Benoit on the Double Edged Sword that is Russell Wilson

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/12/13/russe ... ell-bevell

Interesting stuff about Bev and the offensive design.

Then he says he'd take Stafford over Russ "no question."

Trade him for Kap and a bag of chips. :sarcasm_off:

Lol. Adorable I suppose. The ol' "I'll take the Quarterback that looks and acts like a Quarterback, fitting my already strong confirmation bias." I laughed out loud when I saw the comparison to Kaepernick. Who, despite not being a "bad" Qb only has mobility in common with him. Also, Russ wasn't a top 10 QB before this year? Lol. Again, cute

The O-line creates passing lanes for Russ. The article conveniently, for most of it anyway makes it seem as if Russell just runs around for the sake of doing it. Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

Yes he has a lot of magic going for him, but I simply don't see what makes him THAT much different from say, a Carson Wentz. I guess because Wentz has that QB look to him, whatever that means. But Wentz does a lot of pass-read option plays, plays within the design of the offense, and still struggles to complete passes at times because his throws are too high. If I'm not mistaken his completion percentage is close to 60%. With better protection

We've seen what Stafford can do. He can't hold Wilson's jock strap because he doesn't have the decision making and smarts that Wilson does. The idea that Wilson wins only because he runs around like a chicken, and not because he makes smart decisions, accurate throws, and good defensive reads is purely rooted in pre-conceived biases. And nothing more.

I don't think this fellow understand Seahawk football with Russell Wilson and our perennially porous Oline. I put as much if not more of the Improv quality on Oline and play design than on Russell. Sure, Russell sometimes bails too soon, and I think that's due to being gunshy as anything else. But the Oline crumbles way too often (yes it's been better lately and at certain points in the last 5 years it's been decent, but generally speaking it's not trustworthy) and play design often doesn't give Russell an outlet pass. That's my biggest complaint about Bevell. The things that make an offense go are a good QB, stout line and well designed plays. I can't put a number on it but I'd say we hit that about 60% of the time. The other 40% is where having someone like Russell keeps you in games.

This paragraph undercuts his premise of preferring Stafford:
"For me, it’s Stafford. No question. But here’s the tricky part: If I’m running a defense and I get to choose between facing Stafford or facing Wilson, I’d choose to face Stafford. And so he’s the guy I want to play with, but also against. Or, more apt for this conversation, Wilson is the guy I don’t want to play with or against."

If you don't want to play against him he's the guy you fear you can't stop. I want the guy at QB the other team fears. Same way they used to fear Marshawn.

Scorpion05":43ue2yy1 said:

Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

Click to expand...

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

adeltaY":1d8ng2sl said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/12/13/russell-wilson-seattle-seahawks-mvp-darrell-bevell

Interesting stuff about Bev and the offensive design.

Then he says he'd take Stafford over Russ "no question."

Click to expand...

I believe he was speaking from a play-calling perspective, because of Wilson's unpredictability. He also says there is no question he is a legit MVP candidate.

aawolf":r24bzhd1 said:

adeltaY":r24bzhd1 said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/12/13/russell-wilson-seattle-seahawks-mvp-darrell-bevell

Interesting stuff about Bev and the offensive design.

Then he says he'd take Stafford over Russ "no question."

Click to expand...

I believe he was speaking from a play-calling perspective, because of Wilson's unpredictability. He also says there is no question he is a legit MVP candidate.

Click to expand...

I also don't buy that Wilson makes Bevell's job harder. It's the other way around if you ask me.

StoneCold":2cl43zel said:

aawolf":2cl43zel said:

adeltaY":2cl43zel said:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/12/13/russell-wilson-seattle-seahawks-mvp-darrell-bevell

Interesting stuff about Bev and the offensive design.

Then he says he'd take Stafford over Russ "no question."

Click to expand...

I believe he was speaking from a play-calling perspective, because of Wilson's unpredictability. He also says there is no question he is a legit MVP candidate.

Click to expand...

I also don't buy that Wilson makes Bevell's job harder. It's the other way around if you ask me.

Click to expand...

Yeah, when we used a more conventional offensive strategy in 2015, Russ was tearing it up. It seems most of the time we send all of our guys deep and pray that Russ can buy enough time for one of them to get open. Last game being a good example of this. I also think this is one of the reasons why Russ looks awful in the first half at times. No chance to get into a rhythm.

MontanaHawk05":296sg5ex said:

Scorpion05":296sg5ex said:

Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

Click to expand...

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

Click to expand...

I would tend to go about 80/20, 70/30 if I'm being generous. Wilson does have his moments of bailing to soon, but otherwise I think it's overblown

Opposing defenses purposely either:

a) Try to push the middle of the pocket to make Wilson feel "crowded" and need to escape
b) Try to maintain the edge, which also simultaneously crowds the passing lanes and forces Wilson to escape and see the field better

But, for the most part when the O-line holds, and creates the lanes, Russell fires it in there and follows the offensive game plan. I just think this idea that our offense is just Russell playing sandlot football 50% or more of the time is a gross exaggeration.

Also, bonus point, a major part of our offense are deep 7-8 step drops. Russ drops back deeper than most Qbs in the league, except for maybe Rodgers. And this also helps him dictates where to throw. But that is within the offense as well. Add bootlegs to that too

Scorpion05":k01b5f9w said:

MontanaHawk05":k01b5f9w said:

Scorpion05":k01b5f9w said:

Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

Click to expand...

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

Click to expand...

I would tend to go about 80/20, 70/30 if I'm being generous. Wilson does have his moments of bailing to soon, but otherwise I think it's overblown

Opposing defenses purposely either:

a) Try to push the middle of the pocket to make Wilson feel "crowded" and need to escape
b) Try to maintain the edge, which also simultaneously crowds the passing lanes and forces Wilson to escape and see the field better

But, for the most part when the O-line holds, and creates the lanes, Russell fires it in there and follows the offensive game plan. I just think this idea that our offense is just Russell playing sandlot football 50% or more of the time is a gross exaggeration.

Also, bonus point, a major part of our offense are deep 7-8 step drops. Russ drops back deeper than most Qbs in the league, except for maybe Rodgers. And this also helps him dictates where to throw. But that is within the offense as well. Add bootlegs to that too

Click to expand...

Against the Eagles, the majority of our offense was 3-step drops. If you follow Ben Baldwin on Twitter, you'll see that. And it worked great for him.

MontanaHawk05":41jl6lw7 said:

Scorpion05":41jl6lw7 said:

Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

Click to expand...

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

Click to expand...

I think that the Oline Russell needs is just one which doesn't let guys get to him in a second and doesn't collapse on all sides. Most of the time Wilson is able to get out of it if just some part collapses and he does have enough time to get away. Imo having a good pass blocking line would be a complete waste on Russell as long as he's able to run around the way he still does.
Good run blocking would be nice though.

rossob":cwuvyukd said:

MontanaHawk05":cwuvyukd said:

Scorpion05":cwuvyukd said:

Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

Click to expand...

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

Click to expand...

I think that the Oline Russell needs is just one which doesn't let guys get to him in a second and doesn't collapse on all sides. Most of the time Wilson is able to get out of it if just some part collapses and he does have enough time to get away. Imo having a good pass blocking line would be a complete waste on Russell as long as he's able to run around the way he still does.
Good run blocking would be nice though.

Click to expand...

Very few route trees require more than 3 seconds to run. The Packers' WR's train to begin their scramble drill 2.8 seconds after the snap. That means that an offensive line's job is done after about 3 seconds, after which the fault is no longer on them.

If you watch Seattle's pass protection over the years armed with that piece of knowledge, you'd be surprised how often Seattle's line actually gets the job done. No, they can't provide Wilson with 7 seconds like Romo's line did. But if the OC, WRs, and QB were doing their job, they wouldn't have to.

The plays where Seattle's line gets immediately punctured are much lesser in quantity. They happen twice or thrice a game. I think the games where they happened the most were against the Calais Campbell Cardinals, and admittedly, those games were nightmares of instant slicing penetration.

MontanaHawk05":32o8vlj3 said:

rossob":32o8vlj3 said:

MontanaHawk05":32o8vlj3 said:

Scorpion05":32o8vlj3 said:

Not to say he never does, but he mostly does it to escape pressure. Otherwise, he does try to remain within the confines of the offense

Click to expand...

I would argue it's closer to 50/50. I notice a LOT of plays where Wilson takes off for absolutely no reason.

That's why Duane Brown's epic few-pressures-allowed performance for us thus far hasn't suddenly improved the offense like people were expecting. Call it height, call it receivers not getting loose, call it he just likes being outside the pocket, but the OL was never the primary driver of our problems.

That said, Stafford will never sniff a Super Bowl.

Click to expand...

I think that the Oline Russell needs is just one which doesn't let guys get to him in a second and doesn't collapse on all sides. Most of the time Wilson is able to get out of it if just some part collapses and he does have enough time to get away. Imo having a good pass blocking line would be a complete waste on Russell as long as he's able to run around the way he still does.
Good run blocking would be nice though.

Click to expand...

Very few route trees require more than 3 seconds to run. The Packers' WR's train to begin their scramble drill 2.8 seconds after the snap. That means that an offensive line's job is done after about 3 seconds, after which the fault is no longer on them.

If you watch Seattle's pass protection over the years armed with that piece of knowledge, you'd be surprised how often Seattle's line actually gets the job done. No, they can't provide Wilson with 7 seconds like Romo's line did. But if the OC, WRs, and QB were doing their job, they wouldn't have to.

The plays where Seattle's line gets immediately punctured are much lesser in quantity. They happen twice or thrice a game. I think the games where they happened the most were against the Calais Campbell Cardinals, and admittedly, those games were nightmares of instant slicing penetration.

Click to expand...

so a few things, #1 PC was good with getting Wilson because of those backyard plays. They have it as part of their game plan and have since day 1. All that stuff about the packers is not all true. As when AR does move around the ball gets held longer than 3 seconds, The difference is he does not have to do it as often because of the play call and design. For example it is very rare that all his Wr do go routes. UNlike us were it happens a lot. As to the article well if he was not such a Stafford fan maybe I would actually give it some credit. But combining his Stafford love affair with the fact he obviously really does not understand the way things work here this article is inaccurate and clear click bait. Rw has proven he can perform at a high level from within the pocket and out, so the whole premise of the article is just wrong

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Seymour":1cuyzyhs said:

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Click to expand...

Very good point.

I honesty can't think of a single QB that could perform as good, or better, than Wilson behind the current OL (prior to them getting it together the last few weeks).

original poster":1zajgi69 said:

Seymour":1zajgi69 said:

He sure as hell would not take Stafford if he saw him behind this oline the last 2-3 years.

That budget oline helps pay for our top 5 D (when they played to full potential), so "his Stafford" has to play against our D to make that a reasonable comparison.

Click to expand...

Very good point.

I honesty can't think of a single QB that could perform as good, or better, than Wilson behind the current OL (prior to them getting it together the last few weeks).

Click to expand...

brady, manning or rodgers would do just fine. They actually use quick throws to mitigate the pass rush and make their o-line look better.

A double edged sword is a perfect description of what RW is right now. I think Kurt Warner once said that he hopes Wilson learns to not make it so hard on himself.

My only question is, will Wilson be-able to correct this problem? or do we need a guru offensive coordinator that can help mitigate this. I personally and I think alot of people want to see a change at coordinator. Maybe Bevel hasn't actually been that bad (personally i think he sucks) but its time for some new blood.

Wtf? Duane Brown absolutely HAS improved the offense! He free’d up Jimmy to run routes and catch passes sometimes! I can’t imagine how good our offense could be if our RT could play the game half as well as Brown.
If you believe this article though then the Hawks should trade Russell right now for a kings ransom of draft picks that our office can use to find middle round gems and rebuild using their original plan.

It's hilarious that after all these years, these media idiots are still refusing to see Russ for what he is, one of the best QB's in football. They were wrong about him, and are not man or woman enough to admit it. And nobody seems to complain about Brees' height etc. Stafford is a good Quarterback, no doubt. But has never won crap.

StoneCold":1ywzucgk said:

I also don't buy that Wilson makes Bevell's job harder. It's the other way around if you ask me.

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I think what Benoit gets right is that on any given play it can be one or the other.

Long story short, I basically agree with Benoit that Wilson is both an MVP candidate, and a guy who, on a play-by-play basis, many OCs wouldn't prefer over Stafford. (see below for why I think he's picking Stafford)

The great Scot Mccloughan said as much about a month ago, saying Wilson is an incredibly special QB, but not a guy you want dropping back to pass 30 times a game.

To be totally honest, Wilson is the most high-variance QB I've ever seen in the NFL, and that's because of his weird mix of amazing talent and his style of play. It's why he goes through stretches (be it halves, or across strings of games) where he looks like the best QB in the history of the NFL (which is also reflected in stats), and stretches where he looks like a bottom quarter starting QB (which is also reflected in stats).

Basically, on any given play Wilson can bail out everyone around him and spin straw into gold, or make life hell for everyone around him and spin gold into straw. Because he's so talented you get more of the former than the latter (which is what makes him a legitimate MVP candidate), but when you watch the All-22 (which I do for probably only 3 or 4 Hawks games a year) he can also be really maddening. He's legitimately harder to pass block for than any QB at the NFL level I've ever seen.

Long story short, Benoit is just saying what a ton of people have been saying for years. Dude's a legit MVP candidate, but if you've ever been an OC or O-line coach, he's also maddening.



ON STAFFORD: I think Benoit is picking Stafford because it's a little trollish to do so, but also sneakily kinda right too. Stafford has been much better than his reputation as a slightly above average QB for a couple years now, but unless you're a Lions fan there's no reason you would have noticed. Stafford has also kept the Lions offense functional and on schedule over the years despite playing with the worst run game in the NFL year in and year out (it's been 64 games since they've had a 100 yard rusher in a game -- this is a real stat :lol, and really middling offensive weapons around him since Johnson retired (I love Tate, but he's no Baldwin -- their best pass catching threat is a solid #2 WR who is surrounded by nobody else).

The genius behind Wilson's many rollouts are that they completely wear down defensive lines, hence his many 4th quarter comebacks.... Notice how little gas opposing DLs seem to have after chasing this guy around for three quarters....