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MB on Pete Carroll

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:52 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:Here were some quality players on this team:

    Lynch - Carroll traded for Lynch
    Thomas - Carroll drafted him
    Sherman - Carroll drafted him
    Chancellor - Carroll drafted him
    Wilson - Carroll drafted him
    Wagner - Carroll drafted him

    At least 4 of the above were borderline HOF players, that does not include guys like Graham or Bennett.

    How much credit do you feel is appropriate for a coach that underachieved with that much talent?


    And Carroll built that historically good defense, designed it, picked every player...

    That was his team from top to bottom, that went to back to back SB's.

    Man, some of you are acting like he's Barry Switzer and just rode the existing talent, team, system to wins! Like he came out of nowhere and just auto-piloted it to victories. :34853_doh:

    So how much credit does he get? All of it. And as the top personnel guy, and the head coach, he gets all the blame for their failures too. I'm sure he'd be the first one to take all that blame.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:59 pm
  • twisted_steel2 wrote:
    NJlargent wrote:Twisted is correct. Sherman earned the right to criticize (even excessively) the team. He was far more influential in that super bowl ring than Pete Carroll ever was. He was the face of those SB teams (along with Lynch). It’s amazing we find losing Sherman acceptable and get excited over shottenheimer. Good lord.


    You literally think Sherman deserves more credit in earning the SB victory than Carroll?

    And therefore b/c of that, he gets the right to excessively criticize the team and coaches publicly, like on the sidelines and to the press?

    :Dunno: Okey dokey.


    I do. I think that team carried Carroll. There is certainly objective evidence supporting it, such as an underachieving team the past few seasons. Plus Sherman bailed him with the tip because he was flat outcoached by Harbaugh that game. If Carroll was an all world coach, the regression the past 3 years would have halted. A good coach calls timeout and turns around momentum.

    I don’t think the shenanigans on the sideline were earned or appropriate. Sherman should have kept criticism off the field.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:06 pm
  • NJlargent wrote:
    twisted_steel2 wrote:
    NJlargent wrote:Twisted is correct. Sherman earned the right to criticize (even excessively) the team. He was far more influential in that super bowl ring than Pete Carroll ever was. He was the face of those SB teams (along with Lynch). It’s amazing we find losing Sherman acceptable and get excited over shottenheimer. Good lord.


    You literally think Sherman deserves more credit in earning the SB victory than Carroll?

    And therefore b/c of that, he gets the right to excessively criticize the team and coaches publicly, like on the sidelines and to the press?

    :Dunno: Okey dokey.


    I do. I think that team carried Carroll. There is certainly objective evidence supporting it, such as an underachieving team the past few seasons. Plus Sherman bailed him with the tip because he was flat outcoached by Harbaugh that game. If Carroll was an all world coach, the regression the past 3 years would have halted. A good coach calls timeout and turns around momentum.


    Who built that team?

    Who drafted Sherman?

    Who coached Sherman?

    Who designed that defense Sherman was in?

    Who made sure Sherman was prepared to be in that position for the tip?

    Sherman was/is a great player, but he was only part of the system that made that team so special. And you're not acknowledging the person who built and designed the system.

    Look, Carroll has flaws, but I think some people are looking, concentrating, and just obsessing over them so freakin' hard, they are losing track of the big picture. Of how much the Caroll era Seahawks has achieved.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:06 pm
  • He built fantastically talented team that was tremendous for 2 years but then barely was able to get to the wildcard for 3.

    Makes my point. He is great at finding greatness, developing it, honing it. Not that great at using it once he has it built.

    Lots of promise, some amazing flashes of greatness on the teams - but no consistency.

    What Carroll does well, is put great players in a position to make plays. And he absolutely makes some players great (Browner is a good example). But with that many great players, he underachieves.

    I am not saying he needs SB wins to validate what he does. But for H sake, a team with that many great players should not get absolutely run out of the building in every game past the wildcard.

    His great players are slowly vanishing off the roster and he is simply not a great gameday coach. He needs a stronger roster and he will not have one.

    He does less with more. But he has had a lot more 'more' on his roster to compensate for it. Now he won't.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:17 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    TwistedHusky wrote:Here were some quality players on this team:

    Lynch
    Thomas
    Sherman
    Chancellor
    Wilson
    Wagner

    At least 4 of the above were borderline HOF players, that does not include guys like Graham or Bennett.

    How much credit do you feel is appropriate for a coach that underachieved with that much talent?



    He underachieved?

    in comparison to one other program...

    get a grip... the long winding diatribes aren't as interesting when they don't have substance


    Why thank you! ;)
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:40 pm
  • sc85sis wrote:Sherm and MB are two of the players who’ve taken the most (potentially undue) advantage of Pete being willing to let guys be themselves, yet they are now criticizing him. To me that says far more about them than it does about Pete.

    Hopefully some day they’ll look back and realize just how lucky they were to play for a coach who truly gives a d*** about his players.


    ^^^ Well done.

    And Pete has refrained from giving into temptation and saying anything that could remotely be construed as negative about departing players on their way out.

    Pete runs a loose ship with respect to personalities. There are pluses and minuses, mostly pluses from this fan's perspective. But the way he has handled himself through the MB and Sherman swipes - though that kind of thing has to irk him - has done nothing but increase my respect for the guy. And the way he cut loose his coordinators after a lackluster season where we spent $$$ on the OL has definitely put him on the sunny side of me.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:54 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:He underachieved?

    in comparison to one other program...



    He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:15 pm
  • Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

    Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

    Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?

    So if I understand if he makes the playoffs in a stronger conference than the AFC but fails to win a SB every year he does he's under achieving? Sure, Whatever?
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:21 pm
  • Compared to the quality of the roster he had and the success half the coaches in the league would have had with it.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:23 pm
  • Your opinion, however you are on record of thinking he sucks.

    Name those coaches!
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:32 pm
  • Where have I gone on record saying he sucks?

    I said he underachieves vs the quality of his talent, which he has done since USC. But he does tend to have more talent, which is clearly an asset he brings to the table to compensate.

    I do think his philosophy and tendency to focus on one strategy regardless of the roster, is old and tired. I think he is nowhere near as good as he used to be. But I don't think he sucks.

    I think he has very specific weaknesses. He has other strengths that hopefully compensate for it. But most of those strengths involve developing a strong roster and that roster is pretty thin right now. Lately he has not been very good at the very things he is supposed to be good at.

    Which means he is not bringing much to the table lately, and that coincides with the garbage football we were subjected to for the past 2 years.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:02 pm
  • There is also the view that many players (coaches) become "over rated" because of what Pete creates for them to become successful.

    I continue to suspect Pete and John fell at least a year behind in culling the roster. Maybe two.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:17 pm
  • jammerhawk wrote:Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

    Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

    Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?


    Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:18 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

    Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

    Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?


    Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.


    How is it underachieving when Pete started from scratch, while the other coaches were already well established? Blind stats don't mean anything
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:55 pm
  • You guys reminded me of how fans drove Bill Walsh out of town, claiming he was destroying the team by trading away stars like Joe Montana, and how stars from Montana down stopped listening to Walsh.

    And of course Walsh under achieved with all those stars.




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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:10 pm
  • Did the team underachieve last year? Not sure because the team was 3 missed field goals from being an 11 win team. So, I guess our kicker underachieve? Or was he a head case who simply lost it after the playoff miss/debacle?

    The two biggest issues for the past 2-3 years is the Oline. Did they underachieve or was it poor drafting or poor coaching. If the OLine performs well in 2018 with one major change, DJ Fluker, then...is it underachieving or poor coaching?

    And, what about the run game? Did they underachieve or was it injuries? We ssw a small sample size of what Chris Carsen and CJ Prosise are capable of doing, so if they are healthy and the run emerges...

    And, did the defense underachieve for the past years? In 2016 and 2017, ET, Kam, KJ, Avril, MB, Sherm, etc., missed significant PT. So was it underachieve or did injuries to All Pro/Pro Bowl players have anything to do with it?

    I'll agree, to a certain point about questionable drafts, questionable coaching, hanging onto players too long, but to say underachieve while not mentioning these other obvious issues that brought the team to what they are now....
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:43 pm
  • Fade wrote:--> Pete's lack of accountability with the coaching staff costing the team games. <--

    90% of the teams problems, and a lot of Ls stem from this over the years. Not just 1 game.

    It's not just about that 1 game, or that 1 play, but MULTIPLE GAMES. Which led to this behavior and the players acting out. Flipping birds, Reading books in meeting rooms, getting in multiple shouting matches with coaches, calling out coaches, shoving coaches, and who knows what else. (I may have forgotten some.)

    It's hard to trust coaches when you know they constantly screw it up, and will screw it up again.

    Pete fired, or let go damn near most of his coaching staff this off-season. And with good reason he had to. He couldn't just get rid of a couple of star players or he would of had a mutiny on his hands.

    It was turning into a mutiny pretty much last year. Pete is trying to reel things back in, we'll see how it goes.

    The Seahawks objectively had one of the worst coaching staffs in the league last year. They were getting out schemed & coached nearly every week. The players aren't stupid they knew it too. Losing Quinn & Norton took a toll on the Defense, and Cable+Bevell is about as bad as it can get for any Offense.

    It will be better next year, but I am unsure of by how much.

    I am not a fan of the Air Coryell that Schotty brings with him. Russ is built for the WCO, either Shanny's, or Andy Reed's variation, that is RW's fit. Russ is talented so he can make any system work, but what I don't understand is why Pete likes to make it harder on his players, instead of easier?

    Norton is a wild card, I could see it working, he plays the bad cop, Pete plays the good cop. It seemed though down in OAK he was over-matched by opposing OCs so we'll see.

    Solari is just a nice solid O-Line coach and a definite upgrade over Cable.

    If they still can't run the ball, and the offense is a mess, I think Pete is done here. I am honestly not concerned with W-L record in 2018. I just want to see significant progress running the football. He has had 3 yrs to build a running game, and it just keeps getting worse. They couldn't run the ball before Lynch showed up, and they can't run the ball after Lynch left.

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:24 pm
  • SoulfishHawk wrote:2017 Draft is looking pretty good. Minus the Malik debacle.


    Scot was hired as a consultant after his dismissel from Washington..............................
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:41 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:
    SoulfishHawk wrote:2017 Draft is looking pretty good. Minus the Malik debacle.


    Scot was hired as a consultant after his dismissel from Washington..............................


    Lol, was he? I wasn't aware. Makes it all that much more obvious.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:22 pm
  • The NFL is a cruel league. Yesterdays heroes are today's scapegoats, yesterdays revelry is today's existential dread. The brightest of stars burn brightly, and fade away shortly thereafter --- vilified by the same fan base that once worshiped them. The Carroll era is a most interesting case of this phenomenon. He built a historically great team, and had a defense that was number 1 for an unprecedented amount of time. Even the players that we have had to let go due to being stacked at virtually every position have carved out a successful career for themselves. We, the ringless Seahawks curb stomped Peyton Manning and his "historically great" offense. I think only one coach could have brought us such satisfying moments, and such thrilling games, that coach being Pete Carroll. I think it is important to remember the good times we've had with him as coach. All that being said I fear that the best is behind the Pete Carroll Seahawks. Nothing gold can stay, time has moved on. Pete Carroll has failed to adapt, for all the good he has done for this franchise -- it is time to finish this chapter of the ongoing Seahawks novel.

    Carroll has lost his edge. It is clear to me that Carroll is no longer having fun. This season he looked checked out at times. His wrinkles looked deeper -- his youthful enthusiasm was turned to apathy or rage. Quite frankly -- I'm surprised he stuck around for another year. He is currently the oldest coach in the NFL, and he has finally started to look his age. Moreover, since the questionable call in the Super Bowl something has not been right with this team. We started hearing rumors of rifts, that appear to have been based in reality. Players openly started questioning each other, and in the case of the offense started throwing jabs at the offense. Players such as Marshawn openly disrespected Bevell. Carroll failed, rather spectacularly down the stretch at managing these big personalities. Little cracks in the chemistry turned into fissures. Players such as Bennett openly admitted to ignoring team meetings -- I think this is the case for other players as well. None of our defensive line played with any semblance of gap integrity or discipline last season. Pete Carroll, and his handpicked staff have lost control of this team.

    As a result we are shipping off our entire core of players, and two more may never play another down again due to injuries. If Carroll had another four years to rebuild, and reshape the team as he did in 2010 I would be down with him staying. Unfortunately, I don't think he has that time, nor does he look like he wants to be around the NFL for that much longer. I feel as if I'm watching a lame duck coach at the moment. I don't think he has any plans on staying in the league for much longer, especially given on how he doubled down on the 2017 season -- with little regards for tomorrow. The coaches he brought in to replace Bevell and Richards screamed last ditch effort. He hired two, old school militaristic style coaches --- a huge departure from the laid persona's of Richards, and Bevell. These two coaches have not had much success at their jobs, but they sure as hell got the respect from the players wherever they went.

    Carroll seems like a coach that is struggling to remain in control of his team. He has lost a lot of credibility over the years due to his poor, unorthodox drafts, and poor in game decision making -- including "the play". All of the goodwill he has gained in the eyes of the league has been replaced by the shadow of that fated Super Bowl. Among NFL fans, Carroll is viewed now as a punch line, rather than by his stellar record in college play, and the NFL since 2010. This view among fans is quite troublesome, because one would have to imagine that the same thoughts resonate among college players, and NFL players alike. Why this is troublesome, is the fact that Pete Carroll has struggled with the same problems in his past tenures. Once things start going downhill, they snowball out of control as far as Pete Carroll is concerned. It is quite clear that he is not the right man for the job anymore. I am thankful for what he has done, but I think it is time to put old yeller out to pasture, and move on. I will always hold fond memories of Pete Carroll, and be thankful for what he did, and what he created. We have earned our mark in the history books, and among the pantheon of NFL legends. Sad is it may be though, that time is up, and we must move on --- as time has run its course.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:09 pm
  • There's no way half the coaches in the league win the SB with that team, that's nonsense IMO and there's no way to go about supporting that claim. Carroll built the team and the culture, which was huge in getting us the win. Saying any one player had more impact on us getting that SB win is asinine.

    Also, you aren't considering the other extremely talented teams that haven't won the SB - it happens every year. The Falcons massively underachieved this year, as have the Steelers the past several years. The Chargers low-key had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL and didn't even make the playoffs. The Cards were extremely talented in 2015 and got blasted way harder than we did by the Panthers. The #1 seed Cowboys couldn't win a single playoff game in 2016. There are so many examples. The point is, only one team wins the SB every season. I do agree this iteration of the seahawks underachieved, but it's not as heinous as you make it seem.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:11 pm
  • cymatica wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

    Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

    Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?


    Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.


    How is it underachieving when Pete started from scratch, while the other coaches were already well established? Blind stats don't mean anything


    And none of those guys have more rings than Carroll either.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:04 pm
  • Fade wrote: If they still can't run the ball, and the offense is a mess, I think Pete is done here. I am honestly not concerned with W-L record in 2018. I just want to see significant progress running the football. He has had 3 yrs to build a running game, and it just keeps getting worse. They couldn't run the ball before Lynch showed up, and they can't run the ball after Lynch left.


    I'll take the wins over a good rushing game and a loss.... Some of the posts in this thread are ridiculous
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:53 pm
  • Agree, Pete is far from done, and if players aren’t in with your program you move them out. Both Sherman and Bennett had reasons to support Pete but they were ‘special’ and above the team. Jeez, reading a book during a team meeting , what a direct challenge to the Coach. C’ya!
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:45 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    jammerhawk wrote:Compared to what other team besides the Patriots?

    Besides Bellichek compared to what other coach has Pete underachieved since 2010?

    Who has done better than Pete over this period than BB?


    Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, John Harbaugh, and Mike Tomlin are all coaches that have higher win percentages than Carroll that have been coaching the same team since 2010.


    Let's look at the performance of the teams of those coaches and Pete since 2010.

    McCarthy - Green Bay
    Regular Season: 83 W, 44 L, 1 T (65.2%)
    Playoffs: 9 W, 6 L (60%)
    - 1 Super Bowl win in 2010; no appearances since then
    - Won 2 playoff games in 2016
    - Inherited a team that went 4-12 the year before but had been in the playoffs each of the four years prior to that down year

    Payton - New Orleans
    Regular Season: 67 W, 45 L, 0 T (59.8%)
    Playoffs: 3 W, 4 L (42.9%)
    - Super Bowl winning team in 2009, one year before this period; no appearances since then
    - Was out of the game in 2012 due to suspension

    Harbaugh - Baltimore
    Regular Season: 74 W, 54 L, 1 T (57.8%)
    Playoffs: 7 W, 3 L (70%)
    - 1 Super Bowl win in 2012; no appearances since
    - Missed playoffs 4 out of the 8 years
    - Inherited a team that was somewhat up and down during Billicks' tenure but had won a Super Bowl and made the playoffs in 3 other years

    Tomlin - Pittsburgh
    Regular Season: 85 W, 43 L, 0 T (66.41%)
    Playoffs: 5 W, 6 L (45.5%)
    - 1 Super Bowl win in 2008, prior to this period; no appearances since
    - Missed playoffs in 2012 and 2013
    - Inherited a team whose previous coach had a 62.3% winning percentage in Pittsburgh

    Carroll - Seattle
    Regular Season: 79 W, 48 L, 1 T (62.1%)
    Playoffs: 9 W, 5 L (64.3%)
    - 1 Super Bowl win in 2013; 1 near-miss in 2014
    - Made the playoffs every year except 2011 and 2017
    - Inherited a team that had only won 9 games over the two previous seasons and was in need of a complete rebuild
    - If you remove the 2 rebuild years in 2010-2011, winning % is 68.4% in the regular season and 66.7% in the playoffs.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:50 am
  • If Michael Bennett and Richard Sherman were 25 years old and healthy, they would still be here.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:40 am
  • I'm not so sure a 25 year old Sherm or MB would still be on the team.

    PC has shown the willingness to keep injuries players-PRich and CJ Prosise for example.

    But, if you are a super talent, injuried, carrying a big contract, and is considered a cancer to the team....which both are now showing....I'm not so sure they would still be on the team. Example? Percy Harvin.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:32 am
  • truehawksfan wrote:I'm not so sure a 25 year old Sherm or MB would still be on the team.

    PC has shown the willingness to keep injuries players-PRich and CJ Prosise for example.

    But, if you are a super talent, injuried, carrying a big contract, and is considered a cancer to the team....which both are now showing....I'm not so sure they would still be on the team. Example? Percy Harvin.


    Those players were on rookie contracts. They also weren't in their 30s. Huge difference.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:39 pm
  • Much ado about nothing. Seahawks had to move on from old and expensive players. Said players are upset. That about covers it.
    As for not throwing Bennett out of meetings for reading a book. Doubt Pete noticed, lot of players in the room and Pete is focused on what he has to say.
    Seahawks are onward to trying to collect the next core group of players.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:48 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:He built fantastically talented team that was tremendous for 2 years but then barely was able to get to the wildcard for 3.

    Makes my point. He is great at finding greatness, developing it, honing it. Not that great at using it once he has it built.

    Lots of promise, some amazing flashes of greatness on the teams - but no consistency.

    What Carroll does well, is put great players in a position to make plays. And he absolutely makes some players great (Browner is a good example). But with that many great players, he underachieves.

    I am not saying he needs SB wins to validate what he does. But for H sake, a team with that many great players should not get absolutely run out of the building in every game past the wildcard.

    His great players are slowly vanishing off the roster and he is simply not a great gameday coach. He needs a stronger roster and he will not have one.

    He does less with more. But he has had a lot more 'more' on his roster to compensate for it. Now he won't.



    its less and less interesting reading you move your argument around to fit a narrative, which, at this point still isnt clear.

    PC might be the most consistent coach in the NFL the last 8 years outside of the BB. Pittpnthrs tried to demonstrate otherwise and was shown wrong, and how difficult it is.

    the two of you suggest anyone would've done better with a "once in a lifetime roster" and yet no other coach, despite having ridiculous rosters at some point in the careers, have done anything you would deem consistently successful. except one coach.

    you misrepresent PCs strengths, and ignore what they really are while sustaining a line of thinking that contradicts from one sentence to another.

    "he does less with more"... yet... built the "more"

    He wont have more.. yet he's the one that created that roster to begin with..

    Its shocking how easily you contradict yourself from line to line, post to post, thread to thread.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:53 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:He underachieved?

    in comparison to one other program...



    He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.


    not a legitimate chance?

    based on what? the same roster you whinging about being dismantled?

    The line of thinking is absurdly contradictory...

    the team was one of the best in the NFL for 4 years.. went to two super bowls... won once.

    however, that line up had no legitimate chance of doing it again a year or two after? they just got pummeled. if the team was so bad... why did it underachieve?
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:24 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:He underachieved?

    in comparison to one other program...



    He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.


    not a legitimate chance?

    based on what? the same roster you whinging about being dismantled?

    The line of thinking is absurdly contradictory...

    the team was one of the best in the NFL for 4 years.. went to two super bowls... won once.

    however, that line up had no legitimate chance of doing it again a year or two after? they just got pummeled. if the team was so bad... why did it underachieve?


    Where was I whining about the roster being dismantled? I think letting Sherman go was a mistake, but i'm not that invested in it that i'm losing sleep. Could care less about Bennett. Anyways I was basing my statement on when Carolina put the beating on us in the playoffs I knew it was officially over. Anybody thinking we were going to beat Atlanta in the playoffs the following year were fooling themselves and downright crazy. Of course we lost. The reason for it was more due to terrible coaching than anything to do with the roster. Everybody realizes how incompetent Bevell and Cable are/were and then you had Pete trying to pound round pegs into square holes with that offensive philosophy.

    Look, I give Pete credit for putting together such a talented team. It was so talented that it masked poor coaching for years. A better coaching staff wins at least 3 titles with that roster. Pete and his staff underachieved. If you think he got the most out of his teams than so be it, but I dont see it that way.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:16 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Cyrus12 wrote:All comes back to the play in sb49. It will haunt this team until there's no one left that was part of it.


    Seems to be haunting some fans, too.

    Every time the game is played one team wins and one team loses. Even the Pats lose. Get over it and get on with it.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:00 pm
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:He underachieved?

    in comparison to one other program...



    He achieved the ultimate goal in winning a championship, but on the whole, I believe he underachieved. With a once in a lifetime roster (yes he deserves credit for forming it), he only managed one title. Instead of reaching the heights that many foresaw and predicted, the Seahawks became a one and done team like so many others before and after us. Sure we made the playoffs after SB49, but anybody (well most people) could see that we didn't have a legitimate chance of moving forward. Once the top tier teams came along, they pummeled us. So yes, he most certainly underachieved.


    not a legitimate chance?

    based on what? the same roster you whinging about being dismantled?

    The line of thinking is absurdly contradictory...

    the team was one of the best in the NFL for 4 years.. went to two super bowls... won once.

    however, that line up had no legitimate chance of doing it again a year or two after? they just got pummeled. if the team was so bad... why did it underachieve?


    Where was I whining about the roster being dismantled? I think letting Sherman go was a mistake, but i'm not that invested in it that i'm losing sleep. Could care less about Bennett. Anyways I was basing my statement on when Carolina put the beating on us in the playoffs I knew it was officially over. Anybody thinking we were going to beat Atlanta in the playoffs the following year were fooling themselves and downright crazy. Of course we lost. The reason for it was more due to terrible coaching than anything to do with the roster. Everybody realizes how incompetent Bevell and Cable are/were and then you had Pete trying to pound round pegs into square holes with that offensive philosophy.

    Look, I give Pete credit for putting together such a talented team. It was so talented that it masked poor coaching for years. A better coaching staff wins at least 3 titles with that roster. Pete and his staff underachieved. If you think he got the most out of his teams than so be it, but I dont see it that way.


    The same staff with nearly the same roster that went to two consecutive Super Bowls under achieved because the same coaching staff suddenly sucked. To the degree, mind, that the same staff and roster never had a chance.

    Perhaps the parity the rest of the league exists in for a reason.

    You clearly have your idea of where the blame lies. Maybe the under achieving if you see it isn’t as simple as the coach. I still am shocked to hear players blame others in a game with so many moving parts. Seems fans have taken the same simplistic and narrow view.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:27 pm
  • XLIX was > than 3 years ago. The Seahawks lost when we had hope they would punch it in. In my fandom as Hawks fan I can’t ever remember being so bummed out. I still can’t watch the end of that game when our team wound up being the second best team in football. Some couldn’t let it go, I get that it it’s time to move on. The play was a mistake and all but Bevell owned up to their part in the mistake that ended a fine offensive comeback. Bevell should have been axed for throwing his players under the bus, and it may have helped heal the wound but for some it festered and now those who areN’t In are gone.

    It’s going to be a different team this coming season, the division is going to be very competitive,but for those counting us out before they see the team play, they are making a mistake to underestimate The team here and the returning players from last year. Yep, there were lots of problems last year mbut two missed field goals could have had the team winning the west and finishing 11-5.

    The OLine will be under different management and i’d Be surprised if it isn’t significantly better. At present we all have questions after the loss of two major players from the core and what appears to be 2 more to career ending injuries. Replacing them all won’t be easy or certain. The doom and gloom crowd want to can Pete send Schneider back to Green Bay. Because Pete couldn’t control Bennett or Sherman and encouraged the players to be themselves he’s no good. Schneider apparently can’t draft worth a lick w/o Scott McCloughan. Heavens this is a negative viewpoint, but if you are into it enjoy your misery, You will find others to keep you company and you can write about how the FO has underachieved, etc., etc..

    For me I will wait and watch the draft and see what type of team hits the field for the 2018 season. To me as well I remain a believer in this FO who has done things better than they have ever been done here before. We all need to be patient. I do understand though why Bennett was traded and why Sherman was released. I expect more players from the core to be gone eventually like Avril and eventually Chancellor these losses suck but changes happen with football and injuries are inevitable as is aging out.

    I’m curious how Schneider will wiggle around to acquire more picks in the draft. One step at a time. I am keeping the faith.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:43 pm
  • Kam would have never been a Safety, Sherman would never have been drafted and given a chance ton play CB if even picked up as a WR. We would have seen no Clemens and Bryant as a Leo. The vison was great in the beginning, another coaching staff would have never used these guys the way they were used.

    The problem was the patting themselves on the back and thinking they could work miracles with every player I think became a issue and we lost focus on what we were doing after the league began to copy cat us on size and speed and we never adjusted and were looking at bargains all the time.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:49 pm
  • hawknation2018 wrote:
    Popeyejones wrote:
    IrishNW wrote:Pete's loyalty is his biggest flaw as a coach


    He fired his coordinators and is shipping off his All Pros. I don't think loyalty is his issue.

    I don't want to excuse Bennett for doing this or for talking about it publicly, but it is yet another indication of what PC's biggest flaw is as a HC IMO:

    He just errs very far to the "let the players be themselves"/"anything goes" side of the leadership equation, and has never seemed to have any desire to balance that "loving mother" style out with "stern father" moments. That works perfectly fine when everything is working, but when things get more challenging everything implodes.

    I mean yeah, that Bennett is reading a book while his coach is conducting a team meeting doesn't look good for Bennett, but it's insane that he didn't get kicked out of the meeting and chewed out the first time he tried to pull that stunt. Essentially, from P.C. Bennett learned that he could completely disregard his coach when he felt like it without any consequences.

    And Seahawks players over the years have learned that lesson over and over again: If guys are getting in fist fights with each other on the sidelines without consequences, pushing their coaches without consequences, telling national reporters they're going to turn them into their prostitutes without consequences, sitting their reading a book while the coach is addressing the room without consequences, taking dumb penalties all the time without consequences, pretending to to take a sh!t in the endzone without consequences, criticizing each other in the media without consequences, and so on, and so on, and so on, you have made it clear to everyone that they can practically do whatever they want without any repercussions.

    I sincerely don't know if PC knows this or not, but if he's jettisoning vet All Pros under the belief that they're just bad seeds and he needs to get them out of there to get the ship back in order, that's a huge mistake. His leadership style creates a lack of accountability, and if he doesn't change that or balance out more he's just going to be restarting with (what are very likely going to be less talented) younger players who will come in and learn all the same lessons and over time in the aggregate have all the same problems.


    This shows a real ignorance of Pete Carroll's coaching philosophy.

    Also, Bennett & Sherman were let go because they are old . . . not because they are "bad seeds."


    Probably is far more accurate view of Carroll than you think.

    You have two star players call out their former coach, so this isn't far fetched.

    Let's just say this:

    You'll never hear it from Wilson.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:54 pm
  • Two players who were let go because they are old and injured. No hard feelings.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:30 am
  • Who cares what Michael Bennett thinks? He is a horrible person! He was even sued by a dog boarder for abandoning his puppy in Tampa when he was signed by the Seahawks. He never went back for it! This to go along with the rest of his off the field crap and it doesn't include his continual offside penalties. I've never been so happy to see any player off our roster!
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:05 am
  • chris98251 wrote:Kam would have never been a Safety, Sherman would never have been drafted and given a chance ton play CB if even picked up as a WR. We would have seen no Clemens and Bryant as a Leo. The vison was great in the beginning, another coaching staff would have never used these guys the way they were used.



    You might be limiting your comments to the defense, but I doubt any other coach in the league starts Russell Wilson over Matt Flynn.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:15 am
  • Uncle Si wrote: I still am shocked to hear players blame others in a game with so many moving parts. Seems fans have taken the same simplistic and narrow view.


    If it were only one or two, I could understand the simplistic view, but its been many. I think theres more to it than any of us really know.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:10 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote: I still am shocked to hear players blame others in a game with so many moving parts. Seems fans have taken the same simplistic and narrow view.


    If it were only one or two, I could understand the simplistic view, but its been many. I think theres more to it than any of us really know.



    Yes.. the players were provided an environment in which they could excel.. then took full advantage of that environment to excel, won games and championships, then took it all for granted.

    I completely agree the team didn't reach its potential. The only blame I would have for PC is that he should have changed the process that had worked so well in getting them to the level they were... but in doing that, its ignoring the same process that made the team as good as it was.

    maybe thats the thing.. PC's process is not sustainable for long periods of time and needs to be reset every so often, if the players cannot handle the freedoms they are afforded for that long period of time.

    Blaming PC over the players he made is honestly very naive, though, in my opinion. We saw the players revolt, openly, against a coaching staff that gave them the very environment they were revolting against. The whole thing is highly contrived, hypocritical and, in retrospect, immature.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:11 am
  • NINEster wrote:Probably is far more accurate view of Carroll than you think.

    You have two star players call out their former coach, so this isn't far fetched.

    Let's just say this:

    You'll never hear it from Wilson.


    You'll never hear it from Wilson because he recognizes the environment he's in. The other two took advantage of that environment to become the players they were, then put themselves above it.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:56 am
  • It was a hell of a run, but the fact that a lot of guys got full of themselves is not a surprise. It's not just a Seattle or PC thing, it happens all over the league.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:51 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote: I still am shocked to hear players blame others in a game with so many moving parts. Seems fans have taken the same simplistic and narrow view.


    If it were only one or two, I could understand the simplistic view, but its been many. I think theres more to it than any of us really know.


    I completely agree the team didn't reach its potential. The only blame I would have for PC is that he should have changed the process that had worked so well in getting them to the level they were... but in doing that, its ignoring the same process that made the team as good as it was.


    Im not even against the environment per se, but my biggest issue with Pete was the philosophy. I dont know why he continued to manage the team as a 3 quarter low scoring group that depends so much on the defense to hold and bail out the offense out for wins. Its baffling to me that we couldnt score more in the early part of games to help out during the span of a lot of those contests over the last 3 years, but we didnt. Its an attribute to the talent we had that we were actually as successful as we were. Thats why I say a lot of other coaches would or could have been more successful with our roster because they wouldnt have put up with such a lousy product and changed things up. Pete was stubborn to a fault. Purely my opinion though.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:09 am
  • pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:
    pittpnthrs wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote: I still am shocked to hear players blame others in a game with so many moving parts. Seems fans have taken the same simplistic and narrow view.


    If it were only one or two, I could understand the simplistic view, but its been many. I think theres more to it than any of us really know.


    I completely agree the team didn't reach its potential. The only blame I would have for PC is that he should have changed the process that had worked so well in getting them to the level they were... but in doing that, its ignoring the same process that made the team as good as it was.


    Im not even against the environment per se, but my biggest issue with Pete was the philosophy. I dont know why he continued to manage the team as a 3 quarter low scoring group that depends so much on the defense to hold and bail out the offense out for wins. Its baffling to me that we couldnt score more in the early part of games to help out during the span of a lot of those contests over the last 3 years, but we didnt. Its an attribute to the talent we had that we were actually as successful as we were. Thats why I say a lot of other coaches would or could have been more successful with our roster because they wouldnt have put up with such a lousy product and changed things up. Pete was stubborn to a fault. Purely my opinion though.



    I guess I dont see it as "stubborn" as many, many coaches remain consistent to their path and process. Only a handful are considered flexible. In Pete's case, he put faith in players, both fed off that and won many games, and then it went downhill.

    the offensive product went downhill right around that playoff game with MN. would've been nice to see adjustments (in comes Graham and a parade of RBs) but the plan had worked well before.

    The idea that the talent bailed the team out again just ignores that this process had won many, many games before (really, right before Lynch went out).

    I've no idea if PC can recapture the momentum with a new crop
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:26 am
  • Pete the tactician undermines Pete the strategist.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:28 am
  • bigcc wrote:
    Fade wrote: If they still can't run the ball, and the offense is a mess, I think Pete is done here. I am honestly not concerned with W-L record in 2018. I just want to see significant progress running the football. He has had 3 yrs to build a running game, and it just keeps getting worse. They couldn't run the ball before Lynch showed up, and they can't run the ball after Lynch left.


    I'll take the wins over a good rushing game and a loss.... Some of the posts in this thread are ridiculous


    It is about Pete's philosophy at the end of the day. He has sacrificed building competent protection, and a proper offense around Russell Wilson. To instead run the football (poorly) and insulate himself with "Yes Man" coaches. I would expect them to be one of the best running teams in the league if they are going that route, as Pete has it very high on his priorities list at all times. Instead they have been horrible at it for 3 seasons in a row.

    Pete can continue with his philosophy, but if it continues to have players square pegged round holed, Russ is getting killed, and they still can't run the ball. I am sorry, but Pete will be in trouble.

    Let us hope they can run the ball this year. 4th times a charm.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:33 am
  • mrt144 wrote:Pete the tactician undermines Pete the strategist.


    I'd change this to Pete the philosopher undermines Pete the strategist.

    Let's be honest, what makes Pete such a great coach is also his worst enemy at times. He's one of the greatest motivators of all time, he knows how to relate to his players, make them feel empowered and unleashes that into what he wants to get out of that player.

    BUT, his glass is always half full approach to not knowing when players are a lost cause and that everything is fixable because he's such an amazing motivator makes for all the drama and nonsense that has affected this team at times, and certainly the last couple of years.
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Re: MB on Pete Carroll
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:42 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:the offensive product went downhill right around that playoff game with MN. would've been nice to see adjustments (in comes Graham and a parade of RBs) but the plan had worked well before.


    See, I felt it started early in 2015 until the 2nd half of that season when they opened the playbook and Russ went crazy. As soon as 2016 started off, it was right back to the old plan of running the offense like a healthy Lynch was back there when he wasnt. We never deviated from that either. And then there was last season. I have no stats to back up my claim and dont feel the need to look it up, but thats how I remember it going. Of course, I might be short sighted in doing so too. Either way, not trying to fight with you Si or anybody else, its just there's two camps to sit with and we chose different sides. The issues are obvious, its just who do you want to blame.
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