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Did cable have complete control on picking the O line?

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  • I did not read that and don't need to.

    Per John Schnieder....."I would never sign a player that Tom was not good with".

    Per Mike Holmgren..."Tom has very high latitude on selecting his players".

    That is all we need to know, and the damage is already done....for years now.
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  • The FG's article is accurate.

    Cable had some major influence and input into who we drafted along the O-line, as do most O-line coaches btw.

    IMO the downfall of our O-line was just as much Pete and John's fault, as it was Cables. They put too much trust in Cable to make chicken salad out of chicken crap.............trusting that their saving major money on the line to spend elsewhere cause Cable was going to work his magic on deficient or project lineman would work.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:The FG's article is accurate.

    Cable had some major influence and input into who we drafted along the O-line, as do most O-line coaches btw.

    IMO the downfall of our O-line was just as much Pete and John's fault, as it was Cables. They put too much trust in Cable to make chicken salad out of chicken crap.............trusting that their saving major money on the line to spend elsewhere cause Cable was going to work his magic on deficient or project lineman would work.


    Disagree. Do you believe that Clint Hurtt has the major say in Dline selections then?
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  • Seymour wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:The FG's article is accurate.

    Cable had some major influence and input into who we drafted along the O-line, as do most O-line coaches btw.

    IMO the downfall of our O-line was just as much Pete and John's fault, as it was Cables. They put too much trust in Cable to make chicken salad out of chicken crap.............trusting that their saving major money on the line to spend elsewhere cause Cable was going to work his magic on deficient or project lineman would work.


    Disagree. Do you believe that Clint Hurtt has the major say in Dline selections then?


    It's apples and oranges to me.

    I'd venture to guess next to the main coordinators, the next most valuable assistant is the O-line coach, therefore more involvement and input is needed because that's such a vital and important position group, that depends on a coach to install his schemes and technique.

    Go check the paychecks of all the NFL assistants on every team, and I betcha the O-line coach makes more than the D-line coach. Why?

    So no, while I do think Hurtt is involved in the vetting and scouting process of who we draft on the D-line, I don't think it's anywhere near the input of guys like Cable and Solari (and every other team's D and O-line coordinators).
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  • LOL. Position coaches do not earn more $$ than coordinators. :roll:

    This is likely why they got away giving him his powers. Sub title "Assistant head coach". Not because he was "an empowered Oline coach like all the rest".
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  • Seymour wrote:LOL. Position coaches do not earn more $$ than coordinators. :roll:

    This is likely why they got away giving him his powers. Sub title "Assistant head coach". Not because he was "an empowered Oline coach like all the rest".


    Now you're arguing levels of influence.

    All I said was other team's O-Line coaches also have major input into their O-line draft and personnel moves. Maybe Cable had more than most? Idk, but the failure wasn't ALL on him...........Pete and John were the ones who let let that failed chain of command go on too long.
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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Seymour wrote:LOL. Position coaches do not earn more $$ than coordinators. :roll:

    This is likely why they got away giving him his powers. Sub title "Assistant head coach". Not because he was "an empowered Oline coach like all the rest".


    Now you're arguing levels of influence.

    All I said was other team's O-Line coaches also have major input into their O-line draft and personnel moves. Maybe Cable had more than most? Idk, but the failure wasn't ALL on him...........Pete and John were the ones who let let that failed chain of command go on too long.


    Bingo!!
    No argument on that one!
    Damn right Pete and to a more minor extent John had their hands in this. But IMO it was more their "hands off" that put trust in Fable that enabled the situation to continue year after year. :evil:
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  • Tom Cable was more than a position coach, he was almost assistant head coach, so yeah, he had a lot of influence, I believe.
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  • Without a definitive statement from the Team Office, I doubt we will ever know how much influence Cable might have had.

    Logically, I wouldn't think the GM or HC would draft players without some influence from coaches up and down the staff. That doesn't mean that an assistant would be able to dictate who gets drafted for them, but some level of cooperation/coordination would seem to be a good idea. Ultimately, though, the buck stops at the GM/HC duo. P&J seem to have worked well together in the past.
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  • Shanegotyou11 wrote:Heres a article to discuss.


    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/5/1/173 ... ree-agency


    I noticed that article but it struck me as an exercise in shaping a data set to support a predetermined assertion. The author assumes Cable had no input on the Seahawk linemen included in his presentation while assuming exclusive determination of Seahawk linemen not included in the tables. Although I've long suspect there were two semi-disjointed schools of thought making collective choices with regards to offensive linemen, the article is not persuasive in neatly proving that notion. I view the article as a faulty proof.

    One sees far too much of this where a data set is massaged thru selective inclusion and exclusion of data to give the illusion of supporting a predetermined outcome. It's rampant in our society. Most of the author's articles are far better than this example.

    Never-the-less thanks for posting. It does reminds us to examine and consider what we read.
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  • Jville wrote:
    Shanegotyou11 wrote:Heres a article to discuss.


    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/5/1/173 ... ree-agency


    I noticed that article but it struck me as an exercise in shaping a data set to support a predetermined assertion. The author assumes Cable had no input on the Seahawk linemen included in his presentation while assuming exclusive determination of Seahawk linemen not included in the tables. Although I've long suspect there were two semi-disjointed groups making collective choices with regards to offensive linemen, the article is not persuasive in neatly proving that notion. I view the article as a faulty proof.

    One sees far too much of this where a data set is massaged thru selective inclusion and exclusion of data to give the illusion of supporting a predetermined outcome. It's rampant in our society. Most of the author's articles are far better than this example.

    Never-the-less thanks for posting. It does reminds us to examine and consider what we read.


    Cable didn't have 0% total control over the O-line, and he didn't have 100% total control.

    So what we're really discussing is level of influence.

    Did he have more than most O-line coaches? Yep, I believe he did, but as all the Bevell parrots didn't want to admit, in the end this is Pete's team and Pete had/has the final say on any and all draft picks and personnel decisions.

    No one outside of those war rooms during the draft will know just how much influence Cable had in who we drafted. My guess is Cable was heavily involved in the scouting and "type" of linemen he thought would work well in his ZBS system............then Pete, John and their scouting team narrowed those players down to which ones would and wouldn't be on their draft board. Then we picked.
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  • I read that article as well and I thought it failed to address the length of time Cable was here and his degree of control over the O, OLine, and the running game. Certainly the final decision on any Olineman picked would have been made by Pn'J but each of those decisions went through the filter of Cable's approval.

    In particular we only need to look at the additions of the FA players added last year, Joeckel was a total bust and so was the other OG. Joeckel was supposed to be a rising star OG but couldn't block his shadow, the other Aboushi guy was so weak at playing his position he couldn't beat out a rookie. When both were added Cable crowed about how lucky they were to have both players to bring stability to young OLine. Pn'J continuously bought into Cable's mumbo jumbo until it became obvious the trend was steadily working against them as far as weak OLine play. Cable simply repeatedly failed to meet any stated objectives. That fact got him fired some thing that should have happened 1-2 seasons earlier.

    I suspect the talent the team has at present for the Oline will be better w/o Cable's meddling influence and it won't hurt that Bevell has gone so there can be a normal chain of command as far as the OLine and running game.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Jville wrote:
    Shanegotyou11 wrote:Heres a article to discuss.


    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/5/1/173 ... ree-agency


    I noticed that article but it struck me as an exercise in shaping a data set to support a predetermined assertion. The author assumes Cable had no input on the Seahawk linemen included in his presentation while assuming exclusive determination of Seahawk linemen not included in the tables. Although I've long suspect there were two semi-disjointed groups making collective choices with regards to offensive linemen, the article is not persuasive in neatly proving that notion. I view the article as a faulty proof.

    One sees far too much of this where a data set is massaged thru selective inclusion and exclusion of data to give the illusion of supporting a predetermined outcome. It's rampant in our society. Most of the author's articles are far better than this example.

    Never-the-less thanks for posting. It does reminds us to examine and consider what we read.


    Not sure what the confusion is, Cable didn't have 0% total control over the O-line, and he didn't have 100% total control.

    Did he have more than most O-line coaches? Yep, I believe he did, but as all the Bevell parrots didn't want to admit, in the end this is Pete's team and Pete had/has the final say on any and all draft picks and personnel decisions.

    So you're right, no one outside of those war rooms during the draft will know just how much influence Cable had in who we drafted. My guess is Cable was heavily involved in the scouting and "type" of linemen he thought would work well in his ZBS system............then Pete, John and their scouting team narrowed those players down to which ones would and wouldn't be on their draft board. Then we picked.


    Understood ..... over the years, the press conferences of John and Pete and Cable consistently maintained that the process was a collaborative effort. My comments were narrowly directed at the article's flawed proof of assertion.
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  • Off the top of my head, I don't think the data necessarily supports the conclusion the author is drawing? The players with lower TEF scores comparable to Jamarco's were all later draft picks or cheap FA signings, with Rees being the highest as a 3rd round comp pick. I'd say those are less important draft picks/signings than guys like Carpenter, Ifedi, and Britt, who I recall were TEF monsters. My guess is that Cable had more influence on our higher picks, which changed with the Pocic pick, as Pocic didn't fit that explosive athlete mold Cable liked.
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  • ...asking a question that is irrelevant...

    Several times our failed OLs ended up on other teams as competent. Most FA OLs that came here were worse. The players were turned into failures. That's coaching and system, not recruiting and drafting.
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  • I do remember reading that Cable knew nothing of Pocic coming into last season so there's that.
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  • Shanegotyou11 wrote:Heres a article to discuss.


    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/5/1/173 ... ree-agency


    This article assumes Cable had autonomy in drafting OLINE in OAK. Reggie McKenzie isn't nearly stupid enough to let Cable do that.
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  • lukerguy wrote:
    Shanegotyou11 wrote:Heres a article to discuss.


    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/5/1/173 ... ree-agency


    This article assumes Cable had autonomy in drafting OLINE in OAK. Reggie McKenzie isn't nearly stupid enough to let Cable do that.


    Stewing on this.. the article in it's tone suggests that even if Cable didn't have the main influence in drafting lineman, that somehow it's JS's fault..

    Here's the thing, Duane Brown was a an all pro LT, and he started that way for the Hawks. He clearly diminished as he stayed in Seattle longer. So, even if JS picked all of the players (which he didn't), how would you know if previous picks were bad, because they weren't developed well?
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  • The Breh wrote:I do remember reading that Cable knew nothing of Pocic coming into last season so there's that.


    That has nothing to do with him buying into drafting Pocic. Here is proof of that.
    It might seem strange the Seahawks would select someone so high without meeting with the position coach but the Seahawks didn’t want to tip their hand.

    “He was the one guy that, quite frankly, we were really sweating out,” Schneider told reporters Friday night. “We felt like we were drafting maybe two and a half players with one guy, so we debated whether to go up and get him or just sit and wait and sweat it out. I changed my shirt [laughing].

    “We thought he was so versatile, we just wanted to be very careful with how much interest we showed.”


    https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2017/04/29/ethan-pocic-fired-up-to-work-with-seahawks-coach-tom-cable/
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  • Did anyone read the article? They made zero connections to Tom Cable and his authority to draft or not draft players. This was a bait and switch headline and some of you fell for it. Go look at who the Raiders just drafted. They drafted Cable "project" offensive linemen.
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  • Pete is a big time Defense guru, (especially the Secondary), he looked to Cable's supposed expertise to build him an Offensive line that would play to Pete's "Ball/Clock Control", first & foremost,he wanted to feature the Run Game to wear down the opposing Defenses, and with Marshawn Lynch & a scrambling Russell Wilson, Cables weakness in Coaching was disguised........until three Seasons ago, (when the bandaid was ripped off) and Russell Wilson was left to pick up the slack all by his lonesome.
    "Run around in the middle of the road and yer gonna get yer ass rund over".
    Cable was EXPOSED as a pretender, and so was Darryl Bevell.
    In the end though, as Head Coach, Pete is responsible for Uncle Fester's failings.
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  • chrispy wrote:...asking a question that is irrelevant...

    Several times our failed OLs ended up on other teams as competent. Most FA OLs that came here were worse. The players were turned into failures. That's coaching and system, not recruiting and drafting.



    Agreed.
    And, according to some folks, Cable is already screwing up the Raiders' line.....
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  • I got this piece from Mike Solari's profile on the Seahawks.com site -

    "In Solari’s 19 seasons serving as an NFL team’s primary offensive line coach, his players combined for 25 Pro Bowl appearances and at least one of his players was selected to the Pro Bowl in 15 of those seasons."

    That is what has me pumped and jacked about the future of the Seahawk OL. How many players under Cable tutelage developed into pro-bowlers?
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  • hawkfan68 wrote:I got this piece from Mike Solari's profile on the Seahawks.com site -

    "In Solari’s 19 seasons serving as an NFL team’s primary offensive line coach, his players combined for 25 Pro Bowl appearances and at least one of his players was selected to the Pro Bowl in 15 of those seasons."

    That is what has me pumped and jacked about the future of the Seahawk OL. How many players under Cable tutelage developed into pro-bowlers?



    One. Justin Britt who should have been a pro bowl tackle but backed into succcues as a C
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  • Seymour wrote:
    The Breh wrote:I do remember reading that Cable knew nothing of Pocic coming into last season so there's that.


    That has nothing to do with him buying into drafting Pocic. Here is proof of that.
    It might seem strange the Seahawks would select someone so high without meeting with the position coach but the Seahawks didn’t want to tip their hand.

    “He was the one guy that, quite frankly, we were really sweating out,” Schneider told reporters Friday night. “We felt like we were drafting maybe two and a half players with one guy, so we debated whether to go up and get him or just sit and wait and sweat it out. I changed my shirt [laughing].

    “We thought he was so versatile, we just wanted to be very careful with how much interest we showed.”


    https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2017/04/29/ethan-pocic-fired-up-to-work-with-seahawks-coach-tom-cable/


    The whole threads premise is Cable having complete control of drafting the line.
    I said as recently as our last draft with him they were already distancing themselves from his input.
    Him buying in after the fact has absolutely nothing to do with this threads meaning.
    Of course he's going to buy in.
    Same way all those politicians who support a president at SOTU's by standing after every other sentence when they strongly disagree with the man.
    Of course they're buying in.
    The writing was on the wall as per Cables future here in hindsight.
    I don't know what you're trying to say or if you're just playing contrarian as par for the course or what.

    They clearly wanted a player and went as far as keeping him completely out of it.
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  • The Breh wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    The Breh wrote:I do remember reading that Cable knew nothing of Pocic coming into last season so there's that.


    That has nothing to do with him buying into drafting Pocic. Here is proof of that.
    It might seem strange the Seahawks would select someone so high without meeting with the position coach but the Seahawks didn’t want to tip their hand.

    “He was the one guy that, quite frankly, we were really sweating out,” Schneider told reporters Friday night. “We felt like we were drafting maybe two and a half players with one guy, so we debated whether to go up and get him or just sit and wait and sweat it out. I changed my shirt [laughing].

    “We thought he was so versatile, we just wanted to be very careful with how much interest we showed.”


    https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2017/04/29/ethan-pocic-fired-up-to-work-with-seahawks-coach-tom-cable/


    The whole threads premise is Cable having complete control of drafting the line.
    I said as recently as our last draft with him they were already distancing themselves from his input.
    Him buying in after the fact has absolutely nothing to do with this threads meaning.
    Of course he's going to buy in.
    Same way all those politicians who support a president at SOTU's by standing after every other sentence when they strongly disagree with the man.
    Of course they're buying in.
    The writing was on the wall as per Cables future here in hindsight.
    I don't know what you're trying to say or if you're just playing contrarian as par for the course or what.

    They clearly wanted a player and went as far as keeping him completely out of it.


    My point is they decided to draft Posic without talking to Posic. Therefore they MOST likely talked with Cable and got buy in just like all the other oline picks before the fact. The article says that the Seahawks didn't talk with Posic prior to drafting him. That would mean nobody, including Cable. They well may have been distancing themselves last year, but nothing I see indicates that process of dumping Cable started that early IMO.
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  • Seymour wrote:
    My point is they decided to draft Posic without talking to Posic. Therefore they MOST likely talked with Cable and got buy in just like all the other oline picks before the fact. The article says that the Seahawks didn't talk with Posic prior to drafting him. That would mean nobody, including Cable. They well may have been distancing themselves last year, but nothing I see indicates that process of dumping Cable started that early IMO.


    Again, not unique to us.

    Lots of players drafted, at every position group didn't speak with their drafted team before being selected.

    My guess is Pocic was on a lot of team's draft boards, smart, strong, versatile, high character and motor.

    In fact, I'd hold up Pocic as one of our lineman picks that signaled the end of the Cable era. Because he was actually a four year polished college lineman that played the same position, and not some athletic two sport project.

    The safest lineman pick in a long time.
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  • J.R. Sweezy is all you have to know, Cable lobbied for him as well as Glowkowski.
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  • Oakland had one of the most expensive OL, so guys wanna speculate how Cable will perform with that line?


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  • sdog1981 wrote:Did anyone read the article? They made zero connections to Tom Cable and his authority to draft or not draft players. This was a bait and switch headline and some of you fell for it. Go look at who the Raiders just drafted. They drafted Cable "project" offensive linemen.

    People don't read the articles, they just use the headline for an excuse to have something to talk about. That's not really a problem IMO, but Jville is right (and too nice) about how garbage the article itself was.
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  • AgentDib wrote:
    sdog1981 wrote:Did anyone read the article? They made zero connections to Tom Cable and his authority to draft or not draft players. This was a bait and switch headline and some of you fell for it. Go look at who the Raiders just drafted. They drafted Cable "project" offensive linemen.

    People don't read the articles, they just use the headline for an excuse to have something to talk about. That's not really a problem IMO, but Jville is right (and too nice) about how garbage the article itself was.


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  • New offensive line coach Tom Cable was reportedly pounding the table for Miller, per Vic Tafur of The Athletic, and that's a problem. During his time as the builder of Seattle's offensive line from 2011 through 2017, he made several disastrous personnel decisions with the full support of head coach Pete Carroll and general manager John Schneider. Cable's combination of wavering talent in evaluation and iffy coaching led to Seattle's offensive line declining to perhaps the worst unit in the league.

    So, as Raiders general manager Reggie McKenzie said, per Tafur, that Cable played a big part in the Miller pick on Thursday night, that should raise several red flags. Cable was able to double down on Friday when the Raiders took North Carolina A&T tackle Brandon Parker with the first pick in the third round. Parker, a massive blocker, stood out at the Senior Bowl when asked to play right tackle, but his tape—even against subpar competition—shows a player who's inconsistent in his pass set and needs a lot of technique work.

    So, after McKenzie brought in left tackle Donald Penn and center Rodney Hudson through free agency, and guard Gabe Jackson through the draft, as dominant players, the new ideology seems to be to overdraft based on potential and hope the coaching staff can work it all out. Based on Cable's history, the Raiders may have a long wait before that happens—if that happens at all.

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  • Pete and John have total control. That being said, they involve all the coaches and scouts and get their input. They’ve been clear about that since day one.

    The question is the degree of influence Cable had on a continuum of a little to a lot. Based on past statements, I’m inclined to think a lot. That still doesn’t mean “complete control” however, and never did.
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  • Cable drafted more Cable-ish linemen with Raiders.


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  • toffee wrote:Cable drafted more Cable-ish linemen with Raiders.


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    You make a very good point Toffee. I agree. The Raiders first round pick has Cable written all over it. I feel sorry for Kolton Miller. He has to work with subpar coach like Cable to start his NFL career.
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  • I look at it this way.

    Solari - see that guy 18 inches away from you, move him backwards on run plays, on pass plays don't let him get past you.

    Cable - see that guy across from you, ignore him and try to push that guy back two players to the left him on run plays, on pass plays go one guy to the right and get in front of him before he gets to Wilson.

    Except third down and long, then I want you to fall down so he has to jump over you.
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    chris98251
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  • I don’t doubt your assessment and it’s difficult to argue what we have seen on tape so many times. It true though why did Pete let it go on so long and why have the raiders hired him? I guess Time will tell. Unfortunately we open against a rejuvenated Von Miller that we can no longer afford to double team thanks to the addition of Bradley Chubb.
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    brimsalabim
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  • brimsalabim wrote:I don’t doubt your assessment and it’s difficult to argue what we have seen on tape so many times. It true though why did Pete let it go on so long and why have the raiders hired him? I guess Time will tell. Unfortunately we open against a rejuvenated Von Miller that we can no longer afford to double team thanks to the addition of Bradley Chubb.


    We have a tight end that can block now... so that should help and hopefully a running game to make teams do something other than end rush our QB. Plus.. who's Denver's QB? I think the biggest challenge in that game will be whether or not our new defense can hold up to the ground and pound from Royce Freeman.
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    Sox-n-Hawks
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  • Denver’s QB will be the one with no grass stains. You can’t stop Chubb and Miller with a TE. Bradley Chubb isn’t just a speed rusher around the ends. Look at some tape.
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  • brimsalabim wrote:Denver’s QB will be the one with no grass stains. You can’t stop Chubb and Miller with a TE. Bradley Chubb isn’t just a speed rusher around the ends. Look at some tape.


    I have, I love watching tape. He's good (J. Clowney good). I'm just saying that we have an opportunity to double team one or the other with a TE. With the addition of a guy like Kahlid Hill at FB we could do what great running teams have done and wreck DEs by running straight at them and keeping them frustrated. What impresses me most about Chubb is that I can't recall seeing him injured or even limping.
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  • Sox-n-Hawks wrote:
    brimsalabim wrote:Denver’s QB will be the one with no grass stains. You can’t stop Chubb and Miller with a TE. Bradley Chubb isn’t just a speed rusher around the ends. Look at some tape.


    I have, I love watching tape. He's good (J. Clowney good). I'm just saying that we have an opportunity to double team one or the other with a TE. With the addition of a guy like Kahlid Hill at FB we could do what great running teams have done and wreck DEs by running straight at them and keeping them frustrated. What impresses me most about Chubb is that I can't recall seeing him injured or even limping.

    With a guy Chubb who is damn good you just have to play away from him as possible.
    Of course You got other guys on that Denver D as well..Too bad RW isn't much for quick slants
    but he can rollout so there is that.
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