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Wilson is not Elite

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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:40 pm
  • No QB can win without an oline/run game and defense... short of the Brady, Rodgers, generational types, etc...

    Do I still consider the guys who can win with run game/defense elite? Sure. To me Russ is still in that 5-10 range for sure. Is he the best of the best? Not for me, but he's very good. Top 10 Qbs are still hard to find.

    Brees could always win shoot outs but other than the SB year, they've always been between 7-9 and 10-6 with incredible home field advantage; now New Orleans has him mostly throwing 20-30 times per game with good defense and running game. He is even more efficient now even though the stats aren't as good.

    Look at Dak Prescott in his rookie season.. They could run at all will with Zeke and that line... Now their line looks slightly above average instead of incredibly dominant, and Prescott looks average or worse. It's nearly impossible for QBs to overcome line weakness and defense and still contend for a SB every year... Rodgers and Brady are the only current players I can think of who can do it.

    Look at Blake Bortles... last year they had the best defense and running game in the league, and he looked pretty decent. The year before that they didn't and he look bad.. This year he looks awful.. It is amazing how much those factors impact a QB...

    Russ can win without a running game... we've seen it, so he is better than most, and when he does have both of those things, because of his "clutch" factor and mobility, there's very few QBs I'd rather have than Russ.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:53 pm
  • How many Super Bowls has Brady and or Rodgers won without a running game threat and a decent defense?

    Probably as many as Wilson, Belichek makes things happen on defense and always has a back that surprises when he is winning Super Bowls.


    Rodgers, well it's been a while hasn't it, no running game and then no defense and now it seems a defense that isn't putting fear in anyone's heart and who's their back again?
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:08 pm
  • Tom Brady needed help from Brandon Browner, Darrell Bevel, and Tom Cable to beat Russell Wilson in the Super Bowl.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:09 pm
  • Ill tell ya why he is an elite QB... Because no matter what the situation he always thinks he can beat it. If you look back at his games the past few years the play off game in Greenbay comes to mind as a perfect example... the Hawks are rarely out of a game. most games they have the opportunity to win with the exception of the Rams last year I can not remember a game they were not in position to win... RW has a lot to do with that...


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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:21 pm
  • When I see a thread like this, I want to pass it by. Not only do I disagree with the topic's premise (and intent), I just don't think it's worth debating/arguing over.

    But then I got sucked in and as much as I tried to turn away, I became that driver who slowed down enough to count the number of wrecked cars on the side of the road (and hoping no one killed each other).
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:40 pm
  • This same thread title pops up a few times a season. He’s been one of the best clutch QBs in the league for 6 years now and our team would struggle without him. In the 4th there’s not too many you’d rather have than him. At the same token, it’s perfectly fine to objectively say he played very poorly yesterday and the Chicago game too. A lot of folks get way too bent out of shape if anyone ever criticizes him. No coach, player or even fan is above objective critique.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:18 pm
  • I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:26 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.


    Remember the int Hass threw in the playoff game in overtime against GB?

    i guarantee Wilson already forgot about it already


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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:36 pm
  • I am not sure why some still consider him elite. He is a decent qb, that does well in 2 minute offense. Unfortunately some fans choose to forget how terrible he plays, (on regular bases!) in 95% of the game.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:48 pm
  • Tical21 wrote:I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.


    See Cousins, Kirk... last week vs Saints.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:00 pm
  • northseahawk wrote:I am not sure why some still consider him elite. He is a decent qb, that does well in 2 minute offense. Unfortunately some fans choose to forget how terrible he plays, (on regular bases!) in 95% of the game.


    Well help Mr Wizard and explain how one could play terrible 95% of the time, yet have a perfect 158.3 game 1 week prior? Pathetic exaggerated analogy.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:18 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    northseahawk wrote:I am not sure why some still consider him elite. He is a decent qb, that does well in 2 minute offense. Unfortunately some fans choose to forget how terrible he plays, (on regular bases!) in 95% of the game.


    Well help Mr Wizard and explain how one could play terrible 95% of the time, yet have a perfect 158.3 game 1 week prior? Pathetic exaggerated analogy.


    Well, he is only second in all-time quarterback rating, behind Aaron Rodgers and ahead of Tom Brady.

    Rank Quarterback Rating
    1 Aaron Rodgers 103.6
    2 Russell Wilson 99.6
    3 Tom Brady 97.6
    4 Drew Brees 97.3

    Oh, that's all-time, too. Not current active players. All players. What a horribly mediocre quarterback, indeed. Imagine how much better he'd look if he played less than terrible more than 5% of the time.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:57 pm
  • Thank you for the stats.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:21 pm
  • A Russell Wilson game is never boring.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:25 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:How many Super Bowls has Brady and or Rodgers won without a running game threat and a decent defense?

    Probably as many as Wilson, Belichek makes things happen on defense and always has a back that surprises when he is winning Super Bowls.


    Rodgers, well it's been a while hasn't it, no running game and then no defense and now it seems a defense that isn't putting fear in anyone's heart and who's their back again?


    First of all my point wasn't SB wins, it was a team that could threaten to win the SB every year. Brady has been to 8 SBs and aside from the 1st one they've never been a top defense. They've been respectable at times, but never been known for their defense.

    Out of those 8 times, they've never had "running the ball" be what they're known for offensively. Brady takes what the defenses are willing to give, and often they won't stack the box.

    Unlike Wilson, where you can very easily tell that they need to be able to establish the run in order to thrive.

    The Pats look like the best team in the NFL right now and their defense is not in the top 15 in the league, and their leading traditional rusher has been out two weeks.

    I can't believe you're arguing that Wilson is as good as Brady :177692:
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:18 am
  • Belichek is known for his defenses, he had a hell of a defensive front for years with Wilfolk and great Linebackers in McGinest (OLB)Vrabel (OLB)Bruschi (ILB)Phifer (ILB) there for years as well. He had several RB's that he was able to use Dillon for a few years, Blount, Antowain Smith and then the WR's, he has always embraced the TE's and used them. with McDaniel's and Weiss.


    Bradys fame is more his demeanor and fighter mentality, when his line sucked he took beatings and his team respected it, they quickly made sure they shored it up and fired a Oline coach or two also.


    But go ahead and say he has not had a good team around him when he has been able to get to the dance.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:51 am
  • I love how those on here who share the opinion of most outside this fan base are considered ignorant on the game of football. Ever think that your blind optimism is based off your fandom of this team? Wilson’s stats the last 2 years have been skewed from constantly being behind against good teams going into the 4th quarter. Those teams go into Prevent which allows Wilson to do something he struggled with the entire game. Move the ball down the field through the Air. Yes he puts up good numbers against bad teams but so does Niners 3rd string QB. Wilson needs the threat of a running game or he struggles mightily. That’s not the case with 1st or 2nd Tier Qb’s. It’s not Wilson’s fault he was born short. It’s his athletic ability and soft touch deep balls that make him successful. His vision to read the field is a major downfall. There was receivers wide open all day Sunday. Wilson simply can’t see them. Wilson will never be Brees. As Wilsons athletic ability diminishes so will most of his game. He peaked in 2013. Now the league has him figured out. Well equipped good teams will give us the same results as Sunday. The final score didn’t represent what happened on Sunday. The moment Carson went out our Offense went to crap. Wilson needs help and that’s ok. Pay him that way. If this team gives him Elite money forget about ever sniffing another SB let alone the playoffs.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:10 am
  • RCATES wrote:I love how those on here who share the opinion of most outside this fan base are considered ignorant on the game of football.


    Who are you referring to?

    Ever think that your blind optimism is based off your fandom of this team?


    Who are you referring to?

    Pay him that way.


    Wilson won't accept significantly lower than market value, and I don't blame him. That's not a thing.

    If this team gives him Elite money forget about ever sniffing another SB let alone the playoffs.


    This team may never make it to the Super Bowl in my lifetime, much less win one, no matter how good the rosters are. The All-Universe, "do everything right" Patriots have won two whole Super Bowls in the last 13 seasons. That is the best any team has done over that span. Saying a team won't get to/win a a Super Bowl is an easy sell. 93.75% of the teams in the NFL manage to not do that. Every single year.

    Do you really think they won't ever make the playoffs with Wilson under a big contract? That's a pretty tough sell, given that about a third of the teams get in every year. I'd imagine Wilson has at least five years in him as a starter when he goes under his new contract, and only four NFL teams haven't been the the playoffs in over four years (Browns, Bucs, Jets, Bears).
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:19 am
  • Tical21 wrote:I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.


    All that pick came down to was mistaking zone for man. It's a poorly designed play. QB's get fooled on man vs zone not infrequently. If that mistake leads to a pick six its a bad play design. Given it has no motion to identify zone vs man, it really makes it doubly bad.

    The zone beaters were run on the other side of the field and should have been Wilson's go to if he's interpreted the coverage correctly. As soon as the CB realizes that Wilson thinks its man coverage, he knows he can freely buzz under to the out route and get a pick six.

    Schotty needs to work on his man beaters to have them not lead to a pick six if the read is wrong. Rub routes are much better man beaters that rarely get picked even if its zone. 6 yd outs get destroyed if its zone.

    Anyway, it was a bad interception but Dak's pick in the end zone throwing into double bracket coverage is just as bad. And I'm sure there's been an interception thrown into triple coverage at least once this year. Those are worse than Russ'.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:32 am
  • West TX Hawk wrote:This same thread title pops up a few times a season. He’s been one of the best clutch QBs in the league for 6 years now and our team would struggle without him. In the 4th there’s not too many you’d rather have than him. At the same token, it’s perfectly fine to objectively say he played very poorly yesterday and the Chicago game too. A lot of folks get way too bent out of shape if anyone ever criticizes him. No coach, player or even fan is above objective critique.



    Don't think any of us are arguing that he had a bad game. We are arguing that he is not a bad QB. Very different. I can objectively say he had a bad game but in reality it was largely just 5 plays. One bad read, one short armed throw, one throw behind his receiver, two coverage sacks. Pretty sure Wagner had 5 plays that were bad.

    You always notice the QB because he touches the ball all the time. Makes them the lightning rod for both wins and losses.
    He was almost perfect in Detroit and he was less than perfect this last weekend. None of that defines him as good, bad or elite. HIs body of work defines that and it certainly points in the good to elite range more than it does the bad range.

    But feel free to say he had a bad game. I'll support that whole heartedly. Feel free to say he's not elite, I can support that if you state your requirements for "elite". Can't argue that point without some frame of reference. But saying he's a bad QB or mediocre or game manager. I have a problem with that because there are a ton of QB's worse than RW and the bar for good can't be "anyone worse than Brady, Rodgers or Brees".
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:53 am
  • Mad Dog wrote:
    Tical21 wrote:I'm really not sure any other starting qb in the league will throw as bad of an interception all year as that pick-6.


    All that pick came down to was mistaking zone for man. It's a poorly designed play. QB's get fooled on man vs zone not infrequently. If that mistake leads to a pick six its a bad play design. Given it has no motion to identify zone vs man, it really makes it doubly bad.

    The zone beaters were run on the other side of the field and should have been Wilson's go to if he's interpreted the coverage correctly. As soon as the CB realizes that Wilson thinks its man coverage, he knows he can freely buzz under to the out route and get a pick six.

    Schotty needs to work on his man beaters to have them not lead to a pick six if the read is wrong. Rub routes are much better man beaters that rarely get picked even if its zone. 6 yd outs get destroyed if its zone.

    Anyway, it was a bad interception but Dak's pick in the end zone throwing into double bracket coverage is just as bad. And I'm sure there's been an interception thrown into triple coverage at least once this year. Those are worse than Russ'.


    FOOTBALL Post of The Week.
    Thank you for the analysis. I also read your post somewhere on this board where you mentioned that OMG moment where you could tell that Russ was thinking it was Man when the Chargers were actually in Zone.

    That pick-6 vs Chargers looked nearly identical to the one Russ threw in the 4th quarter against Chicago.
    Was it the same scenario then, Wilson misreading the coverage?

    It looks like Russell and Schotty have to put their heads together and figure this out. The pick is as much on our OC.
    Schotty has to understand how Wilson's mind works and design his plays to give Russell the information he needs to make correct reads, or at least avoid disastrous mis-reads like those two highly similar game-killing pick-6's.

    I'd like think that by now Russell and Schotty have gone over film of those 2 pick-6's a couple hundred times, Russell knows clearly his mistakes on those, Schotty has burned the pages of the playbook with that play and replaced them with ones that give Russell a "tell", e.g. motion to that side, or something... and that we won't ever see THAT same mistake. IIRC someone said Russell now has 3 pick-6's in his *career*. Well then, 2 of them are this year on highly similar plays, in the Schottenheimer offense. Also, apparently Bevell knew about *this* blind spot in Wilson's game, but Schotty is just now learning. And of course, a younger, faster Wilson was a big reason for fewer pick-6's, as Russell numerous times chased down the intercepting player and made the tackle.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:19 am
  • Phillip Rivers is not elite ...... without a running game and credible defense.

    Most quarterbacks need a running game to get into a rhythm that keeps defenses off balance and unable to restrict it to a one dimensional effort. We see that in quarterbacks that experience high variance seasons. Our own PopeyeJones described Russell Wilson as one of the most high variance quarterbacks in the league. I think that is a useful description. In prior years, I thought of Phillip Rivers play as highly variable. In the past, the Chargers relied far to much on Rivers and his preferred shot gun preference to carry the day. The Chargers proved that doesn't work. As emotional as Rivers is, he sure looked solid and confident on Sunday.

    Phillip Rivers clearly thrives with a complementary running game and the support of a credible defense to get him back on the field. The height of Rivers plane of vision opens up opportunities for quick passes as well as an emphasis on all those crossing routes. Those crossing routes and an effective running game pulls the coverage in and opens up the back end for explosive receptions ..... which in turn opens up explosive runs thru the interior and outside via jet sweeps. Chargers fans should really be happy now that they have a more balanced offense and a supportive defense. Although, they do need to fix special teams prior to the playoffs.

    P.S. Although all quarterbacks have particularly poor games from time to time. The silver lining is those bad outings provide plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Russell Wilson isn't going to grow another five or six inches in height. But his game is going to evolve around his unique assets and become more formidable as he matures.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:20 am
  • bmorepunk wrote:
    RCATES wrote:I love how those on here who share the opinion of most outside this fan base are considered ignorant on the game of football.


    Who are you referring to?

    Ever think that your blind optimism is based off your fandom of this team?


    Who are you referring to?

    Pay him that way.


    Wilson won't accept significantly lower than market value, and I don't blame him. That's not a thing.

    If this team gives him Elite money forget about ever sniffing another SB let alone the playoffs.


    This team may never make it to the Super Bowl in my lifetime, much less win one, no matter how good the rosters are. The All-Universe, "do everything right" Patriots have won two whole Super Bowls in the last 13 seasons. That is the best any team has done over that span. Saying a team won't get to/win a a Super Bowl is an easy sell. 93.75% of the teams in the NFL manage to not do that. Every single year.

    Do you really think they won't ever make the playoffs with Wilson under a big contract? That's a pretty tough sell, given that about a third of the teams get in every year. I'd imagine Wilson has at least five years in him as a starter when he goes under his new contract, and only four NFL teams haven't been the the playoffs in over four years (Browns, Bucs, Jets, Bears).


    Most fans in the NFL that aren't Seahawk fans believe Wilson was carried by Lynch and a generational defense when Seattle was considered a contender. Since the departure of Lynch that has clearly been the case. Even now with a formidable defense this team is still sitting at 4-4. 9-7 last year. So that assumption that Wilson needs a lot of help has merit. Watching Wilson with a open mind ignoring the fact of being a Seattle fan would likely make most of us fans see it as well. Wilson looked absolutely lost out there on Sunday before Chargers went into Prevent late in the 4th. Is this acceptable for a guy getting paid top 5 QB money and in his 7th year? Being a real fan and acting like you've been there before requires holding Wilson accountable for his regression as a QB. Sadly most Seahawk fans are new and think Wilson is everything that he is clearly not. We'll revisit this in a few weeks when we're sitting at 4-6.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:26 am
  • Jville wrote:Phillip Rivers is not elite ...... without a running game and credible defense.

    Most quarterbacks need a running game to get into a rhythm that keeps defenses off balance and unable to restrict it to a one dimensional effort. We see that in quarterbacks that experience high variance seasons. Our own PopeyeJones described Russell Wilson as one of the most high variance quarterbacks in the league. I think that is a useful description. In prior years, I thought of Phillip Rivers play as highly variable. In the past, the Chargers relied far to much on Rivers and his preferred shot gun preference to carry the day. The Chargers proved that doesn't work. As emotional as Rivers is, he sure looked solid and confident on Sunday.

    Phillip Rivers clearly thrives with a complementary running game and the support of a credible defense to get him back on the field. The height of Rivers plane of vision opens up opportunities for quick passes as well as an emphasis on all those crossing routes. Those crossing routes and an effective running game pulls the coverage in and opens up the back end for explosive receptions ..... which in turn opens up explosive runs thru the interior and outside via jet sweeps. Chargers fans should really be happy now that they have a more balanced offense and a supportive defense. Although, they do need to fix special teams prior to the playoffs.

    P.S. Although all quarterbacks have particularly poor games from time to time. The silver lining is those bad outings provide plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Russell Wilson isn't going to grow another five or six inches in height. But his game is going to evolve around his unique assets and become more formidable as he matures.


    We would have 4 Lombardi's if Rivers was leading this team from 2012-15. No doubt about it.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:41 am
  • RCATES wrote:
    Jville wrote:Phillip Rivers is not elite ...... without a running game and credible defense.

    Most quarterbacks need a running game to get into a rhythm that keeps defenses off balance and unable to restrict it to a one dimensional effort. We see that in quarterbacks that experience high variance seasons. Our own PopeyeJones described Russell Wilson as one of the most high variance quarterbacks in the league. I think that is a useful description. In prior years, I thought of Phillip Rivers play as highly variable. In the past, the Chargers relied far to much on Rivers and his preferred shot gun preference to carry the day. The Chargers proved that doesn't work. As emotional as Rivers is, he sure looked solid and confident on Sunday.

    Phillip Rivers clearly thrives with a complementary running game and the support of a credible defense to get him back on the field. The height of Rivers plane of vision opens up opportunities for quick passes as well as an emphasis on all those crossing routes. Those crossing routes and an effective running game pulls the coverage in and opens up the back end for explosive receptions ..... which in turn opens up explosive runs thru the interior and outside via jet sweeps. Chargers fans should really be happy now that they have a more balanced offense and a supportive defense. Although, they do need to fix special teams prior to the playoffs.

    P.S. Although all quarterbacks have particularly poor games from time to time. The silver lining is those bad outings provide plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Russell Wilson isn't going to grow another five or six inches in height. But his game is going to evolve around his unique assets and become more formidable as he matures.


    We would have 4 Lombardi's if Rivers was leading this team from 2012-15. No doubt about it
    .


    Oh ya...Rivers would have at least 4, likely more! We could dominate the entire galaxy with Philip throwing picks at the same rate as TD's. :177692: :pukeface:

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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:44 am
  • RCATES wrote:
    Jville wrote:Phillip Rivers is not elite ...... without a running game and credible defense.

    Most quarterbacks need a running game to get into a rhythm that keeps defenses off balance and unable to restrict it to a one dimensional effort. We see that in quarterbacks that experience high variance seasons. Our own PopeyeJones described Russell Wilson as one of the most high variance quarterbacks in the league. I think that is a useful description. In prior years, I thought of Phillip Rivers play as highly variable. In the past, the Chargers relied far to much on Rivers and his preferred shot gun preference to carry the day. The Chargers proved that doesn't work. As emotional as Rivers is, he sure looked solid and confident on Sunday.

    Phillip Rivers clearly thrives with a complementary running game and the support of a credible defense to get him back on the field. The height of Rivers plane of vision opens up opportunities for quick passes as well as an emphasis on all those crossing routes. Those crossing routes and an effective running game pulls the coverage in and opens up the back end for explosive receptions ..... which in turn opens up explosive runs thru the interior and outside via jet sweeps. Chargers fans should really be happy now that they have a more balanced offense and a supportive defense. Although, they do need to fix special teams prior to the playoffs.

    P.S. Although all quarterbacks have particularly poor games from time to time. The silver lining is those bad outings provide plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Russell Wilson isn't going to grow another five or six inches in height. But his game is going to evolve around his unique assets and become more formidable as he matures.


    We would have 4 Lombardi's if Rivers was leading this team from 2012-15. No doubt about it.


    But then again ....... Rivers likely would have realized a very similar career and results in Seattle because of the same trap of dependence. The down side of investing in exceptional talent is that teams can become far too dependent on "Jim Dandy to the rescue". That is a sentiment that is held by many Charger fans during Rivers career.

    P.S. When thinking about the most important position on the field in today's style of football, it is too easy to lose sight of the other 21 men on the field. As accommodating as today's style is by rule for quarterbacks, it remains a team game at it's heart.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:01 am
  • Seymour wrote:
    RCATES wrote:
    Jville wrote:Phillip Rivers is not elite ...... without a running game and credible defense.

    Most quarterbacks need a running game to get into a rhythm that keeps defenses off balance and unable to restrict it to a one dimensional effort. We see that in quarterbacks that experience high variance seasons. Our own PopeyeJones described Russell Wilson as one of the most high variance quarterbacks in the league. I think that is a useful description. In prior years, I thought of Phillip Rivers play as highly variable. In the past, the Chargers relied far to much on Rivers and his preferred shot gun preference to carry the day. The Chargers proved that doesn't work. As emotional as Rivers is, he sure looked solid and confident on Sunday.

    Phillip Rivers clearly thrives with a complementary running game and the support of a credible defense to get him back on the field. The height of Rivers plane of vision opens up opportunities for quick passes as well as an emphasis on all those crossing routes. Those crossing routes and an effective running game pulls the coverage in and opens up the back end for explosive receptions ..... which in turn opens up explosive runs thru the interior and outside via jet sweeps. Chargers fans should really be happy now that they have a more balanced offense and a supportive defense. Although, they do need to fix special teams prior to the playoffs.

    P.S. Although all quarterbacks have particularly poor games from time to time. The silver lining is those bad outings provide plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Russell Wilson isn't going to grow another five or six inches in height. But his game is going to evolve around his unique assets and become more formidable as he matures.


    We would have 4 Lombardi's if Rivers was leading this team from 2012-15. No doubt about it
    .


    Oh ya...Rivers would have at least 4, likely more! We could dominate the entire galaxy with Philip throwing picks at the same rate as TD's. :177692: :pukeface:

    #4 in All Time WORST playoff QB's LMAO!!!

    https://www.sportsbreak.com/nfl/the-10-worst-playoff-quarterbacks-in-nfl-history/
    Rivers was in his second season in 2007, when the Chargers went 11-5 and then beat Tennessee in the wild card, followed by a victory over Peyton Manning and the Colts in the AFC divisional game. But, in the AFC conference final against Tom Brady and the Patriots, Rivers didn’t click at all. He completed 19-of-37 for just 211 yards and threw two interceptions for a terrible rating of 46.1.


    You missed the entire point as usual. Here I'll draw it out for you. Give Rivers that Defense and Lynch with his abilities I 100% think we would have a few more SB'S. There's a reason a lot of ex players say the downfall of this team started when they catered to and paid Wilson. He's simply not that good.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:06 am
  • If Rivers was the QB of the Seahawks, they would have had to tear down that same running game and defense just to pay him.

    He was making 20 plus in those years the team was giving its cap to the defense. You can't have one without picking apart the other.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:13 am
  • chris98251 wrote:Belichek is known for his defenses, he had a hell of a defensive front for years with Wilfolk and great Linebackers in McGinest (OLB)Vrabel (OLB)Bruschi (ILB)Phifer (ILB) there for years as well. He had several RB's that he was able to use Dillon for a few years, Blount, Antowain Smith and then the WR's, he has always embraced the TE's and used them. with McDaniel's and Weiss.


    Bradys fame is more his demeanor and fighter mentality, when his line sucked he took beatings and his team respected it, they quickly made sure they shored it up and fired a Oline coach or two also.


    But go ahead and say he has not had a good team around him when he has been able to get to the dance.


    Yeah Belichick is a defensive guru, and they won one superbowl when they had those guys you mentioned; they also appeared in 6 others with scubs that he coached up to be respectable defenses...They've never been considered a top defense in the last 10 years...

    If you feel Russ is better than Brady, I can't continue this conversation as it's going to be useless.

    My point of the entire conversation was that I feel Russ is excellent..not as good as Rodgers and Brady who can overcome average D and average running games, but in that next tier.. Almost no QB can overcome poor or average running game/defenses to be great every year.

    Right now the Seahawks have decent defense and average running game (which looked to be great for a time). They are very close to being a playoff team IMO.
    Last edited by lukerguy on Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:15 am
  • RCATES wrote:
    Seymour wrote:
    RCATES wrote:
    Jville wrote:Phillip Rivers is not elite ...... without a running game and credible defense.

    Most quarterbacks need a running game to get into a rhythm that keeps defenses off balance and unable to restrict it to a one dimensional effort. We see that in quarterbacks that experience high variance seasons. Our own PopeyeJones described Russell Wilson as one of the most high variance quarterbacks in the league. I think that is a useful description. In prior years, I thought of Phillip Rivers play as highly variable. In the past, the Chargers relied far to much on Rivers and his preferred shot gun preference to carry the day. The Chargers proved that doesn't work. As emotional as Rivers is, he sure looked solid and confident on Sunday.

    Phillip Rivers clearly thrives with a complementary running game and the support of a credible defense to get him back on the field. The height of Rivers plane of vision opens up opportunities for quick passes as well as an emphasis on all those crossing routes. Those crossing routes and an effective running game pulls the coverage in and opens up the back end for explosive receptions ..... which in turn opens up explosive runs thru the interior and outside via jet sweeps. Chargers fans should really be happy now that they have a more balanced offense and a supportive defense. Although, they do need to fix special teams prior to the playoffs.

    P.S. Although all quarterbacks have particularly poor games from time to time. The silver lining is those bad outings provide plenty of opportunity to learn and grow. Russell Wilson isn't going to grow another five or six inches in height. But his game is going to evolve around his unique assets and become more formidable as he matures.


    We would have 4 Lombardi's if Rivers was leading this team from 2012-15. No doubt about it
    .


    Oh ya...Rivers would have at least 4, likely more! We could dominate the entire galaxy with Philip throwing picks at the same rate as TD's. :177692: :pukeface:

    #4 in All Time WORST playoff QB's LMAO!!!

    https://www.sportsbreak.com/nfl/the-10-worst-playoff-quarterbacks-in-nfl-history/
    Rivers was in his second season in 2007, when the Chargers went 11-5 and then beat Tennessee in the wild card, followed by a victory over Peyton Manning and the Colts in the AFC divisional game. But, in the AFC conference final against Tom Brady and the Patriots, Rivers didn’t click at all. He completed 19-of-37 for just 211 yards and threw two interceptions for a terrible rating of 46.1.


    You missed the entire point as usual. Here I'll draw it out for you. Give Rivers that Defense and Lynch with his abilities I 100% think we would have a few more SB'S. There's a reason a lot of ex players say the downfall of this team started when they catered to and paid Wilson. He's simply not that good.


    I missed nothing. You are clueless about how well Rivers plays in the playoffs...PERIOD.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:17 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:If Rivers was the QB of the Seahawks, they would have had to tear down that same running game and defense just to pay him.

    He was making 20 plus in those years the team was giving its cap to the defense. You can't have one without picking apart the other.


    I wasn't going to get technical with the OP because of his confusion....but ya...small detail of who you take from that team to pay Rivers comes up like Si pointed out here. :roll:
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:21 am
  • lukerguy wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Belichek is known for his defenses, he had a hell of a defensive front for years with Wilfolk and great Linebackers in McGinest (OLB)Vrabel (OLB)Bruschi (ILB)Phifer (ILB) there for years as well. He had several RB's that he was able to use Dillon for a few years, Blount, Antowain Smith and then the WR's, he has always embraced the TE's and used them. with McDaniel's and Weiss.


    Bradys fame is more his demeanor and fighter mentality, when his line sucked he took beatings and his team respected it, they quickly made sure they shored it up and fired a Oline coach or two also.


    But go ahead and say he has not had a good team around him when he has been able to get to the dance.


    Yeah Belichick is a defensive guru, and they won one superbowl when they had those guys you mentioned; they also appeared in 6 others with scubs that he coached up to be respectable defenses...They've never been considered a top defense in the last 10 years...

    If you feel Russ is better than Brady, I can't continue this conversation as it's going to be useless.



    It's probably not about who is better, Russ or Brady, but more about the idea that Brady has been willing his team to win through his sheer ability while Russ was gifted success by those around him.

    Brady is the GOAT. That's not debatable in my mind. Rodgers is the best ball thrower in the league. But their successes in the position are based on those around them as much as their ability.

    Russ deserves the same credit, or atleast to be afforded the same logic applied when assessing his value. Rodgers and Russ are very similar, stat wise, for example.

    The biggest debate, for me, is whether to pay Wilson his next contract (maybe 30 mill/year) or try and go back to the formula that got the team this era of success. Both are risky
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:57 am
  • RCATES wrote: He peaked in 2013.



    Now you are just throwing random things out there. Peaked in 2013? Seriously?? He's had at least 3 better years statistically than he did in 2013. Last year he led the league in TDs and was only 17 yards short of a third straight 4000 yards passing.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:01 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    lukerguy wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Belichek is known for his defenses, he had a hell of a defensive front for years with Wilfolk and great Linebackers in McGinest (OLB)Vrabel (OLB)Bruschi (ILB)Phifer (ILB) there for years as well. He had several RB's that he was able to use Dillon for a few years, Blount, Antowain Smith and then the WR's, he has always embraced the TE's and used them. with McDaniel's and Weiss.


    Bradys fame is more his demeanor and fighter mentality, when his line sucked he took beatings and his team respected it, they quickly made sure they shored it up and fired a Oline coach or two also.


    But go ahead and say he has not had a good team around him when he has been able to get to the dance.


    Yeah Belichick is a defensive guru, and they won one superbowl when they had those guys you mentioned; they also appeared in 6 others with scubs that he coached up to be respectable defenses...They've never been considered a top defense in the last 10 years...

    If you feel Russ is better than Brady, I can't continue this conversation as it's going to be useless.



    It's probably not about who is better, Russ or Brady, but more about the idea that Brady has been willing his team to win through his sheer ability while Russ was gifted success by those around him.

    Brady is the GOAT. That's not debatable in my mind. Rodgers is the best ball thrower in the league. But their successes in the position are based on those around them as much as their ability.

    Russ deserves the same credit, or atleast to be afforded the same logic applied when assessing his value. Rodgers and Russ are very similar, stat wise, for example.

    The biggest debate, for me, is whether to pay Wilson his next contract (maybe 30 mill/year) or try and go back to the formula that got the team this era of success. Both are risky


    I agree with this mostly. I think Rodgers is a small step ahead of Wilson because he has better pocket mechanics and doesn't take so many drive killing sacks that Russ takes. You never see him retreat backwards, and for that reason, I think he can get away with a team with less running and defense and still be a perennial playoff team. I don't think the hawks are a perennial playoff team with the defense and running game GB has had over the years.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:36 am
  • lukerguy wrote:
    chris98251 wrote:Belichek is known for his defenses, he had a hell of a defensive front for years with Wilfolk and great Linebackers in McGinest (OLB)Vrabel (OLB)Bruschi (ILB)Phifer (ILB) there for years as well. He had several RB's that he was able to use Dillon for a few years, Blount, Antowain Smith and then the WR's, he has always embraced the TE's and used them. with McDaniel's and Weiss.


    Bradys fame is more his demeanor and fighter mentality, when his line sucked he took beatings and his team respected it, they quickly made sure they shored it up and fired a Oline coach or two also.


    But go ahead and say he has not had a good team around him when he has been able to get to the dance.


    Yeah Belichick is a defensive guru, and they won one superbowl when they had those guys you mentioned; they also appeared in 6 others with scubs that he coached up to be respectable defenses...They've never been considered a top defense in the last 10 years...

    If you feel Russ is better than Brady, I can't continue this conversation as it's going to be useless.

    My point of the entire conversation was that I feel Russ is excellent..not as good as Rodgers and Brady who can overcome average D and average running games, but in that next tier.. Almost no QB can overcome poor or average running game/defenses to be great every year.

    Right now the Seahawks have decent defense and average running game (which looked to be great for a time). They are very close to being a playoff team IMO.


    What I am saying is that no QB can do it on his own, you need a run threat and a defense that is top ten or close or a offense that can explode. The thing about the Patriots is that for over a decade they have had no real challenge in their own division to get in their way as well. That's a big help in making your team play off eligible.


    Lets take a look at Trent Dilfer, had a elite running game and defense when he won, all he had to do was make enough throws and not turn the ball over to keep a defense honest. That's the extreme opposite and it worked that year.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:46 am
  • oldhawkfan wrote:
    RCATES wrote: He peaked in 2013.



    Now you are just throwing random things out there. Peaked in 2013? Seriously?? He's had at least 3 better years statistically than he did in 2013. Last year he led the league in TDs and was only 17 yards short of a third straight 4000 yards passing.


    Again these stats are misleading because Seattle has been playing behind in most of these games. Russ stat padding in garbage time when the other team went Prevent. Have you already forgot about our biggest complaint of Russ the last two years? That he didn't get it going until the 4th quarter in most cases. That's because the other team had a lead and went Prevent. Its not rocket science people. Wilson was garbage for the other 3 quarters. Anyways like I said lets revisit this after a few more games. I think Wilson's struggles are going to be super obvious in the coming weeks as we continue to play good teams.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:56 am
  • Reality is Wilson is putting up elite numbers, and has done so since arriving in the NFL. Has he got some issues that he could improve? Absolutely!

    Wilson has a will to win and an almost bulletproof sense of his ability to make something out of nothing which he has done successfully for years. The consequence of this attitude is that he can't or doesn't throw the ball away soon enough when the world is collapsing around him. This limitation separates him from being considered special by all as he takes play killing sacks which hurt or end drives. if he could improve this single aspect of his game while keeping his gunslinger mentality he would be universally considered exceptional.

    If i had one wish it would be that he accepts reality better at times.
    Until we develop a pass rush that will cause opposing teams to be forced to scheme to defend it we will never be able to consistently take the final step. The interior rush needs improvement. The OLine clearly still needs work.

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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:09 pm
  • What's the point of throwing the ball away when you can make things happen. Until the days he can no longer evade defenders is the day he needs to change his game. Right now he still able too, maybe not like he was a few years ago but probably still the best in the NFL in improvising and making plays.

    My beef is that he doesn't hold the ball w/ read option. It seems like so many times he has it but elects to just give it to the RB. He needs to do this more just to keep the defense in check. We thrive so much when Wilson did this w/ Lynch.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:27 pm
  • rcaido wrote:What's the point of throwing the ball away when you can make things happen. Until the days he can no longer evade defenders is the day he needs to change his game. Right now he still able too, maybe not like he was a few years ago but probably still the best in the NFL in improvising and making plays.

    My beef is that he doesn't hold the ball w/ read option. It seems like so many times he has it but elects to just give it to the RB. He needs to do this more just to keep the defense in check. We thrive so much when Wilson did this w/ Lynch.


    I'd much rather him throw it away then take a 15 yard loss on a Sack. 3 and 8 is much better then 3rd and 23. In other words a drive killing sack. Wilson is the king of these. Its something you rarely see from Elite Qb's. He's regressed as a player. Blame it on loss of speed, lack of vision (being short) or just simply trying to do too much. Fact is he is going the wrong direction on player development. Its worrisome going forward to say the least. This is why I standby that he peaked in 2013.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:41 pm
  • RCATES wrote:
    rcaido wrote:What's the point of throwing the ball away when you can make things happen. Until the days he can no longer evade defenders is the day he needs to change his game. Right now he still able too, maybe not like he was a few years ago but probably still the best in the NFL in improvising and making plays.

    My beef is that he doesn't hold the ball w/ read option. It seems like so many times he has it but elects to just give it to the RB. He needs to do this more just to keep the defense in check. We thrive so much when Wilson did this w/ Lynch.


    I'd much rather him throw it away then take a 15 yard loss on a Sack. 3 and 8 is much better then 3rd and 23. In other words a drive killing sack. Wilson is the king of these. Its something you rarely see from Elite Qb's. He's regressed as a player. Blame it on loss of speed, lack of vision (being short) or just simply trying to do too much. Fact is he is going the wrong direction on player development. Its worrisome going forward to say the least. This is why I standby that he peaked in 2013.


    You got to take the bad with the good. There is way more good then bad...

    You wouldn't have gottent his play if he just lay on it or throw the ball away.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:55 pm
  • I didn't read this thread because I know whats going to be said but its hilarious how badly a fan base views their QB. Wilson is off to a historical pace in an offense that isn't conducive to QB's. 2nd all time passer rating, over a 100 this year, an elite TD/INT ratio, a passing attack that doesn't scheme guys open but relies on execution only and with a very conservative coach and its almost unbelievable he's been as good as he has. In any other system he would be a stat monster.

    He's not perfect, no one is but he's every bit elite and no one in the league doubts that anymore. Brady rattled off the 4 best and listed Russell, I'll agree with that.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:58 pm
  • I would be curious to see how well Brady would have done here with our line and Bevell calling plays and not having a TE to bail him out since he would be required to block , or not use the middle of the field for fear of a turn over.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:04 pm
  • Tom Brady: 1-st year in NFL - 2000, -------19 seasons played, so far.
    Aaron Rodgers: 1-st year in NFL - 2005, -------14 seasons played, so far.
    Drew Brees: 1-st year in NFL - 2001, -------18 seasons played, so far.
    Phillip Rivers: 1-st year in BFL - 2004, -------15 seasons played, so far.
    Ben Roethisberger: 1-st year in NFL - 2004, -------15 seasons played, so far.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    --Russell Wilson, 1-st year in NFL - 2012, -------7 seasons played, so far.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    My conclusions:
    --Wilson has 36% to 50% of the seasons played by the supposed "elite" QB's. So then, how valid a comparison?

    --All of the listed QB's have had piss poor games now and then & some were really, really bad.

    --Perhaps when Wilson has the same number of years of playing QB, he'll be considered "elite" too?

    --Maybe a much better comparison would be to look at them at the same point of their careers? How many of the listed QB's were considered "elite" in their 1-st 7 seasons? Do Super bowl appearances/wins count as bonuses to elite status?

    -- Why is "elite" such a difficult description & what's wrong with just being very good at your job? There are exactly zero perfect QB's (or any other position) in the NFL, beyond that it's just hyperbole and blind faith in any QB that is both a fan favorite and a team that wins most of their games. If Wilson isn't considered elite now, wait until he has 15-19 years behind him. maybe then he'll get recognized as "elite" but until then, I'll be fine with the designation of "a very good QB". On top of that, if RW wasn't a Seahawk, where would the team be? What QB (that would have been available to the Seahawks) would have replaced him and have done anywhere near as well?

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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:11 pm
  • This is a week-to-week thing. RW can only be judged on the body of his work, not an emotional response to one win or loss.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:51 pm
  • Wilson is too inconsistent to be thought of as an "elite" QB.

    He's good.

    But he is not better than the following QBs:

    Brady
    Rodgers
    Brees
    Rivers
    Roethlisberger
    Mahomes (Yes, I said it)
    To an extent, I would even argue Newton and Ryan is better than Wilson.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:55 pm
  • chris98251 wrote:I would be curious to see how well Brady would have done here with our line and Bevell calling plays and not having a TE to bail him out since he would be required to block , or not use the middle of the field for fear of a turn over.

    I think Brady would find more success.

    I still think Wilson's height minimizes the available play calls the OC can make.

    Wilson cannot throw short passes and needs to drop back with 5 and 7 step drops in order to see passing lanes.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:06 pm
  • TheLegendOfBoom wrote:Wilson is too inconsistent to be thought of as an "elite" QB.

    He's good.

    But he is not better than the following QBs:

    Brady
    Rodgers
    Brees
    Rivers
    Roethlisberger
    Mahomes (Yes, I said it)
    To an extent, I would even argue Newton and Ryan is better than Wilson.


    Do stats matter?
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:10 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    TheLegendOfBoom wrote:Wilson is too inconsistent to be thought of as an "elite" QB.

    He's good.

    But he is not better than the following QBs:

    Brady
    Rodgers
    Brees
    Rivers
    Roethlisberger
    Mahomes (Yes, I said it)
    To an extent, I would even argue Newton and Ryan is better than Wilson.


    Do stats matter?


    Nope. Just personal favoritism is all that counts.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:18 pm
  • He just needs to sleep more...I think B Marsh made a joke about it earlier this season. Two hours a night will not allow your body to perform at an elite level on a consistent basis.
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Re: Wilson is not Elite
Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:21 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    TheLegendOfBoom wrote:Wilson is too inconsistent to be thought of as an "elite" QB.

    He's good.

    But he is not better than the following QBs:

    Brady
    Rodgers
    Brees
    Rivers
    Roethlisberger
    Mahomes (Yes, I said it)
    To an extent, I would even argue Newton and Ryan is better than Wilson.


    Do stats matter?


    Apparently not.
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