Data Diving into the Defense Carrying the Offense debate

Hyak

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The whole debate about the defense carrying the offense over the years and subsequent friction big or small got me curious as to how the data shook up in whether the units did their parts in a game.

The NFL average for points scored/allowed over the past 6 seasons is 22.75. I did a simple scoring system for this - the offense got a point for games with points > 22.75 (23 +) and the defense got a point for games with points allowed < 22.75 (22 and below) and accounted for scores from Special Teams or Defensive scores. I know there are some flaws (starting field position for one).

Example - In 2012, the Seahawks beat the Cowboys 27-7. One score, however, was on a blocked punt so the offense only put up 20 points hence they did not get a "1" for above the NFL average. The 2014 NFCC is another case as 7 points came on the Ryan fake FG pass.

HAWKS STATS

In the graph, Green is good and Red is bad. The first set looks at how the units did and the corresponding W/L results. The second set is the combination. Green for both offense and defense represents a clean game (offense 23+, defense 22 or less).

Trend wise, you can see the regular dominance of the defense in terms of Green games start to decline some from almost always in 2012 (78%) / 2013 (90%) to 55.6% in 2016. Offensively, 2013 was the high mark (63%) followed by 2016 ironically (61%).

In looking at the combos, it gets interesting.

For years, the defense could carry the team to victory even if the offense put up less that 23 points. From 2012-2015, they were 20-5 when this scenario happened. Not in 2016, when they went 1-2-1. Likewise, the offense rarely bailed out a below average defensive performance going 4-8 from 2012-2015. In 2016, however, the Hawks were 4-1 when this happened. The irony is that frustrations have boiled over when one can argue that the 2016 team was significantly better at carrying the team when needed than prior recent teams, even the SB ones.

It also interesting to see the games where both units are above average and when they are not. The 2013 SB season had 10 green games and 0 red ones. Double green games in other years ranged from 7 in 2012/2014, 6 in 2016, and 5 in 2015. In the double red games, they had only 1 in 2012/2013 and have had 10 in the last 3 years (3 in 2014, 4 in 2015, and 3 in 2016).
 

nwHawk

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Excellent work JTB. I curious about 2016, pre-Earl broken leg and after. No doubt that 2016 would have been different if Earl was on patrol.

This also illustrates why the draft was used to restock the defense. The numbers reflect the slight decline we see on the field.

One thing that is obvious, we need to control the clock, and we must improve the run game. Need to make the tough yard(s)!!!
 
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Hyak

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nwHawk":83xqdbzv said:
Excellent work JTB. I curious about 2016, pre-Earl broken leg and after. No doubt that 2016 would have been different if Earl was on patrol.

Ironically, they had 8 games in total that were "Red", 4 out of 12 with ET playing and 4 out of 6 without ET. Definitely an impact for sure.

That said, if 2013 is the benchmark (only 2 Red defensive games) we have seen it go to 6 in 2014 and 8 each in 2015 and 2016.
 
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Hyak

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I think the data here gives a glimpse into some of the frustration that Sherman and perhaps others on the defense are expressing as they see their window closing. 2012-2014 was their peak and we've seen a slow but steady regression. I suspect that's why Sherman is so unable to get over the SB XLIX ending whereas I do believe most others have moved on.

Now in fairness, the 2012 team was capable of winning it all and didn't as the defense failed to protect a 2 point lead with a minute to go and the SB XLIX games was actually one where the offense graded as green and the defense was red albeit I understand how beat up the D was in that game and how the last play was crushing.
 

vin.couve12

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This is actually pretty easy for me and last year really put the emphasis on it. The defense spent a lot more time on the field due to us not controlling/running the football and churning out first downs with any regularity. I don't know that stats will reflect that because we did get first downs on some drives and racked them up, but not with any consistency. We'd go 3nout 3 times and then get 12 first downs. Our pass first offense was extremely erratic. We also turned the ball over more than in previous years, which also created bad field position.

We need to get back to running the football and controlling the football. RW is a good quarterback, but like 99% of all quarterbacks, you can't just lean on him and expect a superbowl. The Seahawks need to Seahawk.
 

vin.couve12

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We went prevent on that last drive in 2012. Quinn would not have and we would have won.

Prevent just doesn't work. It's so conservative that it's almost like bending over.
 
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Hyak

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vin.couve12":1945wxnv said:
This is actually pretty easy for me and last year really put the emphasis on it. The defense spent a lot more time on the field due to us not controlling/running the football and churning out first downs with any regularity. I don't know that stats will reflect that because we did get first downs on some drives and racked them up, but not with any consistency. We'd go 3nout 3 times and then get 12 first downs. Our pass first offense was extremely erratic. We also turned the ball over more than in previous years, which also created bad field position.

We need to get back to running the football and controlling the football. RW is a good quarterback, but like 99% of all quarterbacks, you can't just lean on him and expect a superbowl. The Seahawks need to Seahawk.

Actually they were pretty good in avoiding 3 and outs on offense (7th overall) but I don't disagree with the impact that the running game had on TOP.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stat ... tage/2016/
 

mrt144

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Hey, this is my rough system for assigning blame! Nice! Thank you for doing the legwork in fleshing out what I was too lazy to do.
 
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Hyak

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vin.couve12":1hy9ya8v said:
We went prevent on that last drive in 2012. Quinn would not have and we would have won.

Prevent just doesn't work. It's so conservative that it's almost like bending over.

ATL got the ball at their 28 with 25 seconds left down 1 and having 2 timeouts. I don't know if prevent was the problem so much as they gave up 2 chunk plays playing it (22 and 19) with each one only taking 6 seconds per play.

Regardless of how/why, the fact is that the defense didn't close the game just like the offense didn't in SB XLIX.
 

razor150

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JTB":2gyx80oq said:
vin.couve12":2gyx80oq said:
This is actually pretty easy for me and last year really put the emphasis on it. The defense spent a lot more time on the field due to us not controlling/running the football and churning out first downs with any regularity. I don't know that stats will reflect that because we did get first downs on some drives and racked them up, but not with any consistency. We'd go 3nout 3 times and then get 12 first downs. Our pass first offense was extremely erratic. We also turned the ball over more than in previous years, which also created bad field position.

We need to get back to running the football and controlling the football. RW is a good quarterback, but like 99% of all quarterbacks, you can't just lean on him and expect a superbowl. The Seahawks need to Seahawk.

Actually they were pretty good in avoiding 3 and outs on offense (7th overall) but I don't disagree with the impact that the running game had on TOP.

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stat ... tage/2016/

Can you get the time of possession stat from that? While we may not have been so bad at going 3 and out,I think that stat would be far more telling. I know last year we had a long stretch where the defense on the field the vast majority of the game.
 
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Hyak

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mrt144":39qwttua said:
Hey, this is my rough system for assigning blame! Nice! Thank you for doing the legwork in fleshing out what I was too lazy to do.

That all said, game flow is another flaw in this that probably penalizes the offense in this rudimentary scoring system. I think of a number of the NFC West matchups with the Rams, 49ers, and Cardinals sans Palmer where it was clear that the offense's big priority was to avoid turnovers because our defense had such an advantage over their offense and the only way for them to lose was if the offense gave up easy scores. A 19-3 win has the same grade as a 9-3 loss in this scenario when we all know that's not the case in real terms.
 
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Hyak

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razor150":25v0udav said:
Can you get the time of possession stat from that? While we may not have been so bad at going 3 and out,I think that stat would be far more telling. I know last year we had a long stretch where the defense on the field the vast majority of the game.

23rd overall but roughly 50% of the time. A drop from prior years although the closest comparison was 2013!

https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stat ... tics/2016/

That said, they ranked 26th in 5 minute drives and 27th in 10-play drives, which does correlate to not giving the defense as much rest as they could of.
 

Jville

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Nice contribution JTB :2thumbs: Sporting Charts is an interesting site.

As I recall, taking the football away was a decisive trait of the 2013 team. The frequency of the take away has fallen off considerably in more recent years. As a result, the addition of play making DBs was a theme this off season. And, the addition of longer defensive linemen may help deflect a few more passes and contribute to more take away opportunities.

Also, the running game is more than just a statement of style. The leagues running games turn the ball over with less frequency than the leagues passing game. Statistically, the running game takes better care of the football.

All of that is important to the head man because ....... "it's all about the football" - Pete Carroll.

Eye popping take away chart >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/teams/361/seattle-seahawks/#takeaways$SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990[/urltargetblank]

Interception chart >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/teams/361/seattle-seahawks/#defense-interceptions$SeasonMax=9999&SeasonMin=1990[/urltargetblank]

Toxic differential chart >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/teams/361/seattle-seahawks/#Toxic%20Differential$SeasonMax=5000&SeasonMin=1990[/urltargetblank]

EDIT: Did anyone take a close look at that take away chart? The 2016 team recorded the fewest take aways in over a quarter of a century. :shock:
 

seahawkfreak

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vin.couve12":1bklp0u0 said:
This is actually pretty easy for me and last year really put the emphasis on it.The defense spent a lot more time on the field due to us not controlling/running the football and churning out first downs with any regularity. I don't know that stats will reflect that because we did get first downs on some drives and racked them up, but not with any consistency. We'd go 3nout 3 times and then get 12 first downs. Our pass first offense was extremely erratic. We also turned the ball over more than in previous years, which also created bad field position.

We need to get back to running the football and controlling the football. RW is a good quarterback, but like 99% of all quarterbacks, you can't just lean on him and expect a superbowl. The Seahawks need to Seahawk.

Common misconception but not true. TOP had a nominal change from 2012 to 2016.

Average Time of Possession (excluding OT)

2012: 31:24
2013: 29:57
2014: 31:26
2015: 31:03
2016: 29:16

[urltargetblank]https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/average-time-of-possession-net-of-ot?date=2016-12-17[/urltargetblank]
Scoring touchdowns in the redzone was our issue last year.
 

vin.couve12

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I guess 3 and outs might be a little too specific of a criteria (so we got A first down and couldn't make it 20 yards or whichever), but we had problems sustaining drives. We were 22nd in first downs last year.
 
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Hyak

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Good discussion and additional stats. I really like the toxic differential one.

To that point, both sides of the ball have significant areas for improvement. The offense's red zone problems and inconsistency in sustaining drives (negative plays/3rd down conversions) come to mind. On defense, the lack of takeaways has been a concerning trend since 2013 and they also took a step back in 3rd down efficiency and red zone efficiency.
 

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Jville":11k6smyf said:
EDIT: Did anyone take a close look at that take away chart? The 2016 team recorded the fewest take aways in over a quarter of a century. :shock:


The team was almost allergic to interceptions last season. They would just flat out drop them. It was so bad it will have to turn around next season.
 
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Hyak

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Toxic Differential is a statistic in football used to measure a team on their ability in creating and preventing both turnovers and explosive plays. It's a cornerstone of Seahawk football under Pete.

They were only +1 in TO ratio in 2016 - the offense was 11th overall in giveaways but 22nd in takeaways. They also had a big drop in the big play differential based on more big pass plays allowed and a huge drop off in big runs from the offense.

If you then look at the moves they have made this offseason, it's clear that they are addressing these areas.


Definition of this Metric.
Toxic Differential is calculated by adding together a teams turnover differential (takeaways - giveaways) and its big play differential (big plays for - big plays against).

Toxic differential is a combination of three different differential statistics:

1) Turnover differential, which is the difference between the total number of takeaways (opponent turnovers) less the total number of giveaways (team turnovers.

2) Passing Big Play differential, which is the difference between the total number of passing plays of 25+ yards by the team less the total number of passing plays of 25+ yards the team gave up.

3) Rushing Big Play differential, which is the difference between the total number of rushing plays of 10+ yards by the team less the total number of rushing plays of 10+ yards the team gave up.
 

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Does your NFL Average statistic also deduct defensive and special teams scores?

Is the offense given credit for putting the team into field goal range?

Given that we recently released our kicker, presumably for missing makeable kicks, have you allowed for makeable field goals vs NFL average?

Are you applying different weight to protecting a lead versus chasing one?

We know for a fact we suffered crucial injuries at QB, RB, and WR last season, right when those things appeared to be clicking. How have you factored for that?

It's a complicated thing to analyse, with a lot of very fluid factors.
 
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Hyak

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KiwiHawk":vd4ycart said:
Does your NFL Average statistic also deduct defensive and special teams scores?

Is the offense given credit for putting the team into field goal range?

Given that we recently released our kicker, presumably for missing makeable kicks, have you allowed for makeable field goals vs NFL average?

Are you applying different weight to protecting a lead versus chasing one?

We know for a fact we suffered crucial injuries at QB, RB, and WR last season, right when those things appeared to be clicking. How have you factored for that?

It's a complicated thing to analyse, with a lot of very fluid factors.

More out of laziness than anything else, I kept it really simple with offensive points scored and defensive points allowed. I did account for ST/defensive TD's in this. I did not factor in for missing makeable FG's (such as in the Arizona tie game) nor did I factor in protecting leads or injuries. I did allude to some of this in an earlier post in this thread as I absolutely recognize where the offense may throttle it down to play safe when playing a team with a bad offense.

It's basic although it was able to show some interesting data trends that match with what we've seen on the field.
 
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