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I think they should trade graham

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Re: I think they should trade graham
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:06 pm
  • I bet the Browns could be enticed to part with Joe Thomas in exchange for Graham. Jimmy Graham might put some butts in the seats for them. Gives them the big receiving target that they need.

    Jimmy Graham & Jeremy Lane for Joe Thomas & Randall Telfer (blocking TE with decent hands). The cap hits should be about even. Graham excites the few Browns fans who are left. Plus, they get a starting nickel corner from the L.O.B. And the Seahawks get significantly better blocking.

    Why would they give up Thomas and Telfer? Thomas is 32 years old and has played nearly 10k-consecutive snaps of service for the miserable Browns. They might as well cash in now, while Thomas is still considered good, to get a flashy playmaking receiver like Graham. Also, give the guy a chance to win something before he retires. Meanwhile, trading Telfer opens up more playing time for their first round pick, David Njoku. Graham/Njoku could be a formidable 2TE receiving threat, sort of like the Patriots had last season with Gronk/Bennett. Maybe Graham can mentor Njoku. It makes sense for both teams.

    Might as well throw in 3rd rounder Odhiambo, too.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:05 am
  • Browns are trying to get younger, so it's unlikely they'd do this. They had a sure-handed mentor in Barnidge and let him walk.

    I'm of the opinion that Jimmy still will be a big part of our offense going forward. It's completely useless to gauge his abilities on one game in 2017. We obviously targeted him more -- twice in the red zone -- and the other routes he was the hot read when Russ was under duress. Even on that photo being circulated where Russ is being chased by 3 Packers, he completed that pass to Jimmy for no gain.

    But he can't just be a safety valve ... and that is where our line needs to do it's job. He has to find the seams of the defense and sit down in space, thus utilizing his size and jumping ability. Russ just needs about 2.5 seconds to make that work. But he ain't getting that and that's where the offense became unraveled Sunday.

    But we will iron out those deficiencies and regain that Seahawk magic. It's what we do. And Jimmy will be part of that.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:54 am
  • Welcome to 2015. They should have traded him two years ago when it became apparent the offensive staff had no idea how to utilize him.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:25 am

Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:48 am
  • WilsonMVP wrote:
    Hawk_Nation wrote:I still think they need to move him to the WR role and get a TE that actually blocks.


    This..I wish they would use him more as a WR and use him seldomly at TE


    Receivers, TE's & RB's that can BLOCK are coveted by Pete.
    Jimmy Graham is just ONE facet of the They figured that they could just Coach JG up a little, and make him the perfect fit, he's just never going to get to Zach Miller level of blocking, and just to add...we no longer have Marshawn Lynch to help alleviate the constant pressure on RW & the 'Behind The Learning Curve' O-Line....Lot's of missing pieces to this Offense, and REMOVING one of Wilsons targets would just exacerbate the problem.
    The game against the Packers Defense showed just how easy it is for a Defense Coordinator to just send in the dogs to disrupt the timing & confidence of a newbie, unskilled, & GREEN O-Line.
    Proof is in what McCarthy said about how the Seahawks Defense had messed up the timing for their Offense in the first half, and remember, the Packers Offense only had ONE Rookie in there...The rest were vet O-Linemen.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:55 am

Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:13 am
  • The reality of the situation is trading Graham won't help this year unless it is straight up for a Zach Miller type. The o-line is what it is until they gel and we just have to hope they adapt the offense quickly.

    Btw, watching the Chiefs game, and I know their o-line is better, but part of it has to be their scheme helping out, keeping the defense guessing. Just the way they use Kelce looks like they have a clue.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:20 am
  • I honestly like luke willson more in this offense thats just me. Him and russ have better chemistry, problem is willson has had some injury issues.

    Trading graham for a solid lineman is the best bet here, i just wonder if they are even considering it. Its not that graham is bad or anything, its just that the team needs help elsewhere and graham being a star is good trade value to get what you want and he seems like the most expendable option to me.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:47 am
  • scutterhawk wrote:
    Seymour wrote:An article came out in The Times yesterday suggesting the same thing. Trade for an offensive lineman.

    http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/is-it-now-time-to-stop-thinking-jimmy-graham-is-going-to-be-a-great-savior-for-seahawks/

    LOL, If you want to dance, you should have a partner, and besides, just because someone writes an article, doesn't mean that they are right, and it's absolutely the right thing to do.


    Dude....I posted a link to an article that some may be interested in into the correct thread. Where did I say or suggest they were right?

    If fact earlier I already stated I thought it was too late for a trade. :roll:
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:38 am
  • RussB wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:If you trade Graham away, all you do is increase the likelihood of coverage sacks. Wilson's receiving corps is small and injury-prone as it is. He won't improve with fewer targets to throw to.

    This was a rare down game for Graham (he was robbed of a TD by the refs) and there are no elite tackles out there just sitting around in some insurance office waiting to be remembered. This is the hand we've been dealt.

    They got to 2 superbowls without a star tight end. Difference then was that the o line was actually somewhat decent and could help the offense keep the defense off the feild.

    Trading graham for a lineman helps the team, keeping him with zero protection hinders the team.


    Zach Miller was a star tight end. He was a great fit for our scheme and made an enormous difference.

    A big target who can get open IS protection for a QB. It gives him somewhere to go with the ball. Complaining that Graham isn't being used as a big red-zone target? You won't have anyone who even COULD be used that way if you trade Graham.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:41 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    RussB wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:If you trade Graham away, all you do is increase the likelihood of coverage sacks. Wilson's receiving corps is small and injury-prone as it is. He won't improve with fewer targets to throw to.

    This was a rare down game for Graham (he was robbed of a TD by the refs) and there are no elite tackles out there just sitting around in some insurance office waiting to be remembered. This is the hand we've been dealt.

    They got to 2 superbowls without a star tight end. Difference then was that the o line was actually somewhat decent and could help the offense keep the defense off the feild.

    Trading graham for a lineman helps the team, keeping him with zero protection hinders the team.


    Zach Miller was a star tight end. He was a great fit for our scheme and made an enormous difference.

    A big target who can get open IS protection for a QB. It gives him somewhere to go with the ball. Complaining that Graham isn't being used as a big red-zone target? You won't have anyone who even COULD be used that way if you trade Graham.



    It doesn't matter that we have a receiving TE, we don't use them.. just use a lineman.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:44 am
  • Bobblehead wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    RussB wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:If you trade Graham away, all you do is increase the likelihood of coverage sacks. Wilson's receiving corps is small and injury-prone as it is. He won't improve with fewer targets to throw to.

    This was a rare down game for Graham (he was robbed of a TD by the refs) and there are no elite tackles out there just sitting around in some insurance office waiting to be remembered. This is the hand we've been dealt.

    They got to 2 superbowls without a star tight end. Difference then was that the o line was actually somewhat decent and could help the offense keep the defense off the feild.

    Trading graham for a lineman helps the team, keeping him with zero protection hinders the team.


    Zach Miller was a star tight end. He was a great fit for our scheme and made an enormous difference.

    A big target who can get open IS protection for a QB. It gives him somewhere to go with the ball. Complaining that Graham isn't being used as a big red-zone target? You won't have anyone who even COULD be used that way if you trade Graham.



    It doesn't matter that we have a receiving TE, we don't use them.. just use a lineman.


    So you're seriously good with having no red-zone targets? Seems like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    The Seahawks have ways to mask bad offensive line play. They just spent 1.5 seasons proving it. They do not have ways to mask a lack of a big receiver.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:03 pm
  • It's hard to miss having a redzone target when you refuse to use the one you have.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:30 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Bobblehead wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    RussB wrote:They got to 2 superbowls without a star tight end. Difference then was that the o line was actually somewhat decent and could help the offense keep the defense off the feild.

    Trading graham for a lineman helps the team, keeping him with zero protection hinders the team.


    Zach Miller was a star tight end. He was a great fit for our scheme and made an enormous difference.

    A big target who can get open IS protection for a QB. It gives him somewhere to go with the ball. Complaining that Graham isn't being used as a big red-zone target? You won't have anyone who even COULD be used that way if you trade Graham.



    It doesn't matter that we have a receiving TE, we don't use them.. just use a lineman.


    So you're seriously good with having no red-zone targets? Seems like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    The Seahawks have ways to mask bad offensive line play. They just spent 1.5 seasons proving it. They do not have ways to mask a lack of a big receiver.

    So how has masking it worked the past 2 years?
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:13 pm
  • I think so too. Trade value is his best value for us.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:03 pm
  • Trade Graham+Lane and sign one of the best pass blocking TE's in the league Gary Barnidge. The offence went on a historic run after Graham got injured in 2015. Love Graham but not being utilized enough to warrant $10M against the cap.

    Seahawks would likely get a 2nd round pick for him while clearing $8M at this point.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:43 pm
  • Honestly I get excited watching Graham but he really doesn't fit our offense well. Similar but not as bad as Harvin.
    Now that being said, could we get something like a good or elite o lineman for him? Possibly but only from the right team. That team I think would be Dallas. They have good/elite lineman in droves still and if you hang something as juicy as Graham in front of Jerry he's more likely than any other to bite.
    With him having a young mobile QB now he may be a bit more willing to relinquish one of those lineman for Graham.

    However this is probably a pipe dream anyway you look at it.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:50 pm
  • Just trade him already he is useless in this offense.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:47 pm
  • The problem isn't Graham, it's the combination of Bevell and Cable. Before Graham, Zach Miller was not exactly hauling in a good number of catches. The tight end is used seldomly in Bevell's offense. And it doesn't help that Cable is a bad coach that he pretty much needs an extra blocker to somewhat make his schemes "work."

    If anybody should leave it's definitely Bevell and Cable.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:22 pm
  • I came across an older quote that depicts much of what others here are saying about Graham and some of why he is a poor fit. I cannot stand Ray Lewis the person, but do respect his game and some of his football opinions....

    Lewis then followed by saying: "This is what happens when you are a defensive team and you are playing against a tight end" that blocks the way Graham does. "When you talk about what he can't do, he's a queen tight end. He's the opposite of what I used to be playing against. ... When you have this type of deficiency in your offense, this can take away your identity without you even knowing it takes away your identity."


    https://www.outsports.com/2015/10/7/9469237/ray-lewis-should-apologize-for-his-queen-tight-end-comment-about-Jimmy-Graham
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:00 pm
  • Seymour wrote:I came across an older quote that depicts much of what others here are saying about Graham and some of why he is a poor fit. I cannot stand Ray Lewis the person, but do respect his game and some of his football opinions....

    Lewis then followed by saying: "This is what happens when you are a defensive team and you are playing against a tight end" that blocks the way Graham does. "When you talk about what he can't do, he's a queen tight end. He's the opposite of what I used to be playing against. ... When you have this type of deficiency in your offense, this can take away your identity without you even knowing it takes away your identity."


    https://www.outsports.com/2015/10/7/9469237/ray-lewis-should-apologize-for-his-queen-tight-end-comment-about-Jimmy-Graham


    Regarding the quote above, it goes to something I heard a couple years ago. It doesn't mean one damn thing to be whether he is or not but apparently in the alpha male dominated NFL it could cause some serious animosity with teammates.

    Is Jimmy G gay? And if so is that where some of the dislike of him among some Seahawks originates?

    Being serious here. I heard it before. Dismissed it. Now with a few other whispers going around has me wondering.

    And that's coming from someone who is a huge Jimmy Graham fan. Love the guy's talent/athleticism, etc, who thinks he's been terribly misused in the idiot Bevell scheme.

    Hope that's not actually part of the problem but, well, hmmmm...
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:19 pm
  • He's been used just fine in our offensive schemes.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:22 pm
  • Graham and Sherm as a package deal for Trent Williams and a late round draft pick from the Skins.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:25 pm
  • Really, I bet NO and Bree's would love to have him back. Maybe for Andrus Peat.. maybe dreaming... hell send em another 1st rounder as well, we don't use them very well either.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:47 pm
  • Bobblehead wrote:Really, I bet NO and Bree's would love to have him back. Maybe for Andrus Peat.. maybe dreaming... hell send em another 1st rounder as well, we don't use them very well either.


    Can we trade Cable with him?
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:06 pm
  • We never should have traded for Jimmy, and it's not his fault. We lack the ability to use him effectively, and that will NEVER change until our OC does.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:08 pm
  • semiahmoo wrote:
    Seymour wrote:I came across an older quote that depicts much of what others here are saying about Graham and some of why he is a poor fit. I cannot stand Ray Lewis the person, but do respect his game and some of his football opinions....

    Lewis then followed by saying: "This is what happens when you are a defensive team and you are playing against a tight end" that blocks the way Graham does. "When you talk about what he can't do, he's a queen tight end. He's the opposite of what I used to be playing against. ... When you have this type of deficiency in your offense, this can take away your identity without you even knowing it takes away your identity."


    https://www.outsports.com/2015/10/7/9469237/ray-lewis-should-apologize-for-his-queen-tight-end-comment-about-Jimmy-Graham


    Regarding the quote above, it goes to something I heard a couple years ago. It doesn't mean one damn thing to be whether he is or not but apparently in the alpha male dominated NFL it could cause some serious animosity with teammates.

    Is Jimmy G gay? And if so is that where some of the dislike of him among some Seahawks originates?

    Being serious here. I heard it before. Dismissed it. Now with a few other whispers going around has me wondering.

    ....

    I really doubt that would ruffle any Seahawk feathers; this team embraces the unconventional.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:59 pm
  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:Graham and Sherm as a package deal for Trent Williams and a late round draft pick from the Skins.


    This is absurd. I seriously hope this is a joke...
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:00 pm
  • Maybe they should trade him b/c I doubt Bevell will ever maximize his talent or use him like he should/could be used.

    In NO he was an annual Pro Bowl attendee as a receiving TE. He was an offensive force of nature with Brees and an OC who was willing to use him in all sorts of different ways. Here he is under-utilized afterthought, used only with an occasional mid-range hook route where his length is used, or a short pass where there is little RAC chance or an occasional seam route that is more than often wide open but there is zero chance the OLine can protect RW long enough to allow it to happen. When it does it succeeds. Period. He needs to be used better, with short fades using his height, slants using his length, short hooks where the chains are moved. It is a criminal waste of talent for him to be so under-utilized. I don't believe our OC has even scratched the talent he has. Our owner was very excited to acquire him and it is a real shame he has not yet been able to show his talent here. Somehow in the 3rd season here he needs to used instead of being an after thought.

    If there is a failing of Bevell it is his regrettable inability to max out the talent the team has at TE. They are a perpetual afterthought. My great friend Siouxhawk who reminds us that as much as many dislike the play calls made by Bevell the last 6 years have been the best in franchise history. Sioux is right. Just about every team record is threatened or has been well surpassed by his O, crap OLines and all. That though doesn't address Bevell's blind spots and inability to quickly change gears or adjust well to what the opposition is giving him, or to adjust to what his team can't presently do. It's a true blind spot for him. Imagine a team with two TEs that needed to accounted for play after play. Graham is a talent that the team is fortunate to have, he's just very poorly under used.

    I call BS on the he shrinks, has checked out, doesn't want to play here anymore, has not developed a relationship with RW thoughts expressed here. The team has simply not used him properly, he's a receiver not a blocker, use him as a receiver TE and take advantage of his exceptional talent and length. The argument may come he broke the team's TE receiving record last year coming off a career threatening injury the season prior where his targets were few and far between. That argument is Bevell knows how to use him, whatever I say, he can be so much more. Unfortunately unless Bevell learns that he can be better used he's wasted here.

    Same argument different season. His talent is being wasted here.

    If the team wants a blocking TE the use one, and stop the pretense we have a perpetual Pro Bowl potential quality receiving TE that is rarely targeted.

    His time here has been disappointing because he could be so much more. It's frustrating to watch when the safety valve for RWs immediate under duress misery of a weak can't pass block OLine could be addressed by a creative use of Graham.

    All the trade comments are sadly with respect Maddenesque. I doubt he gets traded but not renewing him at his wish might be the reality.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:02 pm
  • RussB wrote:Just trade him already he is useless in this offense.


    He literally set team records in just about every category for TE's last year, but yeah, he sucks... :roll:
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:09 pm
  • THe thing about it, is that Wilson behind a good line wouldn't need star playmakers. Wilson's ability to make plays is a unique talent that he has. and not many others do. Give the guy a decent line, a decent RB and he'll put that opposing D on roller skates, as the commercial goes.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:16 pm
  • FormerEvil wrote:
    RussB wrote:Just trade him already he is useless in this offense.


    He literally set team records in just about every category for TE's last year, but yeah, he sucks... :roll:

    You can drool over "TEAM RECORDZ" all you want, but look at his production in NO compared to here.

    ...Yeah, 'nuff said. He's a waste of money here because we refuse to use him properly.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:21 pm
  • Imagine Wilson with an OLine that is adequate, and Graham, and Baldwin, Carson and Lockette.

    Plus the Hawks D which is the best reason for the team's 70% win rate.

    We'd be happy.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:31 pm
  • jammerhawk wrote:Maybe they should trade him b/c I doubt Bevell will ever maximize his talent or use him like he should/could be used.

    In NO he was an annual Pro Bowl attendee as a receiving TE. He was an offensive force of nature with Brees and an OC who was willing to use him in all sorts of different ways. Here he is under-utilized afterthought, used only with an occasional mid-range hook route where his length is used, or a short pass where there is little RAC chance or an occasional seam route that is more than often wide open but there is zero chance the OLine can protect RW long enough to allow it to happen. When it does it succeeds. Period. He needs to be used better, with short fades using his height, slants using his length, short hooks where the chains are moved. It is a criminal waste of talent for him to be so under-utilized. I don't believe our OC has even scratched the talent he has. Our owner was very excited to acquire him and it is a real shame he has not yet been able to show his talent here. Somehow in the 3rd season here he needs to used instead of being an after thought.

    If there is a failing of Bevell it is his regrettable inability to max out the talent the team has at TE. They are a perpetual afterthought. My great friend Siouxhawk who reminds us that as much as many dislike the play calls made by Bevell the last 6 years have been the best in franchise history. Sioux is right. Just about every team record is threatened or has been well surpassed by his O, crap OLines and all. That though doesn't address Bevell's blind spots and inability to quickly change gears or adjust well to what the opposition is giving him, or to adjust to what his team can't presently do. It's a true blind spot for him. Imagine a team with two TEs that needed to accounted for play after play. Graham is a talent that the team is fortunate to have, he's just very poorly under used.

    I call BS on the he shrinks, has checked out, doesn't want to play here anymore, has not developed a relationship with RW thoughts expressed here. The team has simply not used him properly, he's a receiver not a blocker, use him as a receiver TE and take advantage of his exceptional talent and length. The argument may come he broke the team's TE receiving record last year coming off a career threatening injury the season prior where his targets were few and far between. That argument is Bevell knows how to use him, whatever I say, he can be so much more. Unfortunately unless Bevell learns that he can be better used he's wasted here.

    Same argument different season. His talent is being wasted here.

    If the team wants a blocking TE the use one, and stop the pretense we have a perpetual Pro Bowl potential quality receiving TE that is rarely targeted.

    His time here has been disappointing because he could be so much more. It's frustrating to watch when the safety valve for RWs immediate under duress misery of a weak can't pass block OLine could be addressed by a creative use of Graham.

    So we force-feed Jimmy as you suggest and he only catches 50 percent of his passes -- then we're really screwed.

    And what about Doug? We start force-feeding Jimmy as you suggest, and you are suggesting that, and in a run-first offense, there's not enough balls to go around for Doug, who has emerged as one of the primary receivers in the league.

    Why is it so hard to comprehend that the Hawks are in no way, shape or form the New Orleans Saints. Because that's the whole premise of your argument. We just aren't and never will be as long as Pete is in charge.

    Doesn't mean Jimmy can't contribute to a Super Bowl run. The object of the game is to win games, not put up pinball scoring numbers like they do in New Orleans. There, they have to because they don't have much of a defense.

    So 8 targets in the first game, including a couple in the end zone, isn't exactly "under using" him. Sounds like he had an ankle injury against the Niners, so maybe that took him out of extended action. We'll likely learn more Wednesday.

    And until this line can block on it's own, we'd better get used to Jimmy serving both roles. Unless you want to throw caution to the wind and make Russ a sitting duck back there. I sure don't.

    And just look how Luke performed on Sunday. Quite well. The position is being utilized well. Solidify the offensive line and it will produce even more.
    Last edited by Siouxhawk on Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:34 pm
  • I think many are overestimating the potential trade returns for a player who is an UFA at the end of the year who excels in particular schemes. People are purely in wishful thinking mode if they think a team is going to fork over a quality starting tackle for a less than 1 year rental with a hefty salary. Other teams aren't blind to the possible declining production of Graham.

    Personally, I feel he's an exceptional talent who still has game changing ability and I liken his 2 poor games as nothing more than flukes-like a talented racehorse who had a puzzling bad race and the connections simply "cross out" such race and look ahead. I have no doubt Jimmy will have some huge games for us this year, but I just don't see the expected trade returns others see. They won't re-sign him or extend him though either.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:18 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    FormerEvil wrote:
    RussB wrote:Just trade him already he is useless in this offense.


    He literally set team records in just about every category for TE's last year, but yeah, he sucks... :roll:

    You can drool over "TEAM RECORDZ" all you want, but look at his production in NO compared to here.

    ...Yeah, 'nuff said. He's a waste of money here because we refuse to use him properly.


    My comment was that he is not useless in this offense. You can't be useless when you're setting "TEAM RECORDZ".

    If the question was "is he being properly utilized in this offense" I would have said no as well. Reading and comprehension is L33T Roxzors
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:23 pm
  • I can see where Hernia's frustrations about people treating the NFL like it's Madden with their trade proposals comes from. :mrgreen:
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:26 pm
  • FormerEvil wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    FormerEvil wrote:
    RussB wrote:Just trade him already he is useless in this offense.


    He literally set team records in just about every category for TE's last year, but yeah, he sucks... :roll:

    You can drool over "TEAM RECORDZ" all you want, but look at his production in NO compared to here.

    ...Yeah, 'nuff said. He's a waste of money here because we refuse to use him properly.


    My comment was that he is not useless in this offense. You can't be useless when you're setting "TEAM RECORDZ".

    If the question was "is he being properly utilized in this offense" I would have said no as well. Reading and comprehension is L33T Roxzors

    Logical fallacy. Let's say the NFL adds four new teams next year. They could have tight ends that catch 10% of their passes and are the worst in the league by far, but they'd still be setting team records.

    You can't just look at "OMG broke team recordz" and equate it to doing a great job. The Seahawks TE team record accolades are, shall we say, not in the upper echelons for the NFL as a whole.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:35 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:
    FormerEvil wrote:
    RolandDeschain wrote:
    FormerEvil wrote:
    He literally set team records in just about every category for TE's last year, but yeah, he sucks... :roll:

    You can drool over "TEAM RECORDZ" all you want, but look at his production in NO compared to here.

    ...Yeah, 'nuff said. He's a waste of money here because we refuse to use him properly.


    My comment was that he is not useless in this offense. You can't be useless when you're setting "TEAM RECORDZ".

    If the question was "is he being properly utilized in this offense" I would have said no as well. Reading and comprehension is L33T Roxzors

    Logical fallacy. Let's say the NFL adds four new teams next year. They could have tight ends that catch 10% of their passes and are the worst in the league by far, but they'd still be setting team records.

    You can't just look at "OMG broke team recordz" and equate it to doing a great job. The Seahawks TE team record accolades are, shall we say, not in the upper echelons for the NFL as a whole.


    That's your argument?? Comparing a hypothetical new NFL franchise with no history to speak of to the Seahawks because it fits your narrative that has nothing to do with my statement disputing a claim that he was useless?? Come on man. That's a clown statement, bro. Ironically enough, you went ahead and demonstrated logical fallacy in your example, but yeah, whatever, right? Additionally, your insistence in using the "OMG broke team recordz" thing is lame as hell. Not sure why you're applying it here and it takes away from your "argument".

    Look, here's the thing. I think people are overreacting here. He started last year in almost the EXACT same way. Look at the game log. He went on to make the Pro Bowl, score 1 less TD than untouchable Doug Baldwin, was out 2nd leading receiver, had the same number of 100+ yd games a DB on 30 less targets, almost had 1000 rec yds and single-handedly won the Buffalo game for us on MNF. But yeah, he's worthless.
    Last edited by FormerEvil on Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:36 pm
  • You didn't even comprehend what I said. Wow. That's my cue, I'll bow out. Think as you will, lol.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:40 pm
  • RolandDeschain wrote:You didn't even comprehend what I said. Wow. That's my cue, I'll bow out. Think as you will, lol.


    I understood perfectly what you said. It was just dumb.

    You're trying to argue something I'm not arguing. But yeah, you bow out. Do you.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:39 am
  • The coaching staff have not, nor will they ever, utilize Graham's ability to its fullest for reasons that continue to escape me. I don't want to trade him I want Bevell to use him as he should.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:30 am
  • Siouxhawk wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:Maybe they should trade him b/c I doubt Bevell will ever maximize his talent or use him like he should/could be used.

    In NO he was an annual Pro Bowl attendee as a receiving TE. He was an offensive force of nature with Brees and an OC who was willing to use him in all sorts of different ways. Here he is under-utilized afterthought, used only with an occasional mid-range hook route where his length is used, or a short pass where there is little RAC chance or an occasional seam route that is more than often wide open but there is zero chance the OLine can protect RW long enough to allow it to happen. When it does it succeeds. Period. He needs to be used better, with short fades using his height, slants using his length, short hooks where the chains are moved. It is a criminal waste of talent for him to be so under-utilized. I don't believe our OC has even scratched the talent he has. Our owner was very excited to acquire him and it is a real shame he has not yet been able to show his talent here. Somehow in the 3rd season here he needs to used instead of being an after thought.

    If there is a failing of Bevell it is his regrettable inability to max out the talent the team has at TE. They are a perpetual afterthought. My great friend Siouxhawk who reminds us that as much as many dislike the play calls made by Bevell the last 6 years have been the best in franchise history. Sioux is right. Just about every team record is threatened or has been well surpassed by his O, crap OLines and all. That though doesn't address Bevell's blind spots and inability to quickly change gears or adjust well to what the opposition is giving him, or to adjust to what his team can't presently do. It's a true blind spot for him. Imagine a team with two TEs that needed to accounted for play after play. Graham is a talent that the team is fortunate to have, he's just very poorly under used.

    I call BS on the he shrinks, has checked out, doesn't want to play here anymore, has not developed a relationship with RW thoughts expressed here. The team has simply not used him properly, he's a receiver not a blocker, use him as a receiver TE and take advantage of his exceptional talent and length. The argument may come he broke the team's TE receiving record last year coming off a career threatening injury the season prior where his targets were few and far between. That argument is Bevell knows how to use him, whatever I say, he can be so much more. Unfortunately unless Bevell learns that he can be better used he's wasted here.

    Same argument different season. His talent is being wasted here.

    If the team wants a blocking TE the use one, and stop the pretense we have a perpetual Pro Bowl potential quality receiving TE that is rarely targeted.

    His time here has been disappointing because he could be so much more. It's frustrating to watch when the safety valve for RWs immediate under duress misery of a weak can't pass block OLine could be addressed by a creative use of Graham.

    So we force-feed Jimmy as you suggest and he only catches 50 percent of his passes -- then we're really screwed.

    And what about Doug? We start force-feeding Jimmy as you suggest, and you are suggesting that, and in a run-first offense, there's not enough balls to go around for Doug, who has emerged as one of the primary receivers in the league.

    Why is it so hard to comprehend that the Hawks are in no way, shape or form the New Orleans Saints. Because that's the whole premise of your argument. We just aren't and never will be as long as Pete is in charge.

    Doesn't mean Jimmy can't contribute to a Super Bowl run. The object of the game is to win games, not put up pinball scoring numbers like they do in New Orleans. There, they have to because they don't have much of a defense.

    So 8 targets in the first game, including a couple in the end zone, isn't exactly "under using" him. Sounds like he had an ankle injury against the Niners, so maybe that took him out of extended action. We'll likely learn more Wednesday.

    And until this line can block on it's own, we'd better get used to Jimmy serving both roles. Unless you want to throw caution to the wind and make Russ a sitting duck back there. I sure don't.

    And just look how Luke performed on Sunday. Quite well. The position is being utilized well. Solidify the offensive line and it will produce even more.


    Where did he suggest force feeding him? All he did was suggest using him in similar ways to New Orleans.

    4 out of the 8 targets were at or behind the line of scrimmage week 1, just because he's getting targets doesn't mean it's not underutilization. You are right, once the OL gets better (who knows if that'll ever happen) then everything will improve.

    This offense has struggled the last few years more than its excelled. I don't care whose fault it is, but I hate to see our super bowl aspirations continue to falter because we can't consistently move the ball and score TDs on offense. If we can do that, not many teams will be able to keep up bc our defense is so sound.



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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:38 am
  • scrummymustard wrote:
    Siouxhawk wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:Maybe they should trade him b/c I doubt Bevell will ever maximize his talent or use him like he should/could be used.

    In NO he was an annual Pro Bowl attendee as a receiving TE. He was an offensive force of nature with Brees and an OC who was willing to use him in all sorts of different ways. Here he is under-utilized afterthought, used only with an occasional mid-range hook route where his length is used, or a short pass where there is little RAC chance or an occasional seam route that is more than often wide open but there is zero chance the OLine can protect RW long enough to allow it to happen. When it does it succeeds. Period. He needs to be used better, with short fades using his height, slants using his length, short hooks where the chains are moved. It is a criminal waste of talent for him to be so under-utilized. I don't believe our OC has even scratched the talent he has. Our owner was very excited to acquire him and it is a real shame he has not yet been able to show his talent here. Somehow in the 3rd season here he needs to used instead of being an after thought.

    If there is a failing of Bevell it is his regrettable inability to max out the talent the team has at TE. They are a perpetual afterthought. My great friend Siouxhawk who reminds us that as much as many dislike the play calls made by Bevell the last 6 years have been the best in franchise history. Sioux is right. Just about every team record is threatened or has been well surpassed by his O, crap OLines and all. That though doesn't address Bevell's blind spots and inability to quickly change gears or adjust well to what the opposition is giving him, or to adjust to what his team can't presently do. It's a true blind spot for him. Imagine a team with two TEs that needed to accounted for play after play. Graham is a talent that the team is fortunate to have, he's just very poorly under used.

    I call BS on the he shrinks, has checked out, doesn't want to play here anymore, has not developed a relationship with RW thoughts expressed here. The team has simply not used him properly, he's a receiver not a blocker, use him as a receiver TE and take advantage of his exceptional talent and length. The argument may come he broke the team's TE receiving record last year coming off a career threatening injury the season prior where his targets were few and far between. That argument is Bevell knows how to use him, whatever I say, he can be so much more. Unfortunately unless Bevell learns that he can be better used he's wasted here.

    Same argument different season. His talent is being wasted here.

    If the team wants a blocking TE the use one, and stop the pretense we have a perpetual Pro Bowl potential quality receiving TE that is rarely targeted.

    His time here has been disappointing because he could be so much more. It's frustrating to watch when the safety valve for RWs immediate under duress misery of a weak can't pass block OLine could be addressed by a creative use of Graham.

    So we force-feed Jimmy as you suggest and he only catches 50 percent of his passes -- then we're really screwed.

    And what about Doug? We start force-feeding Jimmy as you suggest, and you are suggesting that, and in a run-first offense, there's not enough balls to go around for Doug, who has emerged as one of the primary receivers in the league.

    Why is it so hard to comprehend that the Hawks are in no way, shape or form the New Orleans Saints. Because that's the whole premise of your argument. We just aren't and never will be as long as Pete is in charge.

    Doesn't mean Jimmy can't contribute to a Super Bowl run. The object of the game is to win games, not put up pinball scoring numbers like they do in New Orleans. There, they have to because they don't have much of a defense.

    So 8 targets in the first game, including a couple in the end zone, isn't exactly "under using" him. Sounds like he had an ankle injury against the Niners, so maybe that took him out of extended action. We'll likely learn more Wednesday.

    And until this line can block on it's own, we'd better get used to Jimmy serving both roles. Unless you want to throw caution to the wind and make Russ a sitting duck back there. I sure don't.

    And just look how Luke performed on Sunday. Quite well. The position is being utilized well. Solidify the offensive line and it will produce even more.


    Where did he suggest force feeding him? All he did was suggest using him in similar ways to New Orleans.

    4 out of the 8 targets were at or behind the line of scrimmage week 1, just because he's getting targets doesn't mean it's not underutilization. You are right, once the OL gets better (who knows if that'll ever happen) then everything will improve.

    This offense has struggled the last few years more than its excelled. I don't care whose fault it is, but I hate to see our super bowl aspirations continue to falter because we can't consistently move the ball and score TDs on offense. If we can do that, not many teams will be able to keep up bc our defense is so sound.



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    Exactly. That's the plan. And history shows our offense does indeed find its rhythm to be that complementary part of the puzzle as you suggest. My point is that Jimmy will be a big part of that resurgence.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:48 am
  • The articles are getting exactly the type of reaction they are supposed to. Everyone suddenly is talking about Jimmy.

    He was 2nd in receptions last year. 923 receiving yards, also 2nd. The guy has the talent we need, the problem is when he has to chip or take on blocks before releasing, he isn't available to catch those passes, especially early on in the progression. We all know our O Line hasn't allowed the progression to last long this year. I think last year's stats show we can use him. I think it shows both Russ and Graham have the talent they need. What they don't have is an offensive line that will allow Russ to actually get this offense going. This is Graham's last year of his contract. He's going to try to light it up if he can, so I don't put any of this on him.

    I would let him play out the year, then see how free agency does for him. Hopefully by then the Seahawks will have gotten somebody that can coach up the offensive line because they haven't been performing.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:01 am
  • FormerEvil wrote:
    Sox-n-Hawks wrote:Graham and Sherm as a package deal for Trent Williams and a late round draft pick from the Skins.


    This is absurd. I seriously hope this is a joke...


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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:38 am
  • FormerEvil wrote:
    RussB wrote:Just trade him already he is useless in this offense.


    He literally set team records in just about every category for TE's last year, but yeah, he sucks... :roll:


    Thats just an example of how sad the TE position has been for this franchise over the years and not some glowing testament to Grahams greatness. Last year was Grahams worst output since his rookie season excluding his injured season with us.

    I'm all for a trade at this point. Get whatever we can get and save some money. Regardless of what people want to think, he is not being used correctly and quite frankly, I dont even think he wants to be here anymore. He knows he's wasting time and effort in this offense. His tenure with the Seahawks could very well cost him a yellow jacket when his career is over.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:40 am
  • It's maddening that they don't use him the way he could flat out DOMINATE in this offense. But, he just clearly isn't going to be used correctly and/or doesn't fit this system. If they can get something for him, may have to move on. He's an incredible player.
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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:55 am
  • Siouxhawk wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:Maybe they should trade him b/c I doubt Bevell will ever maximize his talent or use him like he should/could be used.

    In NO he was an annual Pro Bowl attendee as a receiving TE. He was an offensive force of nature with Brees and an OC who was willing to use him in all sorts of different ways. Here he is under-utilized afterthought, used only with an occasional mid-range hook route where his length is used, or a short pass where there is little RAC chance or an occasional seam route that is more than often wide open but there is zero chance the OLine can protect RW long enough to allow it to happen. When it does it succeeds. Period. He needs to be used better, with short fades using his height, slants using his length, short hooks where the chains are moved. It is a criminal waste of talent for him to be so under-utilized. I don't believe our OC has even scratched the talent he has. Our owner was very excited to acquire him and it is a real shame he has not yet been able to show his talent here. Somehow in the 3rd season here he needs to used instead of being an after thought.

    If there is a failing of Bevell it is his regrettable inability to max out the talent the team has at TE. They are a perpetual afterthought. My great friend Siouxhawk who reminds us that as much as many dislike the play calls made by Bevell the last 6 years have been the best in franchise history. Sioux is right. Just about every team record is threatened or has been well surpassed by his O, crap OLines and all. That though doesn't address Bevell's blind spots and inability to quickly change gears or adjust well to what the opposition is giving him, or to adjust to what his team can't presently do. It's a true blind spot for him. Imagine a team with two TEs that needed to accounted for play after play. Graham is a talent that the team is fortunate to have, he's just very poorly under used.

    I call BS on the he shrinks, has checked out, doesn't want to play here anymore, has not developed a relationship with RW thoughts expressed here. The team has simply not used him properly, he's a receiver not a blocker, use him as a receiver TE and take advantage of his exceptional talent and length. The argument may come he broke the team's TE receiving record last year coming off a career threatening injury the season prior where his targets were few and far between. That argument is Bevell knows how to use him, whatever I say, he can be so much more. Unfortunately unless Bevell learns that he can be better used he's wasted here.

    Same argument different season. His talent is being wasted here.

    If the team wants a blocking TE the use one, and stop the pretense we have a perpetual Pro Bowl potential quality receiving TE that is rarely targeted.

    His time here has been disappointing because he could be so much more. It's frustrating to watch when the safety valve for RWs immediate under duress misery of a weak can't pass block OLine could be addressed by a creative use of Graham.

    So we force-feed Jimmy as you suggest and he only catches 50 percent of his passes -- then we're really screwed.

    At no point in my post above did I remotely suggest that our OC should force feed Graham.

    And what about Doug? We start force-feeding Jimmy as you suggest, and you are suggesting that, and in a run-first offense, there's not enough balls to go around for Doug, who has emerged as one of the primary receivers in the league.

    You use Doug just like he's been used over the past 2 seasons. If however, you get more first downs there are more balls to go around.

    Why is it so hard to comprehend that the Hawks are in no way, shape or form the New Orleans Saints. Because that's the whole premise of your argument. We just aren't and never will be as long as Pete is in charge.

    That's for sure, the Hawks clearly aren't the Saints and it's not the premise of my argument my premise is that graham has genuine talent as a receiving TE who can take over a game but that rarely has ever happened since he arrived, b/c he's not being used where his size and athletic superiority will allow a constant mismatch.

    Doesn't mean Jimmy can't contribute to a Super Bowl run. The object of the game is to win games, not put up pinball scoring numbers like they do in New Orleans. There, they have to because they don't have much of a defense.

    Of course, but he is being paid >$10 million per year for only a few touches a game?

    So 8 targets in the first game, including a couple in the end zone, isn't exactly "under using" him. Sounds like he had an ankle injury against the Niners, so maybe that took him out of extended action. We'll likely learn more Wednesday.

    Actually it was ten targets in game one with only two receptions, but most were no win poorly designed attempts. He got mugged in the EZ and that should have attracted a Flag with the result being a 1st down on the 1. 2 more target against SF one where he was thrown to in situation where he took a tremendous shot and the other a play where he gained a yard on a play so badly telegraphed by RW that there was zero chance of a gain. I suspect he may be out on Sunday to allow him to reboot and heal up. There were no slants or jump ball situations to him.

    And until this line can block on it's own, we'd better get used to Jimmy serving both roles. Unless you want to throw caution to the wind and make Russ a sitting duck back there. I sure don't.

    This is a separate issue from his use. Bring in the extra OLine man and use him to block if needed rather than use him as a decoy.

    And just look how Luke performed on Sunday. Quite well. The position is being utilized well. Solidify the offensive line and it will produce even more.

    In reality this proves my point Willson got two touches of the type that Graham would be a certain receiver of if he were so targetted and then the team moved away from the TE despite the reality the plays were working with Willson. I wondered why? Of course the O as a whole will improve if the OLine improves it's play. Unfortunately that presently isn't the case and making the opponents respect our TEs and have to account for them in coverage allows the rest of the O top open up as NE has proven. Bevell stubbornly refuses to consistently establish that as part of his O. He needs to accept the reality of the protection available and modify his call depending upon the reality of situation.



    I'm posting my response as coloured comments within your reply. If you read my post you'd have seen I said some positive things about Bevell, I just don't think he is very creative or takes advantage of the size mismatches or athletic mismatches our TEs could provide. He is as well slow to adjust when his initial plan is stymied, these are blindspots for him. No OC or DC is perfect, nor is any HC or GM. Continuing to try to complete the chunk plays when the pass protection is so poor is to me a weakness in his playcalling. He needs to transition faster to uptempo and vary it up and down throughout the game depending upon the circumstances. There is little doubt to me he could do better and has proven as much in the past, but to me he still has not figured out how to consistently and effectively us his talent.

    Of course we differ in our opinion, I respect yours but you refuse to acknowledge there may be some truth in the complaints made about Bevell. Firing him is no answer, nor is firing Coach Cable, changing up quicker and using the talent already here more effectively could be.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: I think they should trade graham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:37 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:It's maddening that they don't use him the way he could flat out DOMINATE in this offense. But, he just clearly isn't going to be used correctly and/or doesn't fit this system. If they can get something for him, may have to move on. He's an incredible player.

    Graham is an incredible player and it's a travesty he plays on this current Seahawks team.

    Mike Holmgren has been on the radio numberous times and has said he does not know why the Seahawks cannot properly use Graham to bring out his best talents.

    It's too bad Holmgren can't design plays for Graham, at least Holmgren knows the talent he is and Bevell does not.

    It's a damn shame, Graham is wasting his career here in Seattle.
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