Playcalling - Get it straight

vin.couve12 · Nov 14, 2018

It is now well known ( both from Schotty and Pete themselves)that Russ generally has 3 audibles to any given play. He can make a choice between 2 run reads and one pass read. This is now a known.

So when you go with the Bevell-esque copout that playcalling is THE issue, you should know that you're only implicating Schotenheimer to an extent. Russ has been using audibles on a regular basis. More so with the running game, which can be a bit easier in terms of overload where as pass audibles require more thought, but none the less, you no longer can just point at the OC as your scapegoat. Not with any real valitity anyway.

vin.couve12 · Nov 14, 2018

Now before you get all crazy, I'm sure Russ is still catching up to the new responsibilities on top of it being a new offense. This is a process, but it's also something that a 30 year old experienced QB should be doing.

On many of the sacks the past two games Pete himself said that he needs to step up in the pocket. Our WRs, TEs, and especially our RBs are more than adequate.

This IS a process, but you no longer have easy copouts and the guy isn't your baby or even some greenhorn. It'll likely get better, being the process that it is.

Seymour · Nov 14, 2018

So....the point of this thread is to train us? Or, just to state Russell sucks?

vin.couve12 · Nov 14, 2018

Seymour":wq1rrk29 said:
So....the point of this thread is to train us? Or, just to state Russell sucks?

The point of the two first posts is to state the truth.

Bipolars and extremists will always make of things what they will.

Scorpion05 · Nov 14, 2018

Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect

Seymour · Nov 14, 2018

vin.couve12":vy8m1inf said:
Seymour":vy8m1inf said:

So....the point of this thread is to train us? Or, just to state Russell sucks?

Click to expand...

The point of the two first posts is to state the truth.

Bipolars and extremists will always make of things what they will.

This Polar is hetro.

MontanaHawk05 · Nov 14, 2018

Scorpion05":okxyhvuh said:
Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect

The OP brought a good deal more information to his post than you did.

I also think you're putting words in his mouth...he never said that Wilson is ALWAYS having to change the play. But audibles DO have to be called at times. That's just football.

Scorpion05 · Nov 14, 2018

MontanaHawk05":2p2abgau said:
Scorpion05":2p2abgau said:

Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect

Click to expand...

The OP brought a good deal more information to his post than you did.

I also think you're putting words in his mouth...he never said that Wilson is ALWAYS having to change the play. But audibles DO have to be called at times. That's just football.

Can you point out specifically what he brought that was more than I did?

OP: Russ has no excuses (an absolute opinion, already a weak debating point) because he can change plays at the line

Me: That’s a silly point to make, because Aaron Rodgers changes plays all the time and STILL gets frustrated with McCarthy

Oh and as for silly sacks, watch the Packers-Dolphins game. Rodgers took some sacks that may remind you of someone.

Explain to me how OP’s point is reasonable in any way, shape or form. Russ changes plays all the time especially this year, and has a good batting average doing so overall. So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable? When literally no other QB is held to that extreme standard unless they’re Bortles, Carr, etc.?

MontanaHawk05 · Nov 14, 2018

Scorpion05":3oufnx5k said:
So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable?

That's not what he said.

just

Go find that word in the OP, take a chill pill, and come back.

vin.couve12 · Nov 14, 2018

Scorpion05":1tc339o6 said:
MontanaHawk05":1tc339o6 said:

Scorpion05":1tc339o6 said:

Oh look. Another unnecessary, divisive, negative Russ thread. With the purpose of making him one of the most diminished Quarterbacks in the league(Given his play over 7 years). Awesome

Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy. In fact, Packers fans are reasonable enough to criticize the coach AND the front office for not always getting Rodgers the necessary weapons. While you’re busy criticizing Russ for not being perfect

Click to expand...

The OP brought a good deal more information to his post than you did.

I also think you're putting words in his mouth...he never said that Wilson is ALWAYS having to change the play. But audibles DO have to be called at times. That's just football.

Click to expand...

Can you point out specifically what he brought that was more than I did?

OP: Russ has no excuses (an absolute opinion, already a weak debating point) because he can change plays at the line

Me: That’s a silly point to make, because Aaron Rodgers changes plays all the time and STILL gets frustrated with McCarthy

Oh and as for silly sacks, watch the Packers-Dolphins game. Rodgers took some sacks that may remind you of someone.

Explain to me how OP’s point is reasonable in any way, shape or form. Russ changes plays all the time especially this year, and has a good batting average doing so overall. So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable? When literally no other QB is held to that extreme standard unless they’re Bortles, Carr, etc.?

You seem to take this personally. Why is that?

Also, Rodgers is irrelevant to what I stated, which is perfectly, holistically reasonable.

lukerguy · Nov 14, 2018

Devils advocate here
1) I didn't know russ had 2 audible run options and 1 pass... Tough to blame Shotty here when the run game is so strong and the Hawks are putting up strong points mostly every game.
2) My only complaint is the play design.... it's great that he has options, but I'd like to see more pre-snap movement like the Eagles, KC, and LA.

TwistedHusky · Nov 14, 2018

A few things are really interesting.

1 - Why are we not audibling into pass plays when the RB is running into stacked fronts?

I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

Why does he have so many problems shaking off his play caller and calling his own number? Was this drilled out of him? Is that good?

How was he OK with this? It stuck him with a number of 3rd and longs, and our 3rd down conversion % was garbage.

2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a new contract at some point even be OK with these #s?

It really is weird that a QB as confident as Wilson, given the opportunity to make audibles, seems like he isn't doing it into the pass very often in that last game. Just because we knew the pass rush was so nightmarish that we could only slow them with the run game? Sure, but with that little balance?

(For those of you that want to put out how amazingly balanced 'actually were' remember that we were stuck throwing the ball repeatedly in the 4th quarter just to try to catch up. That skewed the #s. We were not balanced at all before those last 2 drives)

mrt144 · Nov 14, 2018

TwistedHusky":sd9jr4ig said:
A few things are really interesting.

1 - Why are we not audibling into pass plays when the RB is running into stacked fronts?

I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

Why does he have so many problems shaking off his play caller and calling his own number? Was this drilled out of him? Is that good?

How was he OK with this? It stuck him with a number of 3rd and longs, and our 3rd down conversion % was garbage.

2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a new contract at some point even be OK with these #s?

It really is weird that a QB as confident as Wilson, given the opportunity to make audibles, seems like he isn't doing it into the pass very often in that last game. Just because we knew the pass rush was so nightmarish that we could only slow them with the run game? Sure, but with that little balance?

(For those of you that want to put out how amazingly balanced 'actually were' remember that we were stuck throwing the ball repeatedly in the 4th quarter just to try to catch up. That skewed the #s. We were not balanced at all before those last 2 drives)

*Puts on Psychonanalyst Hat and Beard*

"Ze Russell Vilson You Schpeak Of, He is like a loyal Golden Retriever you raise from a pup. Not ze Rottweiler or ze German Shepard"

Scorpion05 · Nov 14, 2018

MontanaHawk05":tm1cp0xr said:
Scorpion05":tm1cp0xr said:

So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable?

Click to expand...

That's not what he said.

just

Click to expand...

Go find that word in the OP, take a chill pill, and come back.

Take a chill pill. Adorable way to basically dismiss an argument that wasn't strong to begin with. So let's review together:

So when you go with the Bevell-esque copout that playcalling is THE issue, you should know that you're only implicating Schotenheimer to an extent.

Me:

Btw, a good play caller doesn’t force his QB to always have to change the play. Even Aaron Rodgers get frustrated with McCarthy.

Directly addressing the OP's implication that the initial play call is irrelevant. And that it's on Russ. Not Schotty, who has a questionable history as a playcaller

Me again:

Russ changes plays all the time especially this year, and has a good batting average doing so overall. So again, how is OP’s point that Russ has little excuses and it’s not on the playcaller reasonable?

Another OP quote:

On many of the sacks the past two games Pete himself said that he needs to step up in the pocket. Our WRs, TEs, and especially our RBs are more than adequate.

So, I respond by highlighting that the QB many considers to be the best in the league, also holds onto the ball long. Because they have similar playing styles. And they sometimes tend to take bad sacks although Rodgers typically has a better pass protecting O-line.

Oh, and here's another OP quote:

This IS a process, but you no longer have easy copouts and the guy isn't your baby or even some greenhorn. It'll likely get better, being the process that it is.

Your response to this MontanaHawk should have been "take a chill pill," because the OP is immediately setting the precedent that a counter argument to this is "babying Wilson" and being an extremist.

My reaction was actually quite appropriate given OP's post, which is negative, not constructive. Do you have something better now than just "take a chill pill?"

IndyHawk · Nov 14, 2018

TwistedHusky":1plcy3zc said:
A few things are really interesting.

1 - Why are we not audibling into pass plays when the RB is running into stacked fronts?

I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

Why does he have so many problems shaking off his play caller and calling his own number? Was this drilled out of him? Is that good?

How was he OK with this? It stuck him with a number of 3rd and longs, and our 3rd down conversion % was garbage.

2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a new contract at some point even be OK with these #s?

It really is weird that a QB as confident as Wilson, given the opportunity to make audibles, seems like he isn't doing it into the pass very often in that last game. Just because we knew the pass rush was so nightmarish that we could only slow them with the run game? Sure, but with that little balance?

(For those of you that want to put out how amazingly balanced 'actually were' remember that we were stuck throwing the ball repeatedly in the 4th quarter just to try to catch up. That skewed the #s. We were not balanced at all before those last 2 drives)

I have been asking a lot of the same questions over the last year..I didn't know he had a pass audible either,
it must be new with the offense...Take the bull by the horns and use it!

Scorpion05 · Nov 14, 2018

Also, let's get some other things straight:

Wilson is currently tied for 4th in passing touchdowns. and is currently 6th in passer rating. And yet, look at all the anti-Wilson stuff on this board in the past month or so. Criticism is fine, but it's getting over the top and it nowhere matches his ACTUAL production.

Yes, there's a lot of room for improvement, but it's getting a bit toxic, and way over what occasional constructive criticism looks like. It's also worth noting that the Air Coryell offense has its pros and cons. Field Gulls wrote some great stuff on this already:

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/11/2/18 ... win-carson

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2014/7/18/59 ... -behind-it

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/11/7/18 ... ny-running

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2018/11/5/18 ... ttenheimer

There are others, but the general point is that this offense doesn't leave a lot of flexibility from a play calling standpoint, as compared to say a West Coast offense. In some ways it's a bit outdated, but given our rushing success I'm not complaining. But the Air Coryell offense doesn't use the run and the pass to compliment and feed off each other as compared to more modern offenses

MontanaHawk05 · Nov 14, 2018

Scorpion05":xy5wsrg4 said:
My reaction was actually quite appropriate given OP's post, which is negative, not constructive.

Criticism is not always negativity. If we can't criticize players...

You also didn't address what I said - the implications of the word "just" in the OP.

So now I'm going to add reading glasses to the prescription of what is now three chill pills, because you're giving the distinct impression of some guy sitting at his desk grinding his teeth with a massive vein throbbing just above his temple. Over a post on the internet.

Jville · Nov 14, 2018

TwistedHusky":8dkg71dm said:
A few things are really interesting.

1 - Why are we not ....... ?

I get that is the call but one would assume Wilson, as a professional QB, would at least want to pass for more than 40 yds in a half. Certainly, it feels like there have to be more than 6 pass opportunities in a half against a defense that showed some serious weaknesses in their secondary?

Why does he have so many problems ......... ? Is that good?

How was he OK with this?

2 - Why would a QB that wants to go into a ....... ?

It really is weird that ................... ?

I don't know how to help you. We all have access to the game and game recordings. They hold press conferences, provide interviews, chalk talks, write books and more to answer questions. I never imagined anyone would have such a persistent difficulty with the process of following an unfolding story ....... amazing.

Maybe, for some, it just wasn't meant to be :229031_shrug: Good luck finding some sliver of joy.

justafan · Nov 14, 2018

I didnt know how RWs options worked but I assumed he had the go ahead. As a seasoned vet and a top 10 QB he should be expected to share the responsibility and be held accountable for getting the team into the right play.

I read the post as not a knock on RW but that blaming the OC is picking the low hanging fruit. We dont know everything that goes into a play or always know whos fault it is when a play doesnt work. The playcall and the OC get criticized more often than they should IMO.

ivotuk · Nov 14, 2018

Let's discuss the topic at hand and quit making the post about what someone might mean in their post, or proving and disproving who's right and who's wrong.

The OP has a valid point, I might have worded it differently. But we're all adults here, and we shouldn't succumb to that visceral need to respond to a post that is perceived to be negative and condescending, with an equally negative and condescending post. Win the day, provide an argument against the OP's thesis. Not his perceived intentions.

Playcalling - Get it straight

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