Pete flipping the scales again

Ok we know Pete has always wanted the run game to be a focus and to balance things, Wilson was forced to put up the ball and his numbers reflect the difference in not having a run game the past years.


But take a step back, led the charge for bigger CB's and lighter D lineman with faster and lighter LB's, 7 years later the league has did what it does almost everywhere and adopted what we did.


Pete liked the ZBS from his days at USC, had Gibbs, lost Gibbs right away, had Solari and wanted him to be a TE's coach instead of the Line because of Gibbs, Solari went to New York and they had a decent Run game for a bit then things imploded there.

Cable was brought I since he was a disciple of Gibbs, The league changed the rules and Cable didn't adapt, Bevell also hamstrung the offense, lobbying for Harvin and then Graham.


The Rules changed but Cable didn't.

To think what we could have had with Zack Miller, and I still think we go get Lynch, if we had Kept Solari back then, and then the only missing piece would have been the OC, don't think Schotty was available then he was still a OC for the Jets, but a WCO guy that had actually did something could have I think worked out, if Schotty would have been hired having Miller here with the pieces we had and not wasting the draft picks to try and push Cables desire and Bevells missing piece we may have been unstoppable on offense and a wall on defense.


Got off track a bit sorry,

What we have now as I think about it is the 1972 Miami Dolphins.

Think about it.

Wilson very Griese like. Yes I know Morral played a lot that year because of a injury to Greise.

Carson runs much like Czonka

Davis much like Morris

Penny much better then Jim Kiick

Lockett Warfield like

Dickson, Vannett, Dissley all better then Fleming

Baldwin like Twilley

Where we don't match up yet is the defense, but I am focused on the offense, they brutalized opponents with the run and then Warfield and Twilley made them look silly.

Defenses now much lighter are susceptible to a punishing run game, we have road graders for O lineman now and don't try to get cute making them dive for peoples legs, we pull Guards and trap block. Run power sweeps. Throw in Fant and Dissley before he was hurt and you have three hundred of close to it lead blockers taking on 23 to 245 pound LB's many times. D lineman are now 260 TO 270 many times also Safeties and CB's that want no part of taking on the blocker to give their team mates a lane to tackle the ball carrier.


They have to stack the box to hope to stall the run and then Baldwin and Lockett and others can shine, Seam routes with TE's etc.


The offense is still a work in progress, those wanting more passes will get them this second half due to teams having to load up with the run focus, Baldwin healthy and Dickson showing he is healthy again should get more touches for Lockett and Moore as well.

We are going to be with Moore learning the game a pick your poison offense for teams to look at, we also have Brown who really has not broke thru here in the wings.

We may not make a lot of noise this year, but we are setting the table, teams won't look at us hard till we are a playoff team again, Pete is ahead of the curve again with the Running game, now that it is paying dividends we will ride it for a while, the defense will have to catch up to the offense this time around. When it does we will dominate for a while as the league once again plays catch up and copy Pete.

Good read thx

This man put in some work. Good read man.

The only discrepancy I could see in this concept is the fact the WCO is more a passing run and gun type of offense. I dont think that PC would have liked or let that happen. I believe that he would have demanded a running attack no matter what as it breeds total control of the ball. Time of Possession is controlled by keeping the clock running and running plays have a better chance of doing just that. Dink and dunk plays help in that regard but are risky I think he would say.

The rest of the post is great stuff...Kudos.

Seahawkfan80":3kd7wc3g said:

The only discrepancy I could see in this concept is the fact the WCO is more a passing run and gun type of offense. I dont think that PC would have liked or let that happen. I believe that he would have demanded a running attack no matter what as it breeds total control of the ball. Time of Possession is controlled by keeping the clock running and running plays have a better chance of doing just that. Dink and dunk plays help in that regard but are risky I think he would say.

The rest of the post is great stuff...Kudos.

Click to expand...

Pete always said he liked the ball control of the WCO, Walsh just had Taylor, Rice, Jones and a Game Manager named Montana, you can't forget they had Wendell Tyler and Watters as well, Hearst was there also and Roger Craig over the years. They had a running game, without those receivers they may have been a bit more balanced then the 65 percent they threw the ball.

I've been saying all season that there is value in being a power running team in the modern NFL where no one else is a power running team. I'm glad more people are seeing the light because you are 100% correct Chris, there isn't a defense in the league built to stop the power running game anymore, every team is built around stopping the spread.

If I was going to make a comparison I would lean toward the college ranks and look at Alabama. Massive offensive line, multiple running backs, limited pass game (most seasons), playmaking QB with good decision making, fast aggressive defense.

Obviously, Alabama has the ability to recruit better players but Nick Saban's philosophy is the main reason why I think that his teams have been so successful. Seriously, anyone who says a team built around the power running game can't work in the NFL because the league is becoming more like the spread offenses in college needs to realize what the best team in college has been doing for the last 10 years...

chris98251":1c893a37 said:

Seahawkfan80":1c893a37 said:

The only discrepancy I could see in this concept is the fact the WCO is more a passing run and gun type of offense. I dont think that PC would have liked or let that happen. I believe that he would have demanded a running attack no matter what as it breeds total control of the ball. Time of Possession is controlled by keeping the clock running and running plays have a better chance of doing just that. Dink and dunk plays help in that regard but are risky I think he would say.

The rest of the post is great stuff...Kudos.

Click to expand...

Pete always said he liked the ball control of the WCO, Walsh just had Taylor, Rice, Jones and a Game Manager named Montana, you can't forget they had Wendell Tyler and Watters as well, Hearst was there also and Roger Craig over the years. They had a running game, without those receivers they may have been a bit more balanced then the 65 percent they threw the ball.

Click to expand...

Very good points. I recall that Ninah team from back when. They were good setting up the run by the pass.

I have been on the same wave length, most teams' defense these days are designed to stop the passes. Few had the personnel to stop power runs, Pete has been trying the leverage that. OK, he failed in the past two years, but we are on track again.

Walsh's WCO came out in an era when most teams' defense were designed to stop the power runs, his short passes leveraged that. Bobb McKittrick's smart, quick, athletic and often undersized linemen were designed to work with Walsh's WCO.

Walsh was labelled as an offense genius, I would like to call Pete a defense genius or guru; they actually liked each other.

Seahawkfan80":1h1emteh said:

The only discrepancy I could see in this concept is the fact the WCO is more a passing run and gun type of offense. I dont think that PC would have liked or let that happen. I believe that he would have demanded a running attack no matter what as it breeds total control of the ball. Time of Possession is controlled by keeping the clock running and running plays have a better chance of doing just that. Dink and dunk plays help in that regard but are risky I think he would say.

The rest of the post is great stuff...Kudos.

Click to expand...

Some revisionist history here. First, the current Seahawks don't really run a true WCO. Second, Bill Walsh wasn't a passing run and gun at all. True, he was a genius at creating open receivers, but he relied on the run game, and his running backs as much as Pete.

For instance, in the 1984 SB winning season, the 49ers were 3rd in the league in rushing yards and 6th in attempts, and 4th in the league in passing yards, and 16th in attempts.

Their leading running back was Wendell Tyler, and their backup was a young Roger Craig. Tyler had 1,262 yards with a 5.1 ypa! Craig was, however, their leading receiver with 71 catches.

In 1988, another SB winning year under Walsh, they again were a top rushing team, at #2 in the league and 7th in the league in attempts, with the passing game coming in at #10 in total yards, and #15 in total attempts.

That year, Roger Craig was their leading RB with 1,502 yards and a 4.8 ypa. He was again the leading receiver (yes, over Jerry Rice) with 76 receptions. Of note, Roger Craig, while leading the team in total receptions only gained 7 ypr, while Jerry Rice (64 receptions) gained over 20 ypr, and John Taylor at over 23 ypr.

Seems to me, Pete and Shotty totally have the right WCO winning formula, with the exception of not utilizing the RB in the passing game enough. Maybe that's the next part of the formula to show itself.

*
*
As an aside, it's interesting to take a look at the following year, 1989, under first-year HC George Siefert and again a SB winning team. He flipped things a bit. The 49ers were #1 in total offense, and #2 in total passing yards, but only #20 in total passing attempts. They were also way down in total rushing yards at #10 in the league and #13 in rushing attempts.

The leading rusher that year was again, Roger Craig, but he dropped in carries and total yards. Jerry Rice became the leader in receptions (82) and total yards (1,483), with Roger Craig dropping all the way to 4th, with the FB, Tom Rathman overtaking Craig as the leading RB receiver.

Jazzhawk":3et3o94m said:

Seahawkfan80":3et3o94m said:

The only discrepancy I could see in this concept is the fact the WCO is more a passing run and gun type of offense. I dont think that PC would have liked or let that happen. I believe that he would have demanded a running attack no matter what as it breeds total control of the ball. Time of Possession is controlled by keeping the clock running and running plays have a better chance of doing just that. Dink and dunk plays help in that regard but are risky I think he would say.

The rest of the post is great stuff...Kudos.

Click to expand...

Some revisionist history here. First, the current Seahawks don't really run a true WCO. Second, Bill Walsh wasn't a passing run and gun at all. True, he was a genius at creating open receivers, but he relied on the run game, and his running backs as much as Pete.

For instance, in the 1984 SB winning season, the 49ers were 3rd in the league in rushing yards and 6th in attempts, and 4th in the league in passing yards, and 16th in attempts.

Their leading running back was Wendell Tyler, and their backup was a young Roger Craig. Tyler had 1,262 yards with a 5.1 ypa! Craig was, however, their leading receiver with 71 catches.

In 1988, another SB winning year under Walsh, they again were a top rushing team, at #2 in the league and 7th in the league in attempts, with the passing game coming in at #10 in total yards, and #15 in total attempts.

That year, Roger Craig was their leading RB with 1,502 yards and a 4.8 ypa. He was again the leading receiver (yes, over Jerry Rice) with 76 receptions. Of note, Roger Craig, while leading the team in total receptions only gained 7 ypr, while Jerry Rice (64 receptions) gained over 20 ypr, and John Taylor at over 23 ypr.

Seems to me, Pete and Shotty totally have the right WCO winning formula, with the exception of not utilizing the RB in the passing game enough. Maybe that's the next part of the formula to show itself.

*
*
As an aside, it's interesting to take a look at the following year, 1989, under first-year HC George Siefert and again a SB winning team. He flipped things a bit. The 49ers were #1 in total offense, and #2 in total passing yards, but only #20 in total passing attempts. They were also way down in total rushing yards at #10 in the league and #13 in rushing attempts.

The leading rusher that year was again, Roger Craig, but he dropped in carries and total yards. Jerry Rice became the leader in receptions (82) and total yards (1,483), with Roger Craig dropping all the way to 4th, with the FB, Tom Rathman overtaking Craig as the leading RB receiver.

Click to expand...

I HATE STATISTICS.....that said..I can appreciate these. In 1984, I was unavailable. So these bring to light what the OP means. Thank you. I appreciate the ground work.

I'm tellin' ya, we're running the table and going 11-5. Maker my words!

Seahawkfan80":189msal0 said:

Jazzhawk":189msal0 said:

Some revisionist history here. First, the current Seahawks don't really run a true WCO. Second, Bill Walsh wasn't a passing run and gun at all. True, he was a genius at creating open receivers, but he relied on the run game, and his running backs as much as Pete.

For instance, in the 1984 SB winning season, the 49ers were 3rd in the league in rushing yards and 6th in attempts, and 4th in the league in passing yards, and 16th in attempts.

Their leading running back was Wendell Tyler, and their backup was a young Roger Craig. Tyler had 1,262 yards with a 5.1 ypa! Craig was, however, their leading receiver with 71 catches.

In 1988, another SB winning year under Walsh, they again were a top rushing team, at #2 in the league and 7th in the league in attempts, with the passing game coming in at #10 in total yards, and #15 in total attempts.

That year, Roger Craig was their leading RB with 1,502 yards and a 4.8 ypa. He was again the leading receiver (yes, over Jerry Rice) with 76 receptions. Of note, Roger Craig, while leading the team in total receptions only gained 7 ypr, while Jerry Rice (64 receptions) gained over 20 ypr, and John Taylor at over 23 ypr.

Seems to me, Pete and Shotty totally have the right WCO winning formula, with the exception of not utilizing the RB in the passing game enough. Maybe that's the next part of the formula to show itself.

*
*
As an aside, it's interesting to take a look at the following year, 1989, under first-year HC George Siefert and again a SB winning team. He flipped things a bit. The 49ers were #1 in total offense, and #2 in total passing yards, but only #20 in total passing attempts. They were also way down in total rushing yards at #10 in the league and #13 in rushing attempts.

The leading rusher that year was again, Roger Craig, but he dropped in carries and total yards. Jerry Rice became the leader in receptions (82) and total yards (1,483), with Roger Craig dropping all the way to 4th, with the FB, Tom Rathman overtaking Craig as the leading RB receiver.

Click to expand...

I HATE STATISTICS.....that said..I can appreciate these. In 1984, I was unavailable. So these bring to light what the OP means. Thank you. I appreciate the ground work.

Click to expand...

I understand. Mostly I'm using them to show my point. I grew up near Sacramento and was a huge 49ers fan till I moved up to the Seattle area 20 years ago, so I followed them quite closely, right up till the league forced DeBartolo out as owner and put in the idiotic York family.

I happen to be moving back there at the end of the month, but I'm staying a Seahawks fan and keeping my season tickets going.

Jazzhawk":25q3y24t said:

Seahawkfan80":25q3y24t said:

Jazzhawk":25q3y24t said:

Some revisionist history here. First, the current Seahawks don't really run a true WCO. Second, Bill Walsh wasn't a passing run and gun at all. True, he was a genius at creating open receivers, but he relied on the run game, and his running backs as much as Pete.

For instance, in the 1984 SB winning season, the 49ers were 3rd in the league in rushing yards and 6th in attempts, and 4th in the league in passing yards, and 16th in attempts.

Their leading running back was Wendell Tyler, and their backup was a young Roger Craig. Tyler had 1,262 yards with a 5.1 ypa! Craig was, however, their leading receiver with 71 catches.

In 1988, another SB winning year under Walsh, they again were a top rushing team, at #2 in the league and 7th in the league in attempts, with the passing game coming in at #10 in total yards, and #15 in total attempts.

That year, Roger Craig was their leading RB with 1,502 yards and a 4.8 ypa. He was again the leading receiver (yes, over Jerry Rice) with 76 receptions. Of note, Roger Craig, while leading the team in total receptions only gained 7 ypr, while Jerry Rice (64 receptions) gained over 20 ypr, and John Taylor at over 23 ypr.

Seems to me, Pete and Shotty totally have the right WCO winning formula, with the exception of not utilizing the RB in the passing game enough. Maybe that's the next part of the formula to show itself.

*
*
As an aside, it's interesting to take a look at the following year, 1989, under first-year HC George Siefert and again a SB winning team. He flipped things a bit. The 49ers were #1 in total offense, and #2 in total passing yards, but only #20 in total passing attempts. They were also way down in total rushing yards at #10 in the league and #13 in rushing attempts.

The leading rusher that year was again, Roger Craig, but he dropped in carries and total yards. Jerry Rice became the leader in receptions (82) and total yards (1,483), with Roger Craig dropping all the way to 4th, with the FB, Tom Rathman overtaking Craig as the leading RB receiver.

Click to expand...

I HATE STATISTICS.....that said..I can appreciate these. In 1984, I was unavailable. So these bring to light what the OP means. Thank you. I appreciate the ground work.

Click to expand...

I understand. Mostly I'm using them to show my point. I grew up near Sacramento and was a huge 49ers fan till I moved up to the Seattle area 20 years ago, so I followed them quite closely, right up till the league forced DeBartolo out as owner and put in the idiotic York family.

I happen to be moving back there at the end of the month, but I'm staying a Seahawks fan and keeping my season tickets going.

Click to expand...

I like the York family right where they were...are...uh um...Yanno. :stirthepot: :twisted: :twisted:

The Cowboys went 13-3 a couple years ago with one of the most dominant running games in history and a rookie 4th round QB to boot. The Hawks have a dominant running game and a young defense with a better QB. The Hawks have taken their lumps but are ready to put it all together for the stretch. The Panthers and Vikings games are critical NFC match ups. These next two weeks will determine if the Hawks are a contender.

I enjoyed the original post. Well done sir. :2thumbs:

I really like this team. Max kudos to the running game.
We are built for a run.
The D is still a work in progress. It will take another off season to regain form.

LudwigsDrummer":2qirfley said:

I really like this team. Max kudos to the running game.
We are built for a run.
The D is still a work in progress. It will take another off season to regain form.

Click to expand...

2nd line is almost a repeat of the first line.

Wow. What a great read. A good post from you as usual. I like the Dolphins comparison, but will nitpick a bit. Carson is much faster than Csonka was. Man was he slow. but yeah both effective power runners. I would also say Davis is a fair bit slower than Mercury Morris. That dude was insanely fast and the moves he could put on. I would liken him more to Penny. Lockett does look a lot like their wideout. Anyway cool. Yeah. They were something to watch. Griese had some Wilson like qualties.

I like the overall perspective of your post walking us through the different Assistant coaches. Yes. Pete figured out this is a good time to get some big dudes and run it down the throat of these new era defenses. It's been fun to watch guys like Ndamakong Suh get knocked on their ass. Great stuff. Thanks,

Football has always run in cycles. I remember the run and shoot era of the early 90's teams countered by going 3-4 with light players all over the place. Then the Cowboys and Packers came along with big olines and just pushed around the lighter Dlines. The same thing has happened in today's NFL DE can weigh 260 pounds and still be effective. How to you take Von Miller out of the game? You run at him and hit him with 700 pounds of human every play, by the 4th QTR he will not be the same player.

The money ball or Pete ball aspect of this is now the Seahawks are looking for players that no other team is looking for. I think they are going to let Fluker walk if he wants too much money (injury risk being the main reason) They will be able to bring in players like Fluker who doesn't fit in pass-happy offense but will thrive in the Seahawks system. Don't forget the Seahawks will be adding a second draft of Mike Solari linemen too. Money ball Pete Ball is about finding the hidden value and I think the Seahawks got that going right now.

capncrunch":w7in9ebu said:

Wow. What a great read. A good post from you as usual. I like the Dolphins comparison, but will nitpick a bit. Carson is much faster than Csonka was. Man was he slow. but yeah both effective power runners. I would also say Davis is a fair bit slower than Mercury Morris. That dude was insanely fast and the moves he could put on. I would liken him more to Penny. Lockett does look a lot like their wideout. Anyway cool. Yeah. They were something to watch. Griese had some Wilson like qualties.

I like the overall perspective of your post walking us through the different Assistant coaches. Yes. Pete figured out this is a good time to get some big dudes and run it down the throat of these new era defenses. It's been fun to watch guys like Ndamakong Suh get knocked on their ass. Great stuff. Thanks,

Click to expand...

Czonka had more power, Carson is more physical in a weird sense of angry physical deliverying hits as he hits. Morris was faster but Davis I think has a better lateral quickness and darting style, Kiick was the forgotton guy by many, Penny was also the forgotton guy here, for a little while


All six are a bit different it in absolute styles, Penny is just smooth, much like Walter Payton was, I would like him to learn to finish runs like Walter did. Edit to add thinking about it he has a lot of OJ Simpson look to him but not the long strider OJ was.


Czonka would just kinda walk thru the line lowered his pads and inflict punishment as more and more guys piled on him he had some powerful legs and leg drive.