Our "Tier 3 QB" is on the move.....

To those Wilson critics ( I recently saw someone called him tier 3), don't look now, but Wilson is on the move. Not down but up! Imagine what would happen if we had respectable pass protection, and actually came out in the first half with just a bit of an aggressive plan.
I am no Wilson homer, but I will defend what I've seen in 40+ years of football with Wilson. He can and I believe will continue to improve his numbers if he is allowed to settle in a make plays. That said, don't expect to see it this week against that D front. Not impossible, just unlikely IMO.

7
Russell Wilson
QB
Seahawks

At some point, it's probably safe to stop pining for some consistent, mystical Seahawks passing game that consistently moves the chains and just enjoy the streaky attack that can include six plays over 20 yards in one game, with a long rushing touchdown from Wilson, to boot

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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ex-week-5-tom-brady-unfair-alex-smith-on-fire

Sadly Russell is underappreciated because he doesn't play like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or a host of other 6'5" QB's.
His game is suited for a 5'11" QB and will always be what it is. Stepping up into a pocket at that height is a challenge because of sight lines. It is what it is.

I'll take what Russell does better than virtually every other QB and enjoy those things about him. Deep throws, throwing on the run, especially across his body. Nobody has his accuracy with those throws. I'll take the occasional air mail ball and stupid sack, to have those other things.

Given he has been under duress much of his QB career, we should all be glad he hasn't been Carr'd for life.

Best Seahawks moments are when he's houdini'ing away from certain doom to hit a 30 yd dime to Baldwin on the run. Even the great Rodgers can't make some of the escapes Russell does.

You can't make Russell into a perfect QB. He'll never stand tall in the pocket like Brady and Rothlisberger. He'll need to back out if it gets to clogged. Just deal with that fact, don't let it frustrate you and enjoy the cool things he does do.

Seymour":r08yomef said:

To those Wilson critics ( I recently saw someone called him tier 3), don't look now, but Wilson is on the move. Not down but up! Imagine what would happen if we had respectable pass protection, and actually came out in the first half with just a bit of an aggressive plan.
I am no Wilson homer, but I will defend what I've seen in 40+ years of football with Wilson. He can and I believe will continue to improve his numbers if he is allowed to settle in a make plays. That said, don't expect to see it this week against that D front. Not impossible, just unlikely IMO.

7
Russell Wilson
QB
Seahawks

At some point, it's probably safe to stop pining for some consistent, mystical Seahawks passing game that consistently moves the chains and just enjoy the streaky attack that can include six plays over 20 yards in one game, with a long rushing touchdown from Wilson, to boot

Click to expand...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ex-week-5-tom-brady-unfair-alex-smith-on-fire

Click to expand...

Nobody has ever called him a "tier 3" Quarterback on this board, what does that even mean?

I'm never going to be content with the "down to the wire" style of play our offense has. It's idiotic, and it has cost us many games. That is on Carroll by the way not Wilson. We have had the top defensive spot in the NFL for many years now, if any other team tried this infuriating offensive strategy they would be sunk. It's the offensive equivalent to the much maligned prevent defense.

Now, what I do fault Wilson for is his lack of consistency. That does have a lot to do with Carroll --- but Wilson himself is also to blame here. One minute he can look like a golden god, then the next he'll miss a gimmie throw to a wide open receiver. Wilson also has a penchant for making too many negative plays. He doesn't know how to just call it a day, and this mentality has cost us games with untimely 10+ yard sacks. Wilson will, and has on many occasions this season flat out ignored his check down options with pressure bearing down on him. It has been flat out embarrassing to watch his lack of pocket presence as well. As I said earlier I watched one play against the Titans where he ran around in a circle, in a clean pocket, missed several wide open receivers, and got sacked because he walked himself into the defensive ends arms.

What I'm asking for from the guy is just a little bit of consistency. I don't want flashy plays, or big yardage. I just want us to keep the defense off of the field for as long as possible. Take the check-down, know when to give up on the play. Russ has got to play smarter football. He doesn't need to be a world beater, he just needs to take what the defense is giving him, and not try to force things with his scrambling that isn't there i.e ignoring the check down, in favor of going for a big play with pass rushers coming for you. He is making plays, but he is also leaving a lot of plays out on the field, especially in the first half of games. He needs to understand that there are more tools to beat pass rush than just his legs, and elusiveness. If he can do this, the sky will be the limit for Russ.

Spin Doctor":cmu5m9mf said:

.....Nobody has ever called him a "tier 3" Quarterback on this board, what does that even mean?

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How much would you like to bet?
Why act like you've read every post on this board over the last year? :roll:

ludakrishna":cmu5m9mf said:

MontanaHawk05":cmu5m9mf said:

It's not going to shut until Russell Wilson can no longer play.

Drew Brees' window has not shut. New Orleans just hasn't been able to get him a defense.

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Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady are elite Tier 1 QBs. Russell is a Tier 3 QB. Russ has not shown that he can carry a team to the SB.

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Wrong, someone DID call him Tier 3. Lame

Mad Dog":1paygscy said:

Sadly Russell is underappreciated because he doesn't play like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or a host of other 6'5" QB's.

His game is suited for a 5'11" QB and will always be what it is. Stepping up into a pocket at that height is a challenge because of sight lines. It is what it is.

Click to expand...

For my money Drew Brees is the best pure pocket passer in the NFL (and it isn't close), so height isn't an issue. We have their actual heights from the combine and Brees is just an inch taller than Wilson.

That inch can't explain the difference between a guy who struggles in the pocket and a guy who for the last seven years has been putting up around 5K passing yards a year at about a 69% completion rate while playing almost entirely from the pocket.

Aaron Rodgers is just a couple of inches taller than WIlson too.

You're right though that Wilson doesn't play like Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers. The difference between Wilson and all those guys -- and why he often doesn't get talked about with them -- is that they're at the top of the top: you feel comfortable having your ability to win on offense flow entirely through them.

I was listening to a recent interview with Scot McCloughlan yesterday, and he said what a lot of professional talent evaluaters have been saying about Wilson: He's a really good QB, but not the type of guy who want having to throw the ball 35+ times a game.

That's a categorical difference between him and the top tier guys, and it's not about height.


Edit: Link to McCloughan here: https://www.ninersnation.com/2017/10/3/ ... ime-stamps

Popeyejones":37v3gows said:

Mad Dog":37v3gows said:

Sadly Russell is underappreciated because he doesn't play like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or a host of other 6'5" QB's.

His game is suited for a 5'11" QB and will always be what it is. Stepping up into a pocket at that height is a challenge because of sight lines. It is what it is.

Click to expand...

For my money Drew Brees is the best pure pocket passer in the NFL (and it isn't close), so height isn't an issue. We have their actual heights from the combine and Brees is just an inch taller than Wilson.

That inch can't explain the difference between a guy who struggles in the pocket and a guy who for the last seven years has been putting up around 5K passing yards a year at about a 69% completion rate while playing almost entirely from the pocket.

Aaron Rodgers is just a couple of inches taller than WIlson too.

You're right though that Wilson doesn't play like Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers. The difference between Wilson and all those guys -- and why he often doesn't get talked about with them -- is that they're at the top of the top: you feel comfortable having your ability to win on offense flow entirely through them.

I was listening to a recent interview with Scot McCloughlan yesterday, and he said what a lot of professional talent evaluaters have been saying about Wilson: He's a really good QB, but not the type of guy who want having to throw the ball 35+ times a game.

That's a categorical difference between him and the top tier guys, and it's not about height.


Edit: Link to McCloughan here: https://www.ninersnation.com/2017/10/3/ ... ime-stamps

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That is actually just another Wilson myth. He is one of the best pocket passers in the NFL. Where he struggles is staying in the pocket. His internal clock is "too short", as it should be with Cable here "protecting him" and since it's saved his life so many times.

118.6 -- Wilson's passer rating on throws from inside the pocket. Not only was that the top mark among this year's group, but no quarterback in the past three seasons has posted a higher number. Wilson completed 72.8 percent of his passes, averaged 8.75 yards per attempt and tossed 31 touchdowns against seven interceptions when he stayed in the pocket. Since Week 11, the numbers are 77.8 percent, 9.90 YPA, 22 touchdowns and one interception. That equates to a passer rating of 145.1. Regardless of what happens in the playoffs, this will be one of the most important things to come out of the 2015 season for the Seahawks. When Wilson has time to sit back in the pocket, he can pick defenses apart. He's shown that ability in the past, but never at such a high level, and it's made the Seahawks extremely tough to defend. If opponents want to try to stay disciplined with their pass rushes and not allow Wilson to scramble, he's perfectly content to hang tight, survey the field and deliver on-target all game long.

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http://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-se...umbers-behind-russell-wilsons-historic-season

Popeyejones":19bgonrs said:

Mad Dog":19bgonrs said:

Sadly Russell is underappreciated because he doesn't play like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or a host of other 6'5" QB's.

His game is suited for a 5'11" QB and will always be what it is. Stepping up into a pocket at that height is a challenge because of sight lines. It is what it is.

Click to expand...

For my money Drew Brees is the best pure pocket passer in the NFL (and it isn't close), so height isn't an issue. We have their actual heights from the combine and Brees is just an inch taller than Wilson.

That inch can't explain the difference between a guy who struggles in the pocket and a guy who for the last seven years has been putting up around 5K passing yards a year at about a 69% completion rate while playing almost entirely from the pocket.

Aaron Rodgers is just a couple of inches taller than WIlson too.

You're right though that Wilson doesn't play like Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers. The difference between Wilson and all those guys -- and why he often doesn't get talked about with them -- is that they're at the top of the top: you feel comfortable having your ability to win on offense flow entirely through them.

I was listening to a recent interview with Scot McCloughlan yesterday, and he said what a lot of professional talent evaluaters have been saying about Wilson: He's a really good QB, but not the type of guy who want having to throw the ball 35+ times a game.

That's a categorical difference between him and the top tier guys, and it's not about height.


Edit: Link to McCloughan here: https://www.ninersnation.com/2017/10/3/ ... ime-stamps

Click to expand...

I'd disagree that Brees is the best pure pocket passer. Brees is a very good QB for his height, but even he has to be bouncing on his toes looking between OL and throwing deeper routes because of his height. He can't stand in the pocket for 4 seconds and hit a short crossing route like taller QB's like Brady can.

But I agree that Brees is shorter than you'd like at QB and plays from the pocket but he has had to develop his game to compensate. Wilson is even shorter and has developed his game to compensate in the setting of a line that frequently gives up middle pressure. I suspect in our offence Brees would be not even close to a 5000 yd passer.

I don't want Russell throwing 35+ times a game. Does that mean he's not a great QB? Only great QB's just sling it around?
I think a great QB does what it takes to win and last I checked no one has more 4th quarter game winning drives since 2012 than Russell Wilson. He puts up with miserable game plans in the first half then gets unleashed in the second half and pretty much wins the game or not on his own.

I think Wilson goes down as the greatest scrambling QB of all time (sorry Fran Tarkenton). If you want him to go down as the greatest pocket passer and using Drew Brees as an example, you are being off base. Not his skill set.

Fans just love to throw stuff out there as if it's gospel.
He's damn good in the pocket. And that's a pocket that is always collapsing :shock:

Popeyejones":1zzc54vz said:

Mad Dog":1zzc54vz said:

Sadly Russell is underappreciated because he doesn't play like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning or a host of other 6'5" QB's.

His game is suited for a 5'11" QB and will always be what it is. Stepping up into a pocket at that height is a challenge because of sight lines. It is what it is.

Click to expand...

For my money Drew Brees is the best pure pocket passer in the NFL (and it isn't close), so height isn't an issue. We have their actual heights from the combine and Brees is just an inch taller than Wilson.

That inch can't explain the difference between a guy who struggles in the pocket and a guy who for the last seven years has been putting up around 5K passing yards a year at about a 69% completion rate while playing almost entirely from the pocket.

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Brees has had very good guards who can consistently create throwing lanes for him.

Aaron Rodgers hasn't, not all the time, but then again, Rodgers has always been a guy who relies on his escapability to make big plays.

MontanaHawk05":3e26q5sx said:

Brees has had very good guards who can consistently create throwing lanes for him.

Aaron Rodgers hasn't, not all the time, but then again, Rodgers has always been a guy who relies on his escapability to make big plays.

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Tbf, Rodgers had Sitton and Lang for a few years, both of whom are elite pass blockers. Had Lang for another year and now he has Taylor and Evans, who are at least average and likely above average pass blockers.

Our guard play has never been great. Now that I think about it, LJ might be the best pass protecting guard Russ has ever had!! Carp is better now, but he wasn't that good when he was here.

Seymour":1eln5l5r said:

That is actually just another Wilson myth. He is one of the best pocket passers in the NFL. Where he struggles is staying in the pocket. His internal clock is "too short", as it should be with Cable here "protecting him" and since it's saved his life so many times.

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It's not a myth, it's just a difference in definition.

The "in the pocket" stats don't mean much to me because anything in the tackle box is counted as "in the pocket."
Another good example of the problem with in-the-pocket stats is Peyton Manning, who later in his career when he lost arm strength most of his "in the pocket" stats were throws from shotgun before a pocket even had time to form.

You don't have to watch the Seahawks much to know that they throw a lot of timing stuff from shotgun and 3 steps drop from shotgun. That counts as "in the pocket" for statistics, but it's from "above the pocket" in the way that people tend to talk about the pocket.

I'm referring to what happens when Wilson (rarely) actually steps up into the pocket lets his tackles push edge defenders out of the play in a cup around him, etc. (more common is he does his ridiculous spin move thing going backwards from already above the pocket, which is why he ends up running into very deep sacks much more than you see any other QB doing.

So when I say Brees is the best in the biz in the pocket, I'm talking about actually being in the cup of the pocket and manipulating rushers in the pocket while keeping his feet square and his eyes downfield. Rpdgers escapes through the pocket to find space closer to the LOS better than him, but in terms of actually hanging in the pocket and making small movements to stay set Brees is the best, IMO.

Wilson IMO, for all the things he's great at, really struggles with this. He tends to bail backwards or horizontally from above the pocket even when he has a clean pocket in front of him, and once he steps into the pocket he really struggles too (rather than manipulating the rush he too often just seems to ping pong around, leaving his setup and often even running directly into sacks).

FWIW I don't think his internal clock is too short. I think the length of it is about right: it's just at about 3 seconds as it should be. The problem is (1) what he does when he reaches his go point, and (2) for a QB of his age and overall talent he still leans very heavily on an internal clock and hasn't really developed a feel for pressure (why you seem him bailing from non-existent pressure more frequently than most other QBs of his ability level).



Edit: also worth saying that IMO it's basically impossible to blame his poor o-line for creating this facet of his game. It's been the one area he has struggled with since he was a rookie. It's why the Seahawks spent a couple years scheming around his problems in this one area, and have had less success in their occasional efforts to not scheme around it in the last two years (which TBH they seem to have kind of given up on).

To be clear, non of this means he's not a very good QB. He is a very good QB. We can talk about flaws in the games of very good QBs too.

Popeyejones":16mibv73 said:

I'm referring to what happens when Wilson (rarely) actually steps up into the pocket lets his tackles push edge defenders out of the play in a cup around him, etc. (more common is he does his ridiculous spin move thing going backwards from already above the pocket, which is why he ends up running into very deep sacks much more than you see any other QB doing.

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Oh good god. How often can Wilson COUNT on both tackles keeping those pocket edges clean to step up in the last 2 years? He can't see his targets and see out of both his ear holes too! That spin move "into traffic" makes more plays than it misses, and it doesn't happen enough to get all crazy about either.

You take the good with the bad. The good outweighs the bad so you live with it. Or bitch about it and pray for a new QB.
Your choice.

Also. I suggest you change "your definition" of pocket passer to match everyone else if want to have any reasonable conversation on the topic. The quote I posted was his rating of 118. The highest of any QB in 3 years at the time. Enough said on that.

Lastly. Yes you can blame poor oline play for those habits. Cable's olines have always been notoriously bad at pass blocking and good at run blocking. Look it up, never better then #22 and that was Oakland. Wilson is always among the leaders in QB pressures. The year we won the SB he had the #32 ranked oline in pass protection and the highest paid line in the NFL. Cable's should give half his check to Wilson every year. He is the only reason Cable still has a job.

Seymour":34jgav0r said:

Popeyejones":34jgav0r said:

I'm referring to what happens when Wilson (rarely) actually steps up into the pocket lets his tackles push edge defenders out of the play in a cup around him, etc. (more common is he does his ridiculous spin move thing going backwards from already above the pocket, which is why he ends up running into very deep sacks much more than you see any other QB doing.

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Oh good god. How often can Wilson COUNT on both tackles keeping those pocket edges clean to step up in the last 2 years? He can't see his targets and see out of both his ear holes too! That spin move "into traffic" makes more plays than it misses, and it doesn't happen enough to get all crazy about either.

You take the good with the bad. The good outweighs the bad so you live with it. Or bitch about it and pray for a new QB.
Your choice.

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Having Wilson is the only reason we've been able to compete with a terrible OL for the last 5 years. We'd have had to invest considerble money in the OL to keep any other QB upright. Brady is about the only other QB that can compete on a high level with no OL support since he can get rid of the ball so quickly.

The fact is, Wilson has his own unique skill set that he uses to great effectiveness. Does it get him into trouble sometime? Yes. Does every QB get into trouble sometime? Yes they do.

Russell only occasionally bails from clean pockets IMO. I think its confirmation bias by some fans that think he never steps up, always spins out. In fact his brilliant run against the Colts was from stepping up in the pocket. He does it. But its not like he has a ton of beautifully clean pockets to step into most of the time.

Wilson can both be a very big part of the Hawks' success and also have flaws in his game that he'd need to refine to be in the conversation with the universally agreed upon elite few QBs.

You guys are writing like those two things have to be mutually exclusive, and they don't even remotely have to be.

Fair enough. But he could have an incredible game, and many seem to only point out the negatives.
Just seems odd that's all.

Popeyejones":2s1exj0s said:

Wilson can both be a very big part of the Hawks' success and also have flaws in his game that he'd need to refine to be in the conversation with the universally agreed upon elite few QBs.

You guys are writing like those two things have to be mutually exclusive, and they don't even remotely have to be.

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They're not exclusive, but they are largely segregated by half.

Popeyejones":w0kma3t9 said:

Wilson can both be a very big part of the Hawks' success and also have flaws in his game that he'd need to refine to be in the conversation with the universally agreed upon elite few QBs.

You guys are writing like those two things have to be mutually exclusive, and they don't even remotely have to be.

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I don't disagree that he has stuff to work on and can improve. Everyone does. I disagree he is "ruined" (defined as not able to return to his 2013-2015 level of play) like 57% of the people that voted here think he will be by years end. I disagree that he isn't still a top tier (top 5-7 or so) franchise QB worth keeping. I assumed from your line of gripes you were in that group.
Here is the poll I'm talking about.

http://www.seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138997

People are gonna' miss him when he's gone. Best QB in franchise history by far. Most, if no ALL QB's have some weaknesses, so what? You could probably find faults in every quarterback, even Lord Brady and walk on water Erin Rodgers. And I suspect that many who think he's "ruined" are the ones who want him to fail because they just don't like him. This team doesn't sniff the Super Bowl in back to back seasons w/out him.

Popeyejones":1oa7f7xl said:

Wilson can both be a very big part of the Hawks' success and also have flaws in his game that he'd need to refine to be in the conversation with the universally agreed upon elite few QBs.

You guys are writing like those two things have to be mutually exclusive, and they don't even remotely have to be.

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And you are writing like being a polished pocket passer like Drew Brees is easy to do and should be the goal. And even still, Drew Brees wins less than Russell and needs more money on his OL than Russell. With Russell we can go cheap on OL and spend on defense and be a more successful ball club.

The question I ask you is, "What if he steps up and no one is open still?" Then the pocket collapses, he can't escape and he takes a sack and everyone yells about him holding the ball too long. Sometimes bailing out and getting on the edge gives him more opportunity to free up a receiver or make a positive gain. It's not always a negative.

To me elite QB's bring their teams back and win when the chips are down. Elite passers put up volume but elite QB's win. I'd rather have an elite QB than an elite passer.