offense went out and lit it up as the top yardage and scoring offense 7 weeks or so in a row. If they were so darn predictable, how could they do this?

I don't think these numbers mean anything anyhow. So we've favored some sets over others through 2 games. Big whoop. Doesn't mean we'll do the same the next 2 games. I'm sure our own health issues and what we're trying to exploit in the opposing defense also weighs heavily into those patterns.

I'd also guess you would find the same trends in most teams around the league. Those statistics are nice to peruse and thanks for digging for them, but in this context I think they have as much substance as Geraldo's vault.

Click to expand...

That wasn't the same mundane offense by any means. There wasn't a huge increase in 3 WR sets and more passing, as many were saying, but you were seeing better execution and better mixture in terms of how plays were called from play to play. You'd see play action from a 3 WR set after seeing the run earlier in the game from the same formation that sets up the linebackers and safeties to actually bit on it. You'd see less play action on 3rd and long. You saw more Doug in the slot than the previous year. You saw more of Kearse taking on the role they had slotted for Graham, and you also had a real relative unknown in Lockett that no one accounted for. There are a lot of folks who would tell you different, even Pete himself, but the single biggest improvement came from continuity and execution along the OL. I've gone through these same stats back to 2012. If you wanted to point to anything formation you'd say that we ran more I-Form in 2013, but OTOH, we had something special with Mike Rob being Lynch's eyes (from the horses mouth). It's not apples to apples so to speak because personnel varries during those years and players, like Baldwin, inherently improve leaps and bounds.

While I would agree that there are tendancies throughout all OCs, there is a cognizant effort from all OCs and DCs around the league to disguise and confuse and for good reason. There are only so many plays, so many defenses, so many zones, so many types of blocking. It's finite. This is the NFL and there is NO TEAM that is all together so much greater than the other that you can just go out and play like Madden and do what the hell you want.

For what it's worth, this is not intended to be a fire Bevell thread. We can't at this point. The season would be lost from sheer learning curve alone. What this thread is supposed to be is a look at correlation to formation. I admit that it's not exactly causation.

Click to expand...

I think we're speaking the same language here, vin. Although you are much more analytical than me, I concede.

What we agree upon is that this offense has shown a propensity to turn it on as early as last season. What follows is that they can do it again. All of the chess moves and innovative sets that we observed last year are still in the toolbox, ready to flash again when the head carpenter gives his go-ahead nod.

Click to expand...

Yep, I think so too. One of the things that really spurred this thread was an ESPN writer claiming that 3 WR sets would fix the offense. If he did his research (per the ESPN site no less), we've done more 3 WR sets than any since 2014. We haven't really been more I-form variant oriented since 2013.

November and December, Hawks are 26-6 in the Wilson era. That's an average of 6.5 wins to 1.5 loses in those months each year.

I think this team takes about 8 games to warmup before they start to peak. The whole team will be cohesive by then especially with a revamp O-line. The defense will be hungry and smelling blood.

If they don't dominate those months, then something needs to change.

sdog1981":3e0q3pom said:

vin.couve12":3e0q3pom said:

That's not to say that Cable is absolved from anything. In ideology, I think turning Sokoli into an OL in the first place was damn near retarded. You're talking about the only 4 sigma athlete ever recorded (Megatron and JJ Watt are 3 Sigma to put that in perspective) and is a player who had only been playing football for so long given being a foreigner transplant. So what do they do? Have him try and conquer a more technical position in OL instead of trying to unleash that ability as a 3T/5T hybrid where there is a lot less thinking.

GOTdamn brilliant.

Click to expand...

I don't think any player on this team would throw Cable under the bus, they are loyal like that. Until 2011 Cable was run out of town in 3 years or less at every coaching stop and every level since 1997.

The only time I could see where Cable was around any kind of legendary line coach was the one year he was with the Falcons in 2006. Good ol Alex Gibbs.

Click to expand...

Strangely enough Gibbs was the guy before Cable.

I'm constantly pulling my hair out and how we broadcast our plays to the defense. Bevell gives his guys no help whatsoever. He tips his hand, then asks his players to just make it work. The only reason he still has a job is because Russ can spin straw into gold.

Now imagine if he wasn't being handed straw.

The problem with the thinking of switching Cable for Bevell is that they work together on almost everything and Cable has a say in play calling, game planning etc. Maybe he would do it a little differently if fully in charge but It's hard for me to remove him from the equation.

I've killed Bevell at times but some of the success he's definitely played a part in. Is it because Wilson saves him at times? Probably. We won't fully know until we are in that situation. So again Bevell is probably better than his detractors give him credit for and falls a little short of the Bevell is great crowd as well. He's somewhere in between.

As for the running game I think Wilson adds .5-1 yard per carry because of his threat as a runner. It's not the only reason we run well obviously because Cable/Bevell scheme and the running backs themselves deserve credit but I think a healthy Wilson adds so much to the running game and its often overlooked by fans. It's no coincidence that the running game stumbles when he's not healthy outside of a handful of incredible cut backs by Michael.

Bottom line Wilson gets healthy and to a lesser extent the line improves a little and the offense takes off again.

TwistedHusky":uzuzy3y0 said:

So the question is this:

The Seahawks have a track record of having a very solid run game.

A lot of that success was attributed to Lynch but last year our run game seemed to continue with Rawls.

How much of the run game success should be attributed to Bevell?

It seems unfair to call him out for all the obvious mistakes he makes but give him none of the credit for what seemed (before this year) to be the consistent success at the side of the offense.

How much of the run game is a produce of Bevell's creation, how much Cable's and how much someone else?

Click to expand...

Russell Wilson. Adding 500-800 yards and 5.3 to 7.2 yards per carry per year will skew the numbers. Also, defenses obviously have to gameplan for RW and the RO, making the RBs job easier.

WindCityHawk":2cftueoh said:

I'm constantly pulling my hair out and how we broadcast our plays to the defense.

Click to expand...

And when he does try to deceive, it's clueless. Play-action on 3rd or 4th down and long???