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Ray Roberts interview on the OL, Cable, Bevell, and Ifedi

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  • Really great interview with former Seahawks OT Ray Roberts and his thoughts on the offense:



    Few notes from it (shout out Seahawks reddit) -

    How the Seahawks run their ZBS is a problem because once they take a step to the right and Russell puts the ball out, it's gonna be a run. The linebackers and defenders know exactly where it's going and they come right downhill and defend it. When you look at some of the stuff Kansas City was doing, having motions in the backfield and they run the zone with it. So they have more things for defenders to look at and read.


    Thought of Ifedi to the inside:
    When they do pass protection, Ifedi does the same angle, the same set, every single time. If you're a defensive linemen, you can game-plan that. You can setup every move you have because you know every single drop back pass he's going to go to the same exact spot, every single time. So then as a offensive linemen you aren't dictating to the defense at all in that situation, they are dictating to you. You have to react to what they're going to do. I think it would be better to give him more tools in his toolbox, so he can go after dudes a little sooner and get to the intersect point a lot faster.


    When Duane Brown came, as his tenure here got longer, with Cable, you could see some of his play deteriorating. I thought man, the technique here is messing him up. When he first came here he blocked the way he always has and was doing great. Then all of a sudden you could start to see the Tom Cable influences. That's the technique that jacked up Duane Brown and that's the technique that I think has really affected Ifedi's ability to get to the outside on an edge rusher because you're giving so much attention to the inside and you only have one arm to stop a dude on the edge.
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  • mistaowen wrote:When Duane Brown came, as his tenure here got longer, with Cable, you could see some of his play deteriorating. I thought man, the technique here is messing him up. When he first came here he blocked the way he always has and was doing great. Then all of a sudden you could start to see the Tom Cable influences. That's the technique that jacked up Duane Brown and that's the technique that I think has really affected Ifedi's ability to get to the outside on an edge rusher because you're giving so much attention to the inside and you only have one arm to stop a dude on the edge.


    I commented previously on Brown's rapid decline in effectiveness, assuming it must have had something to do with Cable's coaching. It was a microcosm of the anti-coaching of Cable.

    To have my supposition confirmed by a professional who knows what's what - just one more reason to be ecstatic that Cabevell is finally history.
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  • Fantastic interview. Great share mistaowen.
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  • Yeah Ray went on to discuss how Cable has his tackles open their torsos to the inside, which caused 2 problems:

    1 - It leaves them only one hand with any leverage to stop a guy on the outside instead of being more square and having both hands in a position where they can fully retract and expand and engage defenders.

    2 - Defenders can just target the inside shoulder since the posture is essentially opening this path to them.

    Honestly the way Ray described it makes you wonder WTF the rationale is for how Cable coaches it. I assume that there is a functional reason for the techniques in the ZBS, but it seems that pass protection at the tackle position is just offered up on the sacrificial alter to serve some other end.
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  • Great analysis by Ray. He is very well spoken and everything he laid out I too have observed over the Cable years and it makes complete sense. Especially on Ifedi, always going to retreat mode and hitting the same spot. I've bitched about that since early season (at tackle) and you can see that he immediately puts himself at a disadvantage and is easy to counter and setup.

    Again on the decline of Brown and split duties between Cabvell, same called out here as well.

    Everyone should listen to this.

    Too bad we didn't have more of this 2 years ago, but now that they are gone, people don't need to tip toe around "Cable the genius" and are calling this out. Kind of irritating in that sense.
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  • hawk45 wrote:Honestly the way Ray described it makes you wonder WTF the rationale is for how Cable coaches it. I assume that there is a functional reason for the techniques in the ZBS, but it seems that pass protection at the tackle position is just offered up on the sacrificial alter to serve some other end.


    And what is that "other end"? I can't recall seeing benefits for run-blocking, so there really aren't any benefits to Cable's system.

    I'm grateful we'll see a change (fingers crossed, I guess).
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  • With the high draft picks we've put into this line, it makes me wonder if they'll actually explode into the top ten in blocking under another coach.

    Can you imagine Chris Carson behind a good line?
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  • WindCityHawk wrote:Can you imagine Chris Carson behind a good line?

    :kool-aid: :kool-aid: :kool-aid:
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  • WindCityHawk wrote:With the high draft picks we've put into this line, it makes me wonder if they'll actually explode into the top ten in blocking under another coach.

    Can you imagine Chris Carson behind a good line?


    Duane Brown was improving the lines pass blocking stats before he changed his technique to Cable's. I was blown away the first game how he actively engaged and moved defenders while pass blocking. I think with a new line coach and Duane coaching up guys like Ifedi in the offseason, there should be a significant improvement. Ray's point to the talent being right on par with most other teams makes me believe it's more technique and scheme than anything.
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  • So glad cable the fable is gone. Dude is O line cancer.
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  • Wow. Even an average, boring OL coach would probably be better than Cable.
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  • I heard a portion of this yesterday and on one hand it pissed me off because it sounded like Cable was so incompetent that he was basically coaching guys to fail, even 10 year veterans who are perennially Pro Bowl caliber. On the other hand, it got me excited that even an average OL coach could get something out of Ifedi.

    Jeez Cable. What a boob.
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  • Ray Roberts and Walter Jones should seriously be considered for the o line coach position
    semiahmoo wrote:I'll say it again - this is Pete's last season in Seattle if the teams doesn't make a legit hard run deep into the playoffs.
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  • Seanhawk wrote:I heard a portion of this yesterday and on one hand it pissed me off because it sounded like Cable was so incompetent that he was basically coaching guys to fail, even 10 year veterans who are perennially Pro Bowl caliber. On the other hand, it got me excited that even an average OL coach could get something out of Ifedi.

    Jeez Cable. What a boob.


    Agree.
    Problem is, our head coach was unable to see the obvious also (this has gone on for years), and our GM called Cable the best oline coach in the NFL just this spring. My point is, they are still here, and we are not out of this yet (shit oline syndrome).
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  • I watched Duane his first game with the Hawks, he was great.
    Then the next games, he looked more and more like the other guys and I started wondering as well.
    Seriously, who nick-named Cable "a Guru"?
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  • Seymour wrote:
    Seanhawk wrote:I heard a portion of this yesterday and on one hand it pissed me off because it sounded like Cable was so incompetent that he was basically coaching guys to fail, even 10 year veterans who are perennially Pro Bowl caliber. On the other hand, it got me excited that even an average OL coach could get something out of Ifedi.

    Jeez Cable. What a boob.


    Agree.
    Problem is, our head coach was unable to see the obvious also (this has gone on for years), and our GM called Cable the best oline coach in the NFL just this spring. My point is, they are still here, and we are not out of this yet (shit oline syndrome).


    I guess, but it's hard to move away from the status quo when you are still having success. Yes, most could see the trend was pointing downward, but they still won the division and a playoff game with Russ injured basically all year and Earl missing time in the stretch run. There was still reason for optimism there because of those injuries.

    It's even more evident that there should be a statue of Blair Walsh outside the stadium because if he is competent, we would have made the playoffs with at least two more wins and nothing would have changed.
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  • Was Pete so in love with the "toughness and attitude" that Cable brought (allegedly) he couldn't see the technical weakness in his style? The Duane Brown comments by another lineman is very telling.
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  • joeseahawks wrote:I watched Duane his first game with the Hawks, he was great.
    Then the next games, he looked more and more like the other guys and I started wondering as well.
    Seriously, who nick-named Cable "a Guru"?


    I think his last great game was against the Jags. He was locking down their pass rushers all game. After that, there was a discernable drop-off. It was so confusing and frustrating to watch.
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  • What it shows me is this. Pete is an excellent defensive minded coach that put way too much faith into his "guys" on the offensive side of the ball. Pete's obsession with the run game, completely blinded him to the fact Cable is, was, and always has been very poor in pass protecting his QB.

    Even in 2013 when we won it all, we had the highest paid line in football (with yes a great run game much thanks to Russ to keeping D from keying 100% on Lynch), and yet with all that $$ spent, we were dead last in the NFL in pass protection. How can our coach be so blind and not be more concerned about our #1 asset?

    Pete's obsession with defense, and his willingness to put all that $$ on that side of the ball, then just play hands off on offense and preach "don't screw it up" is basically most of what he asks. That very formula is a large part of the problem. He needs to balance things better if we are to succeed IMO. Changing the assistants alone will not be enough.
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  • I hope Ray gets a coaching gig or a tv analyst job.
    I love listening to him explain O line and football in general from his experience.
    So entertaining and so insightful!
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  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Wow. Even an average, boring OL coach would probably be better than Cable.


    This
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  • I love Pete, John as much as anyone but to be honest its frustrating that no one in the building said anything or saw this as well. How much time was wasted and how much has it stunted Wilson's growth? I think Wilson is going to be fine and an all time great but as a fan its frustrating. Someone above nailed it, Pete put too much trust in someone who was an "expert" and it cost him. Would love to hear his thoughts on this interview too.
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  • I now have great respect for Ray Roberts - I had no idea. I sure hope the next offensive hires are his calibur.

    Hire Ray for oline coach!!
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  • I improved more as a lineman after listening to ray for 5 minutes than any player cable coached here.

    (Well at tackle certainly)
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  • Pretty brutal.

    The part about Duane Brown, ugh. Not only holding young players back, but actually making talented vets worse. Simply amazing.
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  • I sort of wonder if some of Brown's problems were injury related as well as playing next to someone who wasn't very good. He was still a very good left tackle this year and I expect next year he will be even better.
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  • There's something to this, right? Because Ray knows what he's talking about.

    I hope Carroll and Schneider hear this. Man, so much.
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  • austinslater25 wrote:I love Pete, John as much as anyone but to be honest its frustrating that no one in the building said anything or saw this as well. How much time was wasted and how much has it stunted Wilson's growth? I think Wilson is going to be fine and an all time great but as a fan its frustrating. Someone above nailed it, Pete put too much trust in someone who was an "expert" and it cost him. Would love to hear his thoughts on this interview too.

    You summed up my frustration for the last 3 years with the OC and the O-line coach. Nice post! :2thumbs:
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  • Fantastic listen.
    As far as I'm concerned, Darryl Bevell, Russell Wilson, Germaine Ifedi, Duane Brown, or for that matter, the WHOLE DAMNED O-Line for the last SIX YEARS was as much a victim of Cable's failing leadership....He was the BAD BOSS with the final say on Offense.
    His "Guru" status grew from the accomplishments of the Wilson & Lynch combo.
    The O-Line wasn't Coached up by Cable, to help any other RB that followed.
    I agree that the players need to make plays alright, but they need to be COACHED UP to make "Plays" WORK.
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  • Seymour wrote: (shit oline syndrome).

    LOL S.O.S.
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  • scutterhawk wrote:Fantastic listen.
    As far as I'm concerned, Darryl Bevell, Russell Wilson, Germaine Ifedi, Duane Brown, or for that matter, the WHOLE DAMNED O-Line for the last SIX YEARS was as much a victim of Cable's failing leadership....He was the BAD BOSS with the final say on Offense.
    His "Guru" status grew from the accomplishments of the Wilson & Lynch combo.
    The O-Line wasn't Coached up by Cable, to help any other RB that followed.
    I agree that the players need to make plays alright, but they need to be COACHED UP to make "Plays" WORK.


    Not entirely true, Cable had last word on the run game, not the passing game.

    Which IMO was part of the problem, Pete allowed a dysfunctional co-offensive coordinator dynamic to exist with Bevell and Cable both installing game planes, schemes and scripted playcalling.

    Hard to be successful with the offense being pulled in two different directions by two coaches with differing opinions on how to install game plans and call plays. Probably why we were throwing the gameplans out the window after the first two series EVERY game.
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  • Can big Walt come in and analyze the line ala Roberts?
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  • Awesome share, thanks for posting mistaowen.

    I agree with much of the sentiment that Brown got progressively worse as his time here moved forward but it was just so coincidental and hard to believe that Cable was that bad that he could affect a Pro Bowl LT like that. Was thinking is was more to do with his injury but then it just really became obvious that this was a scheme problem.

    The part of the interview that I found the most telling was this.

    mistaowen wrote:How the Seahawks run their ZBS is a problem because once they take a step to the right and Russell puts the ball out, it's gonna be a run. The linebackers and defenders know exactly where it's going and they come right downhill and defend it. When you look at some of the stuff Kansas City was doing, having motions in the backfield and they run the zone with it. So they have more things for defenders to look at and read.




    On the GD forum, it seemed, every week I would be utterly frustrated on how the defense just knew every time when we were going to run the ball. Couldn't quit put my finger on how this was, thought maybe obvious formations because we would throw the ball a majority of the time during games and then sneak a run in and the defense was on it immediately. I mean all the LBs were running full speed in the direction of the run every time. The few times we would get 5+ yards on a carry the RB would have to dodge defenders like he was avoiding bullets in the matrix.

    Ray seems very well spoken and would be all for him bringing his toolbox to the Seahawks as the next OLC.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    scutterhawk wrote:Fantastic listen.
    As far as I'm concerned, Darryl Bevell, Russell Wilson, Germaine Ifedi, Duane Brown, or for that matter, the WHOLE DAMNED O-Line for the last SIX YEARS was as much a victim of Cable's failing leadership....He was the BAD BOSS with the final say on Offense.
    His "Guru" status grew from the accomplishments of the Wilson & Lynch combo.
    The O-Line wasn't Coached up by Cable, to help any other RB that followed.
    I agree that the players need to make plays alright, but they need to be COACHED UP to make "Plays" WORK.


    Not entirely true, Cable had last word on the run game, not the passing game.

    Which IMO was part of the problem, Pete allowed a dysfunctional co-offensive coordinator dynamic to exist with Bevell and Cable both installing game planes, schemes and scripted playcalling.

    Hard to be successful with the offense being pulled in two different directions by two coaches with differing opinions on how to install game plans and call plays. Probably why we were throwing the gameplans out the window after the first two series EVERY game.


    NO, gotdammit, CABLE was the O-Line Coach, it was up to CABLE to train/Teach/Coach the O-Line on how to Pass/Run Block, it was NOT Bevell's job to fix the screwed up O-Line, it was his job to draw up plays ....Did you see the Pic's of our WHOLE O-LINE laying on the ground, and the Defense closing in on Russell Wilson.
    Did you see Doug Baldwin shoving at Cable to shush him up while Russell Wilson was TRYING to address the O-Line?
    Blocking for the Run & Passing was ALL on Cable.
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  • I've got a question about the run game predictability issue. Roberts mentioned KC using motion to keep defenses on their toes. ATL used it very well last year under Shanny and the Niners used it to best the #1 Jags D this year.

    Is not incorporating that a Bev thing or a Cable thing? I guess it doesn't matter now but I'm curious. I always wanted us to use more motion and creativity before the snap but we rarely did. The fact that it's not clear whose responsibility that was is worrisome in of itself.
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  • I heard this interview in my truck on my way home from work yesterday. Amazing interview. Ray is so well versed when it comes to football talk. He's great. Right when I was thinking "man, he sure sounds like he should be the Hawks O-line coach", Bob mentioned all the texts coming in about that same thought, haha.
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  • He makes a lot of great points and one that really sticks out is that Cable/offense apologists will say is ‘well, look at what he’s working with’ is more an indictment of his poor scouting philosophy. He’s right, either Cable is a poor scout or does a poor job of developing the line, or both. (Its both)
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  • Can we at least consider this guy as Cable's replacement?
    Also, this analysis makes me even more excited after reading elsewhere that Cable might be in the running for the Cowboys job. If he could screw up Brown in just a few weeks, imagine what he would do to that Cowboys Oline. We get stronger and the Cowboys get weaker....win, win!
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  • I believed whoever is hired to be the OC will decide who the OL coach will be.

    Whoever they decide on at OC, it might be after the SuperBowl. My guess.
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  • Sports Hernia wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:I love Pete, John as much as anyone but to be honest its frustrating that no one in the building said anything or saw this as well. How much time was wasted and how much has it stunted Wilson's growth? I think Wilson is going to be fine and an all time great but as a fan its frustrating. Someone above nailed it, Pete put too much trust in someone who was an "expert" and it cost him. Would love to hear his thoughts on this interview too.

    You summed up my frustration for the last 3 years with the OC and the O-line coach. Nice post! :2thumbs:


    I'm good for a nice post every couple of years!
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  • Sports Hernia wrote:
    austinslater25 wrote:I love Pete, John as much as anyone but to be honest its frustrating that no one in the building said anything or saw this as well. How much time was wasted and how much has it stunted Wilson's growth? I think Wilson is going to be fine and an all time great but as a fan its frustrating. Someone above nailed it, Pete put too much trust in someone who was an "expert" and it cost him. Would love to hear his thoughts on this interview too.

    You summed up my frustration for the last 3 years with the OC and the O-line coach. Nice post! :2thumbs:


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  • austinslater25 wrote:I sort of wonder if some of Brown's problems were injury related as well as playing next to someone who wasn't very good. He was still a very good left tackle this year and I expect next year he will be even better.


    I think Brown's issues this past year were a combo of Cable+injury ( soon after joining Hawks )+ adjusting to a QB who left the pocket as much as Russell does. I won't even try to assign percentages to any of those but they all had something to do with it. Remember Brown only played one game with Watson behind center against Seattle and it was his first game back this season. You could see a few plays each game where he forced his guy wide and deep to the point where his internal clock told him to disengage to not get a holding call only to see Russell spin to his side. It looked like he was expecting Russell to step up and instead he spun into the rusher.
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  • This gives me hope, but also pisses me off. How many great teams did we waste because of Cable?
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  • Well many of us had been wondering if there were tells tipping off the defense, now we know. I remember the MLB had the number on a Mariners pitcher for a few years and knew when he was going to throw a certain pitch and were able to abuse it for a few years before a trade brought a player to Seattle that finally told them.
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  • lukerguy wrote:This gives me hope, but also pisses me off. How many great teams did we waste because of Cable?

    At least 3.
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  • chris98251 wrote:Well many of us had been wondering if there were tells tipping off the defense, now we know. I remember the MLB had the number on a Mariners pitcher for a few years and knew when he was going to throw a certain pitch and were able to abuse it for a few years before a trade brought a player to Seattle that finally told them.

    Thats happened a few times, but I remember the incident you were talking about, don’t remember the pitcher though.
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  • adeltaY wrote:
    joeseahawks wrote:I watched Duane his first game with the Hawks, he was great.
    Then the next games, he looked more and more like the other guys and I started wondering as well.
    Seriously, who nick-named Cable "a Guru"?


    I think his last great game was against the Jags. He was locking down their pass rushers all game. After that, there was a discernable drop-off. It was so confusing and frustrating to watch.

    I am certain this was the trigger point for change. Had they not gotten Brown, change may not have come. His decline was too rapid and obvious to be anything other than coaching/schemes.
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