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USA Today: Hawks OL is a disaster, but Wilson isn't helping

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  • hawkfan68 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawknation2017 wrote:Or maybe they could address the LT position!


    I'm open to suggestions.

    If you say Joe Thomas I'm going to put you on ignore for a week. :141847_bnono:


    Branden Albert. He retired from the Jags after being traded from the Dolphins to them but was open to coming back before they decided to release him. Thus he may be available. He is a vet who has experience playing LT and is also familiar with ZBS. The Chiefs used ZBS at times in their offense.

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20279436/branden-albert-wants-come-back-retirement-play-jacksonville-jaguars


    You might have missed the part where he wants to play for another team.
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  • IrishNW wrote:
    ludakrishna wrote:
    IrishNW wrote:I agree about his height, I think Cable even said it in an interview way back in the day. When he cant see he's going to move. Wilson needs to learn how to manipulate the pocket like drew brees does


    Brees has Sean Payton who uses quick 3 step routes at the beginning to establish rythm. Our playcalling is terrible. We either throw a screen (Our receivers outside of Baldwin can't block). Or we have routes that take 5-7 steps to develop. By that time the pressure is in his face. We need to go from a vertical to a horizontal offense if this OL philosophy is to remain.


    Oh I agree, Sean Payton is a great offensive mind and Drew Brees has mastered his offense. I wonder what Russell Wilson could do in that offense.


    I didn't like you mentioning how Wilson needs to manipulate the pocket like Drew Brees does, without giving actual specifics. Please give specifics, so I can understand your point.

    Also it's a very lazy observation to say Sean Payton is a mastermind and only mastermind coaches would know to use quick routes and throws to move the ball down the field. For me thats pretty common knowledge of adjusting to the defense.

    The ground and pound worked because defenses couldn't stop it, but were still trying to do it when it doesn't work. Gotta adapt in the NFL.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawkfan68 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawknation2017 wrote:Or maybe they could address the LT position!


    I'm open to suggestions.

    If you say Joe Thomas I'm going to put you on ignore for a week. :141847_bnono:


    Branden Albert. He retired from the Jags after being traded from the Dolphins to them but was open to coming back before they decided to release him. Thus he may be available. He is a vet who has experience playing LT and is also familiar with ZBS. The Chiefs used ZBS at times in their offense.

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20279436/branden-albert-wants-come-back-retirement-play-jacksonville-jaguars


    You might have missed the part where he wants to play for another team.


    The article did say he wanted to return to the Jaguars but that was on Aug 8 (article written) before the Jags ultimately released him on Aug 11. So he's available now.

    https://www.profootballrumors.com/2017/08/jaguars-release-branden-albert
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawk45 wrote:I was all aboard max protect. It led to Wilson holding the ball and having to dump it at times, but that was more of a process decision than "crap 2 guys are on me instantly."


    Not really. You get Graham and the RB out there instantly and Wilson is getting rid of the ball before the rush can get to him. Peyton Manning made his hay that way for years and folks never figured it out because they're too slaved to blind, simplistic concepts like "10 seconds of protection = only way to win".

    If there's "no magic way out of a terrible OL", then how do you explain his success from the pocket in 2015? It's not like we had a good OL back then.


    I layed this out at fieldgulls but I'll do a micro version here

    If the Hawks want to develop an offensive identity similar to what they had from 2012-2014 they will need to trip over themselves often trying to develop the abilities to pull it off.

    If the Hawks want to maximize their current position player talent they will not try and develop players to fit the scheme, they'll fit the scheme to the players and eat the downsides of playing spread and/or hurry up, where the Hawks have shown better capability recently.

    From where I sit, I feel like PC wants to run a specific brand of offense but doesn't have the players capable of pulling it off well at this point and is willing to eat garbage for weeks, months, years to get there again because he thinks the payoff is huge.

    For the tinkerers and troubleshooters among us though, it is hell.
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  • mrt144 wrote:From where I sit, I feel like PC wants to run a specific brand of offense but doesn't have the players capable of pulling it off well at this point and is willing to eat garbage for weeks, months, years to get there again because he thinks the payoff is huge.

    For the tinkerers and troubleshooters among us though, it is hell.


    That's exactly how I feel. Sunday seemed like Week 5 of the preseason and this isn't the first time Pete has been accused of sandbagging all the way through Halloween in order to get a late-season push.
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  • hawkfan68 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawkfan68 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    I'm open to suggestions.

    If you say Joe Thomas I'm going to put you on ignore for a week. :141847_bnono:


    Branden Albert. He retired from the Jags after being traded from the Dolphins to them but was open to coming back before they decided to release him. Thus he may be available. He is a vet who has experience playing LT and is also familiar with ZBS. The Chiefs used ZBS at times in their offense.

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20279436/branden-albert-wants-come-back-retirement-play-jacksonville-jaguars


    You might have missed the part where he wants to play for another team.


    The article did say he wanted to return to the Jaguars but that was on Aug 8 (article written) before the Jags ultimately released him on Aug 11. So he's available now.

    https://www.profootballrumors.com/2017/08/jaguars-release-branden-albert


    Ah. So I'm the one who got snotty and then didn't read the article. My bad.

    Then again, the Jags releasing him still doesn't bode well for his abilities right now...
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  • I recognize the author right away. He hates Wilson. Doesn't mean everything he argues is wrong, but he may exaggerate and elevate based on that. One of the plays he highlights is the play Brock broke down and I kinda trust Brock more than a college journalist.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawkfan68 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawkfan68 wrote:
    Branden Albert. He retired from the Jags after being traded from the Dolphins to them but was open to coming back before they decided to release him. Thus he may be available. He is a vet who has experience playing LT and is also familiar with ZBS. The Chiefs used ZBS at times in their offense.

    http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20279436/branden-albert-wants-come-back-retirement-play-jacksonville-jaguars


    You might have missed the part where he wants to play for another team.


    The article did say he wanted to return to the Jaguars but that was on Aug 8 (article written) before the Jags ultimately released him on Aug 11. So he's available now.

    https://www.profootballrumors.com/2017/08/jaguars-release-branden-albert


    Ah. So I'm the one who got snotty and then didn't read the article. My bad.

    Then again, the Jags releasing him still doesn't bode well for his abilities right now...


    Possibly but I would think that he's probably more serviceable than Odhiambo or Tobin or whoever the Seahawks have at LT currently. Albert was a pro-bowler at one point in his career, his experience at LT could be valuable. Especially if the young guys are still very raw.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawknation2017 wrote:Or maybe they could address the LT position!


    I'm open to suggestions.

    If you say Joe Thomas I'm going to put you on ignore for a week. :141847_bnono:



    Just curious, but would Brandon Albert be a good option?
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  • vin.couve12 wrote:Since the beginning of football, one of the requirements of the QB position has been to hang in the pocket and make tough throws even right down to stepping into your throw knowing you're going to get hit. This is NOT new. Nor is RW's questionable pocket presence.

    This IS a compound problem. Video evidence doesn't lend to denial here.

    "Questionable Pocket Presence" my ass, The second half of 2015 is proof that Wilson can pass from the "pocket", his numbers were sensational ONCE Cable got the O-Line to form a pocket, and then Pass protect their asses off.
    Cable was hired to put together a Run Block Offense, that's why when Rawls showed that he could scamper through creases at lightning speed, Cable mentioned that Lynch would have to make some adjustments to the way the O-Line had been restructured
    THEN 2016 happens, Pete gives Cable the task of re-booting for the Run game, thinking that we maybe had enough Backs to reestablish his run first mantra....Only problem is, Wilson's pocket disintegrates, he gets creamed, hurt, and everything goes back to square one.
    Now we are into the beginning stages of 2017, There is NO continuity, NO cohesion, NO pass protection, OR run push.
    Wilson is suppose to stand still and take the hits from the nonexistent Pocket?
    Quick passes in the flat....to WHO?
    Screen passes....to WHO?
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Then again, the Jags releasing him still doesn't bode well for his abilities right now...


    I think a big part of that was the Jags drafting Cam Robinson in the second round. They were depending on Albert to start, but when he waffled on the team, they could afford to take a hard stance or make a statement since they had other options. I imagine if their other option was Rees Odihambo, they would have been more open to swallowing their pride and taking Albert back.
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  • I said most of what I had to say on Aros thread about RW and the OP quotes an article with video evidence that pretty much proves my point.
    The one thing I want to add is the 3 step and fire is something he absolutely needs to learn as others mentioned on here.
    I do agree the play calling has sucked but our 20 million QB cannot change a call?like go into the shotgun,motion back out wide or hell put a WR in motion.I have said enough and it's fair to say I'm fustrated with our QB.I know it's not all on the OL.
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  • IndyHawk wrote:I said most of what I had to say on Aros thread about RW and the OP quotes an article with video evidence that pretty much proves my point.
    The one thing I want to add is the 3 step and fire is something he absolutely needs to learn as others mentioned on here.
    I do agree the play calling has sucked but our 20 million QB cannot change a call?like go into the shotgun,motion back out wide or hell put a WR in motion.I have said enough and it's fair to say I'm fustrated with our QB.I know it's not all on the OL.


    RW would spray a bus full of kids with a Thompson if Pete told him to. Alternatively he would also refrain from interceding if PC sprayed a bus full of kids with a Thompson. When he called that audible in the NFCCG when the Packers called a cover zero and he hit Kearse on that bomb to the EZ - that wasn't RW the genius QB in action, it was defensive recognition with a specified set of options provided by Bevell to choose from in reaction.

    I know ya'll want RW to be the OC half the time but his deference to authority in all aspects of his life doesn't allow for it.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I'm not opposed to pursuing him. I'm just irked at the pipe dream so many fans have that we can just snap our fingers and get the Browns to go "Oh sure, here's a quality LT, we don't need him, thanks for the crummy player in return" or whatever it is they think we can do. The Browns value a quality LT becase who wouldn't, and that makes him prohibitively expensive for us.

    The Browns are rebuilding and Thomas is 33 years old. Wouldn't they rather have a couple high draft picks before he starts to break down at any point?

    If Graham is traded to make cap room, he could be replaced with one of the best pass blocking TE's Gary Barnidge who's a free agent right now if the price is right.
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  • ludakrishna wrote:I've said this last year but it wasn't well received by most on this site. Russell has been David Carr'd. That alone is reason enough for a coaching overhaul. I'm afraid this staff has destroyed the potential of best QB in franchise history.


    Hate to break it too you but he is allready the best QB in franchise history lol.
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  • WilsonMVP wrote:
    ludakrishna wrote:I've said this last year but it wasn't well received by most on this site. Russell has been David Carr'd. That alone is reason enough for a coaching overhaul. I'm afraid this staff has destroyed the potential of best QB in franchise history.


    Hate to break it too you but he is allready the best QB in franchise history lol.


    Isn't that what he said? At least I read it as he's worried that the coaching staff is going to limit the ceiling of our best ever QB.
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  • massari wrote:The Browns are rebuilding and Thomas is 33 years old. Wouldn't they rather have a couple high draft picks before he starts to break down at any point?


    Probably, but I can't see them getting "a couple high draft picks" for a 33-year-old. From our end, that would feel like a Tim Ruskell desperation trade.

    There's also a good argument for the Browns to keep him, since they have a young, raw QB and don't want to David Carr him.
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  • WilsonMVP wrote:
    ludakrishna wrote:I've said this last year but it wasn't well received by most on this site. Russell has been David Carr'd. That alone is reason enough for a coaching overhaul. I'm afraid this staff has destroyed the potential of best QB in franchise history.


    Hate to break it too you but he is allready the best QB in franchise history lol.


    That's not a terribly high bar for this particularly franchise.

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  • IMO, Wilson's game has changed partly due to constantly being harassed by 300 pound D-linemen but also because of the way he analyzes every microcosm of the game. Even when he was a rookie it was obvious to me he played best from behind, late in games. In my mind that's because he's working off of muscle memory and not thinking it over.
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  • Never blame Russ for anything or be prepared to be put on BLAST! Everyone will be buying super bowl tickets again after this weekend...well until we play a good team again anyway...
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  • Rat wrote:
    massari wrote:The Browns are rebuilding and Thomas is 33 years old. Wouldn't they rather have a couple high draft picks before he starts to break down at any point?


    Probably, but I can't see them getting "a couple high draft picks" for a 33-year-old. From our end, that would feel like a Tim Ruskell desperation trade.

    There's also a good argument for the Browns to keep him, since they have a young, raw QB and don't want to David Carr him.

    There was a rumor that Cleveland sought Denver's first and second-round picks in the 2016 draft for Joe Thomas. If they can get Thomas right now for a 1st+3rd+Tobin/Odihambo then trade Graham somewhere for a 2nd round pick and Lane for a mid round pick to clear the needed cap room, I don't really think that's a desperation move. Seems like fair value. Then sign Gary Barnidge to replace Graham.

    As great as Graham is, the offence has proven to be just as good or better without him after he went down with his knee injury in 2015.

    Joe Thomas for one or two seasons until they find a LT or until Fant is healthy/develops would be perfect.
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  • Blaming Russ is ridiculous. When he's getting chased out of the pocket on every other play before it can even develop, and taking hit after hit, no wonder he's gun shy. I'm surprised he's able to function as well as he did.
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  • Rat wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Then again, the Jags releasing him still doesn't bode well for his abilities right now...


    I think a big part of that was the Jags drafting Cam Robinson in the second round. They were depending on Albert to start, but when he waffled on the team, they could afford to take a hard stance or make a statement since they had other options. I imagine if their other option was Rees Odihambo, they would have been more open to swallowing their pride and taking Albert back.


    The fact that we could have drafted Cam Robinson before the Jags did makes me sick. I didn't like it then and I really hate it now. We have had a terrible O-line the past couple of years, it is not improving, and the idea that we would pass on a guy who is NFL ready just to stockpile a bunch of 3rd and 4th round picks was insane.

    And we wound up with ... a D-line guy who was too stupid and reckless to take care of himself in the off-season and may never play a down in the NFL. And the D-line was hardly a reason for concern at this stage. Planning for the future you say? What future? Going 8-8 for the next half-decade because our O can't function properly???

    And don't anybody start with Fant getting injured. He wasn't exceptionally good to begin with, and certainly isn't the answer, even when he returns next year.

    Schneider treated this year's draft like he was a day trader, wheeling and dealing stocks. A few mid-to-late round picks will always work out, but they are no substitute for 1st round talent. His performance of late is a complete cluster f**** and the team is paying a big price. for his bad decisisons
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  • Been saying on this site for a couple years now that this one flaw in Wilson's game is what keeps him from being a top (and maybe the top) QB in the NFL. And of course I'm been getting crap for saying it for the same couple years. :lol:

    Only two things I disagree with about the article (which points out that Wilson's line is atrocious but he also creates some of his own problems):

    1) Height is a complete and total non-issue. It's lazy analysis. Drew Brees is a top 2 or 3 QB in the NFL in throwing from the pocket and manipulating rushers directions to his advantage while in the pocket, and he's an inch taller than Wilson. Over the course of their careers Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia also became quite good at using the pocket to their advantage.

    2) That Wilson is doing this because he's been beaten into fear by his bad O-line is also bad analysis. He's been running into pressure from above the pocket, ping-ponging into sacks in the pocket when he does step in, and running away from phantom pressure for his whole career. Since the first snap he has taken in his NFL career (I didn't watch him in college) he has been bailing as based on an internal clock and where he is in his progression, not pressure. He wasn't coaxed into that by a bad Oline, he has always done it.

    And just to reiterate something I've said before, he's quite lucky in that this one major flaw is a QB flaw that QBs can still grow out of into their 30s. Roethlisberger played a lot like Wilson (almost only throwing from above the pocket, putting his OTs in unwinnable conflicts by trying to escape laterally or backwards rather than just stepping into the pocket, etc) and then in his early 30s something clicked and he turned into a good pocket passer. Wilson very much could still be on that trajectory, and there are other things that he does much better than Roethlisberger too already .
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  • Popeyejones wrote:Been saying on this site for a couple years now that this one flaw in Wilson's game is what keeps him from being a top (and maybe the top) QB in the NFL. And of course I'm been getting crap for saying it for the same couple years. :lol:

    Only two things I disagree with about the article (which points out that Wilson's line is atrocious but he also creates some of his own problems):

    1) Height is a complete and total non-issue. It's lazy analysis. Drew Brees is a top 2 or 3 QB in the NFL in throwing from the pocket and manipulating rushers directions to his advantage while in the pocket, and he's an inch taller than Wilson. Over the course of their careers Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia also became quite good at using the pocket to their advantage.

    2) That Wilson is doing this because he's been beaten into fear by his bad O-line is also bad analysis. He's been running into pressure from above the pocket, ping-ponging into sacks in the pocket when he does step in, and running away from phantom pressure for his whole career. Since the first snap he has taken in his NFL career (I didn't watch him in college) he has been bailing as based on an internal clock and where he is in his progression, not pressure. He wasn't coaxed into that by a bad Oline, he has always done it.

    And just to reiterate something I've said before, he's quite lucky in that this one major flaw is a QB flaw that QBs can still grow out of into their 30s. Roethlisberger played a lot like Wilson (almost only throwing from above the pocket, putting his OTs in unwinnable conflicts by trying to escape laterally or backwards rather than just stepping into the pocket, etc) and then in his early 30s something clicked and he turned into a good pocket passer. Wilson very much could still be on that trajectory, and there are other things that he does much better than Roethlisberger too already .


    Spot on, always loved Wilson, but his pocket presence is his flaw in exactly the way you described. At GB he moved laterally out the pocket while a wr it te(i think) was blocking. He could have stepped up to run but keeps moving sideways making it easy for the defender to disengage.

    I think if our o-line was serviceable though, Wilson might have already grown out of that. Hell, maybe our scramble offense impedes his growth in that area. Why step into the pocket when our offense is designed for scrambling?
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  • scutterhawk wrote:The second half of 2015 is proof that Wilson can pass from the "pocket", his numbers were sensational ONCE Cable got the O-Line to form a pocket, and then Pass protect their asses off.


    scutterhawk wrote:THEN 2016 happens, Pete gives Cable the task of re-booting for the Run game, thinking that we maybe had enough Backs to reestablish his run first mantra....Only problem is, Wilson's pocket disintegrates, he gets creamed, hurt, and everything goes back to square one.


    The problem with your statement is that you're just assuming 2015's line was good because Wilson was good, and that 2016 Wilson was bad because his OL was bad.

    But you aren't remembering it right.

    2015's OL wasn't good. It still included Garry Gilliam, Justin Britt at the wrong position, J.R. Sweezy, and Patrick Lewis. Only one of those guys is still here (and the general consensus is that Gilliam and Sweezy were both laughably overpaid). Yet Wilson was great.

    2016's OL was worse, yet Wilson still had his great moments. I don't remember anyone complaining about the OL when we beat New England, Philadelphia, or Detroit. Or the Rams and 49ers games that we won.

    If you're looking for an explanation, Wilson's good spells fit far better with different gameplanning (i.e. get the ball out quickly) than it does with the talent quality of his OL. But too many of us are ingrained with one simple axiom - "success = good pass protection" - and have never really paid attention to how other factors can mask OL deficiency.
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  • It was pretty cold this morning. Thx a lot Russ
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  • SpokaneHawks wrote:IMO, Wilson's game has changed partly due to constantly being harassed by 300 pound D-linemen but also because of the way he analyzes every microcosm of the game. Even when he was a rookie it was obvious to me he played best from behind, late in games. In my mind that's because he's working off of muscle memory and not thinking it over.


    That is a fascinating premise and one that might be quite accurate.
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  • Popeyejones wrote:Been saying on this site for a couple years now that this one flaw in Wilson's game is what keeps him from being a top (and maybe the top) QB in the NFL. And of course I'm been getting crap for saying it for the same couple years. :lol:

    Only two things I disagree with about the article (which points out that Wilson's line is atrocious but he also creates some of his own problems):

    1) Height is a complete and total non-issue. It's lazy analysis. Drew Brees is a top 2 or 3 QB in the NFL in throwing from the pocket and manipulating rushers directions to his advantage while in the pocket, and he's an inch taller than Wilson. Over the course of their careers Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia also became quite good at using the pocket to their advantage.

    2) That Wilson is doing this because he's been beaten into fear by his bad O-line is also bad analysis. He's been running into pressure from above the pocket, ping-ponging into sacks in the pocket when he does step in, and running away from phantom pressure for his whole career. Since the first snap he has taken in his NFL career (I didn't watch him in college) he has been bailing as based on an internal clock and where he is in his progression, not pressure. He wasn't coaxed into that by a bad Oline, he has always done it.

    And just to reiterate something I've said before, he's quite lucky in that this one major flaw is a QB flaw that QBs can still grow out of into their 30s. Roethlisberger played a lot like Wilson (almost only throwing from above the pocket, putting his OTs in unwinnable conflicts by trying to escape laterally or backwards rather than just stepping into the pocket, etc) and then in his early 30s something clicked and he turned into a good pocket passer. Wilson very much could still be on that trajectory, and there are other things that he does much better than Roethlisberger too already .


    Good points. I will say that Drew is at least 2 inches taller than RW. Don't care about the stat heights. I've stood next to both. Stood next to Russ more than once and was shocked by how short he really is. 5-10 tops. Long arms, huge hands, but a short dude. Beyond the height issue, Drew just has better presence/timing/ability to manipulate from within the pocket. Maybe he just has better eyes/mind for it? Hard to say - it's what makes some QB's good and others that rare "great" in the league.

    As for Big Ben - don't think Russ has the physical stamina at his current pace of abuse to be afforded time to develop into a great pocket passer which is essential for a long QB life in this league. Ben R. is huge/strong. (And even then he's suffered injuries that have put him out of commission for a while) Plus he was able to develop from a visual perspective RW will never have due to his small stature.

    RW's game requires a top notch running game IMO. Without that, his weaknesses are far too vulnerable. He doesn't seem to posses the ability to control the offense from the pocket and without that, any deep runs into the playoffs are unlikely. If Carson develops into a legit running threat, and the O-Line somehow transforms into something resembling competent, then RW can survive and even thrive in games.

    Right now he's struggling. That is clear. He's lost a half-step and a bunch of confidence.

    They paid him the big bucks but didn't work to protect him back there. That blame falls on coaching/management and partly RW himself for not demanding it. He's too passive.
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  • It's a double edged sword, and Russell knows it.

    What has Pete preached to the offense since day one.................PROTECT THE BALL AT ALL COSTS.

    That's why Russell's hesitant to gamble, or just let it fly. This is what most of you are mistaking for Russell being indecisive or not helping out the offense.

    He's been taught since day one that it's better to run around and throw the ball away, rather than take risks.

    Not absolving Russell at all, I wish he would take more chances and trust his very talented group of receivers to make plays. But a lot of the time he errs on the side of caution, and that comes across and hesitant.
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  • He's lost a step AND a bunch of self-confidence? Ok........
    I look forward to seeing him throw up a 30 burger and having people say "well, it was just the Niners"

    Lacking self confidence in his O Line? Absolutely.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:It's a double edged sword, and Russell knows it.

    What has Pete preached to the offense since day one.................PROTECT THE BALL AT ALL COSTS.

    That's why Russell's hesitant to gamble, or just let it fly. This is what most of you are mistaking for Russell being indecisive or not helping out the offense.

    He's been taught since day one that it's better to run around and throw the ball away, rather than take risks.

    Not absolving Russell at all, I wish he would take more chances and trust his very talented group of receivers to make plays. But a lot of the time he errs on the side of caution, and that comes across and hesitant.


    Agree. I've been attempting to make this point for quite some time. Good luck, it seems to not sink in. #1 priority taking care of the ball, means no forced throws, and finding 2nd and 3rd reads that there is no time for.
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  • SoulfishHawk wrote:He's lost a step AND a bunch of self-confidence? Ok........
    I look forward to seeing him throw up a 30 burger and having people say "well, it was just the Niners"

    Lacking self confidence in his O Line? Absolutely.


    I don't think people have watched the Niners this year, they have a pretty damn good young defense, especially the front seven.

    So I think the people who think this is going to be a blowout are in for a shock Sunday. I expect more offensive struggling, and more of a 17-7 type game.
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  • Fair enough, let's just get a win :irishdrinkers:
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:The second half of 2015 is proof that Wilson can pass from the "pocket", his numbers were sensational ONCE Cable got the O-Line to form a pocket, and then Pass protect their asses off.


    scutterhawk wrote:THEN 2016 happens, Pete gives Cable the task of re-booting for the Run game, thinking that we maybe had enough Backs to reestablish his run first mantra....Only problem is, Wilson's pocket disintegrates, he gets creamed, hurt, and everything goes back to square one.


    The problem with your statement is that you're just assuming 2015's line was good because Wilson was good, and that 2016 Wilson was bad because his OL was bad.

    But you aren't remembering it right.

    2015's OL wasn't good. It still included Garry Gilliam, Justin Britt at the wrong position, J.R. Sweezy, and Patrick Lewis. Only one of those guys is still here (and the general consensus is that Gilliam and Sweezy were both laughably overpaid). Yet Wilson was great.

    2016's OL was worse, yet Wilson still had his great moments. I don't remember anyone complaining about the OL when we beat New England, Philadelphia, or Detroit. Or the Rams and 49ers games that we won.

    If you're looking for an explanation, Wilson's good spells fit far better with different gameplanning (i.e. get the ball out quickly) than it does with the talent quality of his OL. But too many of us are ingrained with one simple axiom - "success = good pass protection" - and have never really paid attention to how other factors can mask OL deficiency.


    2015 is upholds scutterhawk's argument more than yours IMO. We couldn't pass early in the season, and that coincided with the pattern here of the line not reaching minimum workable threshold until game 4 or 5. Unless you're prepared to deny that pattern which has held every year of Pete's tenure.

    The explanation that everyone is blind seems very convenient and smug. I definitely believe that playcalling can mitigate OL play. And I definitely agree that Peyton Manning and Tom Brady can operate with less protection. But they are 2 of the best quarterbacks in NFL history at doing so. Wilson doesn't show the same signs of mastery of the short middle that they do. He's not the same QB.

    Add to that, if there is a magic playcalling bean then Pete is determined not to use it. As Sgt has pointed out, he wants to run first and protect the ball. So given our QB and our HC, the only way forward is improved OL play.

    Finally, it doesn't enhance the argument to suggest that the blind proles think QBs need 10s in the pocket. Wilson was sacked 3 times vs Green Bay and at least 2 of those were instant jailbreaks. The 2 plays in a row where Glowinski and Joeckel whiffed. The pressure was also instant on the first drive. Also, we could not run the ball at all. Surely we can arrive at agreement that the OL must play better than they did in that game at a minimum.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:He's lost a step AND a bunch of self-confidence? Ok........
    I look forward to seeing him throw up a 30 burger and having people say "well, it was just the Niners"

    Lacking self confidence in his O Line? Absolutely.


    I don't think people have watched the Niners this year, they have a pretty damn good young defense, especially the front seven.

    So I think the people who think this is going to be a blowout are in for a shock Sunday. I expect more offensive struggling, and more of a 17-7 type game.


    I was just having this conversation on another board.

    We better not take the Niners lightly. Could end up spanked.

    And then the real gnashing of teeth around here will commence!

    Hopefully the Hawks have a strong bounce-back game but I'm worried. The difference between some success and abysmal failure is pretty thin with the team this season IMO.
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  • semiahmoo wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:He's lost a step AND a bunch of self-confidence? Ok........
    I look forward to seeing him throw up a 30 burger and having people say "well, it was just the Niners"

    Lacking self confidence in his O Line? Absolutely.


    I don't think people have watched the Niners this year, they have a pretty damn good young defense, especially the front seven.

    So I think the people who think this is going to be a blowout are in for a shock Sunday. I expect more offensive struggling, and more of a 17-7 type game.


    I was just having this conversation on another board.

    We better not take the Niners lightly. Could end up spanked.

    And then the real gnashing of teeth around here will commence!

    Hopefully the Hawks have a strong bounce-back game but I'm worried. The difference between some success and abysmal failure is pretty thin with the team this season IMO.


    No Rueben Foster is the best news I've heard all week. Dude's a beast.

    Unless we make some terrible turnovers, I expect us to win going away in the 4th because our defense should handle the Niner offense.

    But yeah, anyone looking for our offense to get healthy against the Niners? Nope, I don't see that happening.
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  • hawkfan68 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawkfan68 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    You might have missed the part where he wants to play for another team.


    The article did say he wanted to return to the Jaguars but that was on Aug 8 (article written) before the Jags ultimately released him on Aug 11. So he's available now.

    https://www.profootballrumors.com/2017/08/jaguars-release-branden-albert


    Ah. So I'm the one who got snotty and then didn't read the article. My bad.

    Then again, the Jags releasing him still doesn't bode well for his abilities right now...


    Possibly but I would think that he's probably more serviceable than Odhiambo or Tobin or whoever the Seahawks have at LT currently. Albert was a pro-bowler at one point in his career, his experience at LT could be valuable. Especially if the young guys are still very raw.


    Speaking of the Jags, am I the only one thats pissed we passed on Cam Robinson in the draft and one of their castoffs is starting for us right now?
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    semiahmoo wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:He's lost a step AND a bunch of self-confidence? Ok........
    I look forward to seeing him throw up a 30 burger and having people say "well, it was just the Niners"

    Lacking self confidence in his O Line? Absolutely.


    I don't think people have watched the Niners this year, they have a pretty damn good young defense, especially the front seven.

    So I think the people who think this is going to be a blowout are in for a shock Sunday. I expect more offensive struggling, and more of a 17-7 type game.


    I was just having this conversation on another board.

    We better not take the Niners lightly. Could end up spanked.

    And then the real gnashing of teeth around here will commence!

    Hopefully the Hawks have a strong bounce-back game but I'm worried. The difference between some success and abysmal failure is pretty thin with the team this season IMO.


    No Rueben Foster is the best news I've heard all week. Dude's a beast.

    Unless we make some terrible turnovers, I expect us to win going away in the 4th because our defense should handle the Niner offense.

    But yeah, anyone looking for our offense to get healthy against the Niners? Nope, I don't see that happening.


    It will be a good measuring stick. Every year as we start terribly on the OL the opposing defenses get pumped up in hindsight. If we are as bad as we were last year, then we will make the teams we face early all look like the 85 Bears.
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  • hawk45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:The second half of 2015 is proof that Wilson can pass from the "pocket", his numbers were sensational ONCE Cable got the O-Line to form a pocket, and then Pass protect their asses off.


    scutterhawk wrote:THEN 2016 happens, Pete gives Cable the task of re-booting for the Run game, thinking that we maybe had enough Backs to reestablish his run first mantra....Only problem is, Wilson's pocket disintegrates, he gets creamed, hurt, and everything goes back to square one.


    The problem with your statement is that you're just assuming 2015's line was good because Wilson was good, and that 2016 Wilson was bad because his OL was bad.

    But you aren't remembering it right.

    2015's OL wasn't good. It still included Garry Gilliam, Justin Britt at the wrong position, J.R. Sweezy, and Patrick Lewis. Only one of those guys is still here (and the general consensus is that Gilliam and Sweezy were both laughably overpaid). Yet Wilson was great.

    2016's OL was worse, yet Wilson still had his great moments. I don't remember anyone complaining about the OL when we beat New England, Philadelphia, or Detroit. Or the Rams and 49ers games that we won.

    If you're looking for an explanation, Wilson's good spells fit far better with different gameplanning (i.e. get the ball out quickly) than it does with the talent quality of his OL. But too many of us are ingrained with one simple axiom - "success = good pass protection" - and have never really paid attention to how other factors can mask OL deficiency.


    2015 is upholds scutterhawk's argument more than yours IMO. We couldn't pass early in the season, and that coincided with the pattern here of the line not reaching minimum workable threshold until game 4 or 5. Unless you're prepared to deny that pattern which has held every year of Pete's tenure.

    The explanation that everyone is blind seems very convenient and smug. I definitely believe that playcalling can mitigate OL play. And I definitely agree that Peyton Manning and Tom Brady can operate with less protection. But they are 2 of the best quarterbacks in NFL history at doing so. Wilson doesn't show the same signs of mastery of the short middle that they do. He's not the same QB.

    Add to that, if there is a magic playcalling bean then Pete is determined not to use it. As Sgt has pointed out, he wants to run first and protect the ball. So given our QB and our HC, the only way forward is improved OL play.

    Finally, it doesn't enhance the argument to suggest that the blind proles think QBs need 10s in the pocket. Wilson was sacked 3 times vs Green Bay and at least 2 of those were instant jailbreaks. The 2 plays in a row where Glowinski and Joeckel whiffed. The pressure was also instant on the first drive. Also, we could not run the ball at all. Surely we can arrive at agreement that the OL must play better than they did in that game at a minimum.


    First of all, I didn't call anyone "blind", so quit putting words in my mouth.

    Second, of course the OL needs to improve, and of course some of the pressures were instant. My point is, Pete is continuing to run an offense that naturally leads to a lot of hustle pressures, so he bears part of the responsibility for the result.
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:First of all, I didn't call anyone "blind", so quit putting words in my mouth.

    Second, of course the OL needs to improve, and of course some of the pressures were instant. My point is, Pete is continuing to run an offense that naturally leads to a lot of hustle pressures, so he bears part of the responsibility for the result.


    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Not really. You get Graham and the RB out there instantly and Wilson is getting rid of the ball before the rush can get to him. Peyton Manning made his hay that way for years and folks never figured it out because they're too slaved to blind, simplistic concepts like "10 seconds of protection = only way to win".
    .


    I don't know how else to interpret the above other than being dismissive to opposing viewpoints as being blind and facile but okay. Unless "blind" means something other than "blind."

    I think we can agree that Pete deliberately went away from last-half of 2015 passing concepts to get back to his protect-the-ball, run-first approach. And that this doesn't help our OL, especially when we can't run on first down and can't throw on obvs passing downs.
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  • Luckily it doesn't matter if the fans take a team lightly, we don't play on the team :2thumbs:

    That being said, there's no way they are taking the Niners lightly
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  • hawk45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:First of all, I didn't call anyone "blind", so quit putting words in my mouth.

    Second, of course the OL needs to improve, and of course some of the pressures were instant. My point is, Pete is continuing to run an offense that naturally leads to a lot of hustle pressures, so he bears part of the responsibility for the result.


    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Not really. You get Graham and the RB out there instantly and Wilson is getting rid of the ball before the rush can get to him. Peyton Manning made his hay that way for years and folks never figured it out because they're too slaved to blind, simplistic concepts like "10 seconds of protection = only way to win".
    .


    I don't know how else to interpret the above other than being dismissive to opposing viewpoints as being blind and facile but okay.

    I think we can agree that Pete deliberately went away from last-half of 2015 passing concepts to get back to his protect-the-ball, run-first approach. And that this doesn't help our OL, especially when we can't run on first down and can't throw on obvs passing downs.


    Well that's the thing that sucks, doesn't it?

    The OL can be helped in the short term by taking the load off of them, or they can stumble and trip their way through the motions of learning how to be better at the specific thing the entire offensive apparatus wants them to be at. It wouldnt surprise me to see a change to the more spread pass concepts if at some point in the season we're under the gun to just win the damn game or miss out on playoffs.
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  • hawk45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:First of all, I didn't call anyone "blind", so quit putting words in my mouth.

    Second, of course the OL needs to improve, and of course some of the pressures were instant. My point is, Pete is continuing to run an offense that naturally leads to a lot of hustle pressures, so he bears part of the responsibility for the result.


    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Not really. You get Graham and the RB out there instantly and Wilson is getting rid of the ball before the rush can get to him. Peyton Manning made his hay that way for years and folks never figured it out because they're too slaved to blind, simplistic concepts like "10 seconds of protection = only way to win".
    .


    I don't know how else to interpret the above other than being dismissive to opposing viewpoints as being blind and facile but okay. Unless "blind" means something other than "blind."

    I think we can agree that Pete deliberately went away from last-half of 2015 passing concepts to get back to his protect-the-ball, run-first approach. And that this doesn't help our OL, especially when we can't run on first down and can't throw on obvs passing downs.


    I called the concept blind and simplistic, not any person.

    I do think we are agreeing on how Pete is handling the offense.
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  • There is nothing wrong with Russell or our Oline. Russell needs to trust himself and his teammates more is the only real problem I can see.
    The Oline is holding up and giving Russell time to get rid of the ball, he is just holding on to it to long.
    Go back and look at the films, our receivers were getting open and giving Russell plenty of options, he is just seems terrified of throwing an interception.
    So instead of taking the chance of doing that, he opts to hold on to the ball and let us get our asses beat that way instead.
    That's been my take so far this season.


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  • pacific101 wrote:There is nothing wrong with Russell or our Oline. Russell needs to trust himself and his teammates more is the only real problem I can see.
    The Oline is holding up and giving Russell time to get rid of the ball, he is just holding on to it to long.
    Go back and look at the films, our receivers were getting open and giving Russell plenty of options, he just seems terrified of throwing an interception.
    So instead of taking the chance of doing that, he opts to hold on to the ball and let us get our asses beat that way instead.
    That's been my take so far this season.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I am a tried and true Seattle Seahawks 12th man, as are all of my children and grandchildren. I wholeheartedly believe that the 12th man, is the true heart and soul of the Seahawks. As goes the 12th man, so go the Seahawks. The Seahawks are only as strong as their true Heart & Soul.
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  • pacific101 wrote:There is nothing wrong with Russell or our Oline. Russell needs to trust himself and his teammates more is the only real problem I can see.
    The Oline is holding up and giving Russell time to get rid of the ball, he is just holding on to it to long.
    Go back and look at the films, our receivers were getting open and giving Russell plenty of options, he is just seems terrified of throwing an interception.
    So instead of taking the chance of doing that, he opts to hold on to the ball and let us get our asses beat that way instead.
    That's been my take so far this season.


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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Still think it might be his height that's partially causing him to do this.

    Don't worry, I still think he's an amazing QB and still want him on no team other than the Seahawks.

    A consistently crappy O-line will kill every QB in the NFL, if it continues long enough. Look at David Carr and Marc Bulger. Height plays a role sometimes with this I'm sure, but I think Russell is, quite simply, hearing footsteps that aren't there more and more often due to how often there ARE footsteps. It's like when you play a horror game and the longer you play, the more antsy you are at the tiniest sound, lol.
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  • And the sky is blue and water is wet.

    But RW did promise he'd stop sucking so hopefully the offense will get better soon.

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