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Nick Vannett too tall for Schottenheimer ??

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  • A very weird angle they are talking about here on Vannett (a too tall TE sounds ridiculous to me), but if you read through it, it makes some sense.

    In addition to Dissly and Dickson, the Seahawks also have Tyrone Swoopes and the newly signed Clayton Wilson at the tight end position. The team has traditionally only carried three tight ends, so what are the odds that either Wilson or Swoopes beats out Vannett? What could either of those two bring that Vannett doesn’t have? The answer to that question may be as simple as height. Or rather, Vannett may simply be taller than new offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer prefers.


    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/5/15/17348536/nick-vannett-not-brian-schottenheimers-type-seattle-seahawks-tight-end-height-fullback
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  • Interesting. It does make sense that being taller could make it harder to get leverage while blocking. But with how tall the average lineman is these days, I don't see it as being as much of a problem was it was during the "Too Tall" Jones era.

    We'll see. We haven't seen much out of the position the last couple of years, blocking or receiving. They've added the bodies. Let's see if we can develop some production.

    Overall, though, this looks like it might be more click bait than anything else.
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  • sutz wrote:Interesting. It does make sense that being taller could make it harder to get leverage while blocking. But with how tall the average lineman is these days, I don't see it as being as much of a problem was it was during the "Too Tall" Jones era.

    We'll see. We haven't seen much out of the position the last couple of years, blocking or receiving. They've added the bodies. Let's see if we can develop some production.

    Overall, though, this looks like it might be more click bait than anything else.


    I'm not so sure about that. There is a reason we burned our 3rd pick (4th round) on another blocking TE after that was being sold to us when they took Vannett in the 3rd round just 2 years prior.
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  • I hope he's actually more open-minded and flexible than that. Willingness to adapt is what makes offenses capable of succeeding against more opponents and being more reliable.
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  • Correlation does not imply causation. The issue is blocking. Height is a red herring based on generalizations. There are some taller TEs who are good blockers. Rob Gonkowski is 6’6 and one of the best blocking TEs in the NFL. If Vannett improves as a blocker, he will play more. Vannett’s issue is that he began as a receiver first without attempting many blocks until his junior year at Ohio State. Some guys naturally like to hit and others don’t.
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  • purpleneer wrote:I hope he's actually more open-minded and flexible than that. Willingness to adapt is what makes offenses capable of succeeding against more opponents and being more reliable.


    That or possibly he used film to evaluate the position and identify a need to make his offense work better? Remember that Pete is hell bent on running the ball much better, and this (drafting Dissly) is likely a sign that Vannett wasn't cutting it there IMO.
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  • Seymour wrote:
    purpleneer wrote:I hope he's actually more open-minded and flexible than that. Willingness to adapt is what makes offenses capable of succeeding against more opponents and being more reliable.


    That or possibly he used film to evaluate the position and identify a need to make his offense work better? Remember that Pete is hell bent on running the ball much better, and this (drafting Dissly) is likely a sign that Vannett wasn't cutting it there IMO.

    I'm talking really more about sticking to a height preference, along with preferences in offensive style and playcalls. I have no problem with being down on Vannett if he's not good enough, though it's pretty tough to know that yet.
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  • It helps to have a thicker frame, a la Miller, Gronkowski, Dissly, etc. Sometimes taller TEs have more wiry frames with their weight more distributed, allowing them the quickness to run routes. Others are strong enough and play with good enough knee bend and leverage to be impactful blockers, regardless of their height. But the #1 trait I want to see in a blocking TE is the eagerness to hit someone.
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  • hawknation2018 wrote:Correlation does not imply causation. The issue is blocking. Height is a red herring based on generalizations. There are some taller TEs who are good blockers. Rob Gonkowski is 6’6 and one of the best blocking TEs in the NFL. If Vannett improves as a blocker, he will play more. Vannett’s issue is that he began as a receiver first without attempting many blocks until his junior year at Ohio State. Some guys naturally like to hit and others don’t.


    Thus the Dissly pick. Perhaps this will light a fire under Vannett to grow in this area.
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  • purpleneer wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    purpleneer wrote:I hope he's actually more open-minded and flexible than that. Willingness to adapt is what makes offenses capable of succeeding against more opponents and being more reliable.


    That or possibly he used film to evaluate the position and identify a need to make his offense work better? Remember that Pete is hell bent on running the ball much better, and this (drafting Dissly) is likely a sign that Vannett wasn't cutting it there IMO.

    I'm talking really more about sticking to a height preference, along with preferences in offensive style and playcalls. I have no problem with being down on Vannett if he's not good enough, though it's pretty tough to know that yet.


    To my knowledge, Schottenheimer has never stated a preference for TE height. The fieldgulls article is a somewhat faulty extrapolation of causation based on small sample correlation. It’s ridiculous to think that Swoopes would beat out Vannett because he’s shorter. In fact, from what I have observed, the opposite is true: Vannett is a significantly better run blocker than Swoopes, irrespective of height.
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  • It's odd that everyone seems to forget that when Vannett came out PC and JS said he was the best blocking TE in that draft. That he was the most complete TE in that draft.

    I think he's been buried on the depth chart behind 2 solid players. I think this is the year for him to prove he has what it takes. I reject the "He's too tall" nonsense. 1-2 inches don't make that much difference.

    You might have a better argument if you say he's cut to long... (everyone has different proportions that make up their height, some people have long legs short torso, other's shorter legs) If you're arguing this for Vannett- that he has extremely long legs in proportion to the rest making his center of gravity naturally higher. that would make more sense.

    I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I don't agree with the notion that we took Dissly because the coaches are disappointed with Vannett, I don't think they really look at it that way. I think they want to have strong TE depth and just want to add more competition to that group. I think in the end we'll have Dickson, Vannett and Dissly as our 3 TE's this year.
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  • I think this is pretty much the writing on the wall for Vannett. Being to tall just sounds like a lame excuse to me. I'll be really surprised if he makes this team.
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  • jlwaters1 wrote:It's odd that everyone seems to forget that when Vannett came out PC and JS said he was the best blocking TE in that draft. That he was the most complete TE in that draft.

    I think he's been buried on the depth chart behind 2 solid players. I think this is the year for him to prove he has what it takes. I reject the "He's too tall" nonsense. 1-2 inches don't make that much difference.

    You might have a better argument if you say he's cut to long... (everyone has different proportions that make up their height, some people have long legs short torso, other's shorter legs) If you're arguing this for Vannett- that he has extremely long legs in proportion to the rest making his center of gravity naturally higher. that would make more sense.

    I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I don't agree with the notion that we took Dissly because the coaches are disappointed with Vannett, I don't think they really look at it that way. I think they want to have strong TE depth and just want to add more competition to that group. I think in the end we'll have Dickson, Vannett and Dissly as our 3 TE's this year.


    There were those who disagreed with that assessment of Vannett's blocking at the time. I chalk it up, mostly, to analytics gone awry. It would probably be going too far to say that this illustrates a systemic problem with our front office's evaluation of blocking, generally.

    Vannett had a high percentage of successful blocks, but that was partly because of cunning usage. On tape, you could see that Vannett wasn't attempting certain blocks and also wasn't knocking guys back off the line of scrimmage. Even Vannett's former head coach, Urban Meyer, pushed back against the notion that he was a traditional Y-TE.

    Statistics can only tell part of the story. It reminds me of those who say Ed Dickson is the best blocking TE in the NFL; I know Schneider has never said those words, but I have read them elsewhere at an increasing frequency. I'm very much pro-stats, but you have to take them with a grain of salt.
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  • pittpnthrs wrote:I think this is pretty much the writing on the wall for Vannett. Being to tall just sounds like a lame excuse to me. I'll be really surprised if he makes this team.


    I would wager there is a 90% chance Vannett makes the roster. He's a solid route runner/ receiver and decent, but not exceptional, blocker. He's an upgrade over Luke Willson is most areas. And I think he will continue to develop as a blocker this season.
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  • In actuality, overall height isn't as important as shoulder height. That's where your power and leverage come from. That, and knee bend.

    I remember watching Russell Okung at Oklahoma State and it was amazing how low he could squat. It gave him immediate leverage. And it was all knee bend, not waist.
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  • To continue the board trend of over-analyzing workout photos, looks like Vannett has gotten bigger forearms, more defined biceps.

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  • There is a much larger population of prospective tight ends that measure under six foot six than there are prospects at six foot six and taller. If one wants to jump to an inference while narrowly focusing on a singular attribute, population size might be more productive. Most of the existing offense has been retained from last season. And, the same position coach returns. And then there are all those other attributes such as knee bend, flexibility. ect. ect. ect.

    It's a very shallow and silly article to fill in the void of the silly season.

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  • jlwaters1 wrote:It's odd that everyone seems to forget that when Vannett came out PC and JS said he was the best blocking TE in that draft. That he was the most complete TE in that draft.

    I think he's been buried on the depth chart behind 2 solid players. I think this is the year for him to prove he has what it takes. I reject the "He's too tall" nonsense. 1-2 inches don't make that much difference.

    You might have a better argument if you say he's cut to long... (everyone has different proportions that make up their height, some people have long legs short torso, other's shorter legs) If you're arguing this for Vannett- that he has extremely long legs in proportion to the rest making his center of gravity naturally higher. that would make more sense.

    I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I don't agree with the notion that we took Dissly because the coaches are disappointed with Vannett, I don't think they really look at it that way. I think they want to have strong TE depth and just want to add more competition to that group. I think in the end we'll have Dickson, Vannett and Dissly as our 3 TE's this year.


    Not only are they forgetting that, they are ignoring the fact I've stated that myself in this thread. It also doesn't mean that at 6'6" you cannot block, but more so that slightly shorter TE's are better at blocking (better leverage) and Schotty likes to use them at the FB position also.
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  • Seymour wrote:
    jlwaters1 wrote:It's odd that everyone seems to forget that when Vannett came out PC and JS said he was the best blocking TE in that draft. That he was the most complete TE in that draft.

    I think he's been buried on the depth chart behind 2 solid players. I think this is the year for him to prove he has what it takes. I reject the "He's too tall" nonsense. 1-2 inches don't make that much difference.

    You might have a better argument if you say he's cut to long... (everyone has different proportions that make up their height, some people have long legs short torso, other's shorter legs) If you're arguing this for Vannett- that he has extremely long legs in proportion to the rest making his center of gravity naturally higher. that would make more sense.

    I'm interested to see how this all plays out. I don't agree with the notion that we took Dissly because the coaches are disappointed with Vannett, I don't think they really look at it that way. I think they want to have strong TE depth and just want to add more competition to that group. I think in the end we'll have Dickson, Vannett and Dissly as our 3 TE's this year.


    Not only are they forgetting that, they are ignoring the fact I've stated that myself in this thread. It also doesn't mean that at 6'6" you cannot block, but more so that slightly shorter TE's are better at blocking (better leverage) and Schotty likes to use them at the FB position also.


    Not always the case, at all . . .

    Rob Gronkowski, Jason Witten, Martellus Bennett, Coby Fleener, etc.

    Hell, Marcedes Lewis at 6'6+ was the highest graded run blocking TE in the NFL last season.

    An inch taller or shorter means nothing if the player has the power, blocking fundamentals, and willingness.
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  • In terms of power, of course a rookie built like this may have an edge:

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  • Who cares who they keep or cut? The objective is to get a couple of guys that can do the job well. Doesn't matter to me whether it is Dissley, Vannet or Dickson. WE need production from the TE in terms of blocking AND receiving, I'll take it from any of these guys. However I will say that if neither Dissley or Vannett pan out, we need to look at our evaluation process.
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  • jlwaters1 wrote: I think he's been buried on the depth chart behind 2 solid players. I think this is the year for him to prove he has what it takes. I reject the "He's too tall" nonsense. 1-2 inches don't make that much difference.


    This. 100% this. Graham and Luke being here really didn't give him an opportunity to play too much. I've said before, the one thing that stuck out to me regarding Vannett is how natural he looks as a pass catcher. He's really fluid in his motions. With Graham and Luke gone, he he's finally getting his first shot at really playing time.

    I don't believe in the "Dissly being drafted is the writing on the wall for Vannett" nonsense. Did the Eagles drafting Dallas Goedert mean the writing is on the wall for Zach Ertz? Heck no! Some of it my come down to them keeping him away from Dallas, but the Eagles are a two TE heavy team. He fits what they want to do. Just like Dissly fits the need of blocking TE depth for the Seahawks.
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  • purpleneer wrote:I hope he's actually more open-minded and flexible than that. Willingness to adapt is what makes offenses capable of succeeding against more opponents and being more reliable.


    That's how I see it also....Diversity of talent and how to cash in and maximize with it.
    Vannett may not have been a good fit, but a good Coach can should be able to work a player with his measurable into a workable recipe.
    Vannett could maybe be utilized as more of a tall Receiver.....Hell, maybe more of a Joe Jurevicius type challenger.
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  • Thepeelsessions wrote:
    jlwaters1 wrote: I think he's been buried on the depth chart behind 2 solid players. I think this is the year for him to prove he has what it takes. I reject the "He's too tall" nonsense. 1-2 inches don't make that much difference.


    This. 100% this. Bevell and Cable being here really didn't give him an opportunity to play too much. I've said before, the one thing that stuck out to me regarding Vannett is how natural he looks as a pass catcher. He's really fluid in his motions. With Graham and Luke gone, he he's finally getting his first shot at really playing time.

    I don't believe in the "Dissly being drafted is the writing on the wall for Vannett" nonsense. Did the Eagles drafting Dallas Goedert mean the writing is on the wall for Zach Ertz? Heck no! Some of it my come down to them keeping him away from Dallas, but the Eagles are a two TE heavy team. He fits what they want to do. Just like Dissly fits the need of blocking TE depth for the Seahawks.


    There fixed it for you, Vannett never looked bad, Bevell just wanted Grahams presence and at 10 million had to use him somehow since he convinced Pete to go get him.
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  • Maybe height will be a deciding factor on who plays.

    But, I have several questions.
    1. Does Shotty play 2 TE sets? If, so what happens if Dickson or Dissly gets hurt? IMHO, PC wants to run the ball and he does not want injury to derail this objective.
    2. Dissly has great reviews as a blocker, but what happens if he struggles? Nice to have another blocking TE right?
    3. How's Dickson's contract structured? If Dissly and Vannett play well, perhaps they'll cut Dickson in 2019 and save $$$.
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  • Dickson can be cut after this season with just 1.7 dead cap. I think thy are hoping he’s a stopgap signing to get Dissly up to speed and as insurance. Not writing off Vannett, it will be a big year for him.
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  • Ah. Football.

    Over analysing whether an inch or two in height makes for a better blocker. Watch film and see and also line them up and actually see who is a better blocker.
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  • Thepeelsessions wrote:
    jlwaters1 wrote: I think he's been buried on the depth chart behind 2 solid players. I think this is the year for him to prove he has what it takes. I reject the "He's too tall" nonsense. 1-2 inches don't make that much difference.


    This. 100% this. Graham and Luke being here really didn't give him an opportunity to play too much. I've said before, the one thing that stuck out to me regarding Vannett is how natural he looks as a pass catcher. He's really fluid in his motions. With Graham and Luke gone, he he's finally getting his first shot at really playing time.

    I don't believe in the "Dissly being drafted is the writing on the wall for Vannett" nonsense. Did the Eagles drafting Dallas Goedert mean the writing is on the wall for Zach Ertz? Heck no! Some of it my come down to them keeping him away from Dallas, but the Eagles are a two TE heavy team. He fits what they want to do. Just like Dissly fits the need of blocking TE depth for the Seahawks.


    I think that's what we want to be. Utilyzing 2 TE formations or shifting 1 into the FB position. I think These 3 guys are going to really strengthen the team and help the Running game immensely.
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  • truehawksfan wrote:Maybe height will be a deciding factor on who plays.

    But, I have several questions.
    1. Does Shotty play 2 TE sets? If, so what happens if Dickson or Dissly gets hurt? IMHO, PC wants to run the ball and he does not want injury to derail this objective.
    2. Dissly has great reviews as a blocker, but what happens if he struggles? Nice to have another blocking TE right?
    3. How's Dickson's contract structured? If Dissly and Vannett play well, perhaps they'll cut Dickson in 2019 and save $$$.


    1. Yes, a whole lot.

    2. If Dissly disappoints they will have to hope Vannett can step up to the plate this season. He may absolutely shine under new coaching with genuine opportunity to see the field, who knows.

    3. If Dickson was cut in 2019 there would be a dead money charge of $1,733,334 with cap savings of $2,833,332. If he was cut in 2020 there would be dead money of $866,668 with cap savings of $3,400,000.
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  • Smellyman wrote:Ah. Football.

    Over analysing whether an inch or two in height makes for a better blocker. Watch film and see and also line them up and actually see who is a better blocker.


    To quote John Wooden, "It's not how big you are, it's how big you play."
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  • If we aren’t going to give him an honest shot to play we should consider trading him to the Bolts.
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  • brimsalabim wrote:If we aren’t going to give him an honest shot to play we should consider trading him to the Bolts.


    Don't believe everything you read. :D
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