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Free Agent O-Line Madness (and how it relates to Seattle)

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  • The Seahawks fans get their wish — some O-line help. The deal for Joeckel is reportedly worth $8m. It’s a substantial prove-it deal — but look at the going rate:

    — The Panthers gave Matt Kalil, a below-average starter who missed 14 games in 2016 through injury, a $55.5m contract with $25m guaranteed.

    — The Browns are set to pay Kevin Zeitler $60m over five years with $31.5m in guarantees. They’re also giving often-injured guard Joel Bitonio a $51.5m extension with $23m guaranteed.

    — The Broncos are paying Ronald Leary $36m over four years with $20m in guarantees. Leary only started in Dallas in 2016 because of an injury to La’el Collins and he was diagnosed with a degenerative knee issue.

    — The Rams are paying Anthony Whitworth $36m with $15m in guarantees, including $13m in 2017. Whitworth turns 36 in December.

    — Russell Okung has agreed a $53m, four-year contract with the Chargers including $25m in guarantees.

    — Riley Reiff intends to sign for the Vikings. Considering Minnesota’s desperate need on the O-line, they’re likely giving him a big contract.

    The Seahawks cannot compete in this market — and that’s a good thing.

    Before the Joeckel addition, Seattle only had five players set to earn more than $10m in 2017 — Russell Wilson, Richard Sherman, Michael Bennett, Earl Thomas and Jimmy Graham. All five justify their salaries. The next five highest earners are Doug Baldwin ($9.6m), Kam Chancellor ($8m), Bobby Wagner ($7.6m), K.J. Wright ($6.8m) and Cliff Avril ($5.5m).

    Consider the cap hits for those ten players and then consider what Matt Kalil and Ronald Leary are going to be earning in 2017. Then consider which of the ten above you’d rather lose and replace with Kalil, who would be the third highest paid player on the team.

    Like it or not, the Seahawks built their identity on defense and possess a rare, genuine franchise quarterback.

    http://seahawksdraftblog.com/report-sea ... ke-joeckel
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  • A bunch of people here wanted us to go out and get some of these guys.

    That money is straight up ridiculous. I have no idea how these teams are justifying these salaries with a cap in place. Especially for dump trucks like Kalil.

    I like our F.O. They are smart.
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  • Largent80 wrote:A bunch of people here wanted us to go out and get some of these guys.

    That money is straight up ridiculous. I have no idea how these teams are justifying these salaries with a cap in place. Especially for dump trucks like Kalil.

    I like our F.O. They are smart.


    I couldn't agree more.
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  • I wanted them to get one of those guys, but not for that much. Maybe 10 a season for whitworth, but 6 to 8 is better. They may be able to get lang for around 6 mil a year.
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  • We'd be more involved if the FO didn't have some belief in the guys we have. We're in a Superbowl window for the next 2 years, then things get interesting with our highly paid players on defense. Health, experience, and continuity are important on the O-Line. It's risky to rely on unproven players but it's also risky to pay aging, mediocre vets who may drop off quickly or not fit in with the scheme.
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  • A-Dog wrote:We'd be more involved if the FO didn't have some belief in the guys we have. We're in a Superbowl window for the next 2 years, then things get interesting with our highly paid players on defense. Health, experience, and continuity are important on the O-Line. It's risky to rely on unproven players but it's also risky to pay aging, mediocre vets who may drop off quickly or not fit in with the scheme.


    I think if they can land Lang they are totally set to draft defense. And this is a GREAT draft for defense.

    I'm hoping that somehow they can snag Lang, that frees them up to get young on D for the future, and could extend the window.
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  • Largent80 wrote:
    A-Dog wrote:We'd be more involved if the FO didn't have some belief in the guys we have. We're in a Superbowl window for the next 2 years, then things get interesting with our highly paid players on defense. Health, experience, and continuity are important on the O-Line. It's risky to rely on unproven players but it's also risky to pay aging, mediocre vets who may drop off quickly or not fit in with the scheme.


    I think if they can land Lang they are totally set to draft defense. And this is a GREAT draft for defense.

    I'm hoping that somehow they can snag Lang, that frees them up to get young on D for the future, and could extend the window.


    I would be thrilled with Lang, but don't see GB letting him walk. He already has stated they will get a chance to match.
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  • Largent80 wrote:The Seahawks fans get their wish — some O-line help. The deal for Joeckel is reportedly worth $8m. It’s a substantial prove-it deal — but look at the going rate:

    — The Panthers gave Matt Kalil, a below-average starter who missed 14 games in 2016 through injury, a $55.5m contract with $25m guaranteed.

    — The Browns are set to pay Kevin Zeitler $60m over five years with $31.5m in guarantees. They’re also giving often-injured guard Joel Bitonio a $51.5m extension with $23m guaranteed.

    — The Broncos are paying Ronald Leary $36m over four years with $20m in guarantees. Leary only started in Dallas in 2016 because of an injury to La’el Collins and he was diagnosed with a degenerative knee issue.

    — The Rams are paying Anthony Whitworth $36m with $15m in guarantees, including $13m in 2017. Whitworth turns 36 in December.

    — Russell Okung has agreed a $53m, four-year contract with the Chargers including $25m in guarantees.

    — Riley Reiff intends to sign for the Vikings. Considering Minnesota’s desperate need on the O-line, they’re likely giving him a big contract.

    The Seahawks cannot compete in this market — and that’s a good thing.

    Before the Joeckel addition, Seattle only had five players set to earn more than $10m in 2017 — Russell Wilson, Richard Sherman, Michael Bennett, Earl Thomas and Jimmy Graham. All five justify their salaries. The next five highest earners are Doug Baldwin ($9.6m), Kam Chancellor ($8m), Bobby Wagner ($7.6m), K.J. Wright ($6.8m) and Cliff Avril ($5.5m).

    Consider the cap hits for those ten players and then consider what Matt Kalil and Ronald Leary are going to be earning in 2017. Then consider which of the ten above you’d rather lose and replace with Kalil, who would be the third highest paid player on the team.

    Like it or not, the Seahawks built their identity on defense and possess a rare, genuine franchise quarterback.

    http://seahawksdraftblog.com/report-sea ... ke-joeckel


    The numbers went north fast this FA for O-Line. I don't think anyone felt we should give away the farm to get one, but just be willing to stick your neck in and see what the numbers looked like. In the past we haven't really seemed to be willing to do that much.
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  • This is interesting:

    Jordan Schultz of The Huffington Post reports the Seahawks are "working diligently" to sign free agent OG T.J. Lang.
    Lang is reportedly scheduled to visit Seattle on Friday, and Schultz says he is Seattle's "top priority." It makes sense considering how terrible their offensive line was last season and the rapidly diminishing talent remaining on the guard market. Lang is Rotoworld's top remaining interior lineman. Mar 9 - 7:48 PM

    http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5343/tj-lang
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  • Consider this, we are looking at two running back and going after a O linemen and signed another and may not be done, Pete is tired of not having the run working, this may be the notice year for Cable and Bevell if they cannot move the ball on the ground.
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  • Jimjones0384 wrote:I wanted them to get one of those guys, but not for that much. Maybe 10 a season for whitworth, but 6 to 8 is better. They may be able to get lang for around 6 mil a year.


    Lang is likely going to get around $10 apy ($9-11m range) on 4-5 yr deal with $25m guaranteed. He'll be 30 this season, which means he'll be in his prime for at least the next 2-3 seasons.

    That number while it seems big is okay, Lang has tons of experience, tons of experience with success in GB, post-season experience, etc.

    That experience will have huge value especially considering Lang is a top-notch guard and one of the leaders in GB not just on the O-Line but for the team. Langs impact would be huge as he would improve RT and allow Britt to cheat to the left, which in turn will allow the LG to help the LT.

    I just hope Cable goes away from the ZBS, it's a dying system that leads to more miscommunication, more missed blocks, and more injuries. If you got the right guys, it can be effective as all hell. Meaning you really need all 5 guys to be on the same page, at the same time. If one guy misses thier assignment it makes the whole O-Line look bad. And I can't count how many times I've seen an OL zone-blocking air while thier teammate is being man-handled.

    However, we've have a bunch of size and power that plays well into a more direct blocking scheme. Just put a man on a man. Seahawks will tell you otherwise but last season they toned the ZBS a little and the Oline was more successful.

    If we get Lang, and just change things up that is better suited to where this O-Line' s strengths are at, with the expectations that all the young Oline from last season will be more ready and more improved. This O-line will have the potential to be much better.

    You give Wilson an average O-Line or better, he could put in an MVP year. Consistent MVP year, start to finish.
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  • These numbers are crazy.
    Hopefully, Joeckel can get healthy and Cable can coach him up to become worthy of his draft pick status. Bring in a healthy Lang, and we are better.
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  • I just can't get over the message we have all heard since the end of the season about how they liked their OL. I expected the team to go after a tackle or two. But guards?

    Don't see Green Bay letting Lang go.

    Could it be a ruse?
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  • chris98251 wrote:Consider this, we are looking at two running back and going after a O linemen and signed another and may not be done, Pete is tired of not having the run working, this may be the notice year for Cable and Bevell if they cannot move the ball on the ground.

    The notice to the team that they deserve contract extensions. I'm on board.
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  • Siouxhawk wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Consider this, we are looking at two running back and going after a O linemen and signed another and may not be done, Pete is tired of not having the run working, this may be the notice year for Cable and Bevell if they cannot move the ball on the ground.

    The notice to the team that they deserve contract extensions. I'm on board.


    Keep talking Darrell, for a portion of the team that is suppose to be a strength we have fallen flat, they are bringing in players and experienced lineman to try to right the ship for depending on too much youth as they stated. That excuse will be null if they land two more vets and have Britt and a 3rd year in Glowkowski.

    When you have exhausted your options on players and thrown your RB coach out the door you have to turn to the next cause and effect. Cable and Bevell are all that's left.
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  • chris98251 wrote:
    Siouxhawk wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Consider this, we are looking at two running back and going after a O linemen and signed another and may not be done, Pete is tired of not having the run working, this may be the notice year for Cable and Bevell if they cannot move the ball on the ground.

    The notice to the team that they deserve contract extensions. I'm on board.


    Keep talking Darrell, for a portion of the team that is suppose to be a strength we have fallen flat, they are bringing in players and experienced lineman to try to right the ship for depending on too much youth as they stated. That excuse will be null if they land two more vets and have Britt and a 3rd year in Glowkowski.

    When you have exhausted your options on players and thrown your RB coach out the door you have to turn to the next cause and effect. Cable and Bevell are all that's left.

    I'm not looking at doom and gloom. I'm seeing a prosperous season ahead, hence the contract extension proclamation.

    You see us getting TWO more veteran linemen?
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  • Seafan wrote:I just can't get over the message we have all heard since the end of the season about how they liked their OL. I expected the team to go after a tackle or two. But guards?

    Don't see Green Bay letting Lang go.

    Could it be a ruse?


    We'll see... Packers already have about $21m tied into thier Oline without Lang.

    They return 4 of 5 starters on thier line.

    There LTs salary jumps from 6m to 11m in 2018.

    Their starting LG and OC are UFAs in 2018.

    There is chatter that Aaron Rodgers deserves to be paid more.

    Getting Lacy and Cook back are likely priorities on thier list.

    They just gave Nick Perry a 5 yr, 60m deal

    The draft is stronger in terms of more quality OG prospects as many of the top OT project better at OG. Lang himself was an OT converted to OG.

    I expect the Seahawks to go for a full court press for Lang, even possibly going as high as 12m apy to match Reiff's contract.

    Lang is the top OL left, it's a move that weakens GB, and strengthens us twice fold considering his experience, leadership, impact/domino effect he has plus improvements by all the young players.

    And what for?

    The health of our backs. You keep Wilson, Rawls, and Prosise healthy and this offense has the potential to be unstoppable.

    Sure 1 player isnt going to turn a unit from worst to first. But a league average O-Line that can dominant the run game.... There's easily the potential for that. Lang is good enough to get us there on paper.

    It's up to Fant, Glowinski, Britt, Ifedi and others to take the next step and put in the work to come in better with more experience, with more chemistry, and more polish. And hopefully bigger, stronger, faster, smarter and angrier with a giant chip on their shoulders after being the consensus worst O-Line in the NFL.
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  • Awesome post Largent, it couldn't be clearer.

    They're not going to overspend for these guys and I'm glad the FO is what it is.

    btw....The Bobby Wagner and Avril contracts compared to these linemen is hysterical!
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  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
    Seafan wrote:I just can't get over the message we have all heard since the end of the season about how they liked their OL. I expected the team to go after a tackle or two. But guards?

    Don't see Green Bay letting Lang go.

    Could it be a ruse?


    We'll see... Packers already have about $21m tied into thier Oline without Lang.

    They return 4 of 5 starters on thier line.

    There LTs salary jumps from 6m to 11m in 2018.

    Their starting LG and OC are UFAs in 2018.

    There is chatter that Aaron Rodgers deserves to be paid more.

    Getting Lacy and Cook back are likely priorities on thier list.

    They just gave Nick Perry a 5 yr, 60m deal

    The draft is stronger in terms of more quality OG prospects as many of the top OT project better at OG. Lang himself was an OT converted to OG.

    I expect the Seahawks to go for a full court press for Lang, even possibly going as high as 12m apy to match Reiff's contract.

    Lang is the top OL left, it's a move that weakens GB, and strengthens us twice fold considering his experience, leadership, impact/domino effect he has plus improvements by all the young players.

    And what for?

    The health of our backs. You keep Wilson, Rawls, and Prosise healthy and this offense has the potential to be unstoppable.

    Sure 1 player isnt going to turn a unit from worst to first. But a league average O-Line that can dominant the run game.... There's easily the potential for that. Lang is good enough to get us there on paper.

    It's up to Fant, Glowinski, Britt, Ifedi and others to take the next step and put in the work to come in better with more experience, with more chemistry, and more polish. And hopefully bigger, stronger, faster, smarter and angrier with a giant chip on their shoulders after being the consensus worst O-Line in the NFL.


    If they throw 12 at him, I think they will land him.
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  • Great post OP - very nicely laid out

    I think we have faith in the O-line but understand two issues

    1) We have zero backups

    2) They are still young

    Plugging in a few semi-expensive pieces for a year and drafting for the O-line will help fix both these issues. Once we have an experienced o-line (1-2 years) and keep drafting for it then we can keep churning it with rookies going in as backups and gaining experience that way.
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  • Pandion Haliaetus wrote:
    Jimjones0384 wrote:I wanted them to get one of those guys, but not for that much. Maybe 10 a season for whitworth, but 6 to 8 is better. They may be able to get lang for around 6 mil a year.


    Lang is likely going to get around $10 apy ($9-11m range) on 4-5 yr deal with $25m guaranteed. He'll be 30 this season, which means he'll be in his prime for at least the next 2-3 seasons.

    That number while it seems big is okay, Lang has tons of experience, tons of experience with success in GB, post-season experience, etc.

    That experience will have huge value especially considering Lang is a top-notch guard and one of the leaders in GB not just on the O-Line but for the team. Langs impact would be huge as he would improve RT and allow Britt to cheat to the left, which in turn will allow the LG to help the LT.

    I just hope Cable goes away from the ZBS, it's a dying system that leads to more miscommunication, more missed blocks, and more injuries. If you got the right guys, it can be effective as all hell. Meaning you really need all 5 guys to be on the same page, at the same time. If one guy misses thier assignment it makes the whole O-Line look bad. And I can't count how many times I've seen an OL zone-blocking air while thier teammate is being man-handled.

    However, we've have a bunch of size and power that plays well into a more direct blocking scheme. Just put a man on a man. Seahawks will tell you otherwise but last season they toned the ZBS a little and the Oline was more successful.

    If we get Lang, and just change things up that is better suited to where this O-Line' s strengths are at, with the expectations that all the young Oline from last season will be more ready and more improved. This O-line will have the potential to be much better.

    You give Wilson an average O-Line or better, he could put in an MVP year. Consistent MVP year, start to finish.


    Great Post ^
    The ZBS can go haywire pretty quick when you have a group of fairly young and or inexperienced players.
    Several Defensive Coaches have schemed a way to disrupt, and neutralize it, these Coaches are not going to give the inexperienced O-Linemen time to learn how to implement the ZBS, let alone perfect it.
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  • It's madness, but what else should be done? For multiple years Cam was beaten to a pulp both inside and outside the framework of the rules. In a prime time game in 2014 a French Canadian named David Foucault started at LT in his first organized football game in the United States. In 2015 OT play cost the Super Bowl after a 17 win season. No one thought the Panthers would be picking at 8 but now that they are there's no value or sure thing there either. The Panthers have been the biggest tightwad team in the league with money under Gettleman after getting out of cap hell. They made the best of some maddening choices that has high risk/reward, but it had to be done.
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  • mikeak wrote:Great post OP - very nicely laid out

    I think we have faith in the O-line but understand two issues

    1) We have zero backups

    2) They are still young

    Plugging in a few semi-expensive pieces for a year and drafting for the O-line will help fix both these issues. Once we have an experienced o-line (1-2 years) and keep drafting for it then we can keep churning it with rookies going in as backups and gaining experience that way.



    I don't know of anyone who has ever said this...
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  • Sooner or later you might have to pay someone, because each offseason contracts for olinemen like other positions are going to get higher and higher.

    I did stumble upon an interesting article regarding the Kalil contract from profootballtalk.com. Essentially it's laid out as a year to year/ pay as you play deal for the first two season. So they can cut bait if he doesn't improve playing alongside his brother.


    Touted as a five-year, $55.5 million contract, the deal signed last week by tackle Matt Kalil in Carolina is actually a one-year contract with a chance for Kalil to unlock the balance in 2018.

    Per a source with knowledge of the deal, the Panthers have to decide between the first and fifth day of the 2018 league year whether to exercise a $10 million option bonus for 2021, with a $10 million non-exercise fee for 2018. The only way to avoid the option bonus or the fee is to cut him or trade him before the deadline for exercising the option.

    For now, the deal pays out $13 million for one year, with a $1 million guarantee in 2018 that surely is subject to offset.

    While that’s a lot to pay Kalil for one season, it gives the Panthers a clear out in the event that, after paying $13 million in 2017, they decide not to give him another $11 million in 2018. The incentive to do so comes from a more affordable $7 million salary in 2019. Also, salaries of $10 million in 2020 and $10.5 million in 2021 may seem to be a lot less daunting if the salary cap keeps going up $10 million or more per year.


    At first blush, the contract signed by tackle Matt Kalil in Carolina doesn’t look as good as advertised, thanks to an error in the summary prepared by the NFLPA. With the accurate information, it’s a far better deal.

    The mistake appears in the fully-guaranteed 2018 base salary, which per NFLPA records is $1 million. Per a source with knowledge of the deal, it’s actually $11 million.

    The face of the contract shows that the $11 million salary drops to $1 million once a $10 million option bonus is exercised in 2018.

    So Kalil will get $24 million fully guaranteed at signing. And as a practical matter the Panthers can move on after giving him $24 million over two years, because after that it essentially becomes a year-to-year contract.
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  • Cyrus12 wrote:
    mikeak wrote:Great post OP - very nicely laid out

    I think we have faith in the O-line but understand two issues

    1) We have zero backups

    2) They are still young

    Plugging in a few semi-expensive pieces for a year and drafting for the O-line will help fix both these issues. Once we have an experienced o-line (1-2 years) and keep drafting for it then we can keep churning it with rookies going in as backups and gaining experience that way.



    I don't know of anyone who has ever said this...


    Sorry I was unclear in my post

    What I meant is that the FO has faith in the O-line for the future but not right now without help and not as soon as someone is injured.

    So to correct that you add 1-2 pieces to start. Moving guys that played last year to backup and then draft 1-2 guys every year going forward. That will create a decent rotation with experience and young incoming guys and keep the dollars spent low

    If they didn't have faith they would have offered more for Fant to match Detroit and signed Joeckel to at least a 1+1 deal
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