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Playcalling - Get it straight

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Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:27 pm
  • It is now well known ( both from Schotty and Pete themselves)that Russ generally has 3 audibles to any given play. He can make a choice between 2 run reads and one pass read. This is now a known.

    So when you go with the Bevell-esque copout that playcalling is THE issue, you should know that you're only implicating Schotenheimer to an extent. Russ has been using audibles on a regular basis. More so with the running game, which can be a bit easier in terms of overload where as pass audibles require more thought, but none the less, you no longer can just point at the OC as your scapegoat. Not with any real valitity anyway.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:42 pm
  • Now before you get all crazy, I'm sure Russ is still catching up to the new responsibilities on top of it being a new offense. This is a process, but it's also something that a 30 year old experienced QB should be doing.

    On many of the sacks the past two games Pete himself said that he needs to step up in the pocket. Our WRs, TEs, and especially our RBs are more than adequate.

    This IS a process, but you no longer have easy copouts and the guy isn't your baby or even some greenhorn. It'll likely get better, being the process that it is.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:44 pm
  • So....the point of this thread is to train us? Or, just to state Russell sucks?
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:47 pm
  • Seymour wrote:So....the point of this thread is to train us? Or, just to state Russell sucks?


    The point of the two first posts is to state the truth.

    Bipolars and extremists will always make of things what they will.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:48 pm
  • Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

    Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:51 pm
  • vin.couve12 wrote:
    Seymour wrote:So....the point of this thread is to train us? Or, just to state Russell sucks?


    The point of the two first posts is to state the truth.

    Bipolars and extremists will always make of things what they will.


    This Polar is hetro.

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    Last edited by Seymour on Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:52 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

    Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect


    The OP brought a good deal more information to his post than you did.

    I also think you're putting words in his mouth...he never said that Wilson is ALWAYS having to change the play. But audibles DO have to be called at times. That's just football.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:58 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

    Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect


    The OP brought a good deal more information to his post than you did.

    I also think you're putting words in his mouth...he never said that Wilson is ALWAYS having to change the play. But audibles DO have to be called at times. That's just football.



    Can you point out specifically what he brought that was more than I did?

    OP: Russ has no excuses (an absolute opinion, already a weak debating point) because he can change plays at the line

    Me: That’s a silly point to make, because Aaron Rodgers changes plays all the time and STILL gets frustrated with McCarthy

    Oh and as for silly sacks, watch the Packers-Dolphins game. Rodgers took some sacks that may remind you of someone.

    Explain to me how OP’s point is reasonable in any way, shape or form. Russ changes plays all the time especially this year, and has a good batting average doing so overall. So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable? When literally no other QB is held to that extreme standard unless they’re Bortles, Carr, etc.?
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:04 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable?


    That's not what he said.

    just


    Go find that word in the OP, take a chill pill, and come back.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:09 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

    Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect


    The OP brought a good deal more information to his post than you did.

    I also think you're putting words in his mouth...he never said that Wilson is ALWAYS having to change the play. But audibles DO have to be called at times. That's just football.



    Can you point out specifically what he brought that was more than I did?

    OP: Russ has no excuses (an absolute opinion, already a weak debating point) because he can change plays at the line

    Me: That’s a silly point to make, because Aaron Rodgers changes plays all the time and STILL gets frustrated with McCarthy

    Oh and as for silly sacks, watch the Packers-Dolphins game. Rodgers took some sacks that may remind you of someone.

    Explain to me how OP’s point is reasonable in any way, shape or form. Russ changes plays all the time especially this year, and has a good batting average doing so overall. So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable? When literally no other QB is held to that extreme standard unless they’re Bortles, Carr, etc.?


    You seem to take this personally. Why is that?

    Also, Rodgers is irrelevant to what I stated, which is perfectly, holistically reasonable.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:09 pm
  • Devils advocate here
    1) I didn't know russ had 2 audible run options and 1 pass... Tough to blame Shotty here when the run game is so strong and the Hawks are putting up strong points mostly every game.
    2) My only complaint is the play design.... it's great that he has options, but I'd like to see more pre-snap movement like the Eagles, KC, and LA.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:21 pm
  • A few things are really interesting.

    1 - Why are we not audibling into pass plays when the RB is running into stacked fronts?

    I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

    Why does he have so many problems shaking off his play caller and calling his own number? Was this drilled out of him? Is that good?

    How was he OK with this? It stuck him with a number of 3rd and longs, and our 3rd down conversion % was garbage.

    2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a new contract at some point even be OK with these #s?

    It really is weird that a QB as confident as Wilson, given the opportunity to make audibles, seems like he isn't doing it into the pass very often in that last game. Just because we knew the pass rush was so nightmarish that we could only slow them with the run game? Sure, but with that little balance?

    (For those of you that want to put out how amazingly balanced 'actually were' remember that we were stuck throwing the ball repeatedly in the 4th quarter just to try to catch up. That skewed the #s. We were not balanced at all before those last 2 drives)
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:28 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:A few things are really interesting.

    1 - Why are we not audibling into pass plays when the RB is running into stacked fronts?

    I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

    Why does he have so many problems shaking off his play caller and calling his own number? Was this drilled out of him? Is that good?

    How was he OK with this? It stuck him with a number of 3rd and longs, and our 3rd down conversion % was garbage.

    2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a new contract at some point even be OK with these #s?

    It really is weird that a QB as confident as Wilson, given the opportunity to make audibles, seems like he isn't doing it into the pass very often in that last game. Just because we knew the pass rush was so nightmarish that we could only slow them with the run game? Sure, but with that little balance?

    (For those of you that want to put out how amazingly balanced 'actually were' remember that we were stuck throwing the ball repeatedly in the 4th quarter just to try to catch up. That skewed the #s. We were not balanced at all before those last 2 drives)


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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:39 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable?


    That's not what he said.

    just


    Go find that word in the OP, take a chill pill, and come back.



    Take a chill pill. Adorable way to basically dismiss an argument that wasn't strong to begin with. So let's review together:

    So when you go with the Bevell-esque copout that playcalling is THE issue, you should know that you're only implicating Schotenheimer to an extent.


    Me:
    Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy.


    Directly addressing the OP's implication that the initial play call is irrelevant. And that it's on Russ. Not Schotty, who has a questionable history as a playcaller

    Me again:

    Russ changes plays all the time especially this year, and has a good batting average doing so overall. So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable?


    Another OP quote:

    On many of the sacks the past two games Pete himself said that he needs to step up in the pocket. Our WRs, TEs, and especially our RBs are more than adequate.


    So, I respond by highlighting that the QB many considers to be the best in the league, also holds onto the ball long. Because they have similar playing styles. And they sometimes tend to take bad sacks although Rodgers typically has a better pass protecting O-line.

    Oh, and here's another OP quote:

    This IS a process, but you no longer have easy copouts and the guy isn't your baby or even some greenhorn. It'll likely get better, being the process that it is.


    Your response to this MontanaHawk should have been "take a chill pill," because the OP is immediately setting the precedent that a counter argument to this is "babying Wilson" and being an extremist.

    My reaction was actually quite appropriate given OP's post, which is negative, not constructive. Do you have something better now than just "take a chill pill?"
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:52 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:A few things are really interesting.

    1 - Why are we not audibling into pass plays when the RB is running into stacked fronts?

    I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

    Why does he have so many problems shaking off his play caller and calling his own number? Was this drilled out of him? Is that good?

    How was he OK with this? It stuck him with a number of 3rd and longs, and our 3rd down conversion % was garbage.

    2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a new contract at some point even be OK with these #s?

    It really is weird that a QB as confident as Wilson, given the opportunity to make audibles, seems like he isn't doing it into the pass very often in that last game. Just because we knew the pass rush was so nightmarish that we could only slow them with the run game? Sure, but with that little balance?

    (For those of you that want to put out how amazingly balanced 'actually were' remember that we were stuck throwing the ball repeatedly in the 4th quarter just to try to catch up. That skewed the #s. We were not balanced at all before those last 2 drives)

    I have been asking a lot of the same questions over the last year..I didn't know he had a pass audible either,
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:06 pm
  • Also, let's get some other things straight:


    Wilson is currently tied for 4th in passing touchdowns. and is currently 6th in passer rating. And yet, look at all the anti-Wilson stuff on this board in the past month or so. Criticism is fine, but it's getting over the top and it nowhere matches his ACTUAL production.


    Yes, there's a lot of room for improvement, but it's getting a bit toxic, and way over what occasional constructive criticism looks like. It's also worth noting that the Air Coryell offense has its pros and cons. Field Gulls wrote some great stuff on this already:

    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/11/2/18 ... win-carson

    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/7/18/59 ... -behind-it

    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/11/7/18 ... ny-running

    https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/11/5/18 ... ttenheimer


    There are others, but the general point is that this offense doesn't leave a lot of flexibility from a play calling standpoint, as compared to say a West Coast offense. In some ways it's a bit outdated, but given our rushing success I'm not complaining. But the Air Coryell offense doesn't use the run and the pass to compliment and feed off each other as compared to more modern offenses
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:11 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:My reaction was actually quite appropriate given OP's post, which is negative, not constructive.


    Criticism is not always negativity. If we can't criticize players...

    You also didn't address what I said - the implications of the word "just" in the OP.

    So now I'm going to add reading glasses to the prescription of what is now three chill pills, because you're giving the distinct impression of some guy sitting at his desk grinding his teeth with a massive vein throbbing just above his temple. Over a post on the internet.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:41 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:A few things are really interesting.

    1 - Why are we not ....... ?

    I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

    Why does he have so many problems ......... ? Is that good?

    How was he OK with this?

    2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a ....... ?

    It really is weird that ................... ?



    I don't know how to help you. We all have access to the game and game recordings. They hold press conferences, provide interviews, chalk talks, write books and more to answer questions. I never imagined anyone would have such a persistent difficulty with the process of following an unfolding story ....... amazing.

    Maybe, for some, it just wasn't meant to be :229031_shrug: Good luck finding some sliver of joy.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:55 pm
  • I didnt know how RWs options worked but I assumed he had the go ahead. As a seasoned vet and a top 10 QB he should be expected to share the responsibility and be held accountable for getting the team into the right play.

    I read the post as not a knock on RW but that blaming the OC is picking the low hanging fruit. We dont know everything that goes into a play or always know whos fault it is when a play doesnt work. The playcall and the OC get criticized more often than they should IMO.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:02 pm
  • Let's discuss the topic at hand and quit making the post about what someone might mean in their post, or proving and disproving who's right and who's wrong.

    The OP has a valid point, I might have worded it differently. But we're all adults here, and we shouldn't succumb to that visceral need to respond to a post that is perceived to be negative and condescending, with an equally negative and condescending post. Win the day, provide an argument against the OP's thesis. Not his perceived intentions.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:19 pm
  • There is a clear problem in the passing game.

    It is not necessarily Wilson's fault. But there is a problem when you pass at such an inconsistent or worse, consistently low rate. It seems interesting that some want to rush immediately to the aid of their QB instead of discuss the issue. Hopefully that ends.

    Not everything is an attack on Wilson. He is the QB, he has to produce, he isn't. Since there are a number of factors that affect his production - including the ability to audible. It makes sense to ask.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:47 pm
  • I don't see anything wrong with what the OP has stated. If you are going to evaluate the outcome of a play rationally then you need to look at all factors including QB play. You can't avoid it simply because an annoying group of posters twist all discourse into straw man "player is perfect/player sucks" debates.

    One major caution about putting too much emphasis on audibles is that it obviously doesn't change our personnel group. So if we ran out there in jumbo 12 personnel with Davis-Vannett-Fant-Lockett-Baldwin we are well equipped to run the ball even if the opposing defense has brought some beef in to match our own formation. Conversely if we are in an empty set and they subbed in a dime defense to compensate that doesn't automatically mean we should audible to a run. Changing from a running play to a passing play is typically less interesting than being able to slightly adjust a passing play after using motion to figure out whether the opposing defense is in zone or man coverage.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:03 pm
  • TwistedHusky wrote:There is a clear problem in the passing game.

    It is not necessarily Wilson's fault. But there is a problem when you pass at such an inconsistent or worse, consistently low rate. It seems interesting that some want to rush immediately to the aid of their QB instead of discuss the issue. Hopefully that ends.

    Not everything is an attack on Wilson. He is the QB, he has to produce, he isn't. Since there are a number of factors that affect his production - including the ability to audible. It makes sense to ask.


    You're right and I think there are two natural inclinations at work here:

    With so many variables in pay, select the variable with the most salary and touches per game as the most causal factor in outcomes because it's a fools errand to pick at the periphery.

    With so many variables in play, try to isolate as much around that same variable and question how the periphery can be improved because that central variable isn't likely to change much over time.

    Both make sense, both aren't inherently wrong and have their rationales.

    I gravitate towards the latter only because I see more actionable things that could be done and want to explore those.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:20 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable?


    That's not what he said.

    just


    Go find that word in the OP, take a chill pill, and come back.

    LOL, Okay now I'm a little confused here......So Russ has a Designed play called in and he's out there with an Empty Backset...He still can decide to opt for a Run, but only if he decides to run it himself?
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:24 pm
  • There are considerably more moving parts to a pass audible. A run audible has most of the team in the general vacinity and it's merely a matter of counting: We have 4 on 5 left of center and 4 on 4 right of center...run right.

    Passing audibles are quite a bit more difficult. You use that language out loud more than once or twice and defenders remember and can jump it, not to mention that noise can be an issue in away gamesand you still need to know some semblance of a coverage that you're looking at to know where to attack it.

    RW has never been given this much freedom or responsibility at any point in his career. Schotty was brought here specifically for RW's continued growth. RW is statistically doing well in terms of rating and TDs, no doubt. We could still use more consistency in getting the ball out on time, pocket presense, marking his own read progression based off what the defense shows, etc.

    I think this improves over time. Thinking too much often manifests itself in terms of habits and that's probably what we're looking at here.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:32 pm
  • No wierdos need to take that as a defense either. Would be nice to go 5-1 or 6-0 and be the team no one wants to play.

    An NO fan was telling me the other day that he doesn't want to see SEA make it.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:03 pm
  • Could it be that the point the OP was attempting to make is, Shotty sends out a certain player package. Then, the formation is established. Within that formation, with that certain player grouping, RW has 4 prime options on every play. It is up to RW to make the call as to which option he feels will work the best.

    For fans, it becomes a chicken/egg argument. Either RW sucks because he either did or did not audible, or Shotty sucks because RW picked the wrong option, or there should have been several more options. And, all these options need to be processed and activated in 30 seconds or less.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:13 pm
  • seedhawk wrote:Could it be that the point the OP was attempting to make is, Shotty sends out a certain player package. Then, the formation is established. Within that formation, with that certain player grouping, RW has 4 prime options on every play. It is up to RW to make the call as to which option he feels will work the best.

    For fans, it becomes a chicken/egg argument. Either RW sucks because he either did or did not audible, or Shotty sucks because RW picked the wrong option, or there should have been several more options. And, all these options need to be processed and activated in 30 seconds or less.


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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:41 pm
  • Passing play Audibles out of a Run call are harder because you have to also take in consideration personnel on the field also, when you have Fant and Dickson and 2 WR's and also about field position and down and distance.


    Going from a pass to a run is easier because you already have your line and just need to change blocking assignments and call the hole, unless your in a empty backfield on 3rd down and long :).
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:50 pm
  • You may have audibles but you’re still limited by formation and personnel. This isn’t madden where you can change everything and you’re limited to plays closely related to the original play. It’s probably too wordy for this space but just because Wilson has audibles he’s still very limited to what the OC called.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:03 pm
  • MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:My reaction was actually quite appropriate given OP's post, which is negative, not constructive.


    Criticism is not always negativity. If we can't criticize players...

    You also didn't address what I said - the implications of the word "just" in the OP.

    So now I'm going to add reading glasses to the prescription of what is now three chill pills, because you're giving the distinct impression of some guy sitting at his desk grinding his teeth with a massive vein throbbing just above his temple. Over a post on the internet.


    Maybe I should make a thread like the OP saying that Russ cannot be the scapegoat, and the focus should be on Schotty. I'd be called a Russ fanatic, so in using that same logic I'm calling out this thread for what it is. Let's now discuss criticism vs negativity.

    Criticism: "Russ missed that play. He missed that throw, should have read the defense differently there. Etc."

    Negativity: Posts that imply Russ struggles to "think" like a good QB is supposed to, basically suggesting he's not smart enough (that has been implied on here). Or...overly criticizing him for things that are pretty standard among other players at his position.

    Also "Negative" and not merely criticism:

    You no longer can just point at the OC as your scapegoat. Not with any real valitity anyway.


    Translation, blame Russ, not the OC when things go bad. Also:

    you no longer have easy copouts and the guy isn't your baby or even some greenhorn


    OP's subsequent posts have sounded more reasonable, but you can't set the tone like that for a thread and be surprised when someone reacts

    The problem on this board is, you've accepted over the top Russ bashing as the norm. And yes I said bashing, not just criticism. There's a difference. Criticism is an open conversation about the offense, the limitations of the offense, and Russ, Pete, AND Schotty's role in it. The entire premise of the thread, as OP stated, is to focus on Russ while SIMULTANEOUSLY saying the OC should have less culpability. It's not holistic. If we're going to debate the offense, a good place to start might be to not suggest the OC has nothing to do with our offense's flaws. Just the short QB that is a constant punching bag on this forum. If I sit at my computer with a massive vein throbbing, as you claim...it's because I want to see people criticized fairly. And Russ, as I will continue to maintain is one of the most critiqued, and inexplicably polarizing QBs in the league despite his success.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:38 pm
  • Scorpion05 wrote:
    MontanaHawk05 wrote:
    Scorpion05 wrote:My reaction was actually quite appropriate given OP's post, which is negative, not constructive.


    Criticism is not always negativity. If we can't criticize players...

    You also didn't address what I said - the implications of the word "just" in the OP.

    So now I'm going to add reading glasses to the prescription of what is now three chill pills, because you're giving the distinct impression of some guy sitting at his desk grinding his teeth with a massive vein throbbing just above his temple. Over a post on the internet.


    Maybe I should make a thread like the OP saying that Russ cannot be the scapegoat, and the focus should be on Schotty. I'd be called a Russ fanatic, so in using that same logic I'm calling out this thread for what it is. Let's now discuss criticism vs negativity.

    Criticism: "Russ missed that play. He missed that throw, should have read the defense differently there. Etc."

    Negativity: Posts that imply Russ struggles to "think" like a good QB is supposed to, basically suggesting he's not smart enough (that has been implied on here). Or...overly criticizing him for things that are pretty standard among other players at his position.

    Also "Negative" and not merely criticism:

    You no longer can just point at the OC as your scapegoat. Not with any real valitity anyway.


    Translation, blame Russ, not the OC when things go bad. Also:

    you no longer have easy copouts and the guy isn't your baby or even some greenhorn


    OP's subsequent posts have sounded more reasonable, but you can't set the tone like that for a thread and be surprised when someone reacts

    The problem on this board is, you've accepted over the top Russ bashing as the norm. And yes I said bashing, not just criticism. There's a difference. Criticism is an open conversation about the offense, the limitations of the offense, and Russ, Pete, AND Schotty's role in it. The entire premise of the thread, as OP stated, is to focus on Russ while SIMULTANEOUSLY saying the OC should have less culpability. It's not holistic. If we're going to debate the offense, a good place to start might be to not suggest the OC has nothing to do with our offense's flaws. Just the short QB that is a constant punching bag on this forum. If I sit at my computer with a massive vein throbbing, as you claim...it's because I want to see people criticized fairly. And Russ, as I will continue to maintain is one of the most critiqued, and inexplicably polarizing QBs in the league despite his success.

    Agreed ^, I also have to ask....If Schottenheimer doesn't share in the responsibility of plays that sometimes DON'T WORK as drawn up, is that on Wilson too?.....In fact, if it's ALL ON WILSON, why did the Seahawks even bother to go out & hire Schottenheimer as the OC in the first place.
    Even the best of execution by a Quarterback is no guarantee that some of the others involved will make their plays to perfection, & vice versa.
    Whose our #1 Receiver, and is he playing at 100%?, are the # 2s & 3's getting any kind of separation?-----Variables-----And then there is the O-Line, with even more Variables on any given play.
    Can't lay all the blame for miscues on ANY ONE PERSON.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:45 pm
  • I think the moral we can take away from this thread is that people don't like being fed definitives.

    There is nothing wrong with saying Wilson deserves some of the blame for the play being called given that he has the latitude to change plays at the line. There is also validity to the fact that Wilson is the one executing the plays on the field and if they fail it's largely his responsibility. The problem is when you state that as a definitive you are ignoring the fact that both the original play call and the audibles Russell is given are all part of the offensive system installed by the offensive coordinator and neither Russell or the play caller, has control over the other players on the field. The same logic applies to the definitive that Bevell or Schotty is to blame for the offense struggling. Because neither of those guys is on the field, it's impossible to say they are more at fault than Wilson or any other player on the offense when the offense struggles.

    In other words, no definitive in this case can adequately paint a clear picture unless you include all variables and treat them equally. If you simply focus in on Schotty or Wilson you will miss the big picture because you are no longer giving an answer to the problem "holistically" rather you are giving an opinion of what you think the problem is and giving a solution to a particular narrative you disagree with.

    And look there is nothing wrong with sharing your opinion on a given subject, as long as you're not taking a hardline stance on one side of an argument that doesn't have concrete variables while assuming your position is anything other than an opinion.

    That's not even a criticism of the OP, all of us are guilty of it from time to time.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:37 pm
  • Play calling get it straight: After reading your original post referring to a "Bevel cop out as the real issue". This sounds to me as a shot across Schotty's bow. On avg. a QB only calls a audible 3 or 4 times out of 10 plays called.

    Its just unclear who you are referring to that needs to get it straight?

    Now before the Pete and Schotty go over what they want to do, but once the game start Pete lets Schotty go with only suggestion on what changes mite work.

    I'm still puzzled about who you are referring to, i think they doing a wonderful job calling the plays, and other one or two mistake by the players there keep the sticks moving.

    It would really be interesting to have one of us call the plays, i bet we could even beat the Brown on there worst year.
    LOL
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:50 pm
  • Some of you guys need to up your football IQ. Audibles are available to a QB based entirely in the presnap read of the defense. Russ can only audible off specific reads, not just based on what he wants to do. Some plays will have no pass option. Some will have no run option. Some will have both.

    Schotty’s issue is that frequently his pass plays don’t have a bail out option. Most other spread offenses have a number of short routes available to the QB. They get fast players into space and go for YAC. That’s the modern game and we seem to ignore horizontality in our passing offense.

    But for the most part, execution and stupidity have derailed us more than play calling has.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:23 pm
  • That's a "hot read" and is the single most basic of all pass audibles.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:26 pm
  • knownone wrote:I think the moral we can take away from this thread is that people don't like being fed definitives.

    There is nothing wrong with saying Wilson deserves some of the blame for the play being called given that he has the latitude to change plays at the line. There is also validity to the fact that Wilson is the one executing the plays on the field and if they fail it's largely his responsibility. The problem is when you state that as a definitive you are ignoring the fact that both the original play call and the audibles Russell is given are all part of the offensive system installed by the offensive coordinator and neither Russell or the play caller, has control over the other players on the field. The same logic applies to the definitive that Bevell or Schotty is to blame for the offense struggling. Because neither of those guys is on the field, it's impossible to say they are more at fault than Wilson or any other player on the offense when the offense struggles.

    In other words, no definitive in this case can adequately paint a clear picture unless you include all variables and treat them equally. If you simply focus in on Schotty or Wilson you will miss the big picture because you are no longer giving an answer to the problem "holistically" rather you are giving an opinion of what you think the problem is and giving a solution to a particular narrative you disagree with.

    And look there is nothing wrong with sharing your opinion on a given subject, as long as you're not taking a hardline stance on one side of an argument that doesn't have concrete variables while assuming your position is anything other than an opinion.

    That's not even a criticism of the OP, all of us are guilty of it from time to time.


    If I could stand and applaud this in text, I would.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:41 am
  • austinslater25 wrote:You may have audibles but you’re still limited by formation and personnel. This isn’t madden where you can change everything and you’re limited to plays closely related to the original play. It’s probably too wordy for this space but just because Wilson has audibles he’s still very limited to what the OC called.


    :2thumbs:
    Bingo!
    You are also limited by any dominant player / mismatch that blows up the play. Miller, Mack, Donaldson, Suh, and Daniels tonight.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:50 am
  • We don't look like we even add hots to the options we give Wilson.

    It seems weird to just run into stacked boxes and not even give the QB a call for plays where the defense is clearly committed to stopping the run. It seems even weirder that Wilson himself is not pushing for them.

    At issue is not whether Wilson is good or not. Most of his 'detractors' consider him a top 10 QB.

    At issue is why our potentially 30M QB is being used like a 3M backup. That might be Wilson's fault, it might be the OC, it might be the coach - but someone is making decisions that don't seem to leverage what a 30M QB should be contributing in terms of production.

    And while you can say it is a complex system, there are lots of parts, etc - there are still the realities that there is responsibility and accountability for the key players (QB, OC, Coach). The objective of the game is to score more points than the other side. We are not doing that, and we are putting up near league low passing #s at the same time.

    Since teams scoring the most points are also putting up the higher passing #s (with the exception of Tampa Bay, who is leading everyone in passing but not points) - it certainly seems within the bounds to ask if we might score more if we had a better passing game or at least used our potentially 30M QB more effectively.

    For those that claim the problem is the defense, our defense is going to be average. And teams above .500 are scoring close to 27pts per game against us. In fact, if you look at how many scores our defense allowed in each game - then contrasted it with the avg score per game for that team - they are pretty close (Cowboys is an exception and I don't count the Raiders game at all). So defense might be the problem, but the solution, if you want to beat better than .500 teams, better be scoring enough to overcome that defense.

    Or we can just run the ball for lots of yards, lose games to teams better than .500, and just say we didn't have the horses this year. But we are keeping our best thoroughbred in the stable for some reason.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:27 am
  • Great Topic!!!

    This conversation is way overdue!

    More Xs and Os guys keep it coming. Less bickering and pissing contests, please.

    Props to Twisted--get out of my head! you're saying a lot of the things that I think many Seahawk fans are frustrated by every Sunday and the past few seasons. Our eyes are telling us one thing but what we're seeing on the field is leaving us with so many what the?????!!!!!! moments!

    It feels like they are more than content to just punt and put the defense back out on the field. It seems everyone but the staff knows we no longer have an elite defense. So why not up the offensive game? So frustrating to watch week in and week out.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:39 am
  • thegameq wrote:Great Topic!!!

    This conversation is way overdue!

    More Xs and Os guys keep it coming. Less bickering and pissing contests, please.

    Props to Twisted--get out of my head! you're saying a lot of the things that I think many Seahawk fans are frustrated by every Sunday and the past few seasons. Our eyes are telling us one thing but what we're seeing on the field is leaving us with so many what the?????!!!!!! moments!

    It feels like they are more than content to just punt and put the defense back out on the field. It seems everyone but the staff knows we no longer have an elite defense. So why not up the offensive game? So frustrating to watch week in and week out.


    There are several reasonable explanations of why, in the now, they aren't upping the offensive game.

    1. Talent ain't there across the board individually make the sum larger than the parts in many if not most positions
    2. Coaching less capable in upping the passing offense at least, either intrinsically due to their aptitude or overriding strategic imperatives they hold near and dear.
    3. Stress testing the defense more with less experience on the field. Iron sharpens Iron?
    4. By the same token, trying to instill comfort within the offense to execute the designs and plans better on offense.

    And there are probably a few more I'm not thinking of right now.

    Some of these make sense overall but doesn't excuse lack of execution or tactical design in the now. Some of these might lessen over time. Some seem intractable. Part of the fun of the season journey we sign on for is seeing improvements in places.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:28 am
  • I still struggle with the idea that the offense is struggling, that Wilsons top 8 passing stats (outside yards) indicate a weakness instead of balance and the assertion that the offense is whats holding this team back.

    Also... questioning whether the 30 million dollar qb will be used like one when hes not a 30 million dollar qb is projecting without consideration of a great deal of other factors that will play a significant role in the future of the team when Wilsons contract does come up.

    Its a single minded assault on one piece of a much bigger puzzle
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:33 am
  • Uncle Si wrote:I still struggle with the idea that the offense is struggling, that Wilsons top 8 passing stats (outside yards) indicate a weakness instead of balance and the assertion that the offense is whats holding this team back.

    Also... questioning whether the 30 million dollar qb will be used like one when hes not a 30 million dollar qb is projecting without consideration of a great deal of other factors that will play a significant role in the future of the team when Wilsons contract does come up.

    Its a single minded assault on one piece of a much bigger puzzle


    I wouldn't say they're struggling, other than these unsuccessful late drives.

    But as I said in other threads, I'd like to see a better balance. Rushing for 200 yards a game is awesome, but 39 yards of passing in the first half of games is not awesome.

    Would like to see a little better balance so we're not desperately depending on Russell and the offense to be perfect in the 4th quarter with no margin for error trying to all of a sudden flip the switch and throw it because we're behind.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:40 am
  • I question how any of you guys think you are qualified to second guess Wilson or Shotty? Ok I guess thats your job as fans but what ever! LOL

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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:44 am
  • Exactly.

    I am not saying: Who Is To Blame?

    That question comes after the obvious:

    What is wrong?

    Why is it happening?

    Can it be fixed? If so, how?

    Is this approach a choice for strategic reasons? tactical reasons? or out of necessity?

    Are there other choices that could be considered instead?


    Nothing about what we are seeing is normal. So either something is wrong or someone is making decisions that are not working.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:47 am
  • LTH wrote:I question how any of you guys think you are qualified to second guess Wilson or Shotty? Ok I guess thats your job as fans but what ever! LOL

    LTH


    Why do you think ESPN/Fox/NFL Network, sports radio, newspaper and website analysts and fan forums exist?

    This would be a pretty boring place if we didn't talk about how we think we can improve as a team, that includes second guessing every aspect of the team. Drafting, personnel moves, coaches, players, playcalling, schemes, philosophy. It's all up for debate.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:13 pm
  • Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:I still struggle with the idea that the offense is struggling, that Wilsons top 8 passing stats (outside yards) indicate a weakness instead of balance and the assertion that the offense is whats holding this team back.

    Also... questioning whether the 30 million dollar qb will be used like one when hes not a 30 million dollar qb is projecting without consideration of a great deal of other factors that will play a significant role in the future of the team when Wilsons contract does come up.

    Its a single minded assault on one piece of a much bigger puzzle


    I wouldn't say they're struggling, other than these unsuccessful late drives.

    But as I said in other threads, I'd like to see a better balance. Rushing for 200 yards a game is awesome, but 39 yards of passing in the first half of games is not awesome.

    Would like to see a little better balance so we're not desperately depending on Russell and the offense to be perfect in the 4th quarter with no margin for error trying to all of a sudden flip the switch and throw it because we're behind.


    Seattle has been trailing at halftime in 5 of the 9 games they played... all by single digits. They failed to score double digits in first half just 2 times.

    The balance exists. The issue is that the defense is not helping as much as the game plan requires.

    Im sure both will change by next season. But for this season, the defense has put the Seahawks in positions to chase points late far more than the offense, in my opinion.

    Tonight will be interesting
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:50 pm
  • LTH wrote:I question how any of you guys think you are qualified to second guess Wilson or Shotty? Ok I guess thats your job as fans but what ever! LOL

    LTH


    Ya....what he said! Be good little Stepford Fans and......

    Image

    :sarcasm_off:
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:08 pm
  • Uncle Si wrote:
    Sgt. Largent wrote:
    Uncle Si wrote:I still struggle with the idea that the offense is struggling, that Wilsons top 8 passing stats (outside yards) indicate a weakness instead of balance and the assertion that the offense is whats holding this team back.

    Also... questioning whether the 30 million dollar qb will be used like one when hes not a 30 million dollar qb is projecting without consideration of a great deal of other factors that will play a significant role in the future of the team when Wilsons contract does come up.

    Its a single minded assault on one piece of a much bigger puzzle


    I wouldn't say they're struggling, other than these unsuccessful late drives.

    But as I said in other threads, I'd like to see a better balance. Rushing for 200 yards a game is awesome, but 39 yards of passing in the first half of games is not awesome.

    Would like to see a little better balance so we're not desperately depending on Russell and the offense to be perfect in the 4th quarter with no margin for error trying to all of a sudden flip the switch and throw it because we're behind.


    Seattle has been trailing at halftime in 5 of the 9 games they played... all by single digits. They failed to score double digits in first half just 2 times.

    The balance exists. The issue is that the defense is not helping as much as the game plan requires.

    Im sure both will change by next season. But for this season, the defense has put the Seahawks in positions to chase points late far more than the offense, in my opinion.

    Tonight will be interesting


    The defense shouldn't be expected to hold up their end, it's not our strength right now........especially against these better QB's and offenses.

    That's my point, if Pete's mentality is as it's always been "play tough D, ground and pound and win games wearing out the other team holding a lead?" Then that's a failed scheme going into the games.

    I'm not asking for 40 passes a game, I'm asking for a little better run/pass balance so Russell and the offense aren't being asked to be perfect in the 2nd half of games because they've lost leads and need to do something they're not in rhythm and confident to do in the 4th.
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Re: Playcalling - Get it straight
Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:18 pm
  • Seymour wrote:
    LTH wrote:I question how any of you guys think you are qualified to second guess Wilson or Shotty? Ok I guess thats your job as fans but what ever! LOL

    LTH


    Ya....what he said! Be good little Stepford Fans and......

    Image

    :sarcasm_off:



    Its not that I think the Seahawks can do no wrong there are plenty of things they could do better... Its that I think most don't understand the progression during the season... Its irritating to read posts that are so far off base that it is ridiculous... Maybe they will be an 8-8 team I cant say for sure but its way more fun to ride the wave rather than doubt things that are not even really relevant...

    Just my take hammer me if you want :stirthepot:

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