Identity? Running or Passing?

StoneCold

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I keep reading the Hawks need to pick an identity and then draft, sign and coach accordingly. If it's Running and Defense or high scoring offense. They blame the poor performance on this lack of a clear identity. I think this misses the point of what Pete would like. He wants balance. 30 running plays and 30 rushing plays would make Pete smile. I know people will say, but Russell is the best player on the team, you have to build around him. Honestly, is there anyone that's watched this team all year that doesn't think a running game is the best thing you could do to help Russell?

I think it's painfully obvious that the answer is "hell yes". It has nothing to do with picking an identity. Pete knows what he wants and they, also painfully obviously, failed. We can all dissect which player/coach is the root cause or the combination of such that should take the most responsibility, but I think this idea they lack an identity is BS.
 

Seymour

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Yep. Pete knows what he wants alright. Just incapable to build it for 2 years worth of attempts and 18 draft picks to chose from.

I'd settle for a 1st half offense over an identity myself.

Everything begins with the oline, both running game and passing. See Rams (Goff and Gurly) 2016 to 2017 for prime example of this. I have complete confidence that Cable is incapable to get us on track myself.
 

Bobblehead

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who cares, the only identity that matters is winning.. Pats identity is winning SB's.. how is how ever they do it.
 

MontanaHawk05

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Their desired identity is running. They got away from it because of INJURY. I'm not sure why people keep missing that.
 

Seymour

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MontanaHawk05":blcvez2p said:
Their desired identity is running. They got away from it because of INJURY. I'm not sure why people keep missing that.

Chris Carson and his whopping 4.2 YPC early average is not going to save the team. When they need a yard, they cannot get a yard....with any back. We release Collins and he goes on to over double any back here's output, ave 4.6 YPC and he was our worst back?

Wrong, it's the line that cannot move the yard on 4th and 1 not the back.
 

Popeyejones

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I think people over-emphasize the loss of Lynch on the downfall of the Hawks' running attack, and massively under-emphasize the decline of the read/option as a staple of NFL running attacks, and that the Hawks haven't really adapted from the loss of the read/option as a staple of the offense.

Unlike the other read option teams (e.g. Washington, Carolina, San Francisco) which have all transitioned to other types of rushing attacks (e.g. outside zone in Washington, power gap and then outside zone in SF, a kinda "exotic smashmouth" in Carolina) the Hawks are still essentially running inside zone read option plays without any actual read option.

People forget that even Lynch was really ineffective in the Hawks' offense in 2015, which was when the read/option really went away because it had been figured out.

To be very clear though, I don't think this is just an issue of poor scheming, as the types of run plays you can call from shotgun are much more limited than what you can do from under center, and there's other reasons why the Hawks still prefer to play out of shotgun.
 

original poster

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Seymour":dn3jirvv said:
MontanaHawk05":dn3jirvv said:
Their desired identity is running. They got away from it because of INJURY. I'm not sure why people keep missing that.

Chris Carson and his whopping 4.2 YPC early average is not going to save the team. When they need a yard, they cannot get a yard....with any back. We release Collins and he goes on to over double any back here's output, ave 4.6 YPC and he was our worst back?

Wrong, it's the line that cannot move the yard on 4th and 1 not the back.

100% agree.

ANY back in this league should be able to gain a single yard at least 7 times out of 10.
 

vin.couve12

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Balance.

Somehow this is rocket science, but you have proficiency in both so when one fails you have the other and it also lends to fluid or dynamic gameplanning to attack weaknesses.

It's not that hard.
 
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StoneCold

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vin.couve12":2a0kjxdr said:
Balance.

Somehow this is rocket science, but you have proficiency in both so when one fails you have the other and it also lends to fluid or dynamic gameplanning to attack weaknesses.

It's not that hard.

I would agree it's not hard to grasp, but it can be hard to create. If it were easy...
 
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StoneCold

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MontanaHawk05":1zrwe7gy said:
Their desired identity is running. They got away from it because of INJURY. I'm not sure why people keep missing that.

I think Pete would disagree with you. They desire to be able to run the ball, but not to the exclusion of being able to pass.
 

Seymour

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vin.couve12":1wo45zgr said:
Balance.

Somehow this is rocket science, but you have proficiency in both so when one fails you have the other and it also lends to fluid or dynamic gameplanning to attack weaknesses.

It's not that hard.

Agree.
The idea that we are committed to the run, or even committed to the pass needs to be replaced to committed to scoring TD's. Do what ever it takes, and take whatever they give. Drop the "it's not about them it's about us" crap! It's about BOTH Pete! Stop the run, run, 3 deep bomb bullshit and move the friggen chains.
 

MontanaHawk05

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original poster":1liht8nm said:
ANY back in this league should be able to gain a single yard at least 7 times out of 10.

If you can't do that, you're probably not getting a 3.7 YPC. (I use the 3.7 figure because some people point out that 4.2 included one big run.)
 

Lords of Scythia

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MontanaHawk05":2bwp185z said:
Their desired identity is running. They got away from it because of INJURY. I'm not sure why people keep missing that.
Yes. Our identity is establishing the run to pull in the safety, then go to work passing and qb scrambling. This has been our identity under Carrol's whole regiem. The only issue is if we have the heatlhy personel to execute it.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

mrt144

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Popeyejones":1eermro5 said:
I think people over-emphasize the loss of Lynch on the downfall of the Hawks' running attack, and massively under-emphasize the decline of the read/option as a staple of NFL running attacks, and that the Hawks haven't really adapted from the loss of the read/option as a staple of the offense.

Unlike the other read option teams (e.g. Washington, Carolina, San Francisco) which have all transitioned to other types of rushing attacks (e.g. outside zone in Washington, power gap and then outside zone in SF, a kinda "exotic smashmouth" in Carolina) the Hawks are still essentially running inside zone read option plays without any actual read option.

People forget that even Lynch was really ineffective in the Hawks' offense in 2015, which was when the read/option really went away because it had been figured out.

To be very clear though, I don't think this is just an issue of poor scheming, as the types of run plays you can call from shotgun are much more limited than what you can do from under center, and there's other reasons why the Hawks still prefer to play out of shotgun.

I don't think its over emphasis when the alternative is straight crap in multiple facets

1. Yards after contact - ML was pretty good at this and it is fundamental to eeking out SOME yards when the OL invaribly crapped it up
2. Health - ML for that 3 year stretch of greatness was abolsutely more healthy than any individual RB currently on the team and possibly the entirety of the RB stable currently on the team.
3. Pass blocking - he could do it and not just do it but was actually pretty decent at it. That hasn't been the case since.
4. Attitude - That je ne sais quoi
5. Pass catching - okay this is one area where they've probed and had some success - Prosise if he wasn't a glass man would easily be getting 10-15 snaps a game in that kind of role. McKissic did alright in that role. As a dump off option, Mike Davis mysteriously appeared as the only capable back.

I don't think the loss in itself was catastrophic, it was the replacements having maybe 60% of the utility of ML in all those capacities that was. It's not the divorce, its the 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 10th wives, that are the problem.

This speaks nothing to the OL itself but I have a nagging feeling that the expectations that ML set up were way too high and almost denigrating to his individual talent - how so? The assumption that the combination of this line with this stable of running backs would be 'good enough'. I look at it from the other direction - things were only good enough for the greatest spurt of the Hawks history because of ML - take out that factor and what was previously good enough out of the OL (the OL that very few Hawks fans have loved since 2005), obviously isn't.

I do agree though that the diminishment of the RO league wide, not just the Hawks is an indicator that whatever juice that brought to the game is spent.
 

CodeWarrior

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MontanaHawk05":26w78d2l said:
Their desired identity is running. They got away from it because of INJURY. I'm not sure why people keep missing that.

How do you figure that? The OL was relatively healthy, aside from losing Aboushi, and Fant in the pre-season. Not sure you could have expected much from Fant based on his performance thus far. The team can't run because the blocking is absolute dogshit. Week 17 we still can't pick up a simple stunt or even get the assignments down. Mike Davis lost four yards on a dive play... I've NEVER seen that happen before. Britt simply decided not to block the DT.

I just don't see what Cable offers as a line coach. Our players don't develop, nor do they learn even the most basic of assignments. What else is a coach for?

Some of the blame can be placed on losing Carson, but then again we had a $4M RB in Lacy that wasn't even active. Just a well-rounded coaching failure.
 

Seymour

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CodeWarrior":gio30x2v said:
MontanaHawk05":gio30x2v said:
Their desired identity is running. They got away from it because of INJURY. I'm not sure why people keep missing that.

How do you figure that? The OL was relatively healthy, aside from losing Aboushi, and Fant in the pre-season. Not sure you could have expected much from Fant based on his performance thus far. The team can't run because the blocking is absolute dogshit. Week 17 we still can't pick up a simple stunt or even get the assignments down. Mike Davis lost four yards on a dive play... I've NEVER seen that happen before. Britt simply decided not to block the DT.

I just don't see what Cable offers as a line coach. Our players don't develop, nor do they learn even the most basic of assignments. What else is a coach for?

Some of the blame can be placed on losing Carson, but then again we had a $4M RB in Lacy that wasn't even active. Just a well-rounded coaching failure.

Exactly!!

We are not just "1 RB away" from a running game. Look at Gurly last year. 2016 3.2 YPC w crap oline vs 2017 4.7 YPC w rebuilt oline and new coordinator

Check out this stat that relates to my "need a yard" can you get a yard analogy.

Source: Curtis Crabtree...

2017 the Seahawks ran 43 running plays inside the 20 yard line and gained 46 yards. That folks is a 1.07 YVC average inside the 20. Pathetic. :177692:

How many RB's do people have to see get destroyed by our oline to realize where the #1 problem is? To think our season was ruined by a 7th round unproven flash in the pan RB (may be great...may not be--see Rawls) is another leap of faith that osmosis will fix all of our problems.
 

MontanaHawk05

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CodeWarrior":14pwblfc said:
Some of the blame can be placed on losing Carson, but then again we had a $4M RB in Lacy that wasn't even active. Just a well-rounded coaching failure.

That's what I was referring to. The team brought in seven RB's to compete, someone won pretty decisively and then got lost to injury.

You oughta know by now that I'm never one to lay everything on the OL. When Carson was running, the left tackle was most definitely not Duane Brown. He still got 3.7 YPC even without his big run. That showed promise.
 

CodeWarrior

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MontanaHawk05":16jk0uj9 said:
CodeWarrior":16jk0uj9 said:
Some of the blame can be placed on losing Carson, but then again we had a $4M RB in Lacy that wasn't even active. Just a well-rounded coaching failure.

That's what I was referring to. The team brought in seven RB's to compete, someone won pretty decisively and then got lost to injury.

You oughta know by now that I'm never one to lay everything on the OL. When Carson was running, the left tackle was most definitely not Duane Brown. He still got 3.7 YPC even without his big run. That showed promise.

I agree that it showed promise, but what really troubled me about the run game is the percentage of rushes that resulted in a loss of yards, usually due to the back being hit right as he takes the handoff. At that point it doesn't really matter the player.

Now, I have no data to back this up, but it seems to me like the Seattle OL blows assignments with inordinate frequency. Could just be my own bias as a fan, but with Tom Cable in position as OL coach since 2011 he should have a solid and tried approach to teaching at least the basics of assignment to the newcomers. Ifedi simply cannot get his down. Now, is he just a rockhead, or is the coaching subpar? I say the coaching because this is a story that has been repeated frequently during the Cable era.
 
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StoneCold

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CodeWarrior":1u676fv8 said:
MontanaHawk05":1u676fv8 said:
CodeWarrior":1u676fv8 said:
Some of the blame can be placed on losing Carson, but then again we had a $4M RB in Lacy that wasn't even active. Just a well-rounded coaching failure.

That's what I was referring to. The team brought in seven RB's to compete, someone won pretty decisively and then got lost to injury.

You oughta know by now that I'm never one to lay everything on the OL. When Carson was running, the left tackle was most definitely not Duane Brown. He still got 3.7 YPC even without his big run. That showed promise.

I agree that it showed promise, but what really troubled me about the run game is the percentage of rushes that resulted in a loss of yards, usually due to the back being hit right as he takes the handoff. At that point it doesn't really matter the player.

Now, I have no data to back this up, but it seems to me like the Seattle OL blows assignments with inordinate frequency. Could just be my own bias as a fan, but with Tom Cable in position as OL coach since 2011 he should have a solid and tried approach to teaching at least the basics of assignment to the newcomers. Ifedi simply cannot get his down. Now, is he just a rockhead, or is the coaching subpar? I say the coaching because this is a story that has been repeated frequently during the Cable era.

This guys twitter feed has some egregious examples, but it's hard to tell is it player or is it scheme.

https://twitter.com/guga31bb
 

chris98251

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All we have to look at is Spencer Ware and Alex Collins, supposedly power type guys that could not gain yards here regularly, they had the power of a Lynch but not Lynchs wiggle or maybe attitude which masked what our real issue is.

Looking at our line how often do we see them move the line of scrimmage forward for our running backs ? Or get the surge so to speak driving the defense off the line which gives our backs some forward inertia to gain yards versus dodging guys before they reach the line.
 
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