ZBS Scheme has been Neutered by the Rules

chris98251

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The demise of the ZBS in rule changes
What the original design is about going back to the 1980’s and then the rule changes. The system is used a lot, we are blaming College for the lack of lineman, I think it’s the rule changes that take away the options that NFL coaches have relied on over the years is block types and where they can block, this limits effectiveness in space and support blocking on the rest of the field. It also may show a bit of stubbornness to be attached to a scheme that the rules have nullified a lot of its benefits based on what was allowed prior to rule changes. The Power run scheme which we used a lot in the second half of last season to compliment our type of lineman along with Reese as a Fullback was successful, we went away from that again the start of this season. Seen it again in the second half against the Colts when Lacy had success.

Also Gibbs puts a lot on footwork and smarts, our guys have heavy feet and the mental errors suggest not a high football IQ, then we have size, we're the size of a power blocking scheme, in fact the NFL is going with lighter except Nose Tackle D lineman these days that have quick and agility, hmmm sounds like the model for ZBS except on defense. Also with the three step mandate by RB’s and a lousy or outdated scheme we are taking away instincts of the RB.

Please read the article before commenting if you don't know the scheme, other wise your like a Jiffy Lube technician commenting on how to build a 7 second Funny Car.

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/7/25/5928877/alex-gibbs-seahawks-broncos-texans-nfl-zone-blocking



1986
• Blocking below the waist on punts is prohibited during the entire down.

• The “lure” technique is prohibited. When a tackle shows pass set, a teammate lined up outside him cannot chop a defender who is lined up over the tackle, even if the tackle and defender are not engaged (a “lure”).


1987
• An offensive lineman may not clip a defender who, at the snap, is aligned on the line of scrimmage opposite another offensive lineman who is more than one position away, when the defender is responding to the flow of the ball away from the blocker.

• Example: A tackle cannot clip the nose tackle on a sweep to the opposite side.

1992
• For the first time the Chop Block is illegal on some running players: It is illegal on a running play for an offensive player who is lined up in the backfield at the snap to deliberately block a defensive player in the thigh or lower (chop) if the defensive player is engaged by an offensive player who was on the line of scrimmage at the snap. This action is prohibited whether on or behind the line of scrimmage in an area that extends laterally to the position originally occupied by the tight end on either side.
1996
• On running plays, a chop block is prohibited by an offensive player who is aligned more than one position away from the engaged defender when the block occurs away from the flow of the play.
• A defender cannot be chopped even after he has disengaged from an offensive opponent, if he is still confronting the offensive player.
• Prohibition of the "lure" technique is applicable all along the offensive line, instead of only to a player outside a tackle.
1999
• Blocking from behind, at, or below the knees in the clipping zone is prohibited.
• After a blocking attempt in close line play, a blocker is prohibited from rolling up on the back of a defender's legs (Unnecessary Roughness).
2002
• The Chop Block technique is illegal on all kicking plays.

2005
• An offensive player who is aligned in the tackle box at the snap and moves to a position outside the box is prohibited from initiating contact on the side or below the waist of an opponent if the blocker is moving toward his own end line and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side ("Peel Back Block"). The near shoulder of the blocker must be in front of his opponent's body.
2009
• It is an illegal “blindside” block if the blocker is moving toward his own endline and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side, and the initial force of the contact by the blocker’s helmet, forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of an opponent.

2013
• “Peel back” blocks below the waist are illegal inside the tackle box.
2014
• Clipping and unnecessary roughness penalties are expanded to prohibit blockers from rolling up on the side of a defender’s leg.
2015
• Rules prohibiting illegal “peel back” blocks are extended to cover all offensive players.

• Offensive backs are prohibited from chopping a defensive player engaged above the waist by another offensive player outside the tackle box.

2016
• Rules prohibiting chop blocks are extended to include running plays, making all instances of chop blocks illegal.
2017
• Prohibits crackback blocks by a backfield player in motion, even if he is not more than two yards outside the tackle when the ball is snapped.
 

IndyHawk

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chris98251":3rjt238a said:
The demise of the ZBS in rule changes
What the original design is about going back to the 1980’s and then the rule changes. The system is used a lot, we are blaming College for the lack of lineman, I think it’s the rule changes that take away the options that NFL coaches have relied on over the years is block types and where they can block, this limits effectiveness in space and support blocking on the rest of the field. It also may show a bit of stubbornness to be attached to a scheme that the rules have nullified a lot of its benefits based on what was allowed prior to rule changes. The Power run scheme which we used a lot in the second half of last season to compliment our type of lineman along with Reese as a Fullback was successful, we went away from that again the start of this season. Seen it again in the second half against the Colts when Lacy had success.

Also Gibbs puts a lot on footwork and smarts, our guys have heavy feet and the mental errors suggest not a high football IQ, then we have size, we're the size of a power blocking scheme, in fact the NFL is going with lighter except Nose Tackle D lineman these days that have quick and agility, hmmm sounds like the model for ZBS except on defense. Also with the three step mandate by RB’s and a lousy or outdated scheme we are taking away instincts of the RB.

Please read the article before commenting if you don't know the scheme, other wise your like a Jiffy Lube technician commenting on how to build a 7 second Funny Car.

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/7/25/5928877/alex-gibbs-seahawks-broncos-texans-nfl-zone-blocking



1986
• Blocking below the waist on punts is prohibited during the entire down.

• The “lure” technique is prohibited. When a tackle shows pass set, a teammate lined up outside him cannot chop a defender who is lined up over the tackle, even if the tackle and defender are not engaged (a “lure”).


1987
• An offensive lineman may not clip a defender who, at the snap, is aligned on the line of scrimmage opposite another offensive lineman who is more than one position away, when the defender is responding to the flow of the ball away from the blocker.

• Example: A tackle cannot clip the nose tackle on a sweep to the opposite side.

1992
• For the first time the Chop Block is illegal on some running players: It is illegal on a running play for an offensive player who is lined up in the backfield at the snap to deliberately block a defensive player in the thigh or lower (chop) if the defensive player is engaged by an offensive player who was on the line of scrimmage at the snap. This action is prohibited whether on or behind the line of scrimmage in an area that extends laterally to the position originally occupied by the tight end on either side.
1996
• On running plays, a chop block is prohibited by an offensive player who is aligned more than one position away from the engaged defender when the block occurs away from the flow of the play.
• A defender cannot be chopped even after he has disengaged from an offensive opponent, if he is still confronting the offensive player.
• Prohibition of the "lure" technique is applicable all along the offensive line, instead of only to a player outside a tackle.
1999
• Blocking from behind, at, or below the knees in the clipping zone is prohibited.
• After a blocking attempt in close line play, a blocker is prohibited from rolling up on the back of a defender's legs (Unnecessary Roughness).
2002
• The Chop Block technique is illegal on all kicking plays.

2005
• An offensive player who is aligned in the tackle box at the snap and moves to a position outside the box is prohibited from initiating contact on the side or below the waist of an opponent if the blocker is moving toward his own end line and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side ("Peel Back Block"). The near shoulder of the blocker must be in front of his opponent's body.
2009
• It is an illegal “blindside” block if the blocker is moving toward his own endline and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side, and the initial force of the contact by the blocker’s helmet, forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of an opponent.

2013
• “Peel back” blocks below the waist are illegal inside the tackle box.
2014
• Clipping and unnecessary roughness penalties are expanded to prohibit blockers from rolling up on the side of a defender’s leg.
2015
• Rules prohibiting illegal “peel back” blocks are extended to cover all offensive players.

• Offensive backs are prohibited from chopping a defensive player engaged above the waist by another offensive player outside the tackle box.

2016
• Rules prohibiting chop blocks are extended to include running plays, making all instances of chop blocks illegal.
2017
• Prohibits crackback blocks by a backfield player in motion, even if he is not more than two yards outside the tackle when the ball is snapped.
Love this post and the imformation provided..Lol on Jiffy Lube tech :2thumbs:
 

quadsas

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So youre just confirming that our coaching staff is completely incompetent when it comes to oline? Our oline sucks, so lets use a scheme that isnt supposed to work, yay
 

kf3339

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If I remember correctly, last year in the playoffs against the Lions Rawls ran for about 160 yards behind what I believe was mostly a power blocking scheme by our O-Line in that game. In the next game against Atlanta we went back to the ZBS and lost heavily.

Yesterday in the second half they went back to that Power blocking scheme after a pathetic first half. Our offense and rushing attack took off and blew open the game. Why in God's name doesn't PC and Cable see that and open their eyes?

It's so obvious that we are a far better offense in that O-Line power blocking scheme than with the now outdated ZBS. Perhaps someone decided to slap both of them on the head multiple times to perhaps knock some sense into them. For the love of God I hope so.
 

Vpk0718

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then change the scheme. don't blame the league for our incompetence.
 

mikeak

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kf3339":23df1t38 said:
If I remember correctly, last year in the playoffs against the Lions Rawls ran for about 160 yards behind what I believe was mostly a power blocking scheme by our O-Line in that game. In the next game against Atlanta we went back to the ZBS and lost heavily.

Yesterday in the second half they went back to that Power blocking scheme after a pathetic first half. Our offense and rushing attack took off and blew open the game. Why in God's name doesn't PC and Cable see that and open their eyes?

It's so obvious that we are a far better offense in that O-Line power blocking scheme than with the now outdated ZBS. Perhaps someone decided to know both of them in the head multiple times to perhaps knock some sense into them. For the love of God I hope so.

Yes but in all honesty they all knew we were running in that fourth quarter when we were getting huge gains......oh wait

and by the way once we started running successfully how open was the roll-out PA pass every time......
 

mistaowen

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kf3339":1nuovclc said:
If I remember correctly, last year in the playoffs against the Lions Rawls ran for about 160 yards behind what I believe was mostly a power blocking scheme by our O-Line in that game. In the next game against Atlanta we went back to the ZBS and lost heavily.

Yesterday in the second half they went back to that Power blocking scheme after a pathetic first half. Our offense and rushing attack took off and blew open the game. Why in God's name doesn't PC and Cable see that and open their eyes?

It's so obvious that we are a far better offense in that O-Line power blocking scheme than with the now outdated ZBS. Perhaps someone decided to know both of them in the head multiple times to perhaps knock some sense into them. For the love of God I hope so.

Wanted to bring this up as well. It appeared like they switched to a power blocking scheme in the second half and the interior line was getting some awesome push up the middle. Collinsworth mentioned it a few times and highlighted how far down field they were pushing their man. Bizarre why they keep trying to force the ZBS, especially when they go for athleticism over general technique on the line.

It also is crazy how different this offense looks when the running game is effective. Linebackers have to stay honest and PA actually works. Receivers were WIDE open on a handful of roll outs.
 

ivotuk

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Excellent post Chris. And right on the money.

This one is going to take me a while to digest, so I'm going to have to copy and paste it to Word. It's hell getting old. =-/
 

ivotuk

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mistaowen":2dd270mn said:
kf3339":2dd270mn said:
If I remember correctly, last year in the playoffs against the Lions Rawls ran for about 160 yards behind what I believe was mostly a power blocking scheme by our O-Line in that game. In the next game against Atlanta we went back to the ZBS and lost heavily.

Yesterday in the second half they went back to that Power blocking scheme after a pathetic first half. Our offense and rushing attack took off and blew open the game. Why in God's name doesn't PC and Cable see that and open their eyes?

It's so obvious that we are a far better offense in that O-Line power blocking scheme than with the now outdated ZBS. Perhaps someone decided to know both of them in the head multiple times to perhaps knock some sense into them. For the love of God I hope so.

Wanted to bring this up as well. It appeared like they switched to a power blocking scheme in the second half and the interior line was getting some awesome push up the middle. Collinsworth mentioned it a few times and highlighted how far down field they were pushing their man. Bizarre why they keep trying to force the ZBS, especially when they go for athleticism over general technique on the line.

It also is crazy how different this offense looks when the running game is effective. Linebackers have to stay honest and PA actually works. Receivers were WIDE open on a handful of roll outs.

And we don't have ZBS personnel now. Ifedi isn't light and quick. Neither is Oday or Britt, or Joekel for that matter. The only athletic lineman I see is Odhiambo, and he seems out of place on that line sometimes.
 

ivotuk

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So I found this information on Alex Gibbs and the ZBS:


At the core of the Broncos' success was the Gibbs Zone Blocking Scheme, which asked its running backs to run a very specific way and utilized undersized but athletic offensive linemen, all working as one.

As Tim Layden wrote in "Blood, Sweat, and Chalk," "In a four-year period starting in 1995 and culminating in back-to-back Super Bowl victories to end the '97 and '98 seasons, Terrell Davis ran for 6,413 yards.

Eight different offensive linemen started at least 14 games for the Broncos; all of them weighed less than 300 pounds. They were quick and athletic, and if their cut blocking rankled opponents who deemed it dangerous or career-threatening, it was also well within the rules."

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/7/25/5928 ... e-blocking


Another article:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/201 ... cos/19975/

Saw some Alex Gibbs videos on youtube also.
 

Hendo66

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Great post. A lot of info.
I've been wishing they would scrap the ZBS for awhile now.
I'm assuming it won't happen until Cable is gone.
I think this team would be better served if they would just line up and play.
 

massari

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chris98251":3rcxyt6a said:
The demise of the ZBS in rule changes
What the original design is about going back to the 1980’s and then the rule changes. The system is used a lot, we are blaming College for the lack of lineman, I think it’s the rule changes that take away the options that NFL coaches have relied on over the years is block types and where they can block, this limits effectiveness in space and support blocking on the rest of the field. It also may show a bit of stubbornness to be attached to a scheme that the rules have nullified a lot of its benefits based on what was allowed prior to rule changes. The Power run scheme which we used a lot in the second half of last season to compliment our type of lineman along with Reese as a Fullback was successful, we went away from that again the start of this season. Seen it again in the second half against the Colts when Lacy had success.

Also Gibbs puts a lot on footwork and smarts, our guys have heavy feet and the mental errors suggest not a high football IQ, then we have size, we're the size of a power blocking scheme, in fact the NFL is going with lighter except Nose Tackle D lineman these days that have quick and agility, hmmm sounds like the model for ZBS except on defense. Also with the three step mandate by RB’s and a lousy or outdated scheme we are taking away instincts of the RB.

Please read the article before commenting if you don't know the scheme, other wise your like a Jiffy Lube technician commenting on how to build a 7 second Funny Car.

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/7/25/5928877/alex-gibbs-seahawks-broncos-texans-nfl-zone-blocking



1986
• Blocking below the waist on punts is prohibited during the entire down.

• The “lure” technique is prohibited. When a tackle shows pass set, a teammate lined up outside him cannot chop a defender who is lined up over the tackle, even if the tackle and defender are not engaged (a “lure”).


1987
• An offensive lineman may not clip a defender who, at the snap, is aligned on the line of scrimmage opposite another offensive lineman who is more than one position away, when the defender is responding to the flow of the ball away from the blocker.

• Example: A tackle cannot clip the nose tackle on a sweep to the opposite side.

1992
• For the first time the Chop Block is illegal on some running players: It is illegal on a running play for an offensive player who is lined up in the backfield at the snap to deliberately block a defensive player in the thigh or lower (chop) if the defensive player is engaged by an offensive player who was on the line of scrimmage at the snap. This action is prohibited whether on or behind the line of scrimmage in an area that extends laterally to the position originally occupied by the tight end on either side.
1996
• On running plays, a chop block is prohibited by an offensive player who is aligned more than one position away from the engaged defender when the block occurs away from the flow of the play.
• A defender cannot be chopped even after he has disengaged from an offensive opponent, if he is still confronting the offensive player.
• Prohibition of the "lure" technique is applicable all along the offensive line, instead of only to a player outside a tackle.
1999
• Blocking from behind, at, or below the knees in the clipping zone is prohibited.
• After a blocking attempt in close line play, a blocker is prohibited from rolling up on the back of a defender's legs (Unnecessary Roughness).
2002
• The Chop Block technique is illegal on all kicking plays.

2005
• An offensive player who is aligned in the tackle box at the snap and moves to a position outside the box is prohibited from initiating contact on the side or below the waist of an opponent if the blocker is moving toward his own end line and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side ("Peel Back Block"). The near shoulder of the blocker must be in front of his opponent's body.
2009
• It is an illegal “blindside” block if the blocker is moving toward his own endline and approaches the opponent from behind or from the side, and the initial force of the contact by the blocker’s helmet, forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of an opponent.

2013
• “Peel back” blocks below the waist are illegal inside the tackle box.
2014
• Clipping and unnecessary roughness penalties are expanded to prohibit blockers from rolling up on the side of a defender’s leg.
2015
• Rules prohibiting illegal “peel back” blocks are extended to cover all offensive players.

• Offensive backs are prohibited from chopping a defensive player engaged above the waist by another offensive player outside the tackle box.

2016
• Rules prohibiting chop blocks are extended to include running plays, making all instances of chop blocks illegal.
2017
• Prohibits crackback blocks by a backfield player in motion, even if he is not more than two yards outside the tackle when the ball is snapped.
Someone send this post to Carroll, Cable and Schneider.
 

hawknation2017

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The awfulness of our offensive line has NOTHING to do with the zone blocking scheme.

The Pittsburgh Steelers, New Orleans Saints, Dallas Cowboys, Green Bay Packers, Atlanta Falcons, etc. have all been kicking ass with the ZBS.

Maybe . . . just maybe . . . it's the fact that the Seahawks have the worst offensive line talent and depth in the NFL.
 

massari

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hawknation2017":32kjhjoz said:
The awfulness of our offensive line has NOTHING to do with the zone blocking scheme.

The Pittsburgh Steelers, New Orleans Saints, Dallas Cowboys, Green Bay Packers, Atlanta Falcons, etc. have all been kicking ass with the ZBS.

Maybe . . . just maybe . . . it's the fact that the Seahawks have the worst offensive line talent and depth in the NFL.
Why does the offense seem to excel when not using ZBS?
 

Jville

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hawknation2017":2rtqf1lk said:
The awfulness of our offensive line has NOTHING to do with the zone blocking scheme.

The Pittsburgh Steelers, New Orleans Saints, Dallas Cowboys, Green Bay Packers, Atlanta Falcons, etc. have all been kicking ass with the ZBS.

Maybe . . . just maybe . . . it's the fact that the Seahawks have the worst offensive line talent and depth in the NFL.

The notion that Seattle has the worst offensive line in the league is a myth. We saw what might be the worst offensive line on Sunday night. They wore horseshoe graphics on their helmets.
 

Jville

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massari":31weg932 said:
Why does the offense seem to excel when not using ZBS?
They use man plays to attack weakness of a specific opponent as a change up delivered with an element of surprise. It's very effective when executed properly and used sparingly. It's effect is similar to that of changing the offensive rhythm by going up tempo or no huddle.
 
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chris98251

chris98251

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hawknation2017":1h8nl88a said:
The awfulness of our offensive line has NOTHING to do with the zone blocking scheme.

The Pittsburgh Steelers, New Orleans Saints, Dallas Cowboys, Green Bay Packers, Atlanta Falcons, etc. have all been kicking ass with the ZBS.

Maybe . . . just maybe . . . it's the fact that the Seahawks have the worst offensive line talent and depth in the NFL.

Drew Brees, Ben Roethlisberger, Dak Prescott, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, now add their receivers and how their defense is playing, what their philosophy is.

They are heavy invested in a passing game with a run game they hope to compliment it, that is not what we do.

Also where are they in the last 5 years as far as statistically in the run game. top 5 ? after all they are doing soooooo well, what about time of possession ? We want to hold the ball and then have a big play and with a lead control the clock.

All those teams above play to score and score some more. In the Air !
 

hawknation2017

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chris98251":2yh55abb said:
Also where are they in the last 5 years as far as statistically in the run game. top 5 ? after all they are doing soooooo well, what about time of possession ? We want to hold the ball and then have a big play and with a lead control the clock.

All those teams above play to score and score some more. In the Air !

Dallas and Atlanta run the ball as well as anyone. Kansas City and Pittsburgh are also good running teams.

Green Bay and New Orleans I will give you; those are two teams who throw the ball a lot more than they run it. But they were also Top 6 in time of possession in 2016.

ZBS is not preventing these teams from running the ball well, pass protecting effectively, and controlling the clock.
 
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chris98251

chris98251

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hawknation2017":komim26u said:
chris98251":komim26u said:
Also where are they in the last 5 years as far as statistically in the run game. top 5 ? after all they are doing soooooo well, what about time of possession ? We want to hold the ball and then have a big play and with a lead control the clock.

All those teams above play to score and score some more. In the Air !

Dallas and Atlanta run the ball as well as anyone. Kansas City and Pittsburgh are also good running teams.

Green Bay and New Orleans I will give you; those are two teams who throw the ball a lot more than they run it. But they were also Top 6 in time of possession in 2016.

ZBS is not preventing these teams from running the ball well, pass protecting effectively, and controlling the clock.

Dallas has a across the board high draft picks at every position on the line, but how is their defense?

Atlanta invested heavily in high draft picks at running back, that defense sure looked good in the Super Bowl last year in the second half, it will get better, they still need to add pieces, they are about the closest to what were talking about, we will see how they do without Shanahan.

Pittsburgh has not run the ball well year to year since Mr. Detroit retired, they have had spurts.

Kansas City, they look like a Power run scheme not a ZBS.
 

hawknation2017

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Nah, Kansas City under Andy Reid is a ZBS team.

Outside zone is a staple of the Chiefs’ run game, which is predicated on creating lateral displacement of the defense. Offensive linemen are tasked with working laterally on combo or solo blocks to either hook/reach and seal inside, or take the DL where they want to go and push them past their assigned gaps. This creates a series of cutback lanes and alleys for the runner to make entry. Decisiveness, vision and burst are required from the runner to make the correct read on either a bounce, bang or bend read.

The first offensive snap of the game for the Chiefs have them in 12 personnel running outside zone to the left. The frontside of the blocking scheme are unable to hook and seal their assignment, so Hunt quickly deciphers his reads and “bends” back to the backside B gap. Notice how the Chiefs OL is able to get the Chargers defensive front moving laterally, creating a huge alley for Hunt on the backside:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BTNFL86/status/912699566931058688[/tweet]
https://www.fanragsports.com/chiefs-run ... hletic-ol/
 
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