Wilson and the Oline

northseahawk · Nov 7, 2017

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/11/nfl-sea ... wilson/amp

I think this is a pretty good assessment of how Wilson is making the not so good oline seem even worst. Especially this last game. Iv never seen a qb so impatient in the pocket! He was not under more duress than cousins! But the only difference was that cousins stayed, took the hits, but delivered as well.

Like I said to a couple guys here before the game, that it doesn't matter if you bring in 5 all pro lineman because it's not possible to block effectively for a qb that will not stay in a pocket even if there is a nice big one. It's impossible to shift your moment and body to block in a total different direction when the qb is running side to side.

Russel was a smart scrambler and had to twist, turn, and run when he defintely had to. Now it just seems he already has made up his mind to run side ways before the snap. No matter what some people say, this guys is playing a major role in this ineffiecent and total dysfunctional offense!

Bobblehead · Nov 7, 2017

Fans want Russ to do what he does best, get out and scramble, but then when he does and it doesn't work, it's inevitably, he should have stayed in the pocket. Never played QB but I can only imagine, he has a moment to decide weather or not which is best for him, if he deems scrambling is best, he needs to get out before the pocket caves in, right? That may explain why he seems to get out early. I think really, scrambling is his goto mama play and it's what he's comfortable doing. I gotta think also, if he's in the pocket, very tall players are on him and it maybe, just maybe difficult for him to throw over some of those guys.. or even see downfield. It's our lot, and it's what we have to live with. Of course, I"m just speculating and probably all wrong about it.

nanomoz · Nov 7, 2017

In before Anthony.

adeltaY · Nov 7, 2017

The two things that are keeping Wilson from being among the top 3 in the league consistently are his mercurial pocket presence and endzone performance. At this point, this has to come down to coaching. We get the line sucks and standing in there is gonna get him killed, but you're right in that Cousins stood, delivered, got destroyed, but won them the game. The crazy thing is, Wilson's done this many times! I specifically remember Doug's 80 yard TD vs. the Steelers a couple years ago, Russ knew he had to stand in there and get wrecked by Bud Dupree but he did and it worked out great.

Maybe we need some new blood. Is Carl Smith that great of a QB coach? Dude is super old and I'm not sure how much more he has to offer. Wilson has flawed tendencies, but I'm sure he's a coachable guy. I'm also sure many of us are left yelling for him to stop flinching in the pocket and "Step up dammit!"

Spin Doctor · Nov 7, 2017

Bobblehead":1bdpahos said:
Fans want Russ to do what he does best, get out and scramble, but then when he does and it doesn't work, it's inevitably, he should have stayed in the pocket. Never played QB but I can only imagine, he has a moment to decide weather or not which is best for him, if he deems scrambling is best, he needs to get out before the pocket caves in, right? That may explain why he seems to get out early. I think really, scrambling is his goto mama play and it's what he's comfortable doing. I gotta think also, if he's in the pocket, very tall players are on him and it maybe, just maybe difficult for him to throw over some of those guys.. or even see downfield. It's our lot, and it's what we have to live with. Of course, I"m just speculating and probably all wrong about it.

What you are talking about is what people talk about when they say pocket presence. Most NFL caliber QB's have to develop a sixth sense. They constantly have a clock ticking in their head, and a feel for when things are going to go awry. Some Quarterbacks are better than others at this skill. For example, Brady, and Manning are hardly ever sacked, because they know when to hold em' and when to fold em. They know when players are about to close in on them. If they didn't have this skill they would be mediocre due to their lack of mobility. Pocket presence also takes into account how players manipulate the pocket. Brees would be a good example of pocket manipulation. He moves around in the pocket but they are small movements. He baits the defense, and sets up his blockers with his movements from within the pocket. By doing this it makes his line look better than they truly are, and it opens up throwing lanes.

You talk about some of his inaccurate passes, they happen due to his lack of pocket presence. Even with no pressure he looks skittish in the pocket, and has happy feet. The happy feet aspect is important because it causes Wilson to throw with poor mechanics. When he is throwing on the run, or throwing while his feet are hopping around it causes him to throw from his back foot, and I notice when he gets in these modes he has no follow through. He also isn't able to drive the ball with his body weight. That is why in this game you had people questioning Wilson's arm strength. He clearly has a good arm, it is just that he is throwing from a less than ideal position most of the time. Some of that is clearly on the line, but a good portion of it is also due to Wilson's skittish nature in the pocket.

Wilson have never had to develop these skills, or rather I get the impression from our play calling that they have never been emphasized by our coaching staff. We call a bunch of deep routes, and expect Wilson to buy time for us until one of our guys come open. Unfortunately, until the Seahawks stop approaching the game with this mentality, this aspect of his game will not change, and conversely our line will also look much worse than it really is.

When I saw Carroll complaining about Wilson not sticking to the pocket I had to laugh. You complain about this now? You've been running an offense that encourages this type of play, with no real checkdown options, and you have the gull to complain about the way Wilson is approaching the game? Your backwards offensive philosophy, and your coordinator is why we haven't seen any improvement in this area for Wilson. Maybe if you stopped viewing the offense as a supplementary piece for your vaunted defense we wouldn't be where we are now.

Josea16 · Nov 7, 2017

nanomoz":2dr2tnwj said:
In before Anthony.

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL. Thank God PC/JS realize it and are actually trying to improve it. Maybe not successfully but what can you do beyond try?

Spin Doctor · Nov 7, 2017

Josea16":1wmmvwd7 said:
nanomoz":1wmmvwd7 said:

In before Anthony.

Click to expand...

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL. Thank God PC/JS realize it and are actually trying to improve it. Maybe not successfully but what can you do beyond try?

Here is the thing, the O-line will always look bad until they decide to fix their backwards offensive philosophy. It doesn't matter if you put the Cowboys line in front of Wilson. That offense we trotted out against the Skins would make any line look bad. No outlet against full on blitz's? This stuff is elementary.

Spin Doctor · Nov 7, 2017

Josea16":1g31ohxu said:
Spin Doctor":1g31ohxu said:

Bobblehead":1g31ohxu said:

Fans want Russ to do what he does best, get out and scramble, but then when he does and it doesn't work, it's inevitably, he should have stayed in the pocket. Never played QB but I can only imagine, he has a moment to decide weather or not which is best for him, if he deems scrambling is best, he needs to get out before the pocket caves in, right? That may explain why he seems to get out early. I think really, scrambling is his goto mama play and it's what he's comfortable doing. I gotta think also, if he's in the pocket, very tall players are on him and it maybe, just maybe difficult for him to throw over some of those guys.. or even see downfield. It's our lot, and it's what we have to live with. Of course, I"m just speculating and probably all wrong about it.

Click to expand...

What you are talking about is what people talk about when they say pocket presence. Most NFL caliber QB's have to develop a sixth sense. They constantly have a clock ticking in their head, and a feel for when things are going to go awry. Some Quarterbacks are better than others at this skill. For example, Brady, and Manning are hardly ever sacked, because they know when to hold em' and when to fold em. They know when players are about to close in on them. If they didn't have this skill they would be mediocre due to their lack of mobility. Pocket presence also takes into account how players manipulate the pocket. Brees would be a good example of pocket manipulation. He moves around in the pocket but they are small movements. He baits the defense, and sets up his blockers with his movements from within the pocket. By doing this it makes his line look better than they truly are, and it opens up throwing lanes.

You talk about some of his inaccurate passes, they happen due to his lack of pocket presence. Even with no pressure he looks skittish in the pocket, and has happy feet. The happy feet aspect is important because it causes Wilson to throw with poor mechanics. When he is throwing on the run, or throwing while his feet are hopping around it causes him to throw from his back foot, and I notice when he gets in these modes he has no follow through. He also isn't able to drive the ball with his body weight. That is why in this game you had people questioning Wilson's arm strength. He clearly has a good arm, it is just that he is throwing from a less than ideal position most of the time. Some of that is clearly on the line, but a good portion of it is also due to Wilson's skittish nature in the pocket.

Wilson have never had to develop these skills, or rather I get the impression from our play calling that they have never been emphasized by our coaching staff. We call a bunch of deep routes, and expect Wilson to buy time for us until one of our guys come open. Unfortunately, until the Seahawks stop approaching the game with this mentality, this aspect of his game will not change, and conversely our line will also look much worse than it really is.

When I saw Carroll complaining about Wilson not sticking to the pocket I had to laugh. You complain about this now? You've been running an offense that encourages this type of play, with no real checkdown options, and you have the gull to complain about the way Wilson is approaching the game? Your backwards offensive philosophy, and your coordinator is why we haven't seen any improvement in this area for Wilson. Maybe if you stopped viewing the offense as a supplementary piece for your vaunted defense we wouldn't be where we are now.

Click to expand...

So now it's we? You are aren't a fan so please stop already.

Who are you to question my fandom? You're not even responding to any of my points, instead you pull out the "fan card". That is the worst cop out answer you can give to somebody, and quite frankly it is sad, and pathetic. Especially when you consider that I've been on this forum EIGHT more years than you have.

Take this garbage of a post elsewhere. None of us on this forum have any need for it.

Josea16 · Nov 7, 2017

Spin Doctor":3szpgvnz said:
Josea16":3szpgvnz said:

nanomoz":3szpgvnz said:

In before Anthony.

Click to expand...

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL. Thank God PC/JS realize it and are actually trying to improve it. Maybe not successfully but what can you do beyond try?

Click to expand...

Here is the thing, the O-line will always look bad until they decide to fix their backwards offensive philosophy. It doesn't matter if you put the Cowboys line in front of Wilson. That offense we trotted out against the Skins would make any line look bad. No outlet against full on blitz's? This stuff is elementary.

Dude, Rusell is like Tarkenton and Young not Montana or Smith. He has balls and loves to chuck and duck like Pete. Russ is a deep throw guy right from Wisconsin not some WCO guy, so shut up and roll with it already.

Josea16 · Nov 7, 2017

Spin Doctor":2s4tcqj2 said:
Josea16":2s4tcqj2 said:

Spin Doctor":2s4tcqj2 said:

Bobblehead":2s4tcqj2 said:

Fans want Russ to do what he does best, get out and scramble, but then when he does and it doesn't work, it's inevitably, he should have stayed in the pocket. Never played QB but I can only imagine, he has a moment to decide weather or not which is best for him, if he deems scrambling is best, he needs to get out before the pocket caves in, right? That may explain why he seems to get out early. I think really, scrambling is his goto mama play and it's what he's comfortable doing. I gotta think also, if he's in the pocket, very tall players are on him and it maybe, just maybe difficult for him to throw over some of those guys.. or even see downfield. It's our lot, and it's what we have to live with. Of course, I"m just speculating and probably all wrong about it.

Click to expand...

What you are talking about is what people talk about when they say pocket presence. Most NFL caliber QB's have to develop a sixth sense. They constantly have a clock ticking in their head, and a feel for when things are going to go awry. Some Quarterbacks are better than others at this skill. For example, Brady, and Manning are hardly ever sacked, because they know when to hold em' and when to fold em. They know when players are about to close in on them. If they didn't have this skill they would be mediocre due to their lack of mobility. Pocket presence also takes into account how players manipulate the pocket. Brees would be a good example of pocket manipulation. He moves around in the pocket but they are small movements. He baits the defense, and sets up his blockers with his movements from within the pocket. By doing this it makes his line look better than they truly are, and it opens up throwing lanes.

You talk about some of his inaccurate passes, they happen due to his lack of pocket presence. Even with no pressure he looks skittish in the pocket, and has happy feet. The happy feet aspect is important because it causes Wilson to throw with poor mechanics. When he is throwing on the run, or throwing while his feet are hopping around it causes him to throw from his back foot, and I notice when he gets in these modes he has no follow through. He also isn't able to drive the ball with his body weight. That is why in this game you had people questioning Wilson's arm strength. He clearly has a good arm, it is just that he is throwing from a less than ideal position most of the time. Some of that is clearly on the line, but a good portion of it is also due to Wilson's skittish nature in the pocket.

Wilson have never had to develop these skills, or rather I get the impression from our play calling that they have never been emphasized by our coaching staff. We call a bunch of deep routes, and expect Wilson to buy time for us until one of our guys come open. Unfortunately, until the Seahawks stop approaching the game with this mentality, this aspect of his game will not change, and conversely our line will also look much worse than it really is.

When I saw Carroll complaining about Wilson not sticking to the pocket I had to laugh. You complain about this now? You've been running an offense that encourages this type of play, with no real checkdown options, and you have the gull to complain about the way Wilson is approaching the game? Your backwards offensive philosophy, and your coordinator is why we haven't seen any improvement in this area for Wilson. Maybe if you stopped viewing the offense as a supplementary piece for your vaunted defense we wouldn't be where we are now.

Click to expand...

So now it's we? You are aren't a fan so please stop already.

Click to expand...

Who are you to question my fandom? You're not even responding to any of my points, instead you pull out the "fan card". That is the worst cop out answer you can give to somebody, and quite frankly it is sad, and pathetic. Especially when you consider that I've been on this forum EIGHT more years than you have.

Take this garbage of a post elsewhere. None of us on this forum have any need for it.

I will question your ass every seven days of the week sirrah. What you got? You talk a lot about nothing and are a known 49er fan so hit me already.

Scorpion05 · Nov 7, 2017

It's amazing what the power of media can do. I saw this article earlier and knew some fans would take it at face value.

In my opinion, the only one where Wilson was wrong was when he rolled to the right too soon and abandoned the pocket, missing a potential shot down field. In EVERY other video this article shows, the pocket is collapsing around him, or there's pressure up the middle

But in this case, Wilson critics and fans will see what they want to see. Objectively, I don't see how this article proves a point. It might as well be written by Pete Prisco

Spin Doctor · Nov 7, 2017

Josea16":2d058mtp said:
Spin Doctor":2d058mtp said:

Josea16":2d058mtp said:

nanomoz":2d058mtp said:

In before Anthony.

Click to expand...

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL. Thank God PC/JS realize it and are actually trying to improve it. Maybe not successfully but what can you do beyond try?

Click to expand...

Here is the thing, the O-line will always look bad until they decide to fix their backwards offensive philosophy. It doesn't matter if you put the Cowboys line in front of Wilson. That offense we trotted out against the Skins would make any line look bad. No outlet against full on blitz's? This stuff is elementary.

Click to expand...

Dude, Rusell is like Tarkenton and Young not Montana or Smith. He has balls and loves to chuck and duck like Pete. Russ is a deep throw guy right from Wisconsin not some WCO guy, so shut up and roll with it already.

"He has balls" is all you have to say, huh? Consider me enlightened. I never considered this possibility! Such insightful commentary from a true Seahawks fan! The errors of my ways have been rectified, I am not worthy of your grace oh lord of all Seahawk fans. I have admitted my most grievous sins your lordship. Will you let me into the most holy pantheon of Seahawk fanship, o' lord of Seahawk fandom?

adeltaY · Nov 8, 2017

Lol what are you guys even arguing about?

Josea16 · Nov 8, 2017

adeltaY":857g9p33 said:
Lol what are you guys even arguing about?

I'm not arguing, I just know SP is a 49er fan. He said so 2-3 years ago. Just having fun with the trolls and possibly a bit of cleaning if I'm lucky.

chris98251 · Nov 8, 2017

Josea16":3s10tz0i said:
Spin Doctor":3s10tz0i said:

Josea16":3s10tz0i said:

nanomoz":3s10tz0i said:

In before Anthony.

Click to expand...

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL. Thank God PC/JS realize it and are actually trying to improve it. Maybe not successfully but what can you do beyond try?

Click to expand...

Here is the thing, the O-line will always look bad until they decide to fix their backwards offensive philosophy. It doesn't matter if you put the Cowboys line in front of Wilson. That offense we trotted out against the Skins would make any line look bad. No outlet against full on blitz's? This stuff is elementary.

Click to expand...

Dude, Rusell is like Tarkenton and Young not Montana or Smith. He has balls and loves to chuck and duck like Pete. Russ is a deep throw guy right from Wisconsin not some WCO guy, so shut up and roll with it already.

Tarkington and Young had elite receivers and RB's and FB's that caught the ball and very good TE's, they mixed up routes and used screens clearing routes to hit a guy coming out of the backfield or had a WR clear a side and let the TE chip and release lots of things, once those established themselves the game was wide open, these guys also had a running game. The OC also had hot read guys for those QB's.

Now which one's are we missing on a regular basis, not the exception.

Josea16 · Nov 8, 2017

chris98251":2zgk9f9g said:
Josea16":2zgk9f9g said:

Spin Doctor":2zgk9f9g said:

Josea16":2zgk9f9g said:

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL. Thank God PC/JS realize it and are actually trying to improve it. Maybe not successfully but what can you do beyond try?

Click to expand...

Here is the thing, the O-line will always look bad until they decide to fix their backwards offensive philosophy. It doesn't matter if you put the Cowboys line in front of Wilson. That offense we trotted out against the Skins would make any line look bad. No outlet against full on blitz's? This stuff is elementary.

Click to expand...

Dude, Rusell is like Tarkenton and Youngyu not Montana or Smith. He has balls and loves to chuck and duck like Pete. Russ is a deep throw guy right from Wisconsin not some WCO guy, so shut up and roll with it already.

Click to expand...

Tarkington and Young had elite receivers and RB's and FB's that caught the ball and very good TE's, they mixed up routes and used screens clearing routes to hit a guy coming out of the backfield or had a WR clear a side and let the TE chip and release lots of things, once those established themselves the game was wide open, these guys also had a running game. The OC also had hot read guys for those QB's.

Now which one's are we missing on a regular basis, not the exception.

Chris, I would say running backs, hit me back if I'm wrong. I can take it.

Spin Doctor · Nov 8, 2017

Josea16":8wrnj4qz said:
adeltaY":8wrnj4qz said:

Lol what are you guys even arguing about?

Click to expand...

I'm not arguing, I just know SP is a 49er fan. He said so 2-3 years ago. Just having fun with the trolls and possibly a bit of cleaning if I'm lucky.

I'm not a 49er fan, nor have I ever said I was. You're just making up stuff at this point. I find it ironic that you're "having fun with trolls" when you're the one doing the trolling.

Josea16 · Nov 8, 2017

Spin Doctor":3d1c5696 said:
Josea16":3d1c5696 said:

adeltaY":3d1c5696 said:

Lol what are you guys even arguing about?

Click to expand...

I'm not arguing, I just know SP is a 49er fan. He said so 2-3 years ago. Just having fun with the trolls and possibly a bit of cleaning if I'm lucky.

Click to expand...

I'm not a 49er fan, nor have I ever said I was. You're just making up stuff at this point. I find it ironic that you're "having fun with trolls" when you're the one doing the trolling.

You are and you know it. Shit, I am the troll? Seriously? This is just getting more fun sirrah.

Spin Doctor · Nov 8, 2017

chris98251":30wh0anm said:
Josea16":30wh0anm said:

Spin Doctor":30wh0anm said:

Josea16":30wh0anm said:

Damn, that's funny. BH isn't totally off, the offense is though. It really is all about the OL. Thank God PC/JS realize it and are actually trying to improve it. Maybe not successfully but what can you do beyond try?

Click to expand...

Here is the thing, the O-line will always look bad until they decide to fix their backwards offensive philosophy. It doesn't matter if you put the Cowboys line in front of Wilson. That offense we trotted out against the Skins would make any line look bad. No outlet against full on blitz's? This stuff is elementary.

Click to expand...

Dude, Rusell is like Tarkenton and Young not Montana or Smith. He has balls and loves to chuck and duck like Pete. Russ is a deep throw guy right from Wisconsin not some WCO guy, so shut up and roll with it already.

Click to expand...

Tarkington and Young had elite receivers and RB's and FB's that caught the ball and very good TE's, they mixed up routes and used screens clearing routes to hit a guy coming out of the backfield or had a WR clear a side and let the TE chip and release lots of things, once those established themselves the game was wide open, these guys also had a running game. The OC also had hot read guys for those QB's.

Now which one's are we missing on a regular basis, not the exception.

Finally, a reasonable post! Young played in the WCO as well. The same system that Montana played in. They took a methodical, controlled approach to the passing game. Young played more like a Rodgers than Russell Wilson. Fran Tarkenton on the other hand had a style that was similar to Wilson. He also played in a very different era of football. Can't really compare Tarkenton's offense to the one Pete is trying to run in the modern day NFL due to the various rule changes, and evolution's that have taken place since he played in the NFL. The offense Young played in, however is literally the template for modern day NFL offenses.

The assertion I was making is that our offense is the reason Wilson has not developed pocket management skills. Very little in the way of, as you said check downs, hot routes. Sometimes we have 'em but most of the time I feel like we run something similar to what we did against the Skins. No offensive line stands a chance against long developing plays that require the QB hold onto the ball for extended duration of time on a regular basis, without having some sort of outlet. Especially when said team keeps consistently sending five our more men.

NINEster · Nov 8, 2017

The OP's criticism has been shared by a few non Seahawk fans looking to give objective criticism on Wilson's play. Andy Benoit noticed as such in covering last year's Jets game, so it's not just "hater fans" from the NFC West.

He is almost essentially the opposite of every QB in the game today with respect to how he plays under pressure, in particular edge pressure. Wilson's ability to adjust to that is essentially like a QB's version of trap blocking for a running back. He is able to exploit this with far more consistency than a good OC can with over-pursuing defensive linemen in the run game.

It's not as bad now as it used to be, when getting instantaneous edge pressure often would get dodged and Wilson would make a huge throw 85% of the time. I recall a particular throw in Arizona in 2013 where he dodged a guy coming off the right for a TD. Not sure Kap or Rodgers back then could have done it either.

Even up the gut pressure which is supposed to be guaranteed sack/throwaway/batted pass/interception, usually isn't as bad as it normally should be. I recall that one play he made against the Lions on MNF with a free DT in his face and he escaped it to make a throw. It's pretty impressive.

Now having the Cowboys OL would make things better for Wilson, but not as much as it should.

He might be fighting old habits or he might not be comfortable with anticipation throwing on longer intermediate routes.

I don't see Wilson as a top anticipation passer in the NFL, not yet at least.

Wilson is a very unique QB to evaluate.

I look forward to the Jaguar game very much to see how that game transpires.

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