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As of now is RW top 5 QB?

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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:02 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Interesting stuff. He's w/out a doubt one of the best closers we have ever seen. It's a trip how that switch gets turned on in the 2nd half of games, and especially in the 4th quarter.


    Maybe they should do like they did with Bobby Boucher and teach him to visualize 4th quarter / down by 6 during pre game.

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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:03 pm
  • Water sucks, Gatorade tastes better
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:06 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Water sucks, Gatorade tastes better


    LOL....Ya Russell! Recovery water sucks, and leads to more concussions. :lol:
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:06 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:RW was #10 last year. Just behind Drew Brees.

    Is Drew Brees not a top 5 QB?


    Not a comment on Wilson, but no, I don't think Brees is a top 5 QB anymore.

    The Saints have been trending this way for awhile, but last year more than ever they were increasingly investing in and relying on their run game and defense to mask over Bree's declining arm talent.

    He's still top 10 IMO, but he just put up his worst season since 2006, and you can see it on game days too.


    His numbers fell short statistically his rating was higher. Which I suppose depends on how you want to look at it.


    Yep. Definitely. I'd look at it this way:

    Brees had the third lowest air yards per attempt in the league last year (and down by .7 yards from two years ago for him too).

    On average last year he was throwing shorter passes than he's ever thrown in his career, and it's because of those shorter passes that last year he has the highest completion percentage and lowest interception rate of his career also. That's what explains the rise in QB rating.

    Last year Drew Brees basically aged into being the 2017 version of 2012 Alex Smith. ;)

    Edit: forgot the link -- https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#yards
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:51 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Interesting stuff. He's w/out a doubt one of the best closers we have ever seen. It's a trip how that switch gets turned on in the 2nd half of games, and especially in the 4th quarter.

    Yes, it is like we are watching two very different quarterbacks. The Wilson of the 4th quarter is a completely different beast all together.


    Severely hamstrung by the worst, least imaginative OC ever and Matadors Cable ans his scheme put in front of him.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:53 pm
  • How he didn't get hurt last year behind that pathetic joke of a line is still a mystery.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:58 pm
  • Smellyman wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Interesting stuff. He's w/out a doubt one of the best closers we have ever seen. It's a trip how that switch gets turned on in the 2nd half of games, and especially in the 4th quarter.

    Yes, it is like we are watching two very different quarterbacks. The Wilson of the 4th quarter is a completely different beast all together.


    Severely hamstrung by the worst, least imaginative OC ever and Matadors Cable ans his scheme put in front of him.

    I definitely think that is how Russ has gotten the habits he has, however he has some culpability here as well. These issues have to be beaten out of him now. I've noticed that since 2015 his mechanics have really been going down hill, and that he has been playing a much looser game. Even with a clean pocket he is making some egregious errors in his mechanical execution that really need to be addressed. His internal clock also needs to be rectified, he holds the ball longer than any QB in the league no named Watson. This means giving up on some plays, or going for cheeky yards on the ground sooner, rather than later. As I said earlier, my suspicion is that this is why Schottenheimer was brought in. He runs a much tighter ship than Bevell and he is also who Brees credits with cleaning up his game.

    Not a fan of Schottenheimer's scheme's, and playcalling, but the guy may be just what Russ needs at this point in time. A drill sergeant like figure that specializes in coaching up QB's.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:16 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Smellyman wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:Interesting stuff. He's w/out a doubt one of the best closers we have ever seen. It's a trip how that switch gets turned on in the 2nd half of games, and especially in the 4th quarter.

    Yes, it is like we are watching two very different quarterbacks. The Wilson of the 4th quarter is a completely different beast all together.


    Severely hamstrung by the worst, least imaginative OC ever and Matadors Cable ans his scheme put in front of him.

    I definitely think that is how Russ has gotten the habits he has, however he has some culpability here as well. These issues have to be beaten out of him now. I've noticed that since 2015 his mechanics have really been going down hill, and that he has been playing a much looser game. Even with a clean pocket he is making some egregious errors in his mechanical execution that really need to be addressed. His internal clock also needs to be rectified, he holds the ball longer than any QB in the league no named Watson. This means giving up on some plays, or going for cheeky yards on the ground sooner, rather than later. As I said earlier, my suspicion is that this is why Schottenheimer was brought in. He runs a much tighter ship than Bevell and he is also who Brees credits with cleaning up his game.

    Not a fan of Schottenheimer's scheme's, and playcalling, but the guy may be just what Russ needs at this point in time. A drill sergeant like figure that specializes in coaching up QB's.


    To me the biggest mechanical issue is plant foot either not being utilized at all on some throws or in some cases planted in a direction that doesn't exactly coincide with that of the pass. I hate the term happy feet, and in some cases it just doesn't apply like on some of the roll right deep PA passes but that's where I see an obvious consistent mechanical issue. It could be explained by malperception on time to throw and the ability of the OL, it could be lingering effects of his knee injury and playing with a brace, it could be people or himself not being more accountable for that kinda stuff, even a combo of some of those factors.

    But I disagree on the internal clock thing - Bevell did him no favors for large stretches of time, RW was seemingly developed absent a heuristic for check downs, nor did they exist fundamentally on a significant portion of pass plays, nor is his propensity to take off running given the value those plays generate an inherently bad thing.

    It really is hard for me to decouple the Bevell from RW given some of the curious things asked of the offense without a safety net for RW much of the time.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:40 pm
  • original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    MD5eahawks wrote:I really don't get the questioning of Russell Wilson. My god, what does he have to do!?!?


    Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.


    Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

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    OP..Love how you come up with these charts and this one certainly has good flash to it.
    I'm just curious if we could get the number of passes on it?
    I believe the middle will be a pretty low number but should be used much more.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:52 pm
  • Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:RW was #10 last year. Just behind Drew Brees.

    Is Drew Brees not a top 5 QB?


    Not a comment on Wilson, but no, I don't think Brees is a top 5 QB anymore.

    The Saints have been trending this way for awhile, but last year more than ever they were increasingly investing in and relying on their run game and defense to mask over Bree's declining arm talent.

    He's still top 10 IMO, but he just put up his worst season since 2006, and you can see it on game days too.


    His numbers fell short statistically his rating was higher. Which I suppose depends on how you want to look at it.


    Yep. Definitely. I'd look at it this way:

    Brees had the third lowest air yards per attempt in the league last year (and down by .7 yards from two years ago for him too).

    On average last year he was throwing shorter passes than he's ever thrown in his career, and it's because of those shorter passes that last year he has the highest completion percentage and lowest interception rate of his career also. That's what explains the rise in QB rating.

    Last year Drew Brees basically aged into being the 2017 version of 2012 Alex Smith. ;)

    Edit: forgot the link -- https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#yards


    Drew Brees is Alex Smith level now? I don't see Alex Smith slaughtering the Panthers through the air or putting up 24 unanswered against the Vikes in Minny in one half in the playoffs. If he had to shoulder the load, he could. Payton just did a great job taking pressure off him, which shouldn't detract from his greatness. He shouldn't have to throw for 5000 yards to be considered top 5.

    I see the decline in arm strength argument, but Brees still consistently puts the ball in great spots to allow for max YAC, few QBs have his accuracy.

    Also, I'm very confinement fender was trolling haha.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:53 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:
    Spin Doctor wrote:Yes and no. Wilson is an enigma, an oddity at the QB position. This is why he is always bound to get criticism and second guessing thrown his way. Wilson's biggest issue is his lack of consistency. There are points in a game where he will miss the easiest 'gimmie' throws, or not see guys that are running wide open. This happens even if he gets good protection. When he is in these modes he may as well be Tarvaris Jackson.

    The other side of Wilson is the terminator. God smiles from the heavens above, and grants Wilson the power to smite his foes with robotic like proficiency. When he is on he looks like the greatest QB to ever play this game. I would take Wilson when he is in the zone over Brady, Montana, Elway, etc. Nobody can stop the man in this mode, he looks almost as if he is possessed. He will make seemingly impossible throws, and he will look like Barry Sanders juking defenders in the backfield, as he throws a perfect pass with defenders draped over him.

    This can be a bit jarring. In most games he will look like some back-up QB barely clinging to a job until the late third, and fourth Quarter. This, rightfully so leaves many fans confused, and wondering what exactly Russell Wilson is as a player. This may be why we brought in Schottenheimer. Bevell looked like a pushover, and punching bag for the players. People did not respect him or his schemes. Whenever I saw him he gave me the impression of a meek man that was unable to reign in his players. His authority was also greatly diminished by the co-coordinator set up he had with Cable. He was referred to as a passing game coordinator, and Cable as a running game coordinator. Schottenheimer on the other hand is known for being a hard a---.

    This all goes back to Russ. He doesn't play within the confines of the offense. He has always been a QB that made up his own rules as he went. We like to view him as a rank and file guy, but in reality Russ bends every basic rule of playing QB on a regular basis. He is the biggest rogue in the organization on the field. This leads to interesting results that are both good, both bad. He can accomplish this due to his unique talents at QB. Unfortunately, because of this loose style he is lacking in fundamentals as a passer. He does not have the same internal clock that a QB such as Hasselbeck had. It simply does not exist for Wilson because of the miracles he is able to pull off in the backfield.

    This bit is important for QB's becoming a consistent force. Wilson needs to learn when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. He will often forgo checkdown routes if they are available, because he knows he may be able to make something big happen. Unfortunately, Pete and Bevell encouraged this style of play. I like to call it hero ball. This style of play leads to awkward throwing positions, and less than ideal mechanics on a regular basis. This is why we see Russ consistently overthrow his receivers. Even if he gets a clear pocket, Russ tends to move around excessively. This is a recipe for bad throws. He doesn't need to be Brees, but he sure could learn a lot from the way he sets up his blockers, and manipulates the pocket. This will lead to more consistent play from Russ, and ultimately elevate his game to the next level.

    Russ has developed some really bad habits, and I'm starting to think that maybe this is why a guy like Schottenheimer was brought in over some of the other big names on the market. Schotty is a no non-sense, old school style of coordinator. While I don't think much of his offenses and schemes, I do think he will bring a lot of value in taming our wild stallion of a QB. I think he was brought in more for this reason than his merits as a coordinator. He will demand much more out of Wilson than Bevell, and he will not sit back and be an "oh shucks" type of OC like Bevell was. He will demand accountability from his Quarterback.

    So essentially what I said is, yes and no. He is both a top five QB, and not a top five QB.



    Russell Wilson is the only QB that struggles at points during games...fascinating. Brady, Montana, Manning are always perfect all the way through.

    I am not a simplistic Wilson homer blind to criticism. But Wilson's faults are no worse than other QBs faults. Brady struggles when he gets hit/is under pressure. Manning struggled in big time playoff games. I can go on and on. But your points are not rooted in facts. Wilson does play within the confines of the offense. The idea that he runs around every play is simply a stereotype of him than reality. We think he runs around every play because often that ONE time he runs and spins around he scores a TD...ORRR there is a defender already in his face. I will respect Wilson critics more when they support their arguments with film and statistics. Otherwise this is nothing

    Also, Tavaris Jackson was a pathetic comparison. The only thing they have in common is the box they might check off on the Census

    You're getting the wrong idea here. Wilson is a good QB, in fact when he is in his zone there is no other QB I would rather have on my team. That being said, Wilson is a QB that will go three whole quarters without doing anything on a regular basis.

    For example if you look at his first half stats vs his second half stats they tell a very different story: http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson ... ionalstats

    Wilson has a 78 rating in the first half and only completes 59 percent of his passes. He also only averages 6.1 yards per completion here while throwing for only 8 TD's and 6 interceptions. His passing through the first three quarters of last season looked very mediocre when you look at the charts by quarter. The fourth quarter however is a different story entirely. In the 4th Quarter Wilson completes close to 70 percent of his passes, threw for 19 touchdowns, which is more than in his entire three quarters combined, and only threw 1 interception.... He does all of this while averaging 9.4 yards in the air.

    This is what most people are confused about. The story of four quarters -- Wilson is utterly mediocre if we look at his first 3 Quarters. Other QB's do not have that kind of differential in their play:

    http://www.nfl.com/player/tombrady/2504 ... ionalstats - averages a 100 QB rating in each quarter with similar yards per completion, and completion percentage. The big outlier here is the TD numbers in the second quarter, which is 16 -- much more than any of his other quarters.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/carsonwentz/2 ... ionalstats - In all four quarters he is pretty consistent, the interceptions are all evenly spread, and the rating never dips below 90 except for when he is within 7 points.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/250 ... ionalstats - First quarter is dismal, but he is pretty consistent from then on going forward.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/philiprivers/ ... ionalstats - First quarter he does nothing, but then proceeds to have a fairly consistent three quarters

    http://www.nfl.com/player/matthewstaffo ... ionalstats - A QB that some may call streaky. He never has a QB rating dip below 89, interception totals are spread out evenly between first and second half, numbers are pretty consistent.

    http://www.nfl.com/player/benroethlisbe ... ionalstats - Okay first quarter, most of his interceptions happen here, but he goes on to be consistent throughout the entire game.

    You can get where I'm going here. Most of these QB's are pretty consistent throughout the game. Russell Wilson on the other hand doesn't really get going here until the third quarter, and even his third quarter statistics are not that great. His fourth quarter statistics on the other hand are on the next level. In all of the other Quarters he struggles to even complete 60 percent of his passes, in the fourth quarter he completes a whopping 67 percent at 9.7 yards per clip. He only throws for 1 interception here, and he throws for more TDs than all of his other quarters combined. In fact, he is only 300 yards away from throwing for more YARDS in the fourth quarter than he does in all of his other quarters combined.

    This right here is what I'm talking about.. Wilson is a completely different animal in the fourth quarter. Even his third quarter is not that special. This goes to show you what his potential is and how he is not quite living up to it. When I was looking at these stats it blew my mind. No other QB performed like this in the fourth quarter, those numbers were godlike, it especially become perplexing when we compared it to his other three quarters.

    Looking at this stats really confirmed what I saw in game, Wilson really takes longer than most QB's to ramp up.

    Another interesting tidbit is that Wilson held the ball for the second longest amount of time out of any QB last season: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw

    The longest being Watson, whom is a rookie, and has a much smaller sample size due to his injury.

    Wilson is an oddity when you pry deeper in to statistics. It goes into what I was saying about being inconstant. Yes, every QB has had their bad days, and stretches, but what we can surmise from the numbers is that he has long stretches in games where he isn't very effective. I chock it down to not playing disciplined football. On the flipside of things, he also has some of the best fourth quarter stats I have ever seen. He has the ability to be one of the greatest, it is just that he is not living up to his potential. In the fourth quarter he enters another zone. All of the sudden it is like he gets hyper awareness. He starts stepping up in the pocket more, gets rid of the ball quicker, and navigates the pocket better. It is like we see two different quarterbacks playing during every game.


    This analysis is based on one year. His career numbers don't line up with the first and fourth quarter disparity of this year.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:50 pm
  • I think we will see many more timing routes and he will have a hot read, this means he has to get the ball out on time to the right read. Schotty will drill that into them. This should help the O line as well and he will scramble only on breakdowns or designed plays. At least that's what I hope happens, my fear is Pete gets involved and funnels Schotty to much to what he wants.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:17 pm
  • adeltaY wrote:Drew Brees is Alex Smith level now? I don't see Alex Smith slaughtering the Panthers through the air or putting up 24 unanswered against the Vikes in Minny in one half in the playoffs. If he had to shoulder the load, he could. Payton just did a great job taking pressure off him, which shouldn't detract from his greatness. He shouldn't have to throw for 5000 yards to be considered top 5.

    I see the decline in arm strength argument, but Brees still consistently puts the ball in great spots to allow for max YAC, few QBs have his accuracy.

    Also, I'm very confinement fender was trolling haha.


    Well, I mean, I'm not really in the habit of defending Alex Smith (seriously and sincerely), but 25% of his games last year were easily better than Brees' best game last year.

    And we totally agree that Payton did a really good job of taking pressure off him last year.

    Maybe we just disagree with *why* Payton did this? In Brees last year I saw the same decline in arm strength that you saw, but also saw a guy who was missing more on intermediate and deep throws that he used to hit. I see a guy who spent his career being able to hit all the throws who now needs an offense to be tailored around him a little bit more in order to really excel.

    I think Brees is worth his new contract and is still a good player, I just don't think he's a top 5 QB anymore, and that the band has broken up on the old Rodgers/Brady/Brees trio that we've all talked about for so long. That doesn't make him chopped meat or anything, or mean that I think he's looking like Peyton in '15 or anything.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:49 pm
  • Popeyejones wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Drew Brees is Alex Smith level now? I don't see Alex Smith slaughtering the Panthers through the air or putting up 24 unanswered against the Vikes in Minny in one half in the playoffs. If he had to shoulder the load, he could. Payton just did a great job taking pressure off him, which shouldn't detract from his greatness. He shouldn't have to throw for 5000 yards to be considered top 5.

    I see the decline in arm strength argument, but Brees still consistently puts the ball in great spots to allow for max YAC, few QBs have his accuracy.

    Also, I'm very confinement fender was trolling haha.


    Well, I mean, I'm not really in the habit of defending Alex Smith (seriously and sincerely), but 25% of his games last year were easily better than Brees' best game last year.

    And we totally agree that Payton did a really good job of taking pressure off him last year.

    Maybe we just disagree with *why* Payton did this? In Brees last year I saw the same decline in arm strength that you saw, but also saw a guy who was missing more on intermediate and deep throws that he used to hit. I see a guy who spent his career being able to hit all the throws who now needs an offense to be tailored around him a little bit more in order to really excel.

    I think Brees is worth his new contract and is still a good player, I just don't think he's a top 5 QB anymore, and that the band has broken up on the old Rodgers/Brady/Brees trio that we've all talked about for so long. That doesn't make him chopped meat or anything, or mean that I think he's looking like Peyton in '15 or anything.


    Good call pops. To be fair, I traded for Brees in fantasy this year and he was pretty disappointed. I chalked it up to Ingram and AK41 vulturing TDs, but you're correct that he wasn't dominating games like years past. Agree with the decline of arm strength at the end of 2016 as well. I think he's still top 5 because there aren't many QBs I'd trust to carry an offense, which I still believe Brees can. I'd only put Brady and Rodgers above him. Rivers and Ben around the same level, but I lean Brees above them. I want to see two more years of elite play from Wentz to put him up in the top 5.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:02 pm
  • ^^^^ Good point too on your end: I get a little less comfortable confidently saying he's not top 5 when I gotta think about listing out the next three who aren't him. :lol: :lol:

    So I guess what it is for me is that Tier 1 used to be three QBs, and now Tier 1 is two QBs, if that makes sense (he's downt to Tier 2 but still in the mix in a top 5 ranking). That's probably much closer to the point that you've been arguing than the point I've been arguing, and if so, yeah, I think you're probably right. :2thumbs:
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:06 pm
  • Don't forget Tier 0 for Jimmy Gsus! :mrgreen:
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:17 pm
  • IndyHawk wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    MD5eahawks wrote:I really don't get the questioning of Russell Wilson. My god, what does he have to do!?!?


    Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.


    Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

    Image

    OP..Love how you come up with these charts and this one certainly has good flash to it.
    I'm just curious if we could get the number of passes on it?
    I believe the middle will be a pretty low number but should be used much more.

    Thank you Indy.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:46 pm
  • IndyHawk wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    MD5eahawks wrote:I really don't get the questioning of Russell Wilson. My god, what does he have to do!?!?


    Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.


    Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

    Image

    OP..Love how you come up with these charts and this one certainly has good flash to it.
    I'm just curious if we could get the number of passes on it?
    I believe the middle will be a pretty low number but should be used much more.


    Yep, chart is totally meaningless without number of attempts on it.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:14 pm
  • Spin Doctor wrote:Yes and no. Wilson is an enigma, an oddity at the QB position. This is why he is always bound to get criticism and second guessing thrown his way. Wilson's biggest issue is his lack of consistency. There are points in a game where he will miss the easiest 'gimmie' throws, or not see guys that are running wide open. This happens even if he gets good protection. When he is in these modes he may as well be Tarvaris Jackson.

    The other side of Wilson is the terminator. God smiles from the heavens above, and grants Wilson the power to smite his foes with robotic like proficiency. When he is on he looks like the greatest QB to ever play this game. I would take Wilson when he is in the zone over Brady, Montana, Elway, etc. Nobody can stop the man in this mode, he looks almost as if he is possessed. He will make seemingly impossible throws, and he will look like Barry Sanders juking defenders in the backfield, as he throws a perfect pass with defenders draped over him.

    This can be a bit jarring. In most games he will look like some back-up QB barely clinging to a job until the late third, and fourth Quarter. This, rightfully so leaves many fans confused, and wondering what exactly Russell Wilson is as a player. This may be why we brought in Schottenheimer. Bevell looked like a pushover, and punching bag for the players. People did not respect him or his schemes. Whenever I saw him he gave me the impression of a meek man that was unable to reign in his players. His authority was also greatly diminished by the co-coordinator set up he had with Cable. He was referred to as a passing game coordinator, and Cable as a running game coordinator. Schottenheimer on the other hand is known for being a hard a---.

    This all goes back to Russ. He doesn't play within the confines of the offense. He has always been a QB that made up his own rules as he went. We like to view him as a rank and file guy, but in reality Russ bends every basic rule of playing QB on a regular basis. He is the biggest rogue in the organization on the field. This leads to interesting results that are both good, both bad. He can accomplish this due to his unique talents at QB. Unfortunately, because of this loose style he is lacking in fundamentals as a passer. He does not have the same internal clock that a QB such as Hasselbeck had. It simply does not exist for Wilson because of the miracles he is able to pull off in the backfield.

    This bit is important for QB's becoming a consistent force. Wilson needs to learn when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. He will often forgo checkdown routes if they are available, because he knows he may be able to make something big happen. Unfortunately, Pete and Bevell encouraged this style of play. I like to call it hero ball. This style of play leads to awkward throwing positions, and less than ideal mechanics on a regular basis. This is why we see Russ consistently overthrow his receivers. Even if he gets a clear pocket, Russ tends to move around excessively. This is a recipe for bad throws. He doesn't need to be Brees, but he sure could learn a lot from the way he sets up his blockers, and manipulates the pocket. This will lead to more consistent play from Russ, and ultimately elevate his game to the next level.

    Russ has developed some really bad habits, and I'm starting to think that maybe this is why a guy like Schottenheimer was brought in over some of the other big names on the market. Schotty is a no non-sense, old school style of coordinator. While I don't think much of his offenses and schemes, I do think he will bring a lot of value in taming our wild stallion of a QB. I think he was brought in more for this reason than his merits as a coordinator. He will demand much more out of Wilson than Bevell, and he will not sit back and be an "oh shucks" type of OC like Bevell was. He will demand accountability from his Quarterback.

    So essentially what I said is, yes and no. He is both a top five QB, and not a top five QB.


    Good post.

    There's also the part that Wilson could often manipulate an over aggressive outside pass rush like a proper trap block exploits an aggressive DLine in the run game.

    Merely keeping Wilson in the pocket typically had better results for defenses.

    When defensive lines are coached to keep a QB in the pocket over pressure you definitely have an anomaly QB.

    Even guys like Cam, RG3, Kap were more like a traditional pocket passer than Wilson in that regard.

    Also, if one watches games carefully and without a biased eye, Wilson isn't/wasn't a lot better than Kap or Cam in going through progressions from the pocket.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:25 pm
  • Wilson isn't the best QB in the league but he's better than most . Wilson isn't the problem he lead the league in TD's at the QB position . He had no real help other than Doug and Jimmy and neither of them are the best in the league at there positions either. Now take a look at the teams that did well in the playoffs at there skill positions on offense and it's crystal clear Seattle just didn't matchup at all . It's very clear what has to happen Seattle needs to find Wilson better more consistent weapons if they hope to compete in the NFC West. Even with all that they were right there to the end if not for the absurd down right criminal amount of penalty's we make the playoffs. All that said it was time to clean house.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:59 pm
  • Leading in TD passes means nothing to me..
    Had we had a running game..You figure just under half of those passes turn into
    running TD's and that leaves him about 18-20 TD passes at best and then we
    wouldn't be having these silly comments on how great he did when it is just not
    true..Take away the 4th qtr when it is easier to pile stats with no huddle/shotgun
    against soft zone D..What did he really do?
    That said he is a durable player who wants to win bad so I would not want anyone
    else in the 4th but in the 1st and 2nd Qtr I could go with a few if I'm using the last
    two seasons..
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:22 am
  • The Seahawks appear to be at an inflection point in the Pete Carroll era after missing the playoffs, and they face many difficult personnel decisions in the offseason. However, they still have a top-flight franchise quarterback in place with Wilson, which will keep the margin for error wider than that of most organizations. Wilson is coming off one of his best seasons and had to shoulder an inordinate amount of the load for an offense that couldn't pass-protect or run the ball with routine success. His chaotic and improvisational style of play can, at times, create issues for the scoring attack, but Wilson remains one of the league's best passers. He finished with a top-three passer rating on tight-window throws for the second straight year, following up his 83.9 in 2016 with a 74.4 this past season.

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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:15 am
  • IndyHawk wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    MD5eahawks wrote:I really don't get the questioning of Russell Wilson. My god, what does he have to do!?!?


    Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.


    Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

    Image

    OP..Love how you come up with these charts and this one certainly has good flash to it.
    I'm just curious if we could get the number of passes on it?
    I believe the middle will be a pretty low number but should be used much more.


    Thank you sir.

    Give me 10 minutes and I will add up the routes in the middle of the field.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:46 am
  • hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    MD5eahawks wrote:I really don't get the questioning of Russell Wilson. My god, what does he have to do!?!?


    Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.


    Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

    Image


    Watch the all 22 tape. There have consistently been guys open in the middle the last two two years, but the ball rarely goes to that part of the field. Cherry picking stats doesn’t change what the tape clearly shows.


    You have officially been proven wrong (again).

    Image

    Incase you cannot understand the numbers I shall confirm -

    To the left hand side between the LOS and 10 yards forward - 69 completions
    To the middle between the LOS and 10 yards forward - 62 completions
    To the right hand side between the LOS and 10 yards forward - 79 completions

    To the left hand side, between 10 and 20 yards of the LOS - 25 completions
    To the middle, between 10 and 20 yards of the LOS - 22 completions
    To the right hand side, between 10 and 20 yards of the LOS - 26 completions

    To the left hand side, 21 yards or more from the LOS - 15 completions
    To the middle, 21 yards or more from the LOS - 3 completions
    To the right hand side, 21 yards or more from the LOS - 6 completions

    So quite clearly, when you say "the ball rarely goes to that part of the field" has been proven to be total nonsense.

    Also, I am more than happy to continue making your posts look stupid and factually incorrect, just carry on as you are.


    *microphone drops on the floor*
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:46 am
  • original poster wrote:
    IndyHawk wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.


    Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

    Image

    OP..Love how you come up with these charts and this one certainly has good flash to it.
    I'm just curious if we could get the number of passes on it?
    I believe the middle will be a pretty low number but should be used much more.


    Thank you sir.

    Give me 10 minutes and I will add up the routes in the middle of the field.


    An underused strength in QB rating? Add it to the laundry list of reasons for a new OC. :179419:
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:54 am
  • Also, just incase you try and argue there were lots of incomplete passes in the middle of the field, there weren't.

    7 incompletions 21 yards or more from the LOS in the middle
    4 incompletions 10 to 20 yards from the LOS in the middle
    4 incompletions from the LOS to 10 yards out in the middle
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:05 am
  • original poster wrote:Also, just incase you try and argue there were lots of incomplete passes in the middle of the field, there weren't.

    7 incompletions 21 yards or more from the LOS in the middle
    4 incompletions 10 to 20 yards from the LOS in the middle
    4 incompletions from the LOS to 10 yards out in the middle


    Math . . . one of nature's most beautiful facts. :D
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:21 am
  • And how many guys are forced to throw the ball away compared to Russ? He not only is running around because of a pathetic O Line, but it's not like our WR's get open all the time. And when you're about to get crushed, you gotta' throw it away. His completion percentage could be a hell of a lot higher w/out a doubt. As far as the passes over the middle, just someone who doesn't like the guy making crap up.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:49 am
  • Here's some more passer rating stats for Russ.

    The thing that his game would benefit most from is his efficiency on 3rd down. It's the only area where he is below league average.

    Lets hope teams keep blitzing on him, though. He absolutely excels.

    Image

    Image

    Image

    Image
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:22 am
  • One thing that gets forgotten is the unknown factor of impact that Cable, Bevell, and an extremely below average o-line had on the perception of his performance.

    I am really looking forward to seeing how a new coaching staff changes (or not) Russ and the offense. We will at least be able to have a comparison in line for what was and what is.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:21 am
  • original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    Having the ability to throw consistently to the middle of the field would be a great start. Moving up in the pocket and throwing the ball would be cool to.


    Yeah he absolutely sucks throwing to the middle of the field... :roll:

    Image


    Watch the all 22 tape. There have consistently been guys open in the middle the last two two years, but the ball rarely goes to that part of the field. Cherry picking stats doesn’t change what the tape clearly shows.


    You have officially been proven wrong (again).

    Image

    Incase you cannot understand the numbers I shall confirm -

    To the left hand side between the LOS and 10 yards forward - 69 completions
    To the middle between the LOS and 10 yards forward - 62 completions
    To the right hand side between the LOS and 10 yards forward - 79 completions

    To the left hand side, between 10 and 20 yards of the LOS - 25 completions
    To the middle, between 10 and 20 yards of the LOS - 22 completions
    To the right hand side, between 10 and 20 yards of the LOS - 26 completions

    To the left hand side, 21 yards or more from the LOS - 15 completions
    To the middle, 21 yards or more from the LOS - 3 completions
    To the right hand side, 21 yards or more from the LOS - 6 completions

    So quite clearly, when you say "the ball rarely goes to that part of the field" has been proven to be total nonsense.

    Also, I am more than happy to continue making your posts look stupid and factually incorrect, just carry on as you are.


    *microphone drops on the floor*


    Thanks for proving my point! 87 out of 298 passed is not a good ratio at all. Way under utilizing a very productive part of the field.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:27 am
  • What is a good ratio Hawkman?
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:41 am
  • original poster wrote:What is a good ratio Hawkman?


    Well over 1/3
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:46 am
  • hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:What is a good ratio Hawkman?


    Well over 1/3


    That's quite vague.

    What do you have to back this up?
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:03 am
  • original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:What is a good ratio Hawkman?


    Well over 1/3


    That's quite vague.

    What do you have to back this up?


    Thought that was pretty basic common knowledge. Do your little chart on guys like Brady, Rivers, Big Ben, Rogers, or any of the other top guys and you will see the difference.

    And I will even be grown up enough and not brag how I proved you wrong like you did to me when you thought (falsely) you made a point.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:07 am
  • He has nothing to back it up. Just blind hatred for Russ. :roll:
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:10 am
  • hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:What is a good ratio Hawkman?


    Well over 1/3


    That's quite vague.

    What do you have to back this up?


    Thought that was pretty basic common knowledge. Do your little chart on guys like Brady, Rivers, Big Ben, Rogers, or any of the other top guys and you will see the difference.

    And I will even be grown up enough and not brag how I proved you wrong like you did to me when you thought (falsely) you made a point.


    Brady - EDIT 101, or 26.2% of all his completions.
    Big Ben - 104, or 28.8% of all his completions.

    Well over a third you say?
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:29 am
  • original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    Well over 1/3


    That's quite vague.

    What do you have to back this up?


    Thought that was pretty basic common knowledge. Do your little chart on guys like Brady, Rivers, Big Ben, Rogers, or any of the other top guys and you will see the difference.

    And I will even be grown up enough and not brag how I proved you wrong like you did to me when you thought (falsely) you made a point.


    Brady - EDIT 101 for Brady, or 26.2% of all his passes.

    Well over a third you say?


    Where are you getting this? In 2017 Brady completed 135 passes to the middle of the field beyond the los. Yes well over 1/3. I get you wanting to prove a point, but be honest.

    For anyone else that wants to count them up here you go https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/pla ... 156/season
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:34 am
  • Even if it is 135 (and I don't dispute it isn't, it may well be), that is 35% so my point remains.

    "Well over a third" is once again, inaccurate.

    I'm not going to carry on feeding your posts, though.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:41 am
  • original poster wrote:Even if it is 135 (and I don't dispute it isn't, it may well be), that is 35% so my point remains.

    "Well over a third" is once again, inaccurate.

    I'm not going to carry on feeding your posts, though.


    Oh I see how you did that edit after you had 54 completions for Brady :roll: Your not feeding my posts, but when you continue to post things so factually wrong I will point it out. Oh and it is weak sauce to edit after the fact so you don’t look as wrong.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:49 am
  • hawkman wrote:
    original poster wrote:Even if it is 135 (and I don't dispute it isn't, it may well be), that is 35% so my point remains.

    "Well over a third" is once again, inaccurate.

    I'm not going to carry on feeding your posts, though.


    Oh I see how you did that edit after you had 54 completions for Brady :roll: Your not feeding my posts, but when you continue to post things so factually wrong I will point it out. Oh and it is weak sauce to edit after the fact so you don’t look as wrong.


    I even wrote 'edit' incase anyone saw my original numbers.

    As a mod I can edit without it showing up on the board, hence writing the very word into the post to show I wasn't trying to 'hide' anything.

    This is ridiculous, you seem hell bent on proving RW isn't who many on here think he is and that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

    Let's hope Russ is moved and we can get a QB like Hass in.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:26 am
  • Hawkman is reaching HARD to justify his dislike of Russ.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:47 am
  • adeltaY wrote:Hawkman is reaching HARD to justify his dislike of Russ.


    I don’t dislike him. I have always said he does some things well. Problem is he has to many holes in his game to consider him elite. Some on here can’t handle hearing any negatives when it comes to RW. And you say I’m trying hard? That last poster completely fabricated stats to try to make things look better.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:53 am
  • hawkman wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Hawkman is reaching HARD to justify his dislike of Russ.


    I don’t dislike him. I have always said he does some things well. Problem is he has to many holes in his game to consider him elite. Some on here can’t handle hearing any negatives when it comes to RW. And you say I’m trying hard? That last poster completely fabricated stats to try to make things look better.


    We are on a Hawks forum. Extreme Homers is to be expected. I agree with you. Not a fan of Wilson. He's a great athlete, incredible person etc. etc. Just not a top 5 QB in today's NFL.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:53 pm
  • RCATES wrote:
    hawkman wrote:
    adeltaY wrote:Hawkman is reaching HARD to justify his dislike of Russ.


    I don’t dislike him. I have always said he does some things well. Problem is he has to many holes in his game to consider him elite. Some on here can’t handle hearing any negatives when it comes to RW. And you say I’m trying hard? That last poster completely fabricated stats to try to make things look better.


    We are on a Hawks forum. Extreme Homers is to be expected. I agree with you. Not a fan of Wilson. He's a great athlete, incredible person etc. etc. Just not a top 5 QB in today's NFL.


    That’s not how this works..for either of you quite frankly.

    Your logic is already twisted and steeped in bias. Your reasoning is, all those who defend Russell Wilson are hardcore homers. If I were to say Tom Brady is overrated, I may truly believe that. But anyone who disagrees with me is not simply a “homer”

    Most of you make wildly absurd claims with no comparative analysis or research. The most obvious question is who are the 5 Qbs better than Russell Wilson? Why? What have you seen on tape for example to justify that?? Have you sat down and compared film? If so can you upload it?

    Others are at least trying to provide numbers, stats, etc to support their argument. And even beyond that, in a previous thread I even provided film comparisons to show the nitpicking of Russ is silly and rooted in a deep bias against him. Face it, some of you Russ critics are not interested in truth. There’s not a shred of evidence that can be provided to you that would change your mind
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:43 pm
  • Good lord, some people just can't admit they're wrong.

    And no, I'm not talking about original poster.
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:01 pm
  • JGfromtheNW wrote:Good lord, some people just can't admit they're wrong.

    And no, I'm not talking about original poster.


    Maybe you would like to actually add to the thread by pointing out how some are wrong with facts?
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB as of now?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:04 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:Typical to have someone make a claim that just flat out isn't true. Yeah, he can't pass the ball in the pocket or over the middle. Beyond ridiculous claim. He can do anything that ANY QB in the league can do. Claiming he can't pass over the middle, or in the pocket, or he's too short etc. Change the damn record :roll:


    Ya it always makes me laugh when fans from other teams, heck even our own, claim Wilson cant throw from the pocket or middle of the field even though his numbers in those areas are Excellent
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:20 pm
  • original poster wrote:Here's some more passer rating stats for Russ.

    The thing that his game would benefit most from is his efficiency on 3rd down. It's the only area where he is below league average.

    Lets hope teams keep blitzing on him, though. He absolutely excels.

    Image

    Image

    Image

    Image


    His 3rd down passer rating is probably bad because he SEEMINGLY is always throwing it on 3rd and Long. I dont know how many times our offense does nothing first 2 downs or commits a stupid penalty to make it 3rd and L
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Re: As of now is RW top 5 QB?
Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:02 pm
  • Lol I'm a homer despite plenty of criticism of the team and a pretty bleak outlook on next season. Riiiiight
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