Concerning our desire for more "Traditional Play" @ QB

I stole this quote from another thread, which got my brain gears turning, and as I continued to ramble, I realized maybe I was off topic in the original thread so I moved to create a new thread. Hope you don't mind the quote grab Spin Doctor.

Spin Doctor":2ph4p57h said:

.... I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.

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Read it all, but this is an extremely concise explanation for some of our displeasure with Wilson on occasion. For all of Pete's new age this and that, he's extremely traditional with his offensive philosophy. I think that is fine, when accompanied by a traditional QB. But he's been handed one of the most unique signal callers in NFL history...

It was really reinforced for me when I saw our OC hire. I love that he's more vocal and will put an emphasis on technique. I worry that some "established" technique is not suited to Wilson, though. Accepted QB technique has been honed and fine tuned over the years to take one of the least explosive athletes on the field (traditionally) and make him not only relevant, but the most important player on the field. Even the rules have been designed with this in mind.

An example: Wilson almost exclusively escapes with depth. This should not be eliminated but toned down tremendously. Not because we want one of the most athletic QBs in the NFL to climb the pocket, which at times emphasizes one of his few weaknesses (sight lines), more because we (I) would like to see what I call up/under movement. Teach the tackles to "run the DE by" and allow Wilson to hitch up and move horizontally to the LOS with shoulders parallel to be always in a "ready to throw" state. That is the big detriment to the depth escape, you cannot throw during this action. Routes are over, the defense has recovered, and now it's just a scramble drill. Wilson is a prime thrower on the run, learn how to emphasize it with design.

Sometimes we overlook the ramifications all over the field of something as simple as this concept. When you escape deep, you play right into the training of every DE since time immemorial, to push upfield with your pass rush and "close the gate" on the pocket, nothing outside of you. The DE is still doing his job even if Wilson manages to "get outside his contain leverage if he retreats 15 yards to do it. If Wilson learns to escape "up and under" that rush, you force the DE to slow his backfield climb, which eliminates his "usually" only advantage on the Tackle. His speed and athleticism. Once the DE has to "downshift", Wilson gets to stand in a pocket only threatened by DT's and blitzers. If they counter with OL/Safety spies to allow DE to rush uninhibited, you just designed a massive hole in pass coverage that Wilson should be taught to exploit with ferocity. Similar to the effect play action exploits, that initial "hold" before dropping to coverage, except that one could create this effect even blatantly showing pass pre snap, with Wilson never having to take his eyes away from downfield to execute a play fake (the play action weakness).

There is no QB more suited (maybe ever) to incorporate "Sprint Out" and "Mobile Pocket" concepts. The care with which Wilson avoids huge shots is amazing, and I think we've all witnessed him getting slobberknocked way more frequently from the traditional pocket than the open field.

Rolling all this back to our new OC. My fear is he stays so standard in scheme (with added run emphasis) that Wilson ages right out of some truly unique abilities that should be "got while the gettin is good". Wilson will lose speed as he ages, but elusiveness is not a very teachable thing that will fade much slower (especially at his position vs say RB) as time marches.

My hope is that Shotty can be very creative in allowing (Wilson to be Wilson) and instead helps him channel his talent in more productive ways... and the only reason we haven't seen it, is the quality of QB he has had as an OC to date (fingers crossed).

P.S. I expect some of the first responses to be focused on losing half the field when moving the QB horizontally. This can be compensated for with flood concepts and other play design wizardry. Another benefit of a "moving pocket" is allowing the non playside OL to play weak, meaning you design help to the roll side because Wilsons playside movement will "run away" from any weakside defensive "escapees". This is a bonus side effect allowing for additional help to one of our historical weaknesses during Wilsons reign, OL.

Sgt Largent":3szemzpm said:

I stole this quote from another thread, which got my brain gears turning, and as I continued to ramble, I realized maybe I was off topic in the original thread so I moved to create a new thread. Hope you don't mind the quote grab Spin Doctor.

Spin Doctor":3szemzpm said:

.... I really think Pete's offensive philosophy is holding Russ back as a player, and hindering his development.

Click to expand...

Read it all, but this is an extremely concise explanation for some of our displeasure with Wilson on occasion. For all of Pete's new age this and that, he's extremely traditional with his offensive philosophy. I think that is fine, when accompanied by a traditional QB. But he's been handed one of the most unique signal callers in NFL history...

It was really reinforced for me when I saw our OC hire. I love that he's more vocal and will put an emphasis on technique. I worry that some "established" technique is not suited to Wilson, though. Accepted QB technique has been honed and fine tuned over the years to take one of the least explosive athletes on the field (traditionally) and make him not only relevant, but the most important player on the field. Even the rules have been designed with this in mind.

An example: Wilson almost exclusively escapes with depth. This should not be eliminated but toned down tremendously. Not because we want one of the most athletic QBs in the NFL to climb the pocket, which at times emphasizes one of his few weaknesses (sight lines), more because we (I) would like to see what I call up/under movement. Teach the tackles to "run the DE by" and allow Wilson to hitch up and move horizontally to the LOS with shoulders parallel to be always in a "ready to throw" state. That is the big detriment to the depth escape, you cannot throw during this action. Routes are over, the defense has recovered, and now it's just a scramble drill. Wilson is a prime thrower on the run, learn how to emphasize it with design.

Sometimes we overlook the ramifications all over the field of something as simple as this concept. When you escape deep, you play right into the training of every DE since time immemorial, to push upfield with your pass rush and "close the gate" on the pocket, nothing outside of you. The DE is still doing his job even if Wilson manages to "get outside his contain leverage if he retreats 15 yards to do it. If Wilson learns to escape "up and under" that rush, you force the DE to slow his backfield climb, which eliminates his "usually" only advantage on the Tackle. His speed and athleticism. Once the DE has to "downshift", Wilson gets to stand in a pocket only threatened by DT's and blitzers. If they counter with OL/Safety spies to allow DE to rush uninhibited, you just designed a massive hole in pass coverage that Wilson should be taught to exploit with ferocity. Similar to the effect play action exploits, that initial "hold" before dropping to coverage, except that one could create this effect even blatantly showing pass pre snap, with Wilson never having to take his eyes away from downfield to execute a play fake (the play action weakness).

There is no QB more suited (maybe ever) to incorporate "Sprint Out" and "Mobile Pocket" concepts. The care with which Wilson avoids huge shots is amazing, and I think we've all witnessed him getting slobberknocked way more frequently from the traditional pocket than the open field.

Rolling all this back to our new OC. My fear is he stays so standard in scheme (with added run emphasis) that Wilson ages right out of some truly unique abilities that should be "got while the gettin is good". Wilson will lose speed as he ages, but elusiveness is not a very teachable thing that will fade much slower (especially at his position vs say RB) as time marches.

My hope is that Shotty can be very creative in allowing (Wilson to be Wilson) and instead helps him channel his talent in more productive ways... and the only reason we haven't seen it, is the quality of QB he has had as an OC to date (fingers crossed).

Click to expand...

Great post, I agree, we can add that Pete has said on more than one occasion they game plan for Wilsons scramble plays. Meaning they have it in their game plan for him to do this several times a game. It is part of their gameplan, which to me is the only time I have ever heard a coach cay a QB playing backyard football is in their game plan, This is just weird, and I believe has hurt Wilson development in some ways. Makes me wonder if his marching orders is to do just that in certain situations, or if certain plays are called knowing this will happen. Perhaps it is done on certain plays to buy time for the Wr to get open. Not sure but the fact they have it in the game plan is astounding to me. That said we have seen Wilson in 2015 do a more traditional offense and know he can. The question is can he merge the 2 and will Pete and the new OC allow him to.

Great write up.

As Wilson's career continues to develop, his speed will decline. It's simply natural that he's going to lose a step.

With his style of play, we will see more frequently him trying to make an amazing play, and get sacked for a huge loss or get called for intentional grounding and stall the entire drive. What Wilson should be trying to improve at is simply taking the 5 yard checkdown and move on to the next play, which Schottenheimer and Carroll are trying to teach him. If Wilson continues to rely on his athleticism and freelance ability, his career will be much shorter than if he were to commit himself to being a more conventional quarterback. If he truly wants to play for 15+ seasons, he's going to have to be more comfortable with stepping up in the pocket on a more consistent basis rather than bailing out so soon.

Read an article talking about Schotty working on the little things with Russell, like adjusting his base to hit suddenly open throwing lanes instead of looking to get outside. I doubt he will ever be a conventional QB, some of the biggest moments came from this backyard style, but there are things I hope become a staple that utilize his athleticism in a planned way instead of reactionary. Too often it felt the offense was responding to the defense instead of going after them.

I'm excited for the use of RB's more in the passing game, couple guys who are terrific in open space. Will also help keep drives alive when the OL goes full sieve and instead of Russell running 60 yards in the backfield to complete a 7 yard pass, there's a built in check down waiting.

I agree with a lot of this except IMO, many of RW's sacks are when a totally unblocked defender has a straight path at tackling him, often within 1-2 seconds after the snap. Most NFL plays can tolerate 1 or 2 guys not doing their exact assignments perfectly, however when 1/2/3 OL guys screw up in addition to that, sacks & TO's occur. It is not possible to always climb the pocket, when there is NO pocket. Obviously, at least to me, the bottom ranked OL is the majority of this problem & hopefully improves by scheme and new coaches this season.

RW operates extremely well in the read-pass option plays that we should see a lot more of this year, along with a vastly improved running game. Defenders will have to worry about multiple threats from the backfield, (combined with better OL play) and that should cool their jets a little and decrease RW's sack rate by quite a bit-IMO. In other words, if the OL can get their poop in a pile, the running game excels and the coaches do their jobs well - there should be a lot less of a concern about RW's sack rate. At least, that is my hope for this season. Just wait till y'all see what Rashaad Penny can and will do, coming soon...…………….

:smilingalien:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

chris98251":3ht6wq05 said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

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Agreed and when he does take the lid off we see incredible things. A lot of this is probably his can't win in the 1st, 2nd or 3rd mentality. Couple that with his turn over adverse nature and well there you go. Basically, he plays it close to the vest as can be until he has no choice. Or playing not to lose as opposed to playing to win. Not saying he does not want to win, but he plays conservative until he has no choice, perhaps that is a better way to say it.

Yes an up and coming OC / assistant building to a new age high powered high scoring move the QB around would have played to existing strengths

What we got was a OC that will play to the strengths that we (PC) WANT and then subsequently drafted for.

The HC and OC needs to be on the same page so I hope it works out but I agree on the overall assessment that the OC is not optimal for RW

mistaowen":15kp8nwj said:

...I doubt he will ever be a conventional QB, some of the biggest moments came from this backyard style, but there are things I hope become a staple that utilize his athleticism in a planned way instead of reactionary. Too often it felt the offense was responding to the defense instead of going after them....

Click to expand...

This is a pretty nice and concise summation of my rambling. We need to PLAN his movement instead of the defense dictating to us. If I'm a D Coordinator, it's immensely more profitable for me to know where the QB will be instead of gameplanning for one of a number of options. We need to put a lot more pressure on the D with scheme than we currently do, and we have a hugely unique QB to make that happen more than any other team in the league. Please show me you understand that, Mr. Schott...jingleheimersmith.

Sgt Largent":1f4ilych said:

mistaowen":1f4ilych said:

...I doubt he will ever be a conventional QB, some of the biggest moments came from this backyard style, but there are things I hope become a staple that utilize his athleticism in a planned way instead of reactionary. Too often it felt the offense was responding to the defense instead of going after them....

Click to expand...

This is a pretty nice and concise summation of my rambling. We need to PLAN his movement instead of the defense dictating to us. If I'm a D Coordinator, it's immensely more profitable for me to know where the QB will be instead of gameplanning for one of a number of options. We need to put a lot more pressure on the D with scheme than we currently do, and we have a hugely unique QB to make that happen more than any other team in the league. Please show me you understand that, Mr. Schott...jingleheimersmith.

Click to expand...

"Mr. Schott...jingleheimersmith" LOL

Pete Carroll views his offenses as a supplemental piece to his true baby, the defense. It has always been that way, and it will always be that way. What he wants is an offense that controls the clock, and limits the time of possession for the other team. What is confusing to me is how Carroll goes about implementing this kind of offense.

Pete seems to really value big plays on offense. Even at USC he had a thing for the deep ball, and explosive athletes. Yes the deep ball does open up running lanes, but if you're never able to connect the threat becomes hollow. As good as Russell Wilson is at throwing the deep ball -- if you see it coming every time it loses its effectiveness. The offensive ball we're trying to play looks more like the early 80s before the WCO offense really caught on, with a few modern concepts sprinkled in. We ran this same style of offense with Matt Hasselbeck at QB, a player who was an OG west coast offense disciple, and clearly not suited to this style of play.

What solidified this view for me is the hiring of Schottenheimer. He is a practitioner of the old school Air Coryelle system. Many iterations of this offense are still in use, but Schottenheimers is still stuck a few decades behind schedule. Even his major "innovation" the wild cat was a formation from the 50s and 60s.

Pete Carroll's offensive vision has no place in the modern NFL, especially if controlling the ball is your main goal. I'm not saying his view point is wrong, I'm saying how he is going about doing so runs contrary to the mission he is trying to accomplish on offense. We don't need to be the Patriots, but we do need to open up our passing game. The deep ball is a garnish, it isn't meant to be what an entire passing offense is predicated on.

So, what should Carroll be doing to accomplish his goal? More short passes, and stretching the field vertically as well as horizontally. I'm talking more slants, and quick hits. Passes that are essentially like long hand offs. The only thing we had here was the bubble screen, and we were awful at designing these. We need more check downs, and hot routes. Our current system contains very little of both of these. If no one gets open, good luck Wilson, time to dance. We very rarely have an outlet. We need more misdirection plays like screens. Whenever we ran those last year we had great success. Unfortunately we rarely ran those.

Last but not least, trust your dang QB Pete. We're still treating Russell Wilson like he is on training wheels. He does not have as much responsibility at the LOS as other QBs. In fact, it is as if it seems that Carroll and Bevell went to great lengths to not give him the opportunity to work here. Plays would always come in at the last possible moment. When Wilson did his best work he was making the line calls, and he was active at the LOS (2015). We had Patrick Lewis as our starting center because we traded away Unger. Wilson had to make all of the line calls because we put a guy in place that didn't really have a firm grasp on the system. He had a few hiccups here, but he demonstrated that he was able to do good work in this capacity.

We're calling an offense that is only capitalizing on one element of our diverse QB's skillset (scrambling, deepball). As a result Carroll is stymieing our QB's growth. We need to set up moving pockets, and more designed throws on the run. We need to emphasize fundamentals and pocket movement for Russ. The scrambling is exciting but it also causes many missed opportunities, and leads to offense stagnation. It is that time in Russ's career that we give him the freedom to thrive. Unfortunately we will never get that under Pete, and that may be his biggest fault as head coach.

Re: Concerning our desire for more "Traditional Play" @ QB

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I'd like to know who this subject line refers to. Is this a quote from someone? Who has this desire? Certainly not me or most Seahawks fans. In fact our desire is to take the governor off of our QB to watch his "untraditional Play" brilliance lead the team to another great season.

Sgt Largent":12pnclhm said:

mistaowen":12pnclhm said:

...I doubt he will ever be a conventional QB, some of the biggest moments came from this backyard style, but there are things I hope become a staple that utilize his athleticism in a planned way instead of reactionary. Too often it felt the offense was responding to the defense instead of going after them....

Click to expand...

This is a pretty nice and concise summation of my rambling. We need to PLAN his movement instead of the defense dictating to us. If I'm a D Coordinator, it's immensely more profitable for me to know where the QB will be instead of gameplanning for one of a number of options. We need to put a lot more pressure on the D with scheme than we currently do, and we have a hugely unique QB to make that happen more than any other team in the league. Please show me you understand that, Mr. Schott...jingleheimersmith.

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There it is in a nutshell. Completely agree and I've wondered for years why we don't. He's proven and shown over and over again his strengths, yet they rarely "go to it" unless they are forced into it and then amazing things happen. Many blamed Bevell for that, but I'm more convinced this is Pete. Help the guy out by using his strengths! Pete has been known to do that at many other positions, but irritatingly not at QB??

CamanoIslandJQ":1c59jx7l said:

I agree with a lot of this except IMO, many of RW's sacks are when a totally unblocked defender has a straight path at tackling him, often within 1-2 seconds after the snap. Most NFL plays can tolerate 1 or 2 guys not doing their exact assignments perfectly, however when 1/2/3 OL guys screw up in addition to that, sacks & TO's occur. It is not possible to always climb the pocket, when there is NO pocket.

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An unblocked defender can come from a RB missing his assignment or the QB not sliding protection right, as much as it can from a bad lineman.

I've also seen Wilson run himself into an innumerable number of sacks by getting outside his own linemen, and honestly, sometimes he scrambles without being pressured at all. He just doesn't like being in the pocket, and it's obviously because he can't see in there.

I think I've said this before, but Wilson is the most high variance great QB I've probably ever seen.

I think there's stil lthe chance for him to have an early 30s game retool like Ben Rapes did, but equally or more likely is that like most QBs he is who he is at this point, and trying to tinker with him or adjust him into an offense that doesn't maximize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses will just hurt his overall production.

The league is increasingly (and finally) moving in the direction of catering offenses to QB's strengths and minimizing their weaknesses.* We clearly saw it in action with the Eagles' transition from Wentz to Foles last year, with the Texans obsessively retooling their offense around Watson, with the Saints changing their offense as Brees has aged (the Pats have done the same thing), with the Panthers losing their way by trying to make Newton into a player he's not last year, and so on.

Long story short, Rodgers is probably the only QB in the league that I think you could drop into any offense with equal effectiveness, and even with that you'd have to tolerate some of his quirks that you'd be better off minimizing (e.g. not overly relying on force plays because of his habit of skipping past open reads, not overly-relying on only timing based plays -- he can do it, but it takes away from some of what makes him great --, etc.).

Re; Wilson, the thing I don't think Seahawks fans will probably agree with me on is really about Bevell. Hawks fans hate Bevell, but a fair amount of what I saw from Bevell was an effort to accentuate Wilson's strengths and minimize his weaknesses. Long story short, if it was my money I wouldn't try to tinker with Wilson too much, or try to force him into being a player that he isn't. We've already seen the Hawks experiment with that a little bit, and so far it hasn't worked.





*An example of the reverse is Kyle Shanahan, who I really like obviously, but who at this point is kind of a dinosaur depsite being young, as he makes QBs (and all offensive players, really) bend to his offense much more than he bends his offense to his QB (why he's stupidly lucky to have stumbled onto JGQ, who seems to fit what he wants to do reasonably well, but also why he ends up dramatically overpaying for guys like Beathard, McKinnon, Juice, etc.).

Bevell never used layered route trees, the deep and intermediate crossing and hooks, we rarely used the seam to the TE, we had the best pass catching TE in the league and would not use them. We never used motion to make the defense adjust coverage and mask routes. These are all things that would have helped big time let alone figuring out how to run a actual screen to a RB. That's hard to do granted when your lineman are flopping on the ground like beached whales but still.

To have a "Traditional" looking QB you need to have plays that give him a chance for that look.

If Pete has the guts to keep his nose out of the offense and let Schotty call plays and design plays that take advantage of a what a defense can't defend instead of trying to force a certain type of play down their throats when it's proven we can't run it or that a defense has it scouted and shut it down we will be much more productive.

chris98251":2oriftzq said:

Pete is a enigma, he Coached in Minny for Bud Grant, they had a powerful defense but a pretty wide open offense as well with a guy that was considered a somewhat mobile QB at the time, why Pete doesn't take the lid off Wilson is perplexing.

Click to expand...

Not sure why people think it's Pete and not Russell.

Pete's had numerous drop back pocket QB's, both in the pros and at USC.........and all VERY successful, to tune of multiple Heisman's.

IMO this is a Russell issue, not a Pete issue. I'm sure Pete would love for Russell to take his 3-5 step drops, go through his progressions and get the ball out on time.

But that's not who Russell is, nor who he's ever been. He's a tempo/rhythm QB that relies on his feet to buy time and find open receivers. It's a messier style of offense that sometimes is a detriment to his line and receivers not knowing what's going on.

So that's what you're seeing, and again IMO it's not Pete or a coordinator thing, it's a Russell thing.

I firmly believe the Reid/Pederson style of offense would accentuate Wilson's strengths and hide his weaknesses far more than what Bev was doing.

Throw in McVay and Shanny, though Wilson's out of pocket shenanigans might drive him insane.

adeltaY":2m7lfo52 said:

I firmly believe the Reid/Pederson style of offense would accentuate Wilson's strengths and hide his weaknesses far more than what Bev was doing.

Throw in McVay and Shanny, though Wilson's out of pocket shenanigans might drive him insane.

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I think this is what Pete and Schottenheimer are trying to figure out with Russell, and why we've heard from all involved that they want to get back to the pound the rock and play action..........which is what suits Russell best.

btw, I also think that's what Bevell and Pete have been trying to do, just not successfully because our line stunk and we couldn't find a RB to replace Marshawn.

But again, to pin this on Pete, or Pete and Bevell makes no sense to me.

MontanaHawk05":2zvjtpy6 said:

CamanoIslandJQ":2zvjtpy6 said:

I agree with a lot of this except IMO, many of RW's sacks are when a totally unblocked defender has a straight path at tackling him, often within 1-2 seconds after the snap. Most NFL plays can tolerate 1 or 2 guys not doing their exact assignments perfectly, however when 1/2/3 OL guys screw up in addition to that, sacks & TO's occur. It is not possible to always climb the pocket, when there is NO pocket.

Click to expand...

An unblocked defender can come from a RB missing his assignment or the QB not sliding protection right, as much as it can from a bad lineman.

I've also seen Wilson run himself into an innumerable number of sacks by getting outside his own linemen, and honestly, sometimes he scrambles without being pressured at all. He just doesn't like being in the pocket, and it's obviously because he can't see in there.

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I disagree it is not obvious he can't see in there, that is just conjecture. Also again you don't know what he is seeing, what the play call is or anything. You just know to you he is doing something he should not. However just because you don't think he should do it, does not mean he should not or your right. Until we find out all the nuances of the plays in question we will never know, and where you stand on this will depend on if you want to find a reason to complain about him and his play or if you don't. I too think at times he leaves a pocket early, but I can't say for sure because I am not seeing what he sees, and I don't know what his marching orders were. So I Tend to trust that for the most part, he is doing what he should do. Given the facts, we do know, amongst the most hit, sacked, pressured and hurried QBs in the league the very very few times he might do something you think is not right is understandable.