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End of an Era?

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End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:07 am
  • I'm not saying that this is the end of the Seahawks being a winning team, I think that Pete/John can still employ their "winning formula" with new players and coaches. What I am saying that it is looking more and more like the end of the era of personalities that we have become so accustomed to.

    From Russell Wilson the so-called choir boy, to the brashness of Richard Sherman, serious (not angry) Doug Baldwin, Bennett the joker/activist, and intense ET, etc., etc., we have been exposed to much more than just their individual styles of football acumen, we have gotten to know them as human beings. This would not have been possible without an organization that not only allowed personal expression, but encouraged it. I, for one, have not only found it interesting but damned entertaining too.

    Is it possible to start a thread like this w/o it digressing into a political argument over certain players actions? I certainly don't intend it that way, I'm merely saying that we were lucky enough to have a core group of players for a length of time that allowed us to really get to know them. A couple of them will stay but most will be gone soon. Will the next group of core players be as interesting? Who knows, but I look forward to seeing what happens.

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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:30 am
  • Yes, I think turning over almost every coach on the staff is a sign that Pete and John are going to turn a LOT of the roster over as well, get young and hungry again and try and get back to another SB.

    It won't be everyone, some of these contracts (like Kam) are impossible to get off of. But yes, I think many of the vets are gone, except for the core players Pete and John think can still contribute for the next 4-5 years.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:45 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Yes, I think turning over almost every coach on the roster is a sign that Pete and John are going to turn a LOT of the roster over as well, get young and hungry again and try and get back to another SB.

    It won't be everyone, some of these contracts (like Kam) are impossible to get off of. But yes, I think many of the vets are gone, except for the core players Pete and John think can still contribute for the next 4-5 years.



    While I think there will be roster churn.. I think the Vets that remain are still the ones that have been the character of the team since PC took over (outside Lynch, who was a huge impact)

    RW, Baldwin, Sherman, ET, Kam, (and Wagner) will still be here next season. They are and always have been the heart of the team (with Lynch, whose void desperately needs replacing)

    Players like Bennett and Avril may be moved along.. but that's not the end of this era, just their role in it.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:57 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Yes, I think turning over almost every coach on the roster is a sign that Pete and John are going to turn a LOT of the roster over as well, get young and hungry again and try and get back to another SB.

    It won't be everyone, some of these contracts (like Kam) are impossible to get off of. But yes, I think many of the vets are gone, except for the core players Pete and John think can still contribute for the next 4-5 years.



    While I think there will be roster churn.. I think the Vets that remain are still the ones that have been the character of the team since PC took over (outside Lynch, who was a huge impact)

    RW, Baldwin, Sherman, ET, Kam, (and Wagner) will still be here next season. They are and always have been the heart of the team (with Lynch, whose void desperately needs replacing)

    Players like Bennett and Avril may be moved along.. but that's not the end of this era, just their role in it.


    RW, Doug, and Wagner (whose personality has never really been featured) are here for a while but the rest are gone soon, that is what I was referring to. What we will see this year will just be the start of a complete makeover.

    Pete and John did this a few years ago. One thing about them, when they get ready to make moves they are not timid.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:58 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:Yes, I think turning over almost every coach on the roster is a sign that Pete and John are going to turn a LOT of the roster over as well, get young and hungry again and try and get back to another SB.

    It won't be everyone, some of these contracts (like Kam) are impossible to get off of. But yes, I think many of the vets are gone, except for the core players Pete and John think can still contribute for the next 4-5 years.



    While I think there will be roster churn.. I think the Vets that remain are still the ones that have been the character of the team since PC took over (outside Lynch, who was a huge impact)

    RW, Baldwin, Sherman, ET, Kam, (and Wagner) will still be here next season. They are and always have been the heart of the team (with Lynch, whose void desperately needs replacing)

    Players like Bennett and Avril may be moved along.. but that's not the end of this era, just their role in it.


    For sure, we can debate on who Pete and John want as their "core."

    Definitely Russell, Doug and Bobby..................the interesting players are Bennett, Earl and Sherm. As all three have big contracts that we assume aren't going to be extended. Sherman's not tradeable right now, at least not for fair value. So yes, I think he's back no matter what.

    There's a team out clause on Bennett after 2018, so I think he's back for one more year, or traded.

    Earl? Honestly have no idea. My guess is it'll be like Sherman last year, if you want him, come get him and give us a 1st rounder. If not? He's back playing out his deal. But I can't see an extension.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:04 am
  • Sherman has to get healthy and pass a physical, you may not get 1st rounder's or two first rounder's like was asked and then dropped to a first and a second last year, but 14 million in savings flipped to Maxwell say at 5 million and maybe getting a third for Sherman would have to be considered. Getting something and relief in cap with a body in place that is able to play the position in a year where we have a limited amount of picks may be worth it long term.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:16 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Yes, I think turning over almost every coach on the staff is a sign that Pete and John are going to turn a LOT of the roster over as well, get young and hungry again and try and get back to another SB.



    I completely agree with this, there will be some reallly significant surprises with the roster changes too.

    There are only a very few players on the roster who's job is safe.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:20 am
  • Probably the end of the winning era, at least for another year.

    I'm kind of resigning myself to no playoffs in 2018 at this point. I realize it's crazy premature to do that before the draft and free agency, but Seattle went win-now with the Duane Brown trade and injury replacement signings and it's left them in a pickle. They don't have a lot of collateral to replace all the talent they'll be offloading, and everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.

    It's much more likely that we'll simply be fielding a less talented team in 2018 - that things will have to get worse before they get better.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:21 am
  • chris98251 wrote:Sherman has to get healthy and pass a physical, you may not get 1st rounder's or two first rounder's like was asked and then dropped to a first and a second last year, but 14 million in savings flipped to Maxwell say at 5 million and maybe getting a third for Sherman would have to be considered. Getting something and relief in cap with a body in place that is able to play the position in a year where we have a limited amount of picks may be worth it long term.


    Yep, good point.

    Sherman can't go anywhere until he's fully healthy and back on the active roster...........which for an achilles rupture? Who knows, might even start the year on the PUP.

    That's why I think Earl might be gone. You can't have almost 20M of the defensive backfield's salary on the IR with Kam and Sherman to start the year, AND hoping Earl can stay healthy soaking up another 10M?

    That's pretty damn risky.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:30 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:Yes, I think turning over almost every coach on the staff is a sign that Pete and John are going to turn a LOT of the roster over as well, get young and hungry again and try and get back to another SB.

    It won't be everyone, some of these contracts (like Kam) are impossible to get off of. But yes, I think many of the vets are gone, except for the core players Pete and John think can still contribute for the next 4-5 years.


    I agree with this but I would consider the timeframe within the next 2-3 years. New CBA will start to take form next year and apply in 2020. We as a fanbase and other fan bases will not know the total affect of that agreement until they slap it to us...and the teams.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:38 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I'm kind of resigning myself to no playoffs in 2018 at this point. I realize it's crazy premature to do that before the draft and free agency, but Seattle went win-now with the Duane Brown trade and injury replacement signings and it's left them in a pickle. They don't have a lot of collateral to replace all the talent they'll be offloading, and everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    The point about the win-now philosophy that characterized last year is spot-on AND you know, unlike the previous year, I can't fault them for any of the moves they made. I was so excited when we got Sheldon Richardson and then Duane Brown, I really thought they were the missing pieces. In fact, just about all the moves they made last year, Bradley McDougald etc., were excellent, it just didn't work out with all the injuries and disappointing running back play.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:54 am
  • DomeHawk wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:I'm kind of resigning myself to no playoffs in 2018 at this point. I realize it's crazy premature to do that before the draft and free agency, but Seattle went win-now with the Duane Brown trade and injury replacement signings and it's left them in a pickle. They don't have a lot of collateral to replace all the talent they'll be offloading, and everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    The point about the win-now philosophy that characterized last year is spot-on AND you know, unlike the previous year, I can't fault them for any of the moves they made. I was so excited when we got Sheldon Richardson and then Duane Brown, I really thought they were the missing pieces. In fact, just about all the moves they made last year, Bradley McDougald etc., were excellent, it just didn't work out with all the injuries and disappointing running back play.


    I was fine with the Richardson and Brown moves............but if we're delving into WHY we had to get those two, there's a deeper criticism to be made.

    When you're mortgaging your next year or two's draft to fill in VITAL starting positions? It means you didn't adequately address those needs the year(s) before.

    So yeah, those are great players, and they both played well. But the negative snowball effect is;

    - failure to draft
    - straps your cap taking on those massive salaries which means not having that money to address other needs
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:13 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

    But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

    My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

    That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:51 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:I was fine with the Richardson and Brown moves............but if we're delving into WHY we had to get those two, there's a deeper criticism to be made.

    When you're mortgaging your next year or two's draft to fill in VITAL starting positions? It means you didn't adequately address those needs the year(s) before.

    So yeah, those are great players, and they both played well. But the negative snowball effect is;

    - failure to draft
    - straps your cap taking on those massive salaries which means not having that money to address other needs
    [/quote][/quote]

    Granted, but if those moves w/o the injuries and better production from the RB's had got us to the Super Bowl again you would have said it was well worth it.
    Last edited by DomeHawk on Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:52 am
  • hawk45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

    But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

    My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

    That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.


    The correlation you're implying isn't really provable. If you really want to try to convince me that we're better off without ten touchdowns (3rd in the league), honestly, you'd better pack a lunch.

    I appreciate the criticisms of Graham. But in 2014, everyone was howling for a big red-zone target. That wasn't for no reason. They'll be howling again in 2018, most likely.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:54 am
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:I'm kind of resigning myself to no playoffs in 2018 at this point. I realize it's crazy premature to do that before the draft and free agency, but Seattle went win-now with the Duane Brown trade and injury replacement signings and it's left them in a pickle. They don't have a lot of collateral to replace all the talent they'll be offloading, and everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    The point about the win-now philosophy that characterized last year is spot-on AND you know, unlike the previous year, I can't fault them for any of the moves they made. I was so excited when we got Sheldon Richardson and then Duane Brown, I really thought they were the missing pieces. In fact, just about all the moves they made last year, Bradley McDougald etc., were excellent, it just didn't work out with all the injuries and disappointing running back play.


    I was fine with the Richardson and Brown moves............but if we're delving into WHY we had to get those two, there's a deeper criticism to be made.

    When you're mortgaging your next year or two's draft to fill in VITAL starting positions? It means you didn't adequately address those needs the year(s) before.

    So yeah, those are great players, and they both played well. But the negative snowball effect is;

    - failure to draft
    - straps your cap taking on those massive salaries which means not having that money to address other needs


    Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that.

    Brown was the kind of move that I was critical of at the time, and still am. We lost two high picks for one player who didn't - couldn't - improve the offense all on his own. It was not a good move and could well go a long ways towards a down year.

    Where I'll disagree with Dome was Lacy, Joeckel, and Walsh signings. Those were bad.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:58 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that..


    Maybe, we still might have needed Richardson even if McDowell was healthy, or another veteran expensive interior lineman after we got into the season and saw that Reed and Jefferson weren't going to stay healthy either.

    Also if we don't resign Richardson, does that change your opinion on whether it was good deal or not? Cause right now I'm OK with it, but if we don't keep him? Oh man, that's really bad to give up a high pick for a one year rental player.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:18 am
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that.

    Brown was the kind of move that I was critical of at the time, and still am. We lost two high picks for one player who didn't - couldn't - improve the offense all on his own. It was not a good move and could well go a long ways towards a down year.

    Where I'll disagree with Dome was Lacy, Joeckel, and Walsh signings. Those were bad.


    Maybe not just using tunnel vision on that alone. However it is very easy to criticize using our top pick on a red flag player that ended up costing a chain reaction of another signing and more draft losses because the guy took himself out for somewhere between 1 year and forever. There are many great players we passed on to make this move.

    They need to take quality lower risk players in early rounds and save the red flag risks for later rounds IMO.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:05 pm
  • In the broad sense, I don't think this era is over until Pete is gone. Ten years from now I think generally people will look back at this time as the Pete Carroll era. Probably be subsets though, like when speaking about defense as the Quinn era etc. Good chance that the era of LOB is over though
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:12 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that.

    Brown was the kind of move that I was critical of at the time, and still am. We lost two high picks for one player who didn't - couldn't - improve the offense all on his own. It was not a good move and could well go a long ways towards a down year.

    Where I'll disagree with Dome was Lacy, Joeckel, and Walsh signings. Those were bad.


    Maybe not just using tunnel vision on that alone. However it is very easy to criticize using our top pick on a red flag player that ended up costing a chain reaction of another signing and more draft losses because the guy took himself out for somewhere between 1 year and forever. There are many great players we passed on to make this move.

    They need to take quality lower risk players in early rounds and save the red flag risks for later rounds IMO.


    McDowell has been a disaster of a pick. But Frank Clark was not.

    Therein lies the dilemma.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:56 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawk45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

    But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

    My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

    That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.


    The correlation you're implying isn't really provable. If you really want to try to convince me that we're better off without ten touchdowns (3rd in the league), honestly, you'd better pack a lunch.

    I appreciate the criticisms of Graham. But in 2014, everyone was howling for a big red-zone target. That wasn't for no reason. They'll be howling again in 2018, most likely.


    I'm not criticizing Graham. I quite agree that he adds something significant and valuable to the scoring offense, and that it will be work to replace it. Also, I did not say we'd be fine without 10 touchdowns. You'll notice I distinctly point out that the argument for being fine without Graham rests upon replacing those 10 touchdowns.

    Of course my correlation isn't provable. Neither is your assertion that Graham will match or come near to his 10-TD production in another hypothetical year. Or that other parts of the offense (rushing attack) may not rise to a level where they offset losing his production. All such assertions are inextricably tied to the performance of the new coaches which we can't assess yet.

    So, in order to be fair to that, I avoided characterizing your argument as "being obsessed with" the idea that Graham will score 10 TDs every year the rest of his career. Because I'm interested in responding to the actual merits of your position, rather than mischaracterizing it for ease of dispensing with it.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:10 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that.

    Brown was the kind of move that I was critical of at the time, and still am. We lost two high picks for one player who didn't - couldn't - improve the offense all on his own. It was not a good move and could well go a long ways towards a down year.

    Where I'll disagree with Dome was Lacy, Joeckel, and Walsh signings. Those were bad.


    Maybe not just using tunnel vision on that alone. However it is very easy to criticize using our top pick on a red flag player that ended up costing a chain reaction of another signing and more draft losses because the guy took himself out for somewhere between 1 year and forever. There are many great players we passed on to make this move.

    They need to take quality lower risk players in early rounds and save the red flag risks for later rounds IMO.


    It's not that black and white.

    I get what you're saying, but IMO it's value vs risk, and obviously Pete and John thought the value of getting a player like McDowell vs the risk of his character and work ethic was worth it.

    Lynch, Bruce Irvin, Frank Clark...............all on the other side of what you're suggesting. The calculated risk/reward paid off.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:17 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that.

    Brown was the kind of move that I was critical of at the time, and still am. We lost two high picks for one player who didn't - couldn't - improve the offense all on his own. It was not a good move and could well go a long ways towards a down year.

    Where I'll disagree with Dome was Lacy, Joeckel, and Walsh signings. Those were bad.


    Maybe not just using tunnel vision on that alone. However it is very easy to criticize using our top pick on a red flag player that ended up costing a chain reaction of another signing and more draft losses because the guy took himself out for somewhere between 1 year and forever. There are many great players we passed on to make this move.

    They need to take quality lower risk players in early rounds and save the red flag risks for later rounds IMO.


    It's not that black and white.

    I get what you're saying, but IMO it's value vs risk, and obviously Pete and John thought the value of getting a player like McDowell vs the risk of his character and work ethic was worth it.

    Lynch, Bruce Irvin, Frank Clark...............all on the other side of what you're suggesting. The calculated risk/reward paid off.


    Lynch wasn't drafted by us. Beyond that, if we add an additional bust of 1 out of 5 (above the average bust rate for that round), then IMO it's safe to say that is too high a price. Are you saying that Irvin and Clark are that much better than everyone else that was available at the time? That could not only be disputed, but we could go back and prove there were better players on the board (ie risk was greater than reward).
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:23 pm
  • Yeah, we didn't burn a first on Lynch.

    Clark has worked out.

    Bruce Irvin became an okay starter at OLB which isn't what they drafted him for, but he didn't fail due to character issues, so far as I can tell, so I'll grant that as another success drafting iffy character guys high.

    The iffy character thing has had mixed results. McDowell lit a first round pick on fire and Harvin warped our offense for half a year until we jettisoned him. Clark and Irvin started.

    Seymour the argument isn't around whether we could have drafted better players than Irvin and Clark in those drafts. The argument is whether it was iffy characters that are the reason that those players haven't done better. IMO that isn't evident. You can argue that our talent evaluation fell down if we failed to draft a better player, but not that it fell down specifically around character.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:31 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Lynch wasn't drafted by us. Beyond that, if we add an additional bust of 1 out of 5 (above the average bust rate for that round), then IMO it's safe to say that is too high a price. Are you saying that Irvin and Clark are that much better than everyone else that was available at the time? That could not only be disputed, but we could go back and prove there were better players on the board (ie risk was greater than reward).


    I'm saying with guys like Irvin, Clark and McDowell their character/work ethic is what made them a value, and therefore worth considering and drafting.

    McDowell was the same, mid first rounder that fell to the early 2nd because of character issues.

    So to say "well why not just draft the next best guy that DOESN'T have character issues" means that you might be passing on a good value for talent.

    And like any draft pick, you don't know if he's going to work out or not. Sometimes it's character value, sometimes it's work ethic value, and sometimes it's height value like with Russell.

    Many reasons players fall in the draft, doesn't mean you don't consider them just to go with the safer pick. Arguably the "safest" pick in Hawk's history was Aaron Curry, he was the CAN'T MISS! pick of the entire draft.

    Well.........he missed, just like McDowell. Doesn't mean you don't keep evaluating that risk vs reward, cause sometimes it hits.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:34 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawk45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

    But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

    My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

    That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.


    The correlation you're implying isn't really provable. If you really want to try to convince me that we're better off without ten touchdowns (3rd in the league), honestly, you'd better pack a lunch.

    I appreciate the criticisms of Graham. But in 2014, everyone was howling for a big red-zone target. That wasn't for no reason. They'll be howling again in 2018, most likely.


    A good running game should get you ten Touchdowns a season collectively we had how many from our Running back? I think it was Zero, McKissic caught one pass for a TD but not running.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:38 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawk45 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

    But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

    My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

    That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.


    The correlation you're implying isn't really provable. If you really want to try to convince me that we're better off without ten touchdowns (3rd in the league), honestly, you'd better pack a lunch.

    I appreciate the criticisms of Graham. But in 2014, everyone was howling for a big red-zone target. That wasn't for no reason. They'll be howling again in 2018, most likely.


    A good running game should get you ten Touchdowns a season collectively we had how many from our Running back?


    Nice. You got our red-zone production back to...where it was in 2017. Which I think we all agree wasn't enough.

    Oh wait, we're not even back there yet...we let Paul Richardson walk, too.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:40 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm saying with guys like Irvin, Clark and McDowell their character/work ethic is what made them a value, and therefore worth considering and drafting.

    McDowell was the same, mid first rounder that fell to the early 2nd because of character issues.

    So to say "well why not just draft the next best guy that DOESN'T have character issues" means that you might be passing on a good value for talent.

    And like any draft pick, you don't know if he's going to work out or not. Sometimes it's character value, sometimes it's work ethic value, and sometimes it's height value like with Russell.

    Many reasons players fall in the draft, doesn't mean you don't consider them just to go with the safer pick. Arguably the "safest" pick in Hawk's history was Aaron Curry, he was the CAN'T MISS! pick of the entire draft.

    Well.........he missed, just like McDowell.
    Doesn't mean you don't keep evaluating that risk vs reward, cause sometimes it hits.



    Curry's impact was not just like McDowell IMO. Curry we got "some use" for better than 2 years, and got a 7th and a 5th for him to Oakland. McDowell cost us his pick, the Richardson trade, Kearse, and another 2nd round pick overall just to fill the hole. The McDowell pick could well end up being the biggest impacting mistake this team ever made when you take into account the other dominos that fell (if Richardson walks).
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:54 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawk45 wrote:
    I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

    But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

    My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

    That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.


    The correlation you're implying isn't really provable. If you really want to try to convince me that we're better off without ten touchdowns (3rd in the league), honestly, you'd better pack a lunch.

    I appreciate the criticisms of Graham. But in 2014, everyone was howling for a big red-zone target. That wasn't for no reason. They'll be howling again in 2018, most likely.


    A good running game should get you ten Touchdowns a season collectively we had how many from our Running back?


    Nice. You got our red-zone production back to...where it was in 2017. Which I think we all agree wasn't enough.


    Oh wait, we're not even back there yet...we let Paul Richardson walk, too.


    Why are you assuming that Grahams replacement will score zero TD's?
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:04 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm saying with guys like Irvin, Clark and McDowell their character/work ethic is what made them a value, and therefore worth considering and drafting.

    McDowell was the same, mid first rounder that fell to the early 2nd because of character issues.

    So to say "well why not just draft the next best guy that DOESN'T have character issues" means that you might be passing on a good value for talent.

    And like any draft pick, you don't know if he's going to work out or not. Sometimes it's character value, sometimes it's work ethic value, and sometimes it's height value like with Russell.

    Many reasons players fall in the draft, doesn't mean you don't consider them just to go with the safer pick. Arguably the "safest" pick in Hawk's history was Aaron Curry, he was the CAN'T MISS! pick of the entire draft.

    Well.........he missed, just like McDowell.
    Doesn't mean you don't keep evaluating that risk vs reward, cause sometimes it hits.



    Curry's impact was not just like McDowell IMO. Curry we got "some use" for better than 2 years, and got a 7th and a 5th for him to Oakland. McDowell cost us his pick, the Richardson trade, Kearse, and another 2nd round pick overall just to fill the hole. The McDowell pick could well end up being the biggest impacting mistake this team ever made when you take into account the other dominos that fell (if Richardson walks).


    Dude, he was the #4 pick in the draft..............if you're picking 4th you're getting a ten year cornerstone type player.

    And we don't even know what's going on with McDowell yet, he might still play and be a good player. We don't know yet.

    All my points are still valid, you always want your FO to take calculate risks. I'm not sure how any GM could have forseen McDowell getting into a serious ATV accident.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:26 pm
  • End of an era?

    Yes.

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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:37 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm saying with guys like Irvin, Clark and McDowell their character/work ethic is what made them a value, and therefore worth considering and drafting.

    McDowell was the same, mid first rounder that fell to the early 2nd because of character issues.

    So to say "well why not just draft the next best guy that DOESN'T have character issues" means that you might be passing on a good value for talent.

    And like any draft pick, you don't know if he's going to work out or not. Sometimes it's character value, sometimes it's work ethic value, and sometimes it's height value like with Russell.

    Many reasons players fall in the draft, doesn't mean you don't consider them just to go with the safer pick. Arguably the "safest" pick in Hawk's history was Aaron Curry, he was the CAN'T MISS! pick of the entire draft.

    Well.........he missed, just like McDowell.
    Doesn't mean you don't keep evaluating that risk vs reward, cause sometimes it hits.



    Curry's impact was not just like McDowell IMO. Curry we got "some use" for better than 2 years, and got a 7th and a 5th for him to Oakland. McDowell cost us his pick, the Richardson trade, Kearse, and another 2nd round pick overall just to fill the hole. The McDowell pick could well end up being the biggest impacting mistake this team ever made when you take into account the other dominos that fell (if Richardson walks).


    Dude, he was the #4 pick in the draft..............if you're picking 4th you're getting a ten year cornerstone type player.

    And we don't even know what's going on with McDowell yet, he might still play and be a good player. We don't know yet.

    All my points are still valid, you always want your FO to take calculate risks. I'm not sure how any GM could have forseen McDowell getting into a serious ATV accident.


    Soo? Busts happen every year, and no team is exempt. Joeckel was the #2 pick for crying out loud.

    Busts happen more often when you ignore red flags regularly, so why drop your chances even further on higher round picks? Do it in later rounds is my answer.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:42 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Soo? Busts happen every year, and no team is exempt. Joeckel was the #2 pick for crying out loud.

    Busts happen more often when you ignore red flags regularly, so why drop your chances even further on higher round picks? Do it in later rounds is my answer.


    You keep creating these scenarios that don't exist in Seattle.

    What times have we ignored red flags regularly? We've taken gambles on a LOT of players, and most of them have worked out, some VERY well.

    You're harping on one of the few times it didn't, and saying that's the reason we shouldn't do it anymore.......or shouldn't have done it with McDowell.

    Again McDowell was a mid first round talent that fell to the 2nd, and we gambled. Didn't work out (yet), doesn't mean you don't take gambles ever again. Doesn't even mean our FO screwed up. That's the draft, there are no sure things, ever.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:46 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:I'm saying with guys like Irvin, Clark and McDowell their character/work ethic is what made them a value, and therefore worth considering and drafting.

    McDowell was the same, mid first rounder that fell to the early 2nd because of character issues.

    So to say "well why not just draft the next best guy that DOESN'T have character issues" means that you might be passing on a good value for talent.

    And like any draft pick, you don't know if he's going to work out or not. Sometimes it's character value, sometimes it's work ethic value, and sometimes it's height value like with Russell.

    Many reasons players fall in the draft, doesn't mean you don't consider them just to go with the safer pick. Arguably the "safest" pick in Hawk's history was Aaron Curry, he was the CAN'T MISS! pick of the entire draft.

    Well.........he missed, just like McDowell.
    Doesn't mean you don't keep evaluating that risk vs reward, cause sometimes it hits.



    Curry's impact was not just like McDowell IMO. Curry we got "some use" for better than 2 years, and got a 7th and a 5th for him to Oakland. McDowell cost us his pick, the Richardson trade, Kearse, and another 2nd round pick overall just to fill the hole. The McDowell pick could well end up being the biggest impacting mistake this team ever made when you take into account the other dominos that fell (if Richardson walks).


    McDowell is still only 21 years old. The book has not been closed on his career as far as I know.

    For all we know, McDowell and Richardson could both end up being impact players for us next season and in future seasons.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:49 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Soo? Busts happen every year, and no team is exempt. Joeckel was the #2 pick for crying out loud.

    Busts happen more often when you ignore red flags regularly, so why drop your chances even further on higher round picks? Do it in later rounds is my answer.


    You keep creating these scenarios that don't exist in Seattle.

    What times have we ignored red flags regularly?
    We've taken gambles on a LOT of players, and most of them have worked out, some VERY well.

    You're harping on one of the few times it didn't, and saying that's the reason we shouldn't do it anymore.......or shouldn't have done it with McDowell.

    Again McDowell was a mid first round talent that fell to the 2nd, and we gambled. Didn't work out (yet), doesn't mean you don't take gambles ever again. Doesn't even mean our FO screwed up. That's the draft, there are no sure things, ever.


    Irvin.....gone.
    Clark....still here and solid.
    Simon.....gone...(but not before giving up 2 huge SB plays to the same player on the same route)
    McDowell.....career likely ended (according to all info released)

    That = pretty much regularly IMO, and that is just the draft. They have ignored them on traded players as well more so than many teams would.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:58 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    Soo? Busts happen every year, and no team is exempt. Joeckel was the #2 pick for crying out loud.

    Busts happen more often when you ignore red flags regularly, so why drop your chances even further on higher round picks? Do it in later rounds is my answer.


    You keep creating these scenarios that don't exist in Seattle.

    What times have we ignored red flags regularly?
    We've taken gambles on a LOT of players, and most of them have worked out, some VERY well.

    You're harping on one of the few times it didn't, and saying that's the reason we shouldn't do it anymore.......or shouldn't have done it with McDowell.

    Again McDowell was a mid first round talent that fell to the 2nd, and we gambled. Didn't work out (yet), doesn't mean you don't take gambles ever again. Doesn't even mean our FO screwed up. That's the draft, there are no sure things, ever.


    Irvin.....gone.
    Clark....still here and solid.
    Simon.....gone...(but not before giving up 2 huge SB plays to the same player on the same route)
    McDowell.....career likely ended (according to all info released)

    That = pretty much regularly IMO.


    Four guys, three of which contributed and contributed well to above average for years is "regularly?"

    C'mon Seymour, you're grasping at straws. You're wrong, and I'm glad you're not the GM. I and most fans want Pete and John taking calculated risks.

    McDowell may not work out, we'll see. But he is certainly not the norm of character risk drafts for us.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:00 pm
  • And I'm glad you are not the GM because we would be stuck in groundhogs day with Bevell and Cable and would learn nothing from our mistakes.

    I'd like to see this evidence that "most fans prefer to take risks" also please.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:24 pm
  • Seymour wrote:I'd like to see this evidence that "most fans prefer to take risks" also please.


    Oh gawd, not another poll.

    "Survey says....."
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:40 pm
  • Seymour wrote:I'd like to see this evidence that "most fans prefer to take risks" also please.


    I would have liked to see some of those offensive linemen we passed up for sure.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:37 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    DomeHawk wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:I'm kind of resigning myself to no playoffs in 2018 at this point. I realize it's crazy premature to do that before the draft and free agency, but Seattle went win-now with the Duane Brown trade and injury replacement signings and it's left them in a pickle. They don't have a lot of collateral to replace all the talent they'll be offloading, and everyone is obsessed with the idea that saved money will run out onto the field by itself and score Jimmy Graham's touchdowns for him.


    The point about the win-now philosophy that characterized last year is spot-on AND you know, unlike the previous year, I can't fault them for any of the moves they made. I was so excited when we got Sheldon Richardson and then Duane Brown, I really thought they were the missing pieces. In fact, just about all the moves they made last year, Bradley McDougald etc., were excellent, it just didn't work out with all the injuries and disappointing running back play.


    I was fine with the Richardson and Brown moves............but if we're delving into WHY we had to get those two, there's a deeper criticism to be made.

    When you're mortgaging your next year or two's draft to fill in VITAL starting positions? It means you didn't adequately address those needs the year(s) before.

    So yeah, those are great players, and they both played well. But the negative snowball effect is;

    - failure to draft
    - straps your cap taking on those massive salaries which means not having that money to address other needs


    May I add to the list the inexplicable (to me) signing of a head-case kicker. Win now? Why him?
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:02 pm
  • I don't get the "how are we going to replace Jimmy's TDs" argument. Yes, he is an elite RZ weapon. No, I don't think we should pay him 8M+ APY. Did the Saints fall off a cliff after Jimmy left? Do the Patriots see a dip in RZ success when Gronk inevitably misses time? A bit, yes, but you can't say it stymies their offense to the point where they can't put up points. There is no excuse (barring serious injuries) for not scoring more points than we did this year, even if we lose Jimmy.

    As for PRich's six TDs, Lockett only had two TDs this year and I don't see why he can't push that up to five if he's fully healthy next year. Dougie had 8 TDs, it's within the realm of possibility that he gets 10+ next year. Darboh barely played this year and Moore could also get some looks.

    The median number of rushing TDs was 12 this year. If we can get to that point, let's say Russ gets two of them, that's 10 from our RBs, which is nine more than this year. Shoot, if we can be an above average running team and get fifteen, that more than makes up for what Graham misses. If we snag a cheap TE in FA and he gets five TDs, that helps chip away.

    It comes down to us having a better offense overall. If Shotty can scheme to create some space in the RZ, if our line can run-block, and if we can actually make it to the RZ, we will score more points.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:08 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    hawk45 wrote:
    I don't disagree with the larger point that we lack collateral to replace big pieces if they walk.

    But we had more success - measured by playoff appearances - in 2015 and 2016 when Graham's touchdown totals were 2 and 6, respectively. Or prior to that when he was in N.O.

    My fear isn't losing Graham. My fear is losing Graham and failing to restore the run game at the same time. We can afford one or the other and perhaps be okay scoring-wise, but not both.

    That acknowledgment that the offense has not historically, and need not in future, depend on Graham is a fairer reading of those who believe we can afford to lose Graham IMO.


    The correlation you're implying isn't really provable. If you really want to try to convince me that we're better off without ten touchdowns (3rd in the league), honestly, you'd better pack a lunch.

    I appreciate the criticisms of Graham. But in 2014, everyone was howling for a big red-zone target. That wasn't for no reason. They'll be howling again in 2018, most likely.


    A good running game should get you ten Touchdowns a season collectively we had how many from our Running back?


    Nice. You got our red-zone production back to...where it was in 2017. Which I think we all agree wasn't enough.

    Oh wait, we're not even back there yet...we let Paul Richardson walk, too.


    You are way over-valuing Jimmy Graham to this team scoring consistently. Before Graham, we had Lynch and a better offense overall. Hawk45 is correct.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:32 pm
  • adeltaY wrote:I don't get the "how are we going to replace Jimmy's TDs" argument. Yes, he is an elite RZ weapon. No, I don't think we should pay him 8M+ APY. Did the Saints fall off a cliff after Jimmy left? Do the Patriots see a dip in RZ success when Gronk inevitably misses time? A bit, yes, but you can't say it stymies their offense to the point where they can't put up points. There is no excuse (barring serious injuries) for not scoring more points than we did this year, even if we lose Jimmy.

    .


    This is the question of the timeframe. Who cares how we get 10 more touchdowns? Is that gonna win the NFC Wiest? Who knows? The thing about football is winning. If they win with 4 field goals, it is what it took to win. #CAPS FOR JIMMY may win for the short run..and he is a good player, dont get me wrong...but the win is more important than a simple TD concept. Sheesh, sounds like I am in the 5th grade playing baseball dice. Wierd.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:33 pm
  • There's a bit of marketing involved. We went from a Super Bowl appearance with Holmgren to nearly the worst depths to which this team has ever sunk. From a marketing perspective, we needed to get the fans back. Enter the entusiastic, colourful Carroll and the college rah-rah spirit. Of course the team made a big deal about it and promoted wherever possible the changes - they needed to say "this is not the same team that sucked!".

    Also enter Stanford-educated communications major Richard Sherman and his calculated formula of big-mouth shock value, controversy, and sensationalism backed up by solid on-field play that would earn him natinoal brand recognition. Smooth it all down once the brand is established and it's now a marketable commodity. Well played, sir.

    Then we get to a Super Bowl. The media wants to know everything about everybody. The national press wants stories. Everyone wants a new angle, even if it's just a nickname to write a story about. We never had those issues when we were in "Egypt".

    Earl is fiesty, but not much different to the average NFL defensive back. Kam is a hard hitter - does his talking on the field. The Other Guy of the Legion of Boom was always the CB opposite Sherman, whoever that was this week. Not much to write home about, but with Sherman's brand and the Legion of Boom monicker, now you have something marketable.

    Wilson the robot - efficient but emotionless. Marshawn the silent. Bennet the brash. All were characters who didn't really stand out on their own, but they put up the numbers and got the fame that came along with it.

    It's no different from any era of Seahawks football. There have always been personalities. During the Holmgren era there was Hasselbeck the Clown, Walter Jones the rock, Hutchinson the barbarian, Alexander the clean-cut god-boy. Hamlin the wrecking ball. Before them it was The Tez, The Boz, or Zorn and Largent forming the whitebread sandwich.

    The Enforcer. Nuff said.

    Only back in the old days and though the Dark Years we were not good enough to merit national recognition. Kreig never stole the spotlight because there was Elway, and Stabler, and Fouts, and they were all much more colourful.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:46 pm
  • I have a question about kam. What happens if he cant play next season? Is he put on IR again or does he retire? Im pretty sure he would want his money from his new contract.
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:20 pm
  • Seahawkfan80 wrote:Who cares how we get 10 more touchdowns?


    The front office, hopefully.

    Go back and look at our dismal first-half offensive stats and tell me those wins will come without touchdowns. We need double-digit touchdowns ON TOP of Jimmy's in order to be a playoff offense. It would be nice if we could find a more complete player for cheaper, but the character of this draft and your precious Duane Brown have heavily handicapped the team's flexibility in that regard.

    One second you're all complaining that we wouldn't have been a worthy playoff team even if we squeaked in. The next minute you're waving off sixteen touchdowns because some neckbeard on Twitter has convinced you that it's smarter to talk dollar signs and value assessments than, y'know, scoring points.

    Which is it?
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    MontanaHawk05
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Re: End of an Era?
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:23 pm
  • KiwiHawk wrote:It's no different from any era of Seahawks football. There have always been personalities.


    I get what you're saying but I completely disagree, there has NEVER been a group of personalities like this one. I have been a fan and lived in Seattle since Day 1 and the players under Patera, Knox, and even Holmgren would never have been able to be this open in their opinions. It is largely due to the culture of this current administration and ownership.
    In the old days the other O-linemen would have just taken Ifedi out back and beat the crap out of him.
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Re: End of an Era?
Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:57 am
  • RussB wrote:I have a question about kam. What happens if he cant play next season? Is he put on IR again or does he retire? Im pretty sure he would want his money from his new contract.


    See the Kam thread on here. It goes into quite a bit of detail about the options for Kam.
    www.hawk-talk.com

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    Richard Sherman wrote:People look forward to writing us off. Our demise was greatly overstated.
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Re: End of an Era?
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:21 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:Richardson was a response to McDowell's ATV accident. It's hard to criticize them for that.

    Brown was the kind of move that I was critical of at the time, and still am. We lost two high picks for one player who didn't - couldn't - improve the offense all on his own. It was not a good move and could well go a long ways towards a down year.

    Where I'll disagree with Dome was Lacy, Joeckel, and Walsh signings. Those were bad.


    Maybe not just using tunnel vision on that alone. However it is very easy to criticize using our top pick on a red flag player that ended up costing a chain reaction of another signing and more draft losses because the guy took himself out for somewhere between 1 year and forever. There are many great players we passed on to make this move.

    They need to take quality lower risk players in early rounds and save the red flag risks for later rounds IMO.


    McDowell has been a disaster of a pick. But Frank Clark was not.

    Therein lies the dilemma.


    Frank Clark was not a red flag player except for the SJW/PC crowd.
    By that point the Seahawks organization, courtesy of the Percy Harvin experience, got much better at recognizing personality disorders (such as Borderline Personality Disorder), and was able to identify that Clark was the "normal one" in a situation that had all the hallmarks of involving personality disorder issues. So the only actual red flag issues involved the team dealing with PR, never issues with Clark's effort, desire, ability, teammate qualities, and NFL-level smarts.

    This McDowell character, however, is looking pretty sketchy at this point. Pete and the team leaders might still be able to reach him and help him mature if they can get him physically participating in actual football activities.
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    olyfan63
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Re: End of an Era?
Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:03 am
  • I don’t know what SJW/PC means. Frank Clark was arrested for a violent crime. That’s a red flag. The Seahawks went forward anyways.

    This is not an argument of semantics or a debate on his personality. That was an event that caused alarm regarding his future in the NFL.
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